No, Green still offers gravity even if his shot isn't falling. Teams would ignore Simmons/Anderson making life more difficult for Kawhi and LaMarcus.
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No, Green still offers gravity even if his shot isn't falling. Teams would ignore Simmons/Anderson making life more difficult for Kawhi and LaMarcus.
The last thing the Spurs need in their starting lineup is more long-twos. The Spurs need Green to attack, and for the most part, the results are better than people think. But the big difference between last year and this year is that Danny got a lot of foul calls on his drives last season. It makes almost no sense that Green is driving more than ever but getting the fewest FTA pg that he's had since becoming a rotation player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Officials are just not helping him out anymore. Maybe the refs have finally learned that he loses the ball so much on his own and to no bail him out. But it was an underrated part of his game that he could count on if he had to run off the line, and he still hasn't adjusted to the new paradigm. He's going to have to keep driving, though, even if he should just shoot the three more. The thing he has to focus on is just being decisive when he's approaching the rim. If he doesn't have a passing lane already established, he should just shoot it, shot-blockers be damned. Getting the ball swatted out of bounds is not as bad as giving up a live-ball TO.
They'd ignore those two up until they started scoring. That's how gravity gets established. That latency is why Green's gravity is larger than Kawhi's even though Leonard has been a superior shooter this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG_Spurs_Fan
Indeed, but no one seriously expects Anderson or Simmons to be able to start shooting the 3 like 2014/15 Green, so the spacing would suffer. Not to mention what Green offers defenisvely, which seems to be ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
I doubt anyone but the most extreme Green haters thinks he should be benched permanently. He needs a jolt to get his head straight. Benching him is more about helping him find his way with a more open unit that it is about fixing the first unit. The starters will be awkward offensively so long as they rely on midrange jumpers, and that's not going to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by BG_Spurs_Fan
Recall Jimmer from D-League, replace Danny, position Jimmer farther away from the 3pt line to give more space for LMA..........
Dude, no Green driving DOES NOT help the Spurs. Just side step the defender and put up a jumper like Beli use to. But driving it all the way down in the lane and dishing it out to a defender is not helping the Spurs in the slightest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
.320 shooting and 2.0 APG over 1.4 TO a game shows otherwise. Green doesn't have the Ball Handles and Court Vision to do that. Just side step the defender and shoot. Guys like Kerr, Bowen Kersey, Bonner, etc made a killing in the Spurs system just doing just that. Green doesn't need to be all-world. Even Simmons is doing just this and he has better handles and passing abilities than Green. He side steps his defender. If he sees the help defender collapse on him hard, which they have because of his ability to get to the rim, he dishes it off to the open man immediately. Before, he was ducking his head and taking to the rim every time, which caused him to have A LOT of turnovers.
Get it through your head, Green will never come close to being Manu in driving and dishing. You are going to see more moments like the ones in the Raptors game, where he cost the Spurs the game, than he helps them win if he continues playing like this.
Green has been with the Spurs for 4 FUCKIN YEARS. His ceiling is almost capped by now. What you saw in the '14 Finals where he did drive and had some nice pull up J's is about as good as it is going to get for Green. Him being a bonafide playmaker is NEVER going to happen.
This is a good article. Green is still vital for the Spurs. But as the article notes, he is 3 and D player who makes hustle plays. Every team needs this type of player. Asking him to do more is setting him up for failure as we have seen this year.
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/...till-important
I just want to follow it up. Notice on that play where Green passes it off to Manu. He did it EARLY. That is why he needs to do consistently. If the shot is there, shoot it, but he he sees his man open, pass it. He had that TO and it woke Green up and he played very well for the last 1 minute of that game.
http://www.nba.com/games/20151209/SASTOR/gameinfo.html
But Green needs to stop taking it to the hole. 25-15 ft should be Green territory unless the Help defender COMPLETELY ignores him while he is driving. He showed this in the '14 finals as well. Green has shown he is a VERY EFFECTIVE player playing like this. Him trying to do more is just going to cost the Spurs in the long run.
Danny is getting open looks.
We need him to pass through this phase so he will hit big shots in the playoffs. I'm not sure that second team will get him on track.
I say pound the rock, it'll happen. GS is really going to have to die for people worried about HC. We are in a good place. The West is weaker so we can be patient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
It it would be fine if the help ignored him if he could just finish.
If Danny covered himself he would never score.
He's not good at shooting long twos off the dribble, and that shot sucks. You DON'T want him shooting it there. If he can't shoot the three and there's no driving lane, he should just pass it back out. Learning to shoot an inefficient shot isn't going to help him. Learning to shoot long-twos coming off screens is a different story, but we're not talking about that right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Green has had 24 turnovers with the ball in his hand against 46 assists. That's actually not a bad ratio. I'm sorry it doesn't fit you heuristically driven perception, but the problem with Green dribbling isn't that he turns it over a lot. His shooting percentages are just abysmal across the board right now, but he is usually pretty fine near the rim. It's just that his misses are so bad that people think he's worse that he is.Quote:
.320 shooting and 2.0 APG over 1.4 TO a game shows otherwise. Green doesn't have the Ball Handles and Court Vision to do that. Just side step the defender and shoot. Guys like Kerr, Bowen Kersey, Bonner, etc made a killing in the Spurs system just doing just that. Green doesn't need to be all-world. Even Simmons is doing just this and he has better handles and passing abilities than Green. He side steps his defender. If he sees the help defender collapse on him hard, which they have because of his ability to get to the rim, he dishes it off to the open man immediately. Before, he was ducking his head and taking to the rim every time, which caused him to have A LOT of turnovers.
These are just two hypocritical paragraphs. You want to talk about Green not being able to add anything to his game while saying he should add something to his game. The bigger issue is that you're completely mischaracterizing what I said. The reason why Green was pretty decent inside the arc last season and is awful this season is because he's not getting any foul calls. Those fouls helped offset his general inaccuracy in the paint. This season, the refs are swallowing the whistle on his misses. That's not to say the refs aren't right to do so. But it is a very noticeable difference.Quote:
Get it through your head, Green will never come close to being Manu in driving and dishing. You are going to see more moments like the ones in the Raptors game, where he cost the Spurs the game, than he helps them win if he continues playing like this.
Green has been with the Spurs for 4 FUCKIN YEARS. His ceiling is almost capped by now. What you saw in the '14 Finals where he did drive and had some nice pull up J's is about as good as it is going to get for Green. Him being a bonafide playmaker is NEVER going to happen.
The point is that the Spurs don't need Danny taking long-twos. Hell, they don't need ANYONE taking them, but LMA and Leonard live off them, so they'll have to take them. If Green can't shoot the three and can get to the rim, he needs to pass it out. A two-point shooting Green doesn't help the team at all. But the biggest problem with Green right now is that he can't seem to hit the threes he takes. We wouldn't be talking about him driving versus taking long-twos if he were shooting better.
And PtR sucks.
Danny would do a much better job covering Leonard than he would do covering himself. Green likes to help off his man a lot, and it's just not a good idea to do so against a shooter like Green is when he's on. With Leonard, he'd have to be engaged and would be on the ball a lot more. Against himself, he'd get burned quite a bit on open threes.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
As a defender on himself he would never have to leave himself. He could just run himself off the line and knock the ball away or block himself trying to finish. Covering KL, no such luck without help. Green could shut himself down easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
And you are, IMO, looking at stats for his ability to merely not make a mistake. It's clear he does not risk turning the ball over while dribbling as he immediately gives the ball up. The problem is the ability to create something with the ball is almost zero. This is a guard on a team who has an aging Tony Parker playing next to him. KL is much better with the ball in the open floor. So the set offense relies on Parker breaking down the D, and passes from the elbow with our tall, adept posts watching for cutters. This is where our easiest baskets come unless KL just goes off from 3 and then monster drives, or vice versa.
The Isos we now employ are still in the realm of Boris as the easiest. And this is second team stuff.
Green leaves Kyle Korver open. If the dude is just standing around, Danny's going to drift off him. It's just his nature. The dude managed to leave Jimmer Fredette open.Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
CWS tried citing Green's stats to say he's a turnover machine when he drives. He's actually not according to his stats. But that doesn't make him a good play-maker. I know that. The Spurs need him to do more than just stand around, though. Pop doesn't seem to want Green to just be run off the line. There are passes that Green can make pretty well off the dribble, and there are some he should never really attempt. He'll be more efficient when he realizes that he's better off shooting that attempting a bad pass. Bonner's decisive on his drives, and that's what helps him succeed there. Green is still overthinking things.Quote:
And you are, IMO, looking at stats for his ability to merely not make a mistake. It's clear he does not risk turning the ball over while dribbling as he immediately gives the ball up.
This is where I disagree. Just shooting like 3-4x 20 ft jumpers a game will make teams play off of him more. The fact teams KNOW he isn't going to shoot this shot and the fact that they know he isn't great at finishing at the rim, they are going to give him this shot. Proved that you can hit it and teams are forced to play you differently. Manu does it, Kwahi does it, Parker does it, Mills does it, Beli did it while he was here. I see you point of not making a habit of it, but if don't shoot any period, teams are going to have that space to work with to defend you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Green is not hitting them because teams are running him off the line. And notice how he had the open 20 ft jumper but instead pass to Manu, which is a good play. But, the fact that teams know he is not going to shoot that shot, makes it much easier to defend him.
Green isn't James Harden. Green doesn't sell the fouls neither does he know how to draw fouls. On his drives, he is not getting fouled. Teams know he is not a great finisher at the rim so they play him straight up.
And as far as Green adding to his game, he has shown in previous seasons that he can hit the long 2. It's not my favorite shot either. But a 3 pt specialist needs to hit these so teams will play you softer on the 3 point line. It's like saying if a guy can't dribble with his left, make him go left. That is basically what teams are doing to Green at this point.
This. If he'll keep driving, maybe he should just go for the finish unless it's really safe to pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
That could help with the foul calling, putting more pressure on the defense.
Also, how would RA play defense against the starting SGs of the league?
It's perfectly fine for him to shoot pull-up twos if he thinks it's a good look. But that shouldn't be his plan if he's run off the line. There almost always has to be a better shot than a Green 17-footer off the dribble.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Green's bad percentage on open looks isn't because he's being run off the llne. Danny was run off the line a lot last season, and his percentage was still acceptable.Quote:
Green is not hitting them because teams are running him off the line. And notice how he had the open 20 ft jumper but instead pass to Manu, which is a good play. But, the fact that teams know he is not going to shoot that shot, makes it much easier to defend him.
That sounds great, but unless you think teams JUST figured that out, it doesn't explain why Danny's FTA this season are much lower than at any point in his career as an actualized player.Quote:
Green isn't James Harden. Green doesn't sell the fouls neither does he know how to draw fouls. On his drives, he is not getting fouled. Teams know he is not a great finisher at the rim so they play him straight up.
Team's aren't making Green drive. He's choosing to drive if he feels like he has a lane. Simply put, Pop is not going to just sit there while Green makes mistake after mistake to the detriment of the team. He's driving because Pop wants him to. He wants Green to figure out how to score and when to pass or shoot. For numerous reasons, Danny parking on the perimeter and settling for long-twos when he's pressure is not workable against good teams. What Bowen did wouldn't be workable today.Quote:
And as far as Green adding to his game, he has shown in previous seasons that he can hit the long 2. It's not my favorite shot either. But a 3 pt specialist needs to hit these so teams will play you softer on the 3 point line. It's like saying if a guy can't dribble with his left, make him go left. That is basically what teams are doing to Green at this point.
If Danny can get back to his old level of three-point shooting while figuring a couple of go-to moves off the dribble, then this was more than worth it. The priority needs to be getting his shooting confidence back, though. That's why going to the bench would be a decent strategy. He will have open shots and wider driving lanes with the second unit. He can use it as a training ground, and Anderson/Simmons can use the temporary promotion as a way to gain valuable experience.
Your love affair w/ Danny is blinding you. The issue this season is that he's shooting floaters or aborting his drives & kicking it out. Last season he went to the hole & dump the ball off to Tim even if he still did abort his drives shoot floater occasionally. He was also stepping in & shooting 15 footers when defenders run at him if the bigs were sagging. This season he is insists on running PnRs w/ LMA & trying to kick it back to him by throwing jump passes or throwing up his shitty floaters when he drives too deep & realizes the bigs aren't going to step out of the paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
It would be better if he was getting his shot swatted out of bounds rather than his dumb turnovers right into the defenders hands or bricks which are basically the equivalent of live-ball turnovers. LoL @ Danny shooting long 2s being worse than the all the dumb shyt he's doing this season.
Some of this stuff is good analysis, honestly. But the premise isn't. Green shot 16.9 percent of his shots at the rim last season, compared to 14.4 percent this season. While there has been an increase in short-range shots, it doesn't account for a 50-percent drop-off in FTA. Last year, 83 percent of his turnovers were bad passes or lost balls. This year it's 75 percent. So he's not more turnover-prone when he drives so far this season. He's shooting a worse percentage near the rim, but he's shooting a worse percentage from everywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
Again, people are being ignorant thinking that Danny is doing something different when he drives. He's in a slump there as much as he is at the arc, but he's not a walking disaster like folks are trying to suggest. He takes care of the ball better than you'd expect, and he's still shooting 50 percent. If he were shooting 40 percent on the threes he took, people would barely notice his driving.
I wish I had thought to say that...Quote:
It would be better if he was getting his shot swatted out of bounds rather than his dumb turnovers right into the defenders hands or bricks which are basically the equivalent of live-ball turnovers.
Missing long-twos is worse than missing layups. And even taking them is worse than driving, because it puts like zero pressure on the defense.Quote:
LoL @ Danny shooting long 2s being worse than the all the dumb shyt he's doing this season.
I agree with you in that the most valuable is for him to regain his 3 pt shot confidence and swagger. His counters are probably always going to be mediocre, but if he's shooting the 3 like we know he can, it doesn't matter. When he's not hitting his shots, then all the problems with his counters are magnified and become a sore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Neither Simms nor Anderson are the threats from 3 than Danny is. I believe Anderson can really shoot the 3, but he has a slow shot and is not confident shooting over close outs, so he passes out of shots a whole lot. Simms is unknown in terms of his shooting. I don't think he's even the 3 pt shooter Anderson is in an empty gym, but he's playing with more confidence than Anderson at the moment, which works to his advantage.
Pop did leave Simms in the Raptors game for longer than I thought he would, considering how strict he has been with Anderson. Simms racked up fouls quickly, and turned the ball over in a short stretch. Also, to be honest, I thought a couple of offensive fouls that were charged to the other team when Simms was running through screens easily could have been on Simms, as he doesn't negotiate screens well at all, and he's a tough guy who does push screeners away. They were 50/50 calls and they are not always going to go his way.
He has potential, but is still raw, so I don't see him as a starting level player. He's nowhere near the defender or shooter Danny is, and his driving is going to be nullified if he can't shoot the 3 as ppl will just sag off him. Right now, Simms is not being gameplanned for the way teams gameplan for Green. If we start Simms it could be worse than Danny is right now, as teams will just sag off him and draw charges as he wants to predictably drive.
Simms also strikes me as weakminded. He has talent, but he's looked scrubbish making bad decisions under pressure and playing wildly. Pop leaving him to play through mistakes, when he has been that much tougher on both ends with Anderson and Green at earlier times in his development, is I think Pop coddling him a little bit so as not to destroy the confidence he has gained.
Bottom line, Simms is still a developing player that Pop would rather not put ahead of Danny, so it will require a whole lot to go to Simms instead of Danny.
That said, Pop did go to Simms for longer stretches of time against the Raptors, and Danny played less minutes than he otherwise would have. I think Pop was testing Simms against Derozen, and Lowry to find out what he can do, and to coach him up. If the situation with Danny continues, we might see more minutes of Simms, less of Danny.
I don't see a Danny for Anderson swap. Anderson is SF quite simple, in size as well as skill. He can even play some small ball 4 quite well, and has been very good defending guys his size and the occassional quickie guard in switches, but to assign him to the quickest guys and more dangerous threats in the perimeter (Danny's assignments) might be a disaster, and yet who knows. Pop might experiment there too.
Benching Green isn't about improving the first unit. It needs Danny to reach its potential. It's about getting Danny to play up to his potential so the first unit can become a juggernaut. Other players have things to work on (LMA and Kawhi's chemistry and trying to fit Parker and Duncan into that dynamic). But they don't need Green to do that.
The added benefit is that Simmons and Anderson will gain some experience. Jonathon is talented enough to be a decent defender and he can at least do what Green is doing now offensively (brick threes and drive). He doesn't have Danny's gravity, but that's just better for him to develop.
Anderson would play the three and Kawhi would play the two. Kyle would get the worse wing to guard. He seems like a decent corner shooter now, so he can spot up there at the worst. The rebounding would be insane with Kyle, Leonard, LMA and Duncan. And there'd be nice help defense. I don't think it's a playoff-worthy lineup, but I wouldn't mind rolling it out against the majority of opponents.
And it's not like Danny wouldn't still be playing starter's minutes. He'd probably come in at the seven- or eight-minute mark and close out the quarter. Then he'd come back at the nine-minute mark of the second and play until the two- or three-minute mark. It would mean Kawhi wouldn't play as deep into the first, but that's probably a good thing anyway.
Hopefully Danny turns it around.
I agree with you it will be a good opportunity for Simmons or Anderson to grow, which will give Pop more guys to use for different situations.
Anderson's corner 3 might give him an advantage in that case, since he can really make that shot if he's left unguarded and the paint is clogged. He's hitting 50% on open 3s all from the corner. Small sample but he can hit it. He's not going to launch 3s like Danny or from Danny's spots, but an adjustment could be made to accommodate him at the corner.
I wonder what his percentage is when practicing. Does he kick ass and wonder why he can't do it during games or does he suck but think yeah I'm gonna roll with this anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
First off, he's attempting 15% of his shot b/w 3-16 ft at a 31% success rate (his attempts have gone up & his efficiency has gone down the drain esp. from 3-10 ft where he take his shitty floaters). His 46% at the rim & his 28% on his floaters are both WORST on the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
His turnover rate has also increased by 4% although his usage rate has decreased. (Kawhi's TOs rate has decreased w/ increased usage is only 7% compared to 14% for Danny)Quote:
Again, people are being ignorant thinking that Danny is doing something different when he drives. He's in a slump there as much as he is at the arc, but he's not a walking disaster like folks are trying to suggest. He takes care of the ball better than you'd expect, and he's still shooting 50 percent. If he were shooting 40 percent on the threes he took, people would barely notice his driving.
My point is instead of him driving into a crowd, he should pull up for a long two instead of throwing up a shitty float or turning the ball over. The best thing to do would be to swing the ball if defenders are running at him & get the defense scrambling.Quote:
Missing long-twos is worse than missing layups. And even taking them is worse than driving, because it puts like zero pressure on the defense.
That's the percentage of his total shots, not his FG% in those spots, just to be clear. His FG% at the rim this season is 46.2, while last year it was 58.4, the year before that it was 69.8 (and shots at the rim accounted for 12.5 percent of all his shots), which is actually very, very good. But anyway, he FG% is down 10 points this season, but that's not as big as the 12.4-point drop in his 3PT%Quote:
Originally Posted by SnakeBoy