Shooting Guard

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Originally Posted by sasaint

I like the analysis. Would probably be okay to swap Kyle and Danny against a few teams to experiment. But I doubt this would work against elite teams. Having Tony and Kyle on the floor to start games would give us two players we would need to hide on defense. Especially not good against the Warriors or the Wiz.

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I think Kyle will hold his own for a few minutes defensively. He played both Wizards' games and did well. I think that was an experiment by Pop. Pop is still clearly experimenting with Kyle, even if he's not ready to help much this season, Pop is putting him in situations and letting him figure it out, the one thing he will go ballistic for is bad defense. For a few minutes Kyle will hold his own defensively.

The problem is shooting. Kyle has been ever the reluctant shooter. He's made the corner 3, but is reluctant to take them, and he doesn't have the green light to take 3 pt shots anywhere else (probably for a reason). Simmons is basically in the same boat in terms of shooting and the green light for only the corner spot. . . Neither guy is a perfect fit with the SL for the 3 pt shot reason, the spots and shots Danny takes are not good shots for these guys. Both are better playmaker options, but the shooting is not there.

I don't know if we'll see either guy in the postseason for that reason (like Cojo who lacked shooting was a problem in the postseason). They have to keep working on that shot.

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Originally Posted by Mnky

I'd really like to see Tony or Tim, or even both, go to the bench. The starting unit has a bunch of ball dominant players, which is odd to me why They're pushing green so much, since it seems to be having a negative effect on his shot confidence.
Tony would be much better on the bench, where they often struggle to find someone who wants to shoot. When he decides to ISO several times in a row and take the ball from our two best players in Aldridge and Kawhi, we always struggle to put points up, as does our rhythm.
He really needs to develop his vision and passing, and become a true point guard. When he defers, the spurs always play better. Danny, I think still fits perfect with Kawhi on the wings. He allows Kawhi to be a star every night, as he doesn't take up space or ball time. A help defender, who can spot up and hussle on both ends makes Kawhis life easier.

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Tony had been having a string of terrific games, precisely picking his spots and his moments and saving all that energy for defense.
Pop will get on his ear to pass the ball.
There is a thread Apo started where he points to some observations about our lack of off the ball movement and some sets that when they break down end up in a Danny iso situation. :downspin:That should never, ever happen.
We have some systemic problems probably or guys are not executing what Pop wants and when plays break down inexplicably they end up in the worst possible outcome.

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Originally Posted by Mnky

I'd really like to see Tony or Tim, or even both, go to the bench. The starting unit has a bunch of ball dominant players, which is odd to me why They're pushing green so much, since it seems to be having a negative effect on his shot confidence.
Tony would be much better on the bench, where they often struggle to find someone who wants to shoot. When he decides to ISO several times in a row and take the ball from our two best players in Aldridge and Kawhi, we always struggle to put points up, as does our rhythm.
He really needs to develop his vision and passing, and become a true point guard. When he defers, the spurs always play better. Danny, I think still fits perfect with Kawhi on the wings. He allows Kawhi to be a star every night, as he doesn't take up space or ball time. A help defender, who can spot up and hussle on both ends makes Kawhis life easier.

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I have been advocating playing Tim with the second unit since the preseason. I firmly believe that is the answer, and that is the ultimate plan. But Tony is more problematic. The only other reliable PG on the roster is Manu (age 38). He could be a sort of token starter, but he cannot log those minutes. Simmons is not ready, and McCallum is unknown. Patty is not a true point guard, and he plays best alongside Manu. Unless we magically acquire a younger, system-ready PG, this is a real conundrum.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

I have been advocating playing Tim with the second unit since the preseason. I firmly believe that is the answer, and that is the ultimate plan. But Tony is more problematic. The only other reliable PG on the roster is Manu (age 38). He could be a sort of token starter, but he cannot log those minutes. Simmons is not ready, and McCallum is unknown. Patty is not a true point guard, and he plays best alongside Manu. Unless we magically acquire a younger, system-ready PG, this is a real conundrum.

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I find party would be fine with the first unit, as Kawhi and green can make up for his lack of size, and having the ball in Kawhi, Aldridge and Duncan's hands the whole time isn't a bad thing.

Duncan going to the second unit would help too with the ball sitting, as we have three dominant posters at the same time and the frontcourt is packed all the Time, but then you sorely miss his defense on other no. 1s against the talented bigs in the west.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

Tony had been having a string of terrific games, precisely picking his spots and his moments and saving all that energy for defense.
Pop will get on his ear to pass the ball.
There is a thread Apo started where he points to some observations about our lack of off the ball movement and some sets that when they break down end up in a Danny iso situation. :downspin:That should never, ever happen.
We have some systemic problems probably or guys are not executing what Pop wants and when plays break down inexplicably they end up in the worst possible outcome.

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He had been playing great by taking less than 10 shots and only taking high efficient shots. He had one game where he went off against the clips in the 4th and suddenly he thinks he's unstoppable again and starts shooting way more than we had before. He was almost at 10 shots at the half against Houston, and missed all of them, and it was against Houston PGs who are known for defense.

Our system is great, and is unstoppable really when people buy in. Like you said, they werent executing. I pointed out somewhere that Aldridge was wide open for easy layups against Houston several times, and Parker and Duncan and even ginobilli all have him garbage passes.

The breakdown has happened with Kawhi a lot, he is getting better, but you can tell when he gets tunnel vision, and he has that double team, he will force the issue. This isn't always a bad thing, but the rest of the team becomes stagnant when they move to their spot and they're open and he doesn't connect with the pass. Parker used to kill the Spurs with that. They cant keep moving as this will end up in them not being open. He has to utilize his vision better when running the offense. He did better in the Denver game, which I expect. He is a student of the game and always fixes what he did wrong last game.

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Originally Posted by Mnky

I find party would be fine with the first unit, as Kawhi and green can make up for his lack of size, and having the ball in Kawhi, Aldridge and Duncan's hands the whole time isn't a bad thing.

Duncan going to the second unit would help too with the ball sitting, as we have three dominant posters at the same time and the frontcourt is packed all the Time, but then you sorely miss his defense on other no. 1s against the talented bigs in the west.

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It is not the lack of size on Patty (although that will be more of an issue than it is even with Tony).
Patty is really not a true PG. He's not a passer guy, he's at his core a shooter. He has tendencies to chuck the ball too much. It works when he's hot, but you can't run an offense that way, he won't be hot consistently and he has to get other guys shots and get them in their spots and what not.

Pop has been evolving Patty for life after Manu and has him running PnR, PnP and many other off the dribble plays. He can do the most basic of these, and will struggle TO when trapped, and also guys will get a lot of deflections off his passes bc he's so small and short-armed.

In essence, Patty is good where he is. When he plays in the SL, Pop plays him as a SG next to Tony, and that was really when Danny was stinking it up and Pop had Manu on minutes restrictions.

Agree that Simmons is not ready and even less is Kyle (who I have gotten the feeling Pop is really testing out for his potential in that area, which is puzzling to me, bc for all his 1 year in the D'league and SL, they really didn't get him ready to be a PG, and yet I have seen Pop let him run the show at times.)

Ray is even further down the totem pole from these two and is a real question mark at this point. Today, when everyone played, at one point Kyle was really, really struggling and Pop pulled him in favor of Ray. Ray's assignment lasted all of 1 minute before Pop could not tolerate it.

We should probably draft a PG this year.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

It is not the lack of size on Patty (although that will be more of an issue than it is even with Tony).
Patty is really not a true PG. He's not a passer guy, he's at his core a shooter. He has tendencies to chuck the ball too much. It works when he's hot, but you can't run an offense that way, he won't be hot consistently and he has to get other guys shots and get them in their spots and what not.

Pop has been evolving Patty for life after Manu and has him running PnR, PnP and many other off the dribble plays. He can do the most basic of these, and will struggle TO when trapped, and also guys will get a lot of deflections off his passes bc he's so small and short-armed.

In essence, Patty is good where he is. When he plays in the SL, Pop plays him as a SG next to Tony, and that was really when Danny was stinking it up and Pop had Manu on minutes restrictions.

Agree that Simmons is not ready and even less is Kyle (who I have gotten the feeling Pop is really testing out for his potential in that area, which is puzzling to me, bc for all his 1 year in the D'league and SL, they really didn't get him ready to be a PG, and yet I have seen Pop let him run the show at times.)

Ray is even further down the totem pole from these two and is a real question mark at this point. Today, when everyone played, at one point Kyle was really, really struggling and Pop pulled him in favor of Ray. Ray's assignment lasted all of 1 minute before Pop could not tolerate it.

We should probably draft a PG this year.

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I think Not having a true pg in the first unit is fine. Kawhis usage is going through the roof and we also have two great passers to run the offense through down low. Our offense is A motion offense, which you don't really need a true pg for. Patty can spot up with the best of em and would be a good bail out option who isn't scared to pull the trigger on the first unit. Parker and green pass up plenty of open looks to drive more often than they should, negating the play their teammate just made for them. Mills is small and that would help on offense as he I'd quick and opposing guards would have to chase him through screens much like Parker.

As far as the draft, who you looking at?
I love Trimble, but think he has played his way out of our reach. Maybe not too far to move up for tho if they like him. A George hill type prospect would be Gary Payton 2nd. Elite athleticism, great lateral movement on defense (of course) long reach and a good rebounder. He can't shoot, but that's never stopped Chip before. Those two I got my eyes on.

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Originally Posted by Mnky

I think Not having a true pg in the first unit is fine. Kawhis usage is going through the roof and we also have two great passers to run the offense through down low. Our offense is A motion offense, which you don't really need a true pg for. Patty can spot up with the best of em and would be a good bail out option who isn't scared to pull the trigger on the first unit. Parker and green pass up plenty of open looks to drive more often than they should, negating the play their teammate just made for them. Mills is small and that would help on offense as he I'd quick and opposing guards would have to chase him through screens much like Parker.

As far as the draft, who you looking at?
I love Trimble, but think he has played his way out of our reach. Maybe not too far to move up for tho if they like him. A George hill type prospect would be Gary Payton 2nd. Elite athleticism, great lateral movement on defense (of course) long reach and a good rebounder. He can't shoot, but that's never stopped Chip before. Those two I got my eyes on.

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I think you have a point concerning Tony and it is valid, but Kawhi needs a second ballhandler. Its just the way it is in the NBA. Even now we have an issue bc Danny cannot really handle the basketball. He really "*ucks" up the offense bc he cannot keep the ball moving or make plays unless he's wide open. Despite the "spacing" he provides, he makes us predictable and easier to defend bc he doesn't react well to an aggressive close out. You can't compound that situation having a shooter such as Patty as your main PG, someone who is less dynamic off the dribble.

Even Lebron had someone else in his championship seasons in Wade, who could get his own shots, set others up, and handle the basketball under pressure so yea, they spotted up Mario Chalmers, but Danny is not even on Mario Chalmers' level handling the basketball, and Patty cannot handle pressure or traps well and is no more a PG than Tony.

Bottom line, we just need Tony to play well in his role, and he had been doing so. I totally get your frustration with Tony. I also want him to be a better game manager, recognize mismatches, the hot hand, get other guys in their spots and then just pick his spots and his moments. He had been doing well. Lately he has started to get aggressive with the corner 3 and that is a good sign as it means others are making plays and he's allowed to defer a little and make them pay if they help off him.

As far as the draft, I like Payton, specially bc we lack a defensive specialist at PG this season and I like guys who don't bring cumulative things. My only concern are Simmons and Anderson not being true shooters. Patty is a pure shooter, but if he's out for some time, what are we doing? We will have to see how Simmons in particular shoots the basketball and what we are doing in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

It will be a problem against good defenses,

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Despite what PJ said repeatedly, Houston is not a good defense. Good shots rimming out does not = good defense at all. The Spurs missed more chip shots than I've seen in any other game this year. The Spurs just missed shots against Houston and gave up a few too many to their scrubs.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

I think you have a point concerning Tony and it is valid, but Kawhi needs a second ballhandler. Its just the way it is in the NBA. Even now we have an issue bc Danny cannot really handle the basketball. He really "*ucks" up the offense bc he cannot keep the ball moving or make plays unless he's wide open. Despite the "spacing" he provides, he makes us predictable and easier to defend bc he doesn't react well to an aggressive close out. You can't compound that situation having a shooter such as Patty as your main PG, someone who is less dynamic off the dribble.

Even Lebron had someone else in his championship seasons in Wade, who could get his own shots, set others up, and handle the basketball under pressure so yea, they spotted up Mario Chalmers, but Danny is not even on Mario Chalmers' level handling the basketball, and Patty cannot handle pressure or traps well and is no more a PG than Tony.

Bottom line, we just need Tony to play well in his role, and he had been doing so. I totally get your frustration with Tony. I also want him to be a better game manager, recognize mismatches, the hot hand, get other guys in their spots and then just pick his spots and his moments. He had been doing well. Lately he has started to get aggressive with the corner 3 and that is a good sign as it means others are making plays and he's allowed to defer a little and make them pay if they help off him.

As far as the draft, I like Payton, specially bc we lack a defensive specialist at PG this season and I like guys who don't bring cumulative things. My only concern are Simmons and Anderson not being true shooters. Patty is a pure shooter, but if he's out for some time, what are we doing? We will have to see how Simmons in particular shoots the basketball and what we are doing in the playoffs.

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I'm not frustrated with Tony at all. im just entertaining the conversatuons. Tonys ability to get to the rim opens things up for all the first unit. He just needs to learn to distribute better, which he is showing growth. He also is making great strides on defense this year thanks to Pop sitting him early in the season every time he missed an assignment. If the warriors weren't breaking records themselves, everyone would be talking about all the records the spurs are breaking, and we haven't even got our rotations all tinkered out yet. Pop is still trying new things. I'm excited about this team and rooting for them.

Simmons has been shooting much more confidently lately Which is great to see. I have a lot of faith in Anderson tbh. He is in some of the best defensive units for the spurs statisticly so far, even though people harp on him. He also consistently gets his shot off with ease and I haven't really seen him miss a lot. Pop has been hard on him, which he usually only is when he sees something in a player, and refuses to accept mediocrity. Anderson, like Kawhi did, has consistently improved in all the facets he has been asked too. Just because he is not an over night mvp, which Kawhi wasn't either, people want to move on. If he doesn't pan out, he doesn't, but it won't be because what he has shown. He has shown the ability to play at the nba level efficiently, and has gotten better since day one.

Green's actually been playing well since Pop embarrassed him a couple of weeks ago. ST has been slow to catch up, and his teammates haven't realized it yet. But I think he's through his main slump.

I like Green's hustle and competitiveness. He seems aware of what has been going on with his shooting, and has been doing other things like notching up his D and going for more boards, including the offensive end. Dunno what his stats are, but on the court, he's very active and aggressive. Which is what you need to be if your shot isn't going. I just like his attitude. He knows what it takes to be a winner. That is one of the most underrated intangibles out there.

And something I've not seen in Aldridge...yet.

If I saw the hustle and competitiveness of Danny Green, in LMA...I'd be very, very happy.

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Originally Posted by Mnky

I think Not having a true pg in the first unit is fine. Kawhis usage is going through the roof and we also have two great passers to run the offense through down low. Our offense is A motion offense, which you don't really need a true pg for. Patty can spot up with the best of em and would be a good bail out option who isn't scared to pull the trigger on the first unit. Parker and green pass up plenty of open looks to drive more often than they should, negating the play their teammate just made for them. Mills is small and that would help on offense as he I'd quick and opposing guards would have to chase him through screens much like Parker.

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I've always thought having a traditional PG was overrated, too-- the 72 win Bulls started 2 SGs in the back court and had their SF primarily initiate the offense. The problem for the Spurs is Danny is not a reliable ball-handler. I'd love to see Kawhi keep growing in that capacity... But, yeah, Kawhi & Patty splitting the job of bringing the ball up court would be an interesting experiment. I just wonder if, come playoff time, quality teams wouldn't be able to use that against the Spurs... I imagine that's Pop's concern.

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Originally Posted by SouthernFried

I like Green's hustle and competitiveness. He seems aware of what has been going on with his shooting, and has been doing other things like notching up his D and going for more boards, including the offensive end. Dunno what his stats are, but on the court, he's very active and aggressive. Which is what you need to be if your shot isn't going. I just like his attitude. He knows what it takes to be a winner. That is one of the most underrated intangibles out there.

And something I've not seen in Aldridge...yet.

If I saw the hustle and competitiveness of Danny Green, in LMA...I'd be very, very happy.

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I mostly agree with this, but Aldridge has made noticeable strides in this intangible. Everyone has been surprised and pleased by his willingness to defend and play defense and he crashes the boards almost every possession. Sure, he has more room to grow regarding this aspect, but it's apparent that our culture and mindset is rubbing off on him in a positive way

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Originally Posted by Mnky

I'm not frustrated with Tony at all. im just entertaining the conversatuons. Tonys ability to get to the rim opens things up for all the first unit. He just needs to learn to distribute better, which he is showing growth. He also is making great strides on defense this year thanks to Pop sitting him early in the season every time he missed an assignment. If the warriors weren't breaking records themselves, everyone would be talking about all the records the spurs are breaking, and we haven't even got our rotations all tinkered out yet. Pop is still trying new things. I'm excited about this team and rooting for them.

Simmons has been shooting much more confidently lately Which is great to see. I have a lot of faith in Anderson tbh. He is in some of the best defensive units for the spurs statisticly so far, even though people harp on him. He also consistently gets his shot off with ease and I haven't really seen him miss a lot. Pop has been hard on him, which he usually only is when he sees something in a player, and refuses to accept mediocrity. Anderson, like Kawhi did, has consistently improved in all the facets he has been asked too. Just because he is not an over night mvp, which Kawhi wasn't either, people want to move on. If he doesn't pan out, he doesn't, but it won't be because what he has shown. He has shown the ability to play at the nba level efficiently, and has gotten better since day one.

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:bobo

Very good points good sir!
Thanks for sharing.

Yeah I was thinking Pop was favoring Simmons over KA but now I think he plays them in streaks allowing them to get good minutes successively to allow them to learn the system, to fail and learn from their mistakes. KAs game against Minnesota showed he can still bring it when given the chance

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Originally Posted by skulls138

Yeah I was thinking Pop was favoring Simmons over KA but now I think he plays them in streaks allowing them to get good minutes successively to allow them to learn the system, to fail and learn from their mistakes. KAs game against Minnesota showed he can still bring it when given the chance

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Not only that, to be objective, Kyle's game is less developed. He was too hesitant and passive, scared of messing up or taking bad shots, a sign of a young player who still doesn't have much confidence in himself at this level. It didn't help that Pop expected perfection. I think part of Simmons getting bumped up on the rotation is a testament to Simmons being more ready to contribute right away, but its also better for Kyle to let him play a bit freer against lesser competition. To really discover what he can do at this level, you have to give him some leash (which Pop wasn't giving him against tough teams), and he will occasionally mess up. Pop can't afford him messing up against playoff teams.

This is the risk with truly young players who are still finding their games, they will be up and down and not consistent. There is no tried and true for a newbie. What you want to see is good flashes and he has given them.

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Originally Posted by skulls138

Yeah I was thinking Pop was favoring Simmons over KA but now I think he plays them in streaks allowing them to get good minutes successively to allow them to learn the system, to fail and learn from their mistakes. KAs game against Minnesota showed he can still bring it when given the chance

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I think Pop is also fast tracking Simmons because he has a skill set that better suits him to spell Manu and help keep him fresher for the playoffs. Plus, at this point he seems to have the potential to hit the 3-ball more consistently than Kyle - at least from the corner.

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Originally Posted by Mr Bones

I've always thought having a traditional PG was overrated, too-- the 72 win Bulls started 2 SGs in the back court and had their SF primarily initiate the offense. The problem for the Spurs is Danny is not a reliable ball-handler. I'd love to see Kawhi keep growing in that capacity... But, yeah, Kawhi & Patty splitting the job of bringing the ball up court would be an interesting experiment. I just wonder if, come playoff time, quality teams wouldn't be able to use that against the Spurs... I imagine that's Pop's concern.

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Patty does fine with Manu and Boris. Kawhi would handle the ball even ore than Manu does, and both Lamarcus and Duncan are able to set their teammates up from the post like Boris. I think against certain teams it would be nice to let Kawhi go off. He has moments where every shot he takes looks good, during these periods, it would be good for him to constantly have the ball and not let that fire dimmer.
Like you mentioned with the bulls, two other ball dominant players helped carry the load. I wonder if Duncan and Aldridge could do that from the post and top of the key, while Kawhi did his thing from the wings. Then you have green and patty waitting for their spot up or running around for the backdoor layup.

Like you said, it would definitely be more of a matchup lineup, but I bet it'd be fun to watch Kawhi lead a unit.

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Originally Posted by Mnky

Patty does fine with Manu and Boris. Kawhi would handle the ball even ore than Manu does, and both Lamarcus and Duncan are able to set their teammates up from the post like Boris. I think against certain teams it would be nice to let Kawhi go off. He has moments where every shot he takes looks good, during these periods, it would be good for him to constantly have the ball and not let that fire dimmer.
Like you mentioned with the bulls, two other ball dominant players helped carry the load. I wonder if Duncan and Aldridge could do that from the post and top of the key, while Kawhi did his thing from the wings. Then you have green and patty waitting for their spot up or running around for the backdoor layup.

Like you said, it would definitely be more of a matchup lineup, but I bet it'd be fun to watch Kawhi lead a unit.

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I think we saw that in an early season game against Denver.

Kawhi dominated in every facet.

Obviously you can't play like that against elite teams.

No one single player will completely dominate unless you want our offense to look like Harden's Rockets... please no.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

I think we saw that in an early season game against Denver.

Kawhi dominated in every facet.

Obviously you can't play like that against elite teams.

No one single player will completely dominate unless you want our offense to look like Harden's Rockets... please no.

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Dominate, as in be the primary play maker ala Manu with the second unit. I'll never advocate for a James Harden ... :lol

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Originally Posted by Mnky

Dominate, as in be the primary play maker ala Manu with the second unit. I'll never advocate for a James Harden ... :lol

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He's very much a scorer... but these Denver games the past one, and one in November where the old vets sat it out, its as close to an absolute domination, in all respects and he did set others up really well. He won't make passes like Manu bc that is not his style, (Manu is really unique, can't be copied fully I think) but he still sets others up well when he has a mind to do it.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Green's actually been playing well since Pop embarrassed him a couple of weeks ago. ST has been slow to catch up, and his teammates haven't realized it yet. But I think he's through his main slump.

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I thought he had put his ugly start behind him before his Shaqtin'-A-Fool worthy fastbreak:lol & him hitting the side of the backboard on a wide open corner 3:lmao against the Nuggets. The LMA/Danny two man game was also as ugly as ever: turnover/shotclock violation.:lol

Last year, one player I watched a lot was Khris Middleton... he went from being a second round draft pick/bench player to a starter with surprisingly good all around numbers. One of the players I've been especially keeping an eye on this year is Nick Batum. After a bad year last season, he's had a bounce back year with Charlotte. His all around numbers are also pretty good-- 16.3 ppg, 4.9 apg, & 6.6 rpg. He's a free agent next summer and obviously has a bunch of ties to the Spurs: he was teammates with Aldridge & Mills in Portland, and on the French National team with Boris & Tony.

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

I thought he had put his ugly start behind him before his Shaqtin'-A-Fool worthy fastbreak:lol & him hitting the side of the backboard on a wide open corner 3:lmao against the Nuggets. The LMA/Danny two man game was also as ugly as ever: turnover/shotclock violation.:lol

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The fast-break was really bad. The three wasn't. He shot that ball from behind the backboard because Parker made a bad pass. It's a miracle when those shots even catch iron when you think about the physics involved.

Anyways, if you think Danny being back means he doesn't make some atrocious offensive plays, you don't remember Green. But he was defending the way he was supposed to and hitting the threes he took at a decent rate. He hasn't had the unstoppable games that boost his numbers into elite territory yet, but he's back to his average level of play.