This didn't turn into manu vs Tony. Good job guys.
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This didn't turn into manu vs Tony. Good job guys.
TP/Manu winning championships plus their longevity and accolades have them firmly ahead of Gervin in my bookQuote:
Originally Posted by Galileo
I don't have a problem with this as an opinion, but I do think today's fans underrate Gervin. His individual accolades are greater than those of Tony or Manu (9x all-star, 5x all-NBA, scoring champ, #1 option on the Spurs for over a decade), and while I agree that the titles should hold a ton of weight, it's also important to remember that Gervin was the main draw for the Spurs when he played and those attendance numbers were one of the big reasons the NBA wanted the Spurs in the first place. Tony and Manu took a championship-winning team and helped Tim make themselves dynasty. Gervin took a small-market ABA team and made them a viable NBA franchise. Without him we may not even have the Spurs (same with David). That's a big impact for any current player to equal.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Damn... No love for the Ice Man.
Higher than Porker tbh
:boboQuote:
Originally Posted by ajh18
Agree with the Gervin love. He was a legit top 5 player in the NBA. He was on good teams that lost to great teams in the playoffs, in some very tough losses.
Both he and DRob are under-respected by many fans today, largely on this idea that only players who win championships are all time greats. I agree to a point. But after many years of watching bball I recognize that the difference between winning a championship or not is usually based on bench play, injuries, refereeing, and just whose shots happen to go in.
So, is it really right to factor in "rings" so much when comparing all time greats? I think it is better to go back and look at how players were rated at the time they were playing. History is written by the winners and everyone has a tendency to remember things differently than they really happened.
I think that the posters who rate Gervin behind anybody other than Timmy and DRob are just young guys who never saw The Iceman play except on a couple of YouTube clips. Glad to have your company on the Iceman Revival Wagon. You are absolutely right about this franchise's probably being defunct without Ice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ajh18
My present starting unit for the All-Time Spurs Team is: DRob, Timmy, Gervin, Kawhi and Manu. But that is not quite the same thing as my Top Five Spurs list: Timmy, DRob, Gervin, Manu, Tony. I expect Kawhi to get into the top 5 or 4 before he is done. I think it is possible for him to get to #3. But it would be nearly impossible from him to move ahead of DRob or Tim.
Younger fans might not have seen Gervin play. But if they spend 5 minutes on basketball-reference.com and they'll see that he has a WAY more impressive resume than Tony or Manu. We're talking 2nd in MVP voting twice and 3rd once. He was a 1st team NBA and top 5 MVP player for 6-7 years. He was also an Allstar almost every year of his career. Not to mention that he lead the league in scoring 4 times while shooting a high %. OK he didn't play defense, but a lot of guys didn't in that era.
Go look at the Admirals stat lines from the first 6 years of his career. Soak them in. They are other-worldly. Kawhi is not in the conversation. It IS Tim, David, George, (Manu and Tony or Tony and Manu), THEN everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cklbmk
Let's just wait until Kawhi's career over atleast.Quote:
Originally Posted by 101A
When I watch Kawhi play, I see the second coming of Scottie Pippen. Just look at the stat line it is just like Pippen's normal stat line when he was in his prime.
I rank the top Spurs like this.
1. Timmy
2. DRob
3. Gervin
4. Parker
5. Manu
6. Kawhi
7. Elliott
Kawhi is going to pass everyone but Timmy and it's up in the air if he will pass DRob. I don't see it myself. It's beyond just championships and MVP and All-star appearances. DRob carried some very bad Spurs teams for 9 seasons. The one time he had a decent team was 95 and even that wasn't enough to get the Spurs over the top. 96 - 97 was the perfect example, without DRob this team won 20 games. With him it probably wins 50 and gets into the playoffs.
We will never know what will happen if Kawhi was in that position because Spurs management is so good it will find guys to help him. As far as success goes, Kawhi is in position to maybe even surpass Timmy when it comes to championships and accolades.
No matter what he accomplishes he will never pass Timmy or DRob in my eyes.
Crazy. Pretty amazing.
Somehow, Rugby is indeed the most underrated sport out there. And yes, the legendery all blacks are like an on-going, never-ending Dream Team.Quote:
Originally Posted by bic50
We have the best RS win percentage, all time. People also don't realize that back in the day, you had to win two series to ring. There were only eight teams. How many times have we won two series? Five rings, plus 2013, plus 2012, plus 2008, plus 2001, plus 1995. That would be ten rings by 50s 60s standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by wildbill2u
Gervin is a way better player than Parker or Ginobili. He just didn't have David Robinson, Tim Duncan, and Greg Popovich on his side:Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
* 12-time all-star
* 5-time 1st-team all-NBA
* leading scorer/game in playoffs 6 times including 5 in a row in NBA.
Kawhi isn't a top 5 spur on this years team.
LMAlpha
Duncan
Parker
Manu
Green
A lot of work to catch D-Rob at number 2..
Duncan
Parker
Robinson
Iceman
Ginobili
Maybe misunderstanding I think. Wasn't trying to say I thought Kawhi was the alpha who led us to the first ring (even though he was an integral part of championship success). What I mean was if he can become the alpha the playoffs and then lead us to 2 rings while being the alpha dog - I'd put him above DRob. Like say we won this season and the next, with kawhi as the clear-cut alpha (as he is so far this season) and the guy we go to in crunch time - I'd say that coupled with his being the biggest factor in turning us into a contender again puts him above DRob.Quote:
Originally Posted by TD 21
No disagreements here bro :toast Not trying to undermine how big our other role players have been.Quote:
Leonard was obviously the biggest reason they vaulted back into contention, but he wasn't the only one. Duncan somehow managing to not only halt, but reverse his decline; Parker somehow managing to have his two best seasons at a point where he should have already peaked. Also, acquiring/expanding the roles of Splitter, Green, Diaw and Mills.
Yes but we're not talking about All-NBA (Gervin clearly way ahead of Tony/Manu) but All-Spur... and that's a different story as far as I'm concerned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galileo
I'll admit, I don't know much about rugby but I do know who the all blacks are and how successful they've been for so long. And Jonah lomu R.I.P is one of my all time favorite athletes.Quote:
Originally Posted by romain.star
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galileo
We just have to disagree. Sure, all-star games are cute, but I don't weigh them too heavily. All NBA-Teams, MVP's, FMVP's and winning/titles mean more to me personally.
It always comes off as knocking someone when you rank them below someone else, but based on how long TP/Manu have remained great, the teams success (including championships, 50 win seasons, and personal awards) I can't place Gervin over TP/Manu.
Plus, dat Gervin defense...I don't think anyone is saying Gervin wasn't a gifted scorer. But when you factor in all around game, the level of sustained success and what they have meant to the city, I can't do it. He was great for SA, a gifted scorer but he's number 4 for me with a chance to fall to 5 if Kawhi keeps it up.
He's already ranked higher than Enrique. Only has Timmy, DRob, Manu and Gervin ahead of him. I think he has a good chance at surpassing all of them except Timmy.
Granted. I overstated and only meant to refer to U.S. current sports franchises.Quote:
Originally Posted by romain.star