Anderson's defense

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Originally Posted by ElNono

It's basketball 101 and playing the odds. This is pro ball, if you want to take the ball away from a player, you double team.

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And if you want to prevent a shot, you hard-close. Those two ideas have the same logic.

You close out and contest or you close out and give room. Depends if you want the guy to drive or shoot.

This is very basic stuff. If you want you break it down in further categories, then more power to you, but frankly, IMO, it's useless.

Pop is not wrong. You need to stay on your guy and on the play. If he hits the shot over your extended arm, you tip your hat and move on to the next play.

Your argument about the effectiveness of your theory and breakdowns is cool, I guess, I'd just like to see a league wide stat tracking that as opposed of your eyeball test. Frankly, a lot of this is covered in tendencies under scouting reports. Don't think for a second Ray Allen didn't know Danny loves to do the flyby close outs.

:lol anyways, I don't think we'll ever agree on this stuff. That's alright, don't want to turn this into another long winded argument. We traveled that road before. :toast

Manu is losing every time he pump fakes? He wants you to jump for the 5vs4 . Come on Chinook you're better than this.

Stay on your feet so you can recover and track your man.

Sean and bill probably discuss it about twice a game on the proper close-out.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You close out and contest or you close out and give room. Depends if you want the guy to drive or shoot.

This is very basic stuff. If you want you break it down in further categories, then more power to you, but frankly, IMO, it's useless.

Pop is not wrong. You need to stay on your guy and on the play. If he hits the shot over your extended arm, you tip your hat and move on to the next play.

Your argument about the effectiveness of your theory and breakdowns is cool, I guess, I'd just like to see a league wide stat tracking that as opposed of your eyeball test. Frankly, a lot of this is covered in tendencies under scouting reports. Don't think for a second Ray Allen didn't know Danny loves to do the flyby close outs.

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THIS

very simple stuff .

All close outs are "hard" or at full speed with the defender sprinting to the offensive player. The defender (in full sprint) aims to get as close to the players chest as possible with a hand up in time to contest the jumper whilst chopping his steps in the final moments to slow momentum in order to defend against the dribble drive (Bruce Bowen did this perfectly) . Occasionally you want the player to shoot in which case you close to give room to allow for the shot and protect against the drive.

At no point however do you want to take yourself out of the play thus allowing both the drive / shoot options.

Chinook, When Danny is running full speed and flys by the shooter on his close out he is not using a special defensive skill or tactic like you imply. This is a bad defensive habit that takes himself out of the play and goes against what all coaches teach.

nono and chinook talking about closeouts? is this 2013?

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Marco is playing into people's hands when he does that. If he "pump-fakes", he's already lost. His man didn't want him to shoot that shot in the first place, so Marco is just playing into his hands. As Seventyniner pointed out in another thread, not all shots from the same spots are created equal. It's much easier to make any shot when it's assisted and in rhythm than it is to make it when you have to do anything else, whether than's dribble, drive or simply reset your motion. Are some players good enough to make a high percentage or resets? Yes. Are most? No.

As far as drives go, as I mentioned, that's not nearly exclusive to hard-closes. Any time you're running toward a player, you're out of position. The difference is, when you're hard closing, the defense already knows it's going to have to rotate. Duncan doesn't have to wait for Danny's man to start moving, since he knows Danny is going to leave that lane open.

I'm very confident that the numbers will support my stance if someone has compiled them for other samples, but obviously, I don't have them. We'll have to agree to disagree indeed. I think Anderson is doing what's best for him, but by no means would I want Danny doing the same.

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YO
You lot me a long time ago. I respect you trying to explain your point of view, but the pump fake is one of the best plays in BBall to get free. Its a tactic many offensive players use, and most guys who are out there to put points on the board, have a midrange shot, can pass in traffic, etc. Like I said, you won't convince me the blow by is better than closing out under control and staying in the play. Of course, if you are not good enough to close by under control, then by all means blow by, since its better than fouling, but it will never be better for me than closing out while staying within the play.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You close out and contest or you close out and give room. Depends if you want the guy to drive or shoot.

This is very basic stuff. If you want you break it down in further categories, then more power to you, but frankly, IMO, it's useless.

Pop is not wrong. You need to stay on your guy and on the play. If he hits the shot over your extended arm, you tip your hat and move on to the next play.

Your argument about the effectiveness of your theory and breakdowns is cool, I guess, I'd just like to see a league wide stat tracking that as opposed of your eyeball test. Frankly, a lot of this is covered in tendencies under scouting reports. Don't think for a second Ray Allen didn't know Danny loves to do the flyby close outs.

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Originally Posted by ceds

THIS

very simple stuff .

All close outs are "hard" or at full speed with the defender sprinting to the offensive player. You close to contest by aiming to get as close to the players chest with a hand up in time to contest the jumper whilst chopping your steps in the final moments to slow momentum so you can defend against the dribble drive (Bruce Bowen did this perfectly) . Occasionally you want the player to shoot in which case you close to give room to allow for the shot and protect against the drive.
??
At no point however do you want to take yourself out of the play thus allowing both the drive / shoot options.

Chinook, When Danny is running full speed and flys by the shooter on his close out he is not using a special defensive skill or tactic like you imply. This is a bad defensive habit that takes himself out of the play and goes against what all coaches teach.

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Agree with you both. I don't think Pop will be advising Kyle to start closing out and blowing by guys getting out of the play. Its probably one of the things that still gets him upset about Danny's blow by's. I didn't know I was touching on an epic issue.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Marco is playing into people's hands when he does that. If he "pump-fakes", he's already lost. His man didn't want him to shoot that shot in the first place, so Marco is just playing into his hands. As Seventyniner pointed out in another thread, not all shots from the same spots are created equal. It's much easier to make any shot when it's assisted and in rhythm than it is to make it when you have to do anything else, whether than's dribble, drive or simply reset your motion. Are some players good enough to make a high percentage or resets? Yes. Are most? No.

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This doesn't take into account the pressure of an incoming defender regardless if he's way far out or not. Shooters will almost and always try to find the best open shot with the least amount of pressure..Ask any shooter and they will tell you, they'd rather not see anyone running towards them.

I don't have the numbers myself, but i would assume since you're making this claim you'd back it up with numbers...right now, it's perfectly logical to think from a shooters stand point, if there is a risk of a good contest, you fake and shoot.

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Originally Posted by 2ndPFGOAT

SAGirl

if the pumpfake is the best play to use to get free from ur defender, explain why it never worked for the pumpfake master malik rose?

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I didn't read SA girls post, but the best shots are ALMOST always assisted. I was responding to the idea that everytime you pump and fake you're falling into the defenders hand. I disagree.

What about his offense? Can we try him playing pg for us instead porker in the starting lineup? This way you hide him alongside two good defenders... And it also can do good for porker being a sixth man and let him hero ball against second units...

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Originally Posted by Wildcat67

He actually hasn't been a liability at all out there, even go as far to say a he's been above average. His ability to use his length as a cushion and intelligence to position himself well compensates well for his lack of foot speed (which I feel is overblown due to his nickname).

Anyone else get this impression as well? Obviously against LeBron or some of the more athletic SF in the league he may struggle some but playing against bench guys shouldn't be a huge issue.

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No surprise. Anderson is finally using his length to his advantage (7'3" wingspan). I notice how he NEVER let his arms down in the Rockets game. It reminded me of Bowen like defense (not saying he's Bowen at all) in how Bowen never dropped his hands while playing D, something Green still needs to learn at time.

I was impressed how he guarded Beverly quite a few times and didn't let him penetrate to the basket. His arm length gave him fits.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

This doesn't take into account the pressure of an incoming defender regardless if he's way far out or not. Shooters will almost and always try to find the best open shot with the least amount of pressure..Ask any shooter and they will tell you, they'd rather not see anyone running towards them.

I don't have the numbers myself, but i would assume since you're making this claim you'd back it up with numbers...right now, it's perfectly logical to think from a shooters stand point, if there is a risk of a good contest, you fake and shoot.

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In the Thunder series, hard-closes allowed .837 points per possession, while soft-closes allowed 1.336. And before anyone tries to argue about sample size, the chi-square p-value for the stats was 0.004142488, meaning there's a less than a one-half-of-one-percent chance those numbers were accidental. We can argue about whether or not there was something special about that series that caused hard-closes to be super effective, but there's no question that they WERE super effective, Pop's opinion on them be damned.

I think you guys are missing the point when it comes to shooters. Holding the ball drops the expected field-goal percentage, regardless of defensive pressure. You all have no problem understanding this when Tim gets an elbow jumper and stares at the rim for a couple of seconds before shooting. We know it's a bad thing to hesitate. So I'm finding it hard to see why so many people think that resetting somehow doesn't make a worse shot. Basketball is a game of rhythm, and knocking a guy off his by forcing him to pump fake or dribble is akin to getting two hands in his face. Add in that hard-closes are much safer plays, and you get an understanding of why it's a superior strategy.

Even if guys were just as good at hitting shots after a reset or escape-dribble, it still affects expected points allowed. Marco goes from a contested three to an open long-two after a pump-fake and escape-dribble. He shot 46 percent on long-twos last season (.92ppp). By contrast, he shot 34 percent on threes with defenders within six feet of him (1.02ppp). I wouldn't consider this definitive, because not all of those long-twos were open and not all of those threes were really contested. But the idea is the same. And that doesn't factor in fouling and how soft-closes are more prone to that than hard closes.

The biggest misconception is that Danny is "falling" for the pump fake. He isn't. He's not trying to block the shot, which is why he's moving away from the man and doesn't have his hand in fouling position. Does Green have a history of falling for some fakes, yes. The 2014 Finals showed that. But the numbers on close-outs are striking, and in my opinion, they completely override this "obviously what Danny is doing is bad defense" attitude so many people have.

I only saw the Rockets game, but it confirmed some thoughts about Anderson on defense. Because of his slowness, he's gonna get left behind on picks and that will leave a 3pt shooter pretty much alone outside the arc. He tries to catch up by lunging forward to the shooter in order to use his length to defend, but when he's coming from 6 to 10 feet away a good shooter isn't gonna be bothered by him too much because the length is being used more horizontally to close than vertically to block.

He also uses this technique when he plays off his man so far.

I fear that he may also get faked out a lot with that lunging technique. He may chase the guy off the line, but they can just drive by his outstretched body into the lane.

They will work with him for sure to establish a defensive posture that will pass muster at this level. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

I only saw the Rockets game, but it confirmed some thoughts about Anderson on defense. Because of his slowness, he's gonna get left behind on picks and that will leave a 3pt shooter pretty much alone outside the arc. He tries to catch up by lunging forward to the shooter in order to use his length to defend, but when he's coming from 6 to 10 feet away a good shooter isn't gonna be bothered by him too much because the length is being used more horizontally to close than vertically to block.

He also uses this technique when he plays off his man so far.

I fear that he may also get faked out a lot with that lunging technique. He may chase the guy off the line, but they can just drive by his outstretched body into the lane.

They will work with him for sure to establish a defensive posture that will pass muster at this level. We'll see.

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He actually doesn't or hasn't so far bit on fakes, TBH. Not once have I seen that this preseason, but it is possible that in closing out he's not fast enough. I have seen him be mostly adequate, but its something to watch out for. He actually does a good job going under or over picks depending on what they are doing. In no way is he out of the play completely, he's either forcing a guy into the rim protector like he should, or he's going under a pick on a guy like Brewer for example. In comparison, guys that are very athletic like Simmons get caught on picks completely and taken out of plays and are often faked out, hit with backcuts and stuff like that and are out of position. Just proves defense is more than just athleticism.