All Time PF list by Sportscenter

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

Gasol has better numbers and more rings. As stated earlier by OV, Lakers were a joke before Gasol arrived and Kobe cried about wanting to be traded. Gasol arrives and they win 2 titles. I'll take the results over the hype.

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Surely you mean better offensive numbers, right?

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Surely you mean better offensive numbers, right?

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how would you measure defense, because based on Rbs, Blocks and steals it's a virtual tie.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

how would you measure defense, because based on Rbs, Blocks and steals it's a virtual tie.

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:lol

Seriously?

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

:lol

Seriously?

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you in the 3rd grade? respond with facts.

Dirk's title and and the list of his achievements count over Barkley, but people tend to forget how dominant was Chuck in his prime.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

you in the 3rd grade? respond with facts.

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You're using basic stats to quantify player quality and then accusing me of being in the 3rd grade. :lol Do you even know what advanced metrics are?

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

You're using basic stats to quantify player quality and then accusing me of being in the 3rd grade. :lol Do you even know what advanced metrics are?

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use your metrics to support your argument. You're acting like a kid.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

use your metrics to support your argument. You're acting like a kid.

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I'm scoffing at your overly simplistic analysis.

Baffles me why the Karl Malone myth still persists. Dirk, Barkley, McHale, KG, and even old timers like Elvin Hayes were better.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

I'm scoffing at your overly simplistic analysis.

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Basketball isn't as complicated as you non-athletic types like to make it. When I play I want my big man to get boards, block shots and get steals. If you have a different way to differentiate, please share it. Otherwise. You're trying to stroke your ego without saying anything.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

use your metrics to support your argument. You're acting like a kid.

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Originally Posted by 2centsworth

Basketball isn't as complicated as you non-athletic types like to make it.

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:lol :lol :lol

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

:lol :lol :lol

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You know, if it's so cut-and-dried that Garnett's a better player than Gasol, you should be able to come up with something other than opinions and emojis. Gasol held his own head to head against Garnett in the finals.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

You know, if it's so cut-and-dried that Garnett's a better player than Gasol, you should be able to come up with something other than opinions and emojis. Gasol held his own head to head against Garnett in the finals.

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I didn't really think it necessary to prove KG is a better defender than Pau. Anyway.

DRTG: (career)
KG 99
PG 104

DRTG: (Peak)
KG 94
PG 100

DWS:
KG 91.6
PG 45.7

WS:
KG 191.5
PG 127.5

WS/48:
KG .182
PG .170

DBPM:
KG 3.3
PG 1.9

DBPM (peak):
KG 5.0
PG 3.1 (though he's at 3.6 this season)

TRB%:
KG 19.3
PG 15.1

KG 9x NBA All-Defensive 2nd team
KG 3x NBA All-Defensive 2nd team
KG 1x DPOY
PG 0x Defensive awards

Both peak and career, KG has been a better defender. And it's not particularly close.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

I didn't really think it necessary to prove KG is a better defender than Pau.

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I didn't have an issue with your claim, but I thought the way you responded was beneath you. Thanks for coming up with numbers.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

I didn't have an issue with your claim, but I thought the way you responded was beneath you. Thanks for coming up with numbers.

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I honestly thought it was beyond debate. Pau vs. Garnett has some merit. But not on the defensive end of things.

Duncan is the best by far, he's a top 5 all time player. Malone was good, no doubts about that, but he depended on Stock. When MJ or Pippen disrupted their offense, Malone wasn't great creating. For those that didn't saw Duncan in his first 7-8 seasons, he was by far the best Spur in 2013, when Manu and Pop throw away the 'ship in the dying seconds of the finals game 7.

It would make sense to have Dirk before Malone, since Dirk was able to get the job done. Kevin Garnett was never better then Duncan, not even during his MVP season. The 'Wolfs tended to pad his stats in blowouts and his game was less suited for playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

I honestly thought it was beyond debate. Pau vs. Garnett has some merit. But not on the defensive end of things.

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You might be correct, but there were a lot of people that reacted that way when I pointed out that they were underrating Duncan and overrating Dwight Howard.

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Originally Posted by pgardn

And then they met in the NCAA playoffs...

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25 points and 24 rebounds for E in 1967 vs UCLA in tournament.

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Originally Posted by SpursIndonesia

Oh he was good. Was he a franchise level of player though ? Because the rest of guys on that list are/were. One hell of a ROLE player, especially for defensive purpose when the team chemistry was right for him, but he basically sinked DRob 95 WCF by leaving the perimeter open for hoarding the rebound, that's just inexcusable for him considering the opponent offense relied so much on perimeter shooting out of opportunities created by the Dream.



You can put him as a top 10 DEFENDER, the best ROLE PLAYER, or more precisely the BEST REBOUNDER ever (though Moses Malone might be rolling in his grave in disagreement), but top ten on any position IMHO required franchise or top three player in a stacked team with complete repertoire or superb ability in one area that he can still carry the team even with other deficiency in his game.

For all of his weakness as a defender (and late prime Dirk was just below or at the par as an average defender), Dirk Nowitzki was so damn dominant offensively that he successfully carried that 2nd superstar less Mavs team to championship, ala TD in 2003 and the Dream in 1995. That will easily propel him into top ten PF list without any debate, outside of which rank exactly that he has earned.

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Rodman played 8,000 less minutes than Pau - has 80 more steals, 800 more defensive rebounds, 1600 more offensive rebounds, in the regular season. If you're over 7' tall, and a TOP ALL TIME PLAYER, and your job is to rebound and score, shouldn't he be dominating the people he is ahead of? Rodman, even with disparity of minutes played, has about 10 more defensive win shares. Rodman was a hell of a role player for his team, just like manu, and similar to Pau. Pau was never the #1 for his team in the playoffs. Let's not pretend he was the face of any franchise when he was winning rings. In all of his runs he had like 9 big men playing with him.

Pau Gasol is behind Amare in PER, just as an FYI.

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Originally Posted by daslicer

I would put Chris Webber or Rasheed Wallace over Rodman. Rodman was a great defensive player but his offense was awful.

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Rodman has a higher FG% than Pau....

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Originally Posted by tholdren

Rodman has a higher FG% than Pau....

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Rodman only took a few shots a game so that doesn't mean anything.

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Originally Posted by daslicer

Rodman only took a few shots a game so that doesn't mean anything.

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lol ok.

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Originally Posted by tholdren

Rodman played 8,000 less minutes than Pau - has 80 more steals, 800 more defensive rebounds, 1600 more offensive rebounds, in the regular season. If you're over 7' tall, and a TOP ALL TIME PLAYER, and your job is to rebound and score, shouldn't he be dominating the people he is ahead of? Rodman, even with disparity of minutes played, has about 10 more defensive win shares. Rodman was a hell of a role player for his team, just like manu, and similar to Pau. Pau was never the #1 for his team in the playoffs. Let's not pretend he was the face of any franchise when he was winning rings. In all of his runs he had like 9 big men playing with him.

Pau Gasol is behind Amare in PER, just as an FYI.

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Is Manu in the top 10 list ? Exactly my point.

Pau Gasol is somewhat like Gervin or Drexler, all around greatness but not great enough to win it all carrying the team all by himself. Now, his place in top 10 list is by no mean a lock, i can see the merit of the argument excluding him from that list, but certainly if he is not deserving, Rodman is even more undeserving.

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Originally Posted by SpursIndonesia

Is Manu in the top 10 list ? Exactly my point.

Pau Gasol is somewhat like Gervin or Drexler, all around greatness but not great enough to win it all carrying the team all by himself. Now, his place in top 10 list is by no mean a lock, i can see the merit of the argument excluding him from that list, but certainly if he is not deserving, Rodman is even more undeserving.

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manu is better than gervin was... exactly my point

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Originally Posted by SpursIndonesia

Pau Gasol is somewhat like Gervin or Drexler, all around greatness but not great enough to win it all carrying the team all by himself.

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Please, watch Eurobasket 2016 semifinal and final. You will see a player to win a championship all by himself. A player carrying his team alone. And playing like a true monster at both ends. And that player is Pau Gasol.

Pau Gasols performance at Eurobasket 2016 was a all time best by any player in a international tournament. Ever.