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Green has been garbage so far this year. If he is not consistently hitting the 3, he is a Bonner-esque liability. Simmons can at least dribble at a high school level without keystone copping into turnovers.
I like Simmons ability to get the rim, draw fouls and create offense. Green should be a situational defender at best in this rotation.
Yes. Danny Green has completely and utterly shit the bed this season after getting paid a decent amount of money. Right now, it looks like we've overpaid for him. His offense ain't any better than Bowen's at this stage of the season and he's a worse defender than Bruce man on man, yet we're paying him over double what the Spurs paid Bowen. That's a fucking insult to Bruce.
Simmons can get to the rim and he's a better passer than Danny. My goodness, Danny is a such a shit passer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
No. Green either figures it out or we are done.
Simmons would foul out in 1 quarter, tbh:lol..they should probably start Kyle, though, do something to light a fire under Green like in 2014, I suppose..
If this is the real Green, then the Spurs aren't even close to a contender, unfortunately..
Green would probably play better with the bench seeing as it's more open and less dribble dribble, iso.
Then Manu and Tim should just retire now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan89
That's the way it looks, but he also needs more court time to see if he can correct his fouling on the defensive end. He's not going to get that experience sitting on the bench. Start him against the Lakers and see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
I keep thinking hes gonna come around but now hes passing up 3s driving and just fcking up
Yes, just for the fact that we wouldnt have to start off the game watching him stink up the joint being useless. I'm at a point where I can't stand watching him on the court now...he's THAT garbage! And I've always been a "Danny is severely underrated" guy but him being limited is REALLY being exposed.
If they're going to bench Green, starting Anderson is a no-brainer, he's much better than Simmons..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice009
yep. literally making me rage. Like why would he think that is a good option? Boban has better handles than this nigga.Quote:
Originally Posted by slick'81
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
Danny never was a true starter.
It's unnerving, but I think Pop is just letting him figure it out. If there's a time to do it, it's now. He'll keep starting and hopefully he can regain his touch from downtown... a shot of confidence would work great for him.
Let's be real here...at this point its so bad that their are NO positive expectations or results when Danny touches the ball...think about that for a second when you can say that about a primary STARTING rotation player on a NIGHTLY!
Yes. I've said so for the last few games. Let Danny play with the second team until he finds his shot again.
DG sucks he is the new bad Porker, only wants uncontested shots looks like Matty B, Simmons at least is giving his all like Patty was vs TP a few seasons ago.
DG passing blows, his defense is totally overrated and his athletism sucks he looks like he has just finished a long masturbation marathon every time he is on court.
I'd give green 2-3 weeks off to get his brain back. His problems are all mental. Meanwhile Simmons gets time to develop and is better if Green is still a scrub when he returns.
i remember him going into the paint, late in the game, and he fumbled it and it went out of bounds off torontoQuote:
Originally Posted by keeferob25
i remember feeling RELIEF at the outcome, like "that went better than i expected!"
lol. I thought the exact same thing on that play. I thought, wow, that turned out pretty good. Meanwhile, Danny was looking for the foul like he was a James Harden type of player and coming off like - I don't lose the ball unless I was fouled.Quote:
Originally Posted by weeks
EXACTLY! A favorable result from Green is when it isn't a turnover fastbreak or a long rebound fastbreak for the other team off of one of his many season-long clankers. All for the hometown discount of 11 million a year smhQuote:
Originally Posted by weeks
Trade Green tbh... dude is garbage now. If we do it now we might be able to get some kind of value out of it.
Ok. Enough with the madness. We are 18-5. 2nd place in league! Relax. Trading green is madness.
The bench plays a very chaotic style that involves a lot of passing and cutting and reads on defense by everybody and all 3 perimeter players put the ball on the floor, cut, relocate and screen for each other. Danny has been very poor in that setting. His decision making and increased desire to drive has had bad results with the bench, since Manu is already TO prone, and lately so has been Patty. Adding Danny to that lineup is like gasoline to the fire. It will look like the Wiz game, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by NASpurs
Danny's better with the starters or should be, since they need his defense, and the spacing his 3 pt shooting provides. He is just putting the ball on the floor way too much with very bad results.
Simmons should be better off the bench, since his slashing, easy transition basket chase, his nice passing ability is best suited to the bench style.
Anderson could play with both units. He's unlikely to make mistakes and he's a nice passer, and an unselfish player. Would be perfect for the SL since they already have too many guys that need to be fed shots. He can't defend quickie guards which is Danny's task and there you have the catch 22.
Green is a torta eater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikoluna
^This. Simmons has potential but isn't ready to be a starter at this point. He turns the ball over and commits bad fouls way too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
^Also this. Without the Green that we used to know, we don't stand a chance against the Warriors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan89
Simmons over Anderson if it comes to it. Simmons isn't a great for next to manu with his smaller size and length, compared to Anderson well wound be better against the bigger sfs in the league.
If anything, the move I'd rather see is Green still in the starting lineup, but replacing Mills with Simmons and use Manu as the ball handler. Patty has not had a good year to my eyes, and they need to be able to go big at the point to compete with Golden State for stretches.
Spurs will need his defense more than offense against Warriors. Give him time to get his shot back.
Man the pass of the dribble turnover was a killer down the stretch.
lol spurfan groupthink is fun.
I'm starting to see it as torture.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
So how many of you think he is worth the max now. I told you Green was worth only around 7-8 mil a year. He is still a good defender but he is a liability on offense. Guys like that are worth what Ariza, Reddick's, etc in world are making.
The problem is Kawhi and LMA. Now that he isn't just sitting in the corner waiting for 3's, Kawhi working the perimeter crowds Green space. Green needs to sit on the corner 3 more like Bowen did. His favorite spots are the wing, but Kawhi and LMA both like working the high post which puts a bottleneck into Green's play. If need would just rotate more to the corner and stay there, he would get a lot more open 3 point looks.
Yes, he should go to the bench. You can give Simmons, Butler, Anderson and even McCallum chances to see what they can do. He needs a change of pace.
That said, he's dribbling more because Pop wants him to. I imagine he's trying to figure out a way to make Green more of a threat with the ball so teams can't just rest players on him. Against the Warriors, people want Parker to play well so Steph has to work, but Curry will be on Green, so it won't matter what Parker does. Danny's going to have to force Curry to play defense, so sitting in a corner is not really an option.
Green would probably get more open looks with the 2nd unit, that's what he needs. But I don't see it happening. He just needs to figure it out and for the love of God stop dribbling. Nothing good ever happens when he dribbles. It's either a floater that misses the rim or a turnover.
LMAO at this thread and its Spurfans Anonymous self-help group.
Everybody needs to calm the fuck down. Green is trying to expand his game and it's going to take time...and now is the time to work on it. His shot always comes and goes...but when he's hot he's one of the best. Tbh Spurs just hope he's hot come postseason...but Green best asset is his defense and guarding Westbrook/Curry type of players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
Yeah, that TO at the end of the game yesterday left me in a Zen moment. I wasn't upset but I was like, WTF is Green doing.
LOL Spurs fans thinking
DG>>>Bowen:lol
DG>>>Capt Jack:lol
DG>>>Memorial Day:lol
DG>>>Finley:lol
DG>>>Klay Thompson(Harlem):lol
DG>>>Ariza:lol
DG>>>Reddick:lol
DG>>>Jeremy Lamb:lol
DG>>>Oladipo:lol
DG Top 5 SG:lol
lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan89
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
Part of the issue is the new offense, but Greens shot appears to be broken to boot. He's clanking a lot of open looks that he ordinarily drains.
He's also the worst passer on the team. When he gets the ball he needs to be doing one thing, and one thing only.
Ah and here is the rub TP cannot guard the quickie guards, they are the biggest threat to our defense for the last few years, the Monte Ellis, B Westbrook quick penetration has been our Achilles heel and starting Fathead might only make that worse, not against most teams but against some it would be fatal.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
i wonder if they can incorporate running him off of a bunch of screens much like Patty or TP. Youre right about camping him in the corner though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
His game is clearly regressing, and his shot has been off like a full year, last December Manu was the one giving his all in a hard schedule DG is just a role player and people should be asking him to do 3&D, because you are incorporating new tricks to the bag it doesnt mean you now suddenly suck at everything you already know.Quote:
Originally Posted by coachmac87
I was one of the few users here saying DG was not a 10 mil/year player, what most guys dont understand is DG never had big aspirations in BB he was trash in Cleveland, waived and Spurs took him to his limits he had his peak in 14 and now after a championship and getting $ he is not worthy the time to get back to mediocrity has come.
Dude is not mentally or physically prepared to be more than a role player, by the way... you cant just expect uncontested shots just all the time, WTF is that?
What does Green's performance this year have to do with what he was worth in past years? That's like saying Aldridge isn't worth anywhere near his money, because of how he's played this season:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
He shot 42% from 3 last year and was huge last December, actually..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeanaro
No. Dude set a franchise record for made threes last season, and he was a top two SG in fantasy production. Dude was playing like a $15 Million player last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeanaro
Figure what out? The guy is simply missing shots.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
i wouldn't say he should start at this juncture but i definitely wanna see him get more playing time. he needs it.
Funny how even the media proclaimed demigod Curry shifts to the less active G on defense, but I am sure he isn't roasted for it on Dubs boards like TP is over here. I guess it happens. Blair was the whipping boy for a spell, the Parker but now it seems to be moving towards LMA and Verde. I guess no matter how cool the class, there has to be one whipping boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Because Warriors don't really have anyone to shift Parker on. He'll be shifted onto Barnes but will still get torched.Quote:
Originally Posted by $pursDynasty
This is based off past performances. The reasons I gave were all the reasons shown this year. He can't dribble, can't create his own shot, he just a decent passer. Basically all he has shown he can do is play very good defense and hit the 3 ball when teams collapse on the Spurs players in the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
If you think a player is worth 10-15 mil with this attributes, that is crazy.
I still think he is only worth 8 mil a year max. And this was before this year's performance. Now that teams are playing him tighter, he is showing just how effective he is offensively. Guys like Klay and Hayward and such can at least hit contested shots and create their own shots.
I still like Green and think he is vital for the Spurs to get pass GS. But I am not one of those people that overvalued his worth or said he was better than Bowen.
Mikeanaro with the PtR take of the thread tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeanaro
No
He's been really bad and I'm worried about whether this means anything or not but he needs to start. It's too early to hit the panic button.
Bowen would look the same in today's league where they take away your corner 3s, tbh:lol..he had all the same flaws as Green, offensively, but he was even more exploitable since he was only able to shoot from 2 spots on the court(at a time where teams didn't take away corner 3s, yet)..Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Teams aren't playing Green differently..that's just silly, he's been a starter on a perennial contender for 4 years, opposing teams didn't figure out that he can't dribble, all of a sudden..he's not the primary focus of the defense on a team with Aldridge/Kawhi/Parker/Duncan in the same unit..he's literally getting nearly the same number of wide open 3s as he always has, he's just missing them..
Having an atrocious start to the season doesn't change the fact that he had Draymond Green-level impact, last year, according to virtually all metrics..
Couldn't have said it better :toastQuote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
lol talking about spurfan groupthink is fun.
Go make up another political forum lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by hater
I just remember him sucking and Manu hurting his 40 year old scrotum to make Spurs win, while Danny was talking few shots and preparing to shine...Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
1/12 5 points 1/9 , 3pt 1/5 Won
3/12 20 points 7/14 , 3pt 6/11 Lost OT
5/12 16 points 6/10 , 3pt 4/5 Won
6/12 11 points 4/9 , 3pt 1/4 Won
9/12 13 points 6/10 , 3pt 1/5 Lost
10/12 13 points 3/10 , 3pt 1/6 Won
12/12 19 points 7/14, 3pt 5/9 Lost OT
14/12 5 points 2/7 , 3pt 1/4 Won
15/12 12 points 5/11 ,3pt 2/4 Lost
17/12 25 points 9/17 ,3pt 7/13 Lost 3 OT
19/12 27 points 9/21, 3pt 6/9 Lost 3 OT
20/12 DNP Lost
22/12 11 points 3/5 , 3pt 3/5 Won
25/12 12 points 4/13, 3pt 2/8 Lost
26/12 8 points 3/10, 3pt 2/4 Lost
28/12 24 points 6/13, 3pt 3/9 Won
30/12 7 points 3/11, 3pt 1/6 Lost
31/12 7 points 3/13, 3pt 0/8 Won
We lost more than we have won, and DG scored more because at times there was no TP (most of December) some other times there wasnt Kiwi (half December) and some times there werent both, but at the end of the day he is a poor´s man Gay Ray.
Why? is he any good now? Danny Groin needs uncontested shots like during workouts, you are a doctor so you know anyone having cats as pets is a retard... and anyone having snakes as pets is an introvert antisocial slow down brainless dummy.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDoctor
Yes.
At this point - yes. Need to do something to get him going.
Danny's a mystery right now... & it's not only shooting-- his steal and block numbers are down, and his turnovers are up. The problem with him is he has to be paired with a ballhandler, because that's such a glaring weakness of his. So many other teams can rely on their SG to be a primary ballhandler at least some of the time during a game, but the Spurs can't do that with Green. I wonder if anything's going on in his personal life... last year Nick Batum had his worst year as a player & that was attributed to a nasty break up with his girlfriend... but he's had a great bounce back year with Charlotte. Maybe Green is going through something like that. Btw, Batum's a free agent after this season. I've thought of him as a possible Manu replacement because he's a ballhandler/passer (he had a triple double last night), but it'd be hard to make the money work. But the money could work if Green was traded for cheaper parts, like a back up PG or something like that.
Pretty much..hopefully it works out like it did in 2014 when he got benched for Marco, but his slump was nowhere near as bad as it is right now IIRC..Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny RIngo
I don't really see the Simmons fit in the SL unit, though, can't imagine him playing with that unit..it should be Anderson..
That was actually at the same point of the season back in 2013. I already posted a link to an article covering his slump circa 2013. He ended up getting injured in January (fractured metacarpal) then came back in February & finished strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
In that case, do you think Pop will just let him work through it or try someone else for a few games?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
I personally think Pop will let him work through it some more. Maybe his drives and PnP plays with LMA is him trying to make some kind of impact offensively to put some points on the board from his position and not come out empty.
It hasn't been enough though.
No, just bench him in favor of manu or simmons during key stretches if he can't come through. He can't be forced to distribute like he would off the bench.
Marco isn't walking through that door so starting Kyle/Simmons might cause spacing issues. Since it's a new system, Pop might let him try to work it out until the end of this month unless the offense suffers mightily. If the team keeps trucking, he will most likely stay in the lineup despite his struggles.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
Pops given him a longer leash than I would have ever expected..... I guess that comes with making real NBA money now though.
yes. I would start anyone on the roster ahead of Green. And why not? He's terrible
You're right. What if Green runs through a shit load of screens and makes Steph chase him ala Ray Allen? I don't know how we'll fix this, but making Green dribble is more cancerous to us than having Curry rest imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
The key with 3 pt shooting is that the 3 pt shooter has to be able to punish the double team. Danny is not doing that at the moment, but teams are still careful not to double off him and to close him out aggressively if they do. Danny not being able to do much when he gets closed out negates the whole point of the set, since it decreases the efficiency of the post up player passing the ball to him (gets no assist and no shots for himself), expends time on the shot clock, and ends up with a desperation heave by Danny or some other undesirable outcome. Danny's current offensive mess is a whole cancerous situation for the SL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
All he has to do is swing the ball on closeouts or step in for a 2 point shot just like Bowen instead of dribble penetrating, just making the defense scramble is a positive.:downspin:Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
People forget Bowen was able to do this. Bowen wasn't the best dribbler either but he had that side step 3/2 pt shot down. That is what Green needs to be working on. That in itself will keep defender from closing out to hard. But he take is all the way in the lane everytime he puts the ball down. That just isn't working for him at this point, probably won't in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
Adding to his outside shot selection would best serve Green going forward.
No, Green still offers gravity even if his shot isn't falling. Teams would ignore Simmons/Anderson making life more difficult for Kawhi and LaMarcus.
The last thing the Spurs need in their starting lineup is more long-twos. The Spurs need Green to attack, and for the most part, the results are better than people think. But the big difference between last year and this year is that Danny got a lot of foul calls on his drives last season. It makes almost no sense that Green is driving more than ever but getting the fewest FTA pg that he's had since becoming a rotation player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Officials are just not helping him out anymore. Maybe the refs have finally learned that he loses the ball so much on his own and to no bail him out. But it was an underrated part of his game that he could count on if he had to run off the line, and he still hasn't adjusted to the new paradigm. He's going to have to keep driving, though, even if he should just shoot the three more. The thing he has to focus on is just being decisive when he's approaching the rim. If he doesn't have a passing lane already established, he should just shoot it, shot-blockers be damned. Getting the ball swatted out of bounds is not as bad as giving up a live-ball TO.
They'd ignore those two up until they started scoring. That's how gravity gets established. That latency is why Green's gravity is larger than Kawhi's even though Leonard has been a superior shooter this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG_Spurs_Fan
Indeed, but no one seriously expects Anderson or Simmons to be able to start shooting the 3 like 2014/15 Green, so the spacing would suffer. Not to mention what Green offers defenisvely, which seems to be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
I doubt anyone but the most extreme Green haters thinks he should be benched permanently. He needs a jolt to get his head straight. Benching him is more about helping him find his way with a more open unit that it is about fixing the first unit. The starters will be awkward offensively so long as they rely on midrange jumpers, and that's not going to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG_Spurs_Fan
Recall Jimmer from D-League, replace Danny, position Jimmer farther away from the 3pt line to give more space for LMA..........
Dude, no Green driving DOES NOT help the Spurs. Just side step the defender and put up a jumper like Beli use to. But driving it all the way down in the lane and dishing it out to a defender is not helping the Spurs in the slightest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
.320 shooting and 2.0 APG over 1.4 TO a game shows otherwise. Green doesn't have the Ball Handles and Court Vision to do that. Just side step the defender and shoot. Guys like Kerr, Bowen Kersey, Bonner, etc made a killing in the Spurs system just doing just that. Green doesn't need to be all-world. Even Simmons is doing just this and he has better handles and passing abilities than Green. He side steps his defender. If he sees the help defender collapse on him hard, which they have because of his ability to get to the rim, he dishes it off to the open man immediately. Before, he was ducking his head and taking to the rim every time, which caused him to have A LOT of turnovers.
Get it through your head, Green will never come close to being Manu in driving and dishing. You are going to see more moments like the ones in the Raptors game, where he cost the Spurs the game, than he helps them win if he continues playing like this.
Green has been with the Spurs for 4 FUCKIN YEARS. His ceiling is almost capped by now. What you saw in the '14 Finals where he did drive and had some nice pull up J's is about as good as it is going to get for Green. Him being a bonafide playmaker is NEVER going to happen.
This is a good article. Green is still vital for the Spurs. But as the article notes, he is 3 and D player who makes hustle plays. Every team needs this type of player. Asking him to do more is setting him up for failure as we have seen this year.
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/...till-important
I just want to follow it up. Notice on that play where Green passes it off to Manu. He did it EARLY. That is why he needs to do consistently. If the shot is there, shoot it, but he he sees his man open, pass it. He had that TO and it woke Green up and he played very well for the last 1 minute of that game.
http://www.nba.com/games/20151209/SASTOR/gameinfo.html
But Green needs to stop taking it to the hole. 25-15 ft should be Green territory unless the Help defender COMPLETELY ignores him while he is driving. He showed this in the '14 finals as well. Green has shown he is a VERY EFFECTIVE player playing like this. Him trying to do more is just going to cost the Spurs in the long run.
Danny is getting open looks.
We need him to pass through this phase so he will hit big shots in the playoffs. I'm not sure that second team will get him on track.
I say pound the rock, it'll happen. GS is really going to have to die for people worried about HC. We are in a good place. The West is weaker so we can be patient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
It it would be fine if the help ignored him if he could just finish.
If Danny covered himself he would never score.
He's not good at shooting long twos off the dribble, and that shot sucks. You DON'T want him shooting it there. If he can't shoot the three and there's no driving lane, he should just pass it back out. Learning to shoot an inefficient shot isn't going to help him. Learning to shoot long-twos coming off screens is a different story, but we're not talking about that right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Green has had 24 turnovers with the ball in his hand against 46 assists. That's actually not a bad ratio. I'm sorry it doesn't fit you heuristically driven perception, but the problem with Green dribbling isn't that he turns it over a lot. His shooting percentages are just abysmal across the board right now, but he is usually pretty fine near the rim. It's just that his misses are so bad that people think he's worse that he is.Quote:
.320 shooting and 2.0 APG over 1.4 TO a game shows otherwise. Green doesn't have the Ball Handles and Court Vision to do that. Just side step the defender and shoot. Guys like Kerr, Bowen Kersey, Bonner, etc made a killing in the Spurs system just doing just that. Green doesn't need to be all-world. Even Simmons is doing just this and he has better handles and passing abilities than Green. He side steps his defender. If he sees the help defender collapse on him hard, which they have because of his ability to get to the rim, he dishes it off to the open man immediately. Before, he was ducking his head and taking to the rim every time, which caused him to have A LOT of turnovers.
These are just two hypocritical paragraphs. You want to talk about Green not being able to add anything to his game while saying he should add something to his game. The bigger issue is that you're completely mischaracterizing what I said. The reason why Green was pretty decent inside the arc last season and is awful this season is because he's not getting any foul calls. Those fouls helped offset his general inaccuracy in the paint. This season, the refs are swallowing the whistle on his misses. That's not to say the refs aren't right to do so. But it is a very noticeable difference.Quote:
Get it through your head, Green will never come close to being Manu in driving and dishing. You are going to see more moments like the ones in the Raptors game, where he cost the Spurs the game, than he helps them win if he continues playing like this.
Green has been with the Spurs for 4 FUCKIN YEARS. His ceiling is almost capped by now. What you saw in the '14 Finals where he did drive and had some nice pull up J's is about as good as it is going to get for Green. Him being a bonafide playmaker is NEVER going to happen.
The point is that the Spurs don't need Danny taking long-twos. Hell, they don't need ANYONE taking them, but LMA and Leonard live off them, so they'll have to take them. If Green can't shoot the three and can get to the rim, he needs to pass it out. A two-point shooting Green doesn't help the team at all. But the biggest problem with Green right now is that he can't seem to hit the threes he takes. We wouldn't be talking about him driving versus taking long-twos if he were shooting better.
And PtR sucks.
Danny would do a much better job covering Leonard than he would do covering himself. Green likes to help off his man a lot, and it's just not a good idea to do so against a shooter like Green is when he's on. With Leonard, he'd have to be engaged and would be on the ball a lot more. Against himself, he'd get burned quite a bit on open threes.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
As a defender on himself he would never have to leave himself. He could just run himself off the line and knock the ball away or block himself trying to finish. Covering KL, no such luck without help. Green could shut himself down easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
And you are, IMO, looking at stats for his ability to merely not make a mistake. It's clear he does not risk turning the ball over while dribbling as he immediately gives the ball up. The problem is the ability to create something with the ball is almost zero. This is a guard on a team who has an aging Tony Parker playing next to him. KL is much better with the ball in the open floor. So the set offense relies on Parker breaking down the D, and passes from the elbow with our tall, adept posts watching for cutters. This is where our easiest baskets come unless KL just goes off from 3 and then monster drives, or vice versa.
The Isos we now employ are still in the realm of Boris as the easiest. And this is second team stuff.
Green leaves Kyle Korver open. If the dude is just standing around, Danny's going to drift off him. It's just his nature. The dude managed to leave Jimmer Fredette open.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
CWS tried citing Green's stats to say he's a turnover machine when he drives. He's actually not according to his stats. But that doesn't make him a good play-maker. I know that. The Spurs need him to do more than just stand around, though. Pop doesn't seem to want Green to just be run off the line. There are passes that Green can make pretty well off the dribble, and there are some he should never really attempt. He'll be more efficient when he realizes that he's better off shooting that attempting a bad pass. Bonner's decisive on his drives, and that's what helps him succeed there. Green is still overthinking things.Quote:
And you are, IMO, looking at stats for his ability to merely not make a mistake. It's clear he does not risk turning the ball over while dribbling as he immediately gives the ball up.
This is where I disagree. Just shooting like 3-4x 20 ft jumpers a game will make teams play off of him more. The fact teams KNOW he isn't going to shoot this shot and the fact that they know he isn't great at finishing at the rim, they are going to give him this shot. Proved that you can hit it and teams are forced to play you differently. Manu does it, Kwahi does it, Parker does it, Mills does it, Beli did it while he was here. I see you point of not making a habit of it, but if don't shoot any period, teams are going to have that space to work with to defend you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Green is not hitting them because teams are running him off the line. And notice how he had the open 20 ft jumper but instead pass to Manu, which is a good play. But, the fact that teams know he is not going to shoot that shot, makes it much easier to defend him.
Green isn't James Harden. Green doesn't sell the fouls neither does he know how to draw fouls. On his drives, he is not getting fouled. Teams know he is not a great finisher at the rim so they play him straight up.
And as far as Green adding to his game, he has shown in previous seasons that he can hit the long 2. It's not my favorite shot either. But a 3 pt specialist needs to hit these so teams will play you softer on the 3 point line. It's like saying if a guy can't dribble with his left, make him go left. That is basically what teams are doing to Green at this point.
This. If he'll keep driving, maybe he should just go for the finish unless it's really safe to pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
That could help with the foul calling, putting more pressure on the defense.
Also, how would RA play defense against the starting SGs of the league?
It's perfectly fine for him to shoot pull-up twos if he thinks it's a good look. But that shouldn't be his plan if he's run off the line. There almost always has to be a better shot than a Green 17-footer off the dribble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Green's bad percentage on open looks isn't because he's being run off the llne. Danny was run off the line a lot last season, and his percentage was still acceptable.Quote:
Green is not hitting them because teams are running him off the line. And notice how he had the open 20 ft jumper but instead pass to Manu, which is a good play. But, the fact that teams know he is not going to shoot that shot, makes it much easier to defend him.
That sounds great, but unless you think teams JUST figured that out, it doesn't explain why Danny's FTA this season are much lower than at any point in his career as an actualized player.Quote:
Green isn't James Harden. Green doesn't sell the fouls neither does he know how to draw fouls. On his drives, he is not getting fouled. Teams know he is not a great finisher at the rim so they play him straight up.
Team's aren't making Green drive. He's choosing to drive if he feels like he has a lane. Simply put, Pop is not going to just sit there while Green makes mistake after mistake to the detriment of the team. He's driving because Pop wants him to. He wants Green to figure out how to score and when to pass or shoot. For numerous reasons, Danny parking on the perimeter and settling for long-twos when he's pressure is not workable against good teams. What Bowen did wouldn't be workable today.Quote:
And as far as Green adding to his game, he has shown in previous seasons that he can hit the long 2. It's not my favorite shot either. But a 3 pt specialist needs to hit these so teams will play you softer on the 3 point line. It's like saying if a guy can't dribble with his left, make him go left. That is basically what teams are doing to Green at this point.
If Danny can get back to his old level of three-point shooting while figuring a couple of go-to moves off the dribble, then this was more than worth it. The priority needs to be getting his shooting confidence back, though. That's why going to the bench would be a decent strategy. He will have open shots and wider driving lanes with the second unit. He can use it as a training ground, and Anderson/Simmons can use the temporary promotion as a way to gain valuable experience.
Your love affair w/ Danny is blinding you. The issue this season is that he's shooting floaters or aborting his drives & kicking it out. Last season he went to the hole & dump the ball off to Tim even if he still did abort his drives shoot floater occasionally. He was also stepping in & shooting 15 footers when defenders run at him if the bigs were sagging. This season he is insists on running PnRs w/ LMA & trying to kick it back to him by throwing jump passes or throwing up his shitty floaters when he drives too deep & realizes the bigs aren't going to step out of the paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
It would be better if he was getting his shot swatted out of bounds rather than his dumb turnovers right into the defenders hands or bricks which are basically the equivalent of live-ball turnovers. LoL @ Danny shooting long 2s being worse than the all the dumb shyt he's doing this season.
Some of this stuff is good analysis, honestly. But the premise isn't. Green shot 16.9 percent of his shots at the rim last season, compared to 14.4 percent this season. While there has been an increase in short-range shots, it doesn't account for a 50-percent drop-off in FTA. Last year, 83 percent of his turnovers were bad passes or lost balls. This year it's 75 percent. So he's not more turnover-prone when he drives so far this season. He's shooting a worse percentage near the rim, but he's shooting a worse percentage from everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
Again, people are being ignorant thinking that Danny is doing something different when he drives. He's in a slump there as much as he is at the arc, but he's not a walking disaster like folks are trying to suggest. He takes care of the ball better than you'd expect, and he's still shooting 50 percent. If he were shooting 40 percent on the threes he took, people would barely notice his driving.
I wish I had thought to say that...Quote:
It would be better if he was getting his shot swatted out of bounds rather than his dumb turnovers right into the defenders hands or bricks which are basically the equivalent of live-ball turnovers.
Missing long-twos is worse than missing layups. And even taking them is worse than driving, because it puts like zero pressure on the defense.Quote:
LoL @ Danny shooting long 2s being worse than the all the dumb shyt he's doing this season.
I agree with you in that the most valuable is for him to regain his 3 pt shot confidence and swagger. His counters are probably always going to be mediocre, but if he's shooting the 3 like we know he can, it doesn't matter. When he's not hitting his shots, then all the problems with his counters are magnified and become a sore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Neither Simms nor Anderson are the threats from 3 than Danny is. I believe Anderson can really shoot the 3, but he has a slow shot and is not confident shooting over close outs, so he passes out of shots a whole lot. Simms is unknown in terms of his shooting. I don't think he's even the 3 pt shooter Anderson is in an empty gym, but he's playing with more confidence than Anderson at the moment, which works to his advantage.
Pop did leave Simms in the Raptors game for longer than I thought he would, considering how strict he has been with Anderson. Simms racked up fouls quickly, and turned the ball over in a short stretch. Also, to be honest, I thought a couple of offensive fouls that were charged to the other team when Simms was running through screens easily could have been on Simms, as he doesn't negotiate screens well at all, and he's a tough guy who does push screeners away. They were 50/50 calls and they are not always going to go his way.
He has potential, but is still raw, so I don't see him as a starting level player. He's nowhere near the defender or shooter Danny is, and his driving is going to be nullified if he can't shoot the 3 as ppl will just sag off him. Right now, Simms is not being gameplanned for the way teams gameplan for Green. If we start Simms it could be worse than Danny is right now, as teams will just sag off him and draw charges as he wants to predictably drive.
Simms also strikes me as weakminded. He has talent, but he's looked scrubbish making bad decisions under pressure and playing wildly. Pop leaving him to play through mistakes, when he has been that much tougher on both ends with Anderson and Green at earlier times in his development, is I think Pop coddling him a little bit so as not to destroy the confidence he has gained.
Bottom line, Simms is still a developing player that Pop would rather not put ahead of Danny, so it will require a whole lot to go to Simms instead of Danny.
That said, Pop did go to Simms for longer stretches of time against the Raptors, and Danny played less minutes than he otherwise would have. I think Pop was testing Simms against Derozen, and Lowry to find out what he can do, and to coach him up. If the situation with Danny continues, we might see more minutes of Simms, less of Danny.
I don't see a Danny for Anderson swap. Anderson is SF quite simple, in size as well as skill. He can even play some small ball 4 quite well, and has been very good defending guys his size and the occassional quickie guard in switches, but to assign him to the quickest guys and more dangerous threats in the perimeter (Danny's assignments) might be a disaster, and yet who knows. Pop might experiment there too.
Benching Green isn't about improving the first unit. It needs Danny to reach its potential. It's about getting Danny to play up to his potential so the first unit can become a juggernaut. Other players have things to work on (LMA and Kawhi's chemistry and trying to fit Parker and Duncan into that dynamic). But they don't need Green to do that.
The added benefit is that Simmons and Anderson will gain some experience. Jonathon is talented enough to be a decent defender and he can at least do what Green is doing now offensively (brick threes and drive). He doesn't have Danny's gravity, but that's just better for him to develop.
Anderson would play the three and Kawhi would play the two. Kyle would get the worse wing to guard. He seems like a decent corner shooter now, so he can spot up there at the worst. The rebounding would be insane with Kyle, Leonard, LMA and Duncan. And there'd be nice help defense. I don't think it's a playoff-worthy lineup, but I wouldn't mind rolling it out against the majority of opponents.
And it's not like Danny wouldn't still be playing starter's minutes. He'd probably come in at the seven- or eight-minute mark and close out the quarter. Then he'd come back at the nine-minute mark of the second and play until the two- or three-minute mark. It would mean Kawhi wouldn't play as deep into the first, but that's probably a good thing anyway.
Hopefully Danny turns it around.
I agree with you it will be a good opportunity for Simmons or Anderson to grow, which will give Pop more guys to use for different situations.
Anderson's corner 3 might give him an advantage in that case, since he can really make that shot if he's left unguarded and the paint is clogged. He's hitting 50% on open 3s all from the corner. Small sample but he can hit it. He's not going to launch 3s like Danny or from Danny's spots, but an adjustment could be made to accommodate him at the corner.
I wonder what his percentage is when practicing. Does he kick ass and wonder why he can't do it during games or does he suck but think yeah I'm gonna roll with this anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
First off, he's attempting 15% of his shot b/w 3-16 ft at a 31% success rate (his attempts have gone up & his efficiency has gone down the drain esp. from 3-10 ft where he take his shitty floaters). His 46% at the rim & his 28% on his floaters are both WORST on the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
His turnover rate has also increased by 4% although his usage rate has decreased. (Kawhi's TOs rate has decreased w/ increased usage is only 7% compared to 14% for Danny)Quote:
Again, people are being ignorant thinking that Danny is doing something different when he drives. He's in a slump there as much as he is at the arc, but he's not a walking disaster like folks are trying to suggest. He takes care of the ball better than you'd expect, and he's still shooting 50 percent. If he were shooting 40 percent on the threes he took, people would barely notice his driving.
My point is instead of him driving into a crowd, he should pull up for a long two instead of throwing up a shitty float or turning the ball over. The best thing to do would be to swing the ball if defenders are running at him & get the defense scrambling.Quote:
Missing long-twos is worse than missing layups. And even taking them is worse than driving, because it puts like zero pressure on the defense.
That's the percentage of his total shots, not his FG% in those spots, just to be clear. His FG% at the rim this season is 46.2, while last year it was 58.4, the year before that it was 69.8 (and shots at the rim accounted for 12.5 percent of all his shots), which is actually very, very good. But anyway, he FG% is down 10 points this season, but that's not as big as the 12.4-point drop in his 3PT%Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy