A brief analysis of why the offense stagnates at its current state.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Seems like playmakers is who he used the fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

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Doesn't Danny need to get a screen to get separation from his defender? Without Tiago, who's doing the screening?

If that's LMA's job, then we now now why Green can't get free. LMA screens are just MIA.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Before he signed with us, and I saw him play a lot more, I had no idea that LMA was so averse to contact. It shows in his screen setting, his always popping rather than rolling, and in his refusal to bully much lighter defenders like Capela in the Houston game and his complete reliance on fade-aways.

According to the numbers, a very good starting lineup would be LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty (24.8 NET RTG). However, that points up another issue: Manu's age. He could be a token starter, but he obviously cannot absorb starter's minutes. So we would have to sub for him quickly and pick spots for him the rest of the way. Bottom line is that 24.8 NET reflects a lineup that can only be maintained for far less time than you want out of your starters. Probably another reason that Pop seems to be fast-tracking Simmons over Kyle. We need somebody who can offer Manu relief, preserving him for the playoffs, and Simmons is a much better facsimile than Kyle.

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It was one of the things that I found interesting in the Denver game.
The wing rotations were:
Kawhi/Danny,
Kawhi/Simmons
Kyle/Danny
Kyle/Simmons

When Kyle got benched, it was Kawhi/Simmons to close it.

No need to say anything about Kawhi, he makes everyone better and will be good and do his thing with whomever you put next to him. The mark of a true superstar.

All three other guys worked fairly well with each other in all combinations though. I actually thought despite the lack of athleticism and quickness between them, Kyle/Danny meshed well. Danny provides spacing for Kyle to post up that is not there with Simmons. Kyle's post up came with Danny lobbing the ball. Danny's defender did not commit to the double, allowing Kyle to practice the post up. If Kyle were to develop his post up game more, a pairing with Danny could work, they actually were a positive together.

Kyle/Simmons did well too, even defensively they were good, actually Kyle collaborated with Simmons on some defensive plays that ended up with Simmons' steals. I think all guys are interchangeable. The Kyle/Simmons pairing is the one with less experience combined, so maybe Pop will not have them together too much in a post Manu world. Maybe in future games we will see a bit more from these combos.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

Where are the stats?

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The ones sasaint cited concerning the lineups ratings... somewhere in this thread, a few posts before this one.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Seems like playmakers is who he used to fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

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I have to take you back to the Wizards game we lost early in the season.

Anderson injured a shoulder drawing a shooting foul in the first half. He was good, scored 4 points, and helped the bench in getting a come back bc the SL drew a null to start.

The second half, Anderson didn't play. It wasn't a Pop gimmick or benching him or anything. I later learned through a tweet, the coaches at halftime held him out in spite of him saying he was fine (you know Pop super careful with his guys).

The second half a lineup of the bench + Butler, was doing well (that was a good game by Butler by the way), but Danny and Patty proceeded to combine for a series of TO and chaotic play that swung the momentum in Wizards favor. Once the SL entered, the TO continued between Manu/Tony, but the worst looking sequences involved Patty and Danny.

The same happened in an Atlanta game before Simmons had earned Pop's trust. Danny combining with Manu for a series of TO in a row, enter Anderson. Anderson was still in his passive state and such, but just the fact, he has much better ballhandling and passing than Danny made a significant difference and the situation quieted down.

There are many instances like that. The bench has everyone pass and make plays, its not just the one guy. Danny does attempt to do too much at times with the bench, or at least it was part of his very awful start to the season. Lately, Danny has been better with the bench, but I still do have my doubts. The bench is synergistic in that all guys can pass, and they don't rely in the one guy. Danny because of his deficiencies is a better partner with a guy who doesn't require him to do too much (like a prime MVP candidate Tony for example).

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Originally Posted by ceperez

Doesn't Danny need to get a screen to get separation from his defender? Without Tiago, who's doing the screening?

If that's LMA's job, then we now now why Green can't get free. LMA screens are just MIA.

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Frankly, if LMA just improved his screens, I would be pretty pleased with him. I don't like ISO-ball for anybody, but I do like LMA's defense (which is much better than I expected) and his offensive boarding. I would like to see us run the same offense we ran with Tiago if LMA could only set good picks. Let him get points on PnPs, PnRs, mid-range kick-outs and offensive boards. Just set some good picks.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

I have to take you back to the Wizards game we lost early in the season.

Anderson injured a shoulder drawing a shooting foul in the first half. He was good, scored 4 points, and helped the bench in getting a come back bc the SL drew a null to start.

The second half, Anderson didn't play. It wasn't a Pop gimmick or benching him or anything. I later learned through a tweet, the coaches at halftime held him out in spite of him saying he was fine (you know Pop super careful with his guys).

The second half a lineup of the bench + Butler, was doing well (that was a good game by Butler by the way), but Danny and Patty proceeded to combine for a series of TO and chaotic play that swung the momentum in Wizards favor. Once the SL entered, the TO continued between Manu/Tony, but the worst looking sequences involved Patty and Danny.

The same happened in an Atlanta game before Simmons had earned Pop's trust. Danny combining with Manu for a series of TO in a row, enter Anderson. Anderson was still in his passive state and such, but just the fact, he has much better ballhandling and passing than Danny made a significant difference and the situation quieted down.

There are many instances like that. The bench has everyone pass and make plays, its not just the one guy. Danny does attempt to do too much at times with the bench, or at least it was part of his very awful start to the season. Lately, Danny has been better with the bench, but I still do have my doubts. The bench is synergistic in that all guys can pass, and they don't rely in the one guy. Danny because of his deficiencies is a better partner with a guy who doesn't require him to do too much (like a prime MVP candidate Tony for example).

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Seems like playmakers is who he used to fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

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And I have to add to this, that Danny was also still shooting poorly, so if you add in his TO and poor shooting, it makes for a net negative. At least Anderson wasn't TO over, and he really set others up. Simmons is much much better since he pushes the tempo for them which is where the bench in general thrives. This is the one single reason I can point to for Danny's negative impact in the bench. It might have in fact trended up. Danny has been controlling his TO, but he's also playing with the bench less.

I remember the Wiz game and Kyle getting his shoulder kinda wrenched. I remember rafts of turnovers, just not exactly the players responsible.

But I am not sure I follow your argument. The second unit is synergistic, therefore all five guys need to have playmaking /passing skill? Danny and 4 synergistic passers doesn't work? Put another way, you are suggesting that Danny messes up the second unit because he isn't more multi-dimensional?

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Originally Posted by sasaint

I remember the Wiz game and Kyle getting his shoulder kinda wrenched. I remember rafts of turnovers, just not exactly the players responsible.

But I am not sure I follow your argument. The second unit is synergistic, therefore all five guys need to have playmaking /passing skill? Danny and 4 synergistic passers doesn't work?

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Marco provided not only shooting, but he passed, cut, could get his own shots, and was a fairly good secondary ballhandler as well.

Simmons and Kyle are different players (from each other and from Marco), but they each can pass and set others up and get their own shots, the threat of which forces rotations that open things up for the passers to find guys. Each of these guys can handle the basketball and pass. Those are Danny's weaknesses.

The TO in Wiz, did involve Danny, both on bad passes, as well as fumbling the ball. ... also the Atlanta game I mentioned (the one at home, not the one on the road). In general, I have not observed Danny be better with the bench than he's been with the SL and he's probably masked better with the starters, who should require less passing and driving from him than they are, and where a low usage player like him, who spaces the floor and can take difficult defensive assignments, thus sparing Kawhi to close out a game, should be very valuable.

Anyways, the point is that while the bench revolves around the 3 players (Manu/Patty/Boris), they don't rely on a dominant guy to create for others. They actually search for shots for each other, and pass to each other and screen and relocate etc. All perimeter players put the ball on the floor and are responsible for creating shots. It is IMO a result of Manu not having the elite athleticism he used to. They instead use screens and find someone cutting, or pass when the defense scrambles. Manu himself has described this style as "chaotic". Does Danny sound to you like a guy who would thrive in a chaotic offense?

When Danny plays with them, he doesn't add any of these elements. Driving and passing on the move, catching the ball in traffic, just are not his strengths. Just what I have observed, if I could point to a single reason Danny has been a negative in the bench it is that, precisely his shot is off, and he doesn't add anything else. He doesn't create for others, he doesn't add to their passing and ball movement and when he tries, its a negative.

He in facts makes them stutter a little bit, since like I said his passing/driving is rudimentary. To me Danny is the perfect role player for a superstar, as he provides space for them to do their thing, but the bench doesn't rely on superstar, but on a collective chaotic effort.

Anyways, you can either see my point by now, or you can't. To his credit, Danny has been playing in a more controlled fashion and sticking to his strengths, hustle.

You kind of make it sound like our second unit is the Harlem Globetrotters and requires 5 Meadowlark Lemons/Curly Neals on the floor to make it work. Maybe so. My point was simply that we know Danny is not good at getting his own; he needs a playmaker to get his. Seems like playing alongside 4 such players would accrue to his benefit.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

You kind of make it sound like our second unit is the Harlem Globetrotters and requires 5 Meadowlark Lemons/Curly Neals on the floor to make it work. Maybe so. My point was simply that we know Danny is not good at getting his own; he needs a playmaker to get his. Seems like playing alongside 4 such players would accrue to his benefit.

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It is synergistic, and yes our bench tends to get into the too pass happy department often. You can have a different theory why Danny has been a net negative with the bench, mainly it is a matter of them getting him open shots he's clanking anyways, but he also doesn't add anything else to them, and as I pointed out he's actually had very poor sequences with the bench. He's had them with the starters too, unfortunately. If anything you could say he has been no better in one lineup than the other, and his deficiencies are probably better hidden with the starters than in the bench. Even a passive/hesitant Anderson made the bench at times stutter, and he didn't make them worse, he just didn't add much to them at the time.

Why is it that LaMarcus posted incredible numbers in Portland if he is not that good in the post?

Just asking guys, im an ignoramus in basketball, forgive me

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

It is synergistic, and yes our bench tends to get into the too pass happy department often. You can have a different theory why Danny has been a net negative with the bench, mainly it is a matter of them getting him open shots he's clanking anyways, but he also doesn't add anything else to them, and as I pointed out he's actually had very poor sequences with the bench. He's had them with the starters too, unfortunately. If anything you could say he has been no better in one lineup than the other, and his deficiencies are probably better hidden with the starters than in the bench. Even a passive/hesitant Anderson made the bench at times stutter, and he didn't make them worse, he just didn't add much to them at the time.

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My theory is simple. I don't think he is any better or worse with either unit. His game is just broken - period. That is because Pop had the idea of transforming Danny into a "more complete" player, having him put the ball on the floor a lot more. After giving some thought to the position of ceperez, that probably has a lot to do with LMA's inability to set effective screens. But regardless of the cause, the effect has been to first mess with his three-point shot and, second get into his head and mess with his confidence, affecting his entire game, including his defense. The $64,000 question is can his shot be fixed -preferably sooner than later.

I think Pop probably had a few bottles of wine one evening last summer and came up with the brilliant Dr. Frankenstein idea of building Danny into a Marco who could also play defense. The Lightning was directed onto the gurney on which Danny lay and instead of zapping him to life, it just fried him.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

My theory is simple. I don't think he is any better or worse with either unit. His game is just broken - period. That is because Pop had the idea of transforming Danny into a "more complete" player, having him put the ball on the floor a lot more. After giving some thought to the position of ceperez, that probably has a lot to do with LMA's inability to set effective screens. But regardless of the cause, the effect has been to first mess with his three-point shot and, second get into his head and mess with his confidence, affecting his entire game, including his defense. The $64,000 question is can his shot be fixed -preferably sooner than later.

I think Pop probably had a few bottles of wine one evening last summer and came up with the brilliant Dr. Frankenstein idea of building Danny into a Marco who could also play defense. The Lightning was directed onto the gurney on which Danny lay and instead of zapping him to life, it just fried him.

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:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

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Pop is fast tracking Simmons for his potential to take some time from Manu, keeping him fresher for the playoffs. If he could also relieve Danny of some of his minutes, I would be ecstatic! And Simmons has the potential (as you have observed several times) to do that to the extent he can become reliable with his corner 3 - sort of a Manu/Bowen hybrid. Next year, after a full season on the big club working with Chip, perhaps he could develop his trey from the top of the arc and the wings. Don't see that happening in time to help us this post-season, though.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Pop is fast tracking Simmons for his potential to take some time from Manu, keeping him fresher for the playoffs. If he could also relieve Danny of some of his minutes, I would be ecstatic! And Simmons has the potential (as you have observed several times) to do that to the extent he can become reliable with his corner 3 - sort of a Manu/Bowen hybrid. Next year, after a full season on the big club working with Chip, perhaps he could develop his trey from the top of the arc and the wings. Don't see that happening in time to help us this post-season, though.

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We'll have to see how the rest of the season goes, I don't see Simmons or Anderson playing in the postseason as things stand right now, bc of their shooting, if anything yea 8 minutes of high energetic play from Simmons. But, there are still months to go. The good thing with young guys over vets is that they may not look like much to begin with, but unlike the old vets they can get better. Even Boban we may see (or not bc :pop:)

I kind of wanted to see Anderson in the dleague a little bit, but I am guessing by now that Pop thinks he has transcended that, and from now on he will be pushed when he does play, so who knows concerning him as well?

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

We'll have to see how the rest of the season goes, I don't see Simmons or Anderson playing in the postseason as things stand right now, bc of their shooting, if anything yea 8 minutes of high energetic play from Simmons. But, there are still months to go. The good thing with young guys over vets is that they may not look like much to begin with, but unlike the old vets they can get better. Even Boban we may see (or not bc :pop:)

I kind of wanted to see Anderson in the dleague a little bit, but I am guessing by now that Pop thinks he has transcended that, and from now on he will be pushed when he does play, so who knows concerning him as well?

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Yeah, I don't see Kyle or Simmons playing in the playoffs unless a game becomes a blowout one way or the other. Depending on the opponent, Boban may actually have a better chance of seeing playoff action. It's called shock and awe strategy. Seriously, I could see him possibly playing against some second units.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Yeah, I don't see Kyle or Simmons playing in the playoffs unless a game becomes a blowout one way or the other. Depending on the opponent, Boban may actually have a better chance of seeing playoff action. It's called shock and awe strategy. Seriously, I could see him possibly playing against some second units.

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I hope Pop has been opening his eyes with Boban.
Like you and others, I thought he could have played against the Rockets, specially bc our bench got outscored badly.

And a sidetrack here.... it seems like in all games we have struggled to win or have lost even, our bench has been outscored. Either we are not scoring, or we are not stopping anybody.

There is a Patty Mills shooting road watch thread. I say, bench performance road watch thread.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

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I wrote elsewhere that defenders need time to study and get used to their opponent. It takes more than length, quickness and hustle to contain an NBA player. Simmons got torched by the veteran Jason Terry and this likely may have been that he forgot or didn't read the scouting report.

Spurs have no choice but to stick to Danny for his experience.

I agree with your assessment about the Danny stuttering the passing offense. However there is another 2nd team lineup that doesn't require as much passing, but is more drive and kick.... or post and kick.

Boban, Bobo, Simmons/Anderson, Danny/Manu, Mills. There have been glimpses of this in the regular season. The passes are coming from the posts and these are not just ordinary passes. These are flying across the court from strong side to weak side. I kind of like the configuration because it warps the defensive alignment with defenders forced to pack the paint. It is exhausting to defend because defenders are pushing and shoving for paint position and then they are forced to run at full speed to close out shooters.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

I hope Pop has been opening his eyes with Boban.
Like you and others, I thought he could have played against the Rockets, specially bc our bench got outscored badly.

And a sidetrack here.... it seems like in all games we have struggled to win or have lost even, our bench has been outscored. Either we are not scoring, or we are not stopping anybody.

There is a Patty Mills shooting road watch thread. I say, bench performance road watch thread.

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Boban is jelling much faster than when Baynes came along. Boban's skills are just so much more advanced than Baynes. He now rarely misses on free throws. He's got this really quick spin move. The training staff is working wonders in his game. You can just imagine the quantum leap in training from what he got in Serbia.

However in Baynes 2nd year, he made a big impact in the playoffs. The TNT crew were saying stuff like they got this guy from the Batman movies.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Yeah, I don't see Kyle or Simmons playing in the playoffs unless a game becomes a blowout one way or the other. Depending on the opponent, Boban may actually have a better chance of seeing playoff action. It's called shock and awe strategy. Seriously, I could see him possibly playing against some second units.

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I kind of disagree. I think Simmons would be in the playoff rotation. The way the Spurs play, the workloads are really harsh. So if you have opportunities to rest Leonard or Manu then that would be a major plus.

I can't say the same for Kyle since it'll be more dependent on match ups. If the opponent plays a multi-guard lineup then Kyle would be the guy to post up those little guys.

The big question for Pop is whether he's going to play West over Boban.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

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If Spurs consider the regular season as practice, then I wouldn't be surprised if Pop gave Danny instructions on driving more rather than shooting. It just sucks right now, but at the very least it give Danny some exposure to tough situations.

This is just a learning process. You first build out your bread and butter and then incrementally improve it by adding variation to the game.

The best tell to read Pop's mind is if a player doesn't get taken out after a bad play. When that happens it says that it was the right play and it was just poor execution.

You know when Pop explains to the on-court interviewer that "the shots weren't going in", what he means he was satisfied with the offensive execution. Now when he says something about the team not putting in the effort, then that means he's pissed about the execution. Even worse is the comment where he says "we can't get stops", what that means is the opponent is dominating the Spurs despite playing well.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

I kind of disagree. I think Simmons would be in the playoff rotation. The way the Spurs play, the workloads are really harsh. So if you have opportunities to rest Leonard or Manu then that would be a major plus.

I can't say the same for Kyle since it'll be more dependent on match ups. If the opponent plays a multi-guard lineup then Kyle would be the guy to post up those little guys.

The big question for Pop is whether he's going to play West over Boban.

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Good point. I mostly don't see the newest generation playing bc lack of the 3 pt shot, but also Pop's reluctance in general. These new guys have shown they can play though very early, and have been getting better and better with more opportunities and experience. Still early in the season, still time to continue to improve.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

If Spurs consider the regular season as practice, then I wouldn't be surprised if Pop gave Danny instructions on driving more rather than shooting. It just sucks right now, but at the very least it give Danny some exposure to tough situations.

This is just a learning process. You first build out your bread and butter and then incrementally improve it by adding variation to the game.

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Very good point about Danny, which makes sense with Pop allowing him to work through his mistakes and I also pointed that out at the time. This aspect of Danny is a project, perhaps more of a project than Anderson, who is still barely sprouting for us. At some point it will be reassessed and adjustments made. I have seen Danny attempt more shots in the midrange or do a one dribble side step, instead of driving if he's been closed out. He's not a good midrange shooter either and the sidestep affects his rhythm, but it lends credence to the fact POP is making adjustments and they are still looking for something that works.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

I kind of disagree. I think Simmons would be in the playoff rotation. The way the Spurs play, the workloads are really harsh. So if you have opportunities to rest Leonard or Manu then that would be a major plus.

I can't say the same for Kyle since it'll be more dependent on match ups. If the opponent plays a multi-guard lineup then Kyle would be the guy to post up those little guys.

The big question for Pop is whether he's going to play West over Boban.

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At his present level, Simmons is unlikely to make the shortened playoff "rotation", but he has 3 months to improve. And improve, he has thus far. So we shall see.