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Obviously Tim's leadership is being missed. Both West and Kawhi spoke about that after last night. It's more than rim protection, Tim is the one calling the shots, literally, on defense. Someone needs to step up in his place, They are not 'communicating' with each other. I'm sure LMA and West being new might make it harder for them to be the leaders on defense, but someone has gotta do it!
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Didn't see Solid D's thread when this was posted. This is covered there. At least the obvious part of us missing Tim. I reckon the question is, who is going to take the leadership role in his absences? Gotta be Kawhi and I don't know if it's his nature....might be a good thing for Tim to be out in that regard.
The big IQuote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
In position to call what they will do. Has to be LMA but he's never
One that nor is he familiar enough with it to do it, but he will have to.
Aldridge has never been known as a leader, tbh..he's a follower that wants to be credited as a leader..Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
D-West actually is vocal on defense but he isn't very good at actually playing defense.:lol It's common knowledge that the last line of defense has to be pretty vocal & it helps when someone can read the other team's offensive sets (like KG/Tim/Chandler/Fat Gasol/Noah/Bosh). It's no different than a line-backer running the defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
Pretty much what I'm thinking. His leadership qualities are going to need to bloom. He's not being paid to be a wallflower. I think it will do him some good. Again we are spoiled as hell and Tim Duncan is one of a kind!Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
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Spurs should trade for Noah. He's a DPOY is a great communicator in defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
I also read somewhere that Mahinmi has become a good defensive player because he's out there communicating with the defense.
Kawhi can't do the job Tim does because he's at the wind defending and can't see the play from the point of view of the center.
Man... why the hell do the Spurs have this kind of player? So sad!Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
I don't think he's ever been in a position to lead. Durant is the same way. Must be a UT thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37
SMH....
Kyle has been a leader at every step. Newbie and all.
Maybe him at the 4 can call WTF we are doing. I always see him pointing out to Boban when to help for example and other guys to rotate. Sometimes he's missed his own assignments bc he's pointing to other guys who to pick up.
I have more faith in Kyle calling something than LMA I don't see him vocal on defense nor pointing out anyone anywhere.
You expect someone who's learning the system to be the leader at communicating where to be?Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
Kyle is a smart player and is more familiar with the system as it's played the same in The d league, and he's consistently out of position on offense and defense. Dwest and LMA come from systems built around them. You don't emulate what we are used to seeing from years of chemistry of the spurs in half a season. The leadership should be from Kawhi, it's his team. Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, all took that role on defense. Kawhi needs to take it too.
I am pointing out what we see on defense. Communication on what we are doing has to come from the first person getting back in transition and I don't know what you were looking at, but very often that is or has been Kyle. HOw many times did he pick up Dwight Howard until LMA was able to get him. Danny does this a lot too, in getting back in transition and running to the paint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnky
Kyle has actually been in the system longer than LMA and was a damn fine leader in SL. This is not something I would ask him to do on defense. It has to be the big man, wings are usually not in the best angle of view to call out what they are doing. It is usually the center's job. Maybe a defensive minded PF does that for other teams, but I don't see LMA pointing out anything or talking to anyone on defense. I am telling you what I see. I see Kyle pointing out to others where to be when he plays. He's seen a lot of garbage time with guys just as him or with less experience than him in Ray Mc, Simmons and Boban.
I would not have expected that we need this from him in the big leagues, but someone has to, if he's at the 4 he could be in position to defend PnR and may have to communicate with LMA on defensive rotations. Being a leader comes naturally for some guys. Kawhi is not a vocal person, Kyle is. Just look at them play. How often is Kyle talking to others.
I expect another minuteless playoff run just like last year for KA.
No meaningful minutes atleast. :lol
He should be that way as he's always been a point guard. That wasn't the question. It should always be the wings getting back first because they're standing at the three point line in transition as opposed to battling in the paint for rebounds. What I asked is if you thought a new player learning a system should be accountable to lead the team. No new player should be the one in charge of communication, especially with this group of veterans who all talk over each other. If someone new has to come in and fix things, it only shows that the people in there before were broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
No the leader is Tim but this is our current big situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnky
All our rotation bigs at this time save Diaw are new to Pop's system.
West? New, and he's not a defensive stalwart TBH. He's fiery and competitive, but he has more of an offensive impact than defense, and he's often out of his own rotations. WAtching him defend even benches PnR with Patty is really really difficult and terrible.
Boban? Pls, Kyle is the one pointing out to Boban where to be.
LMA? I have not seen him in any of our games without Tim talk to others on defense. Our games without Tim have actually not been very good defensive games. Heck Timberwolves almost won while we were playing AT HOME.
So among all these "bigs" I think Kyle might be able to help. It's not a concidence the team made a run while he was playing and then he was subbed out and LMA came in the game, and the lead kept ballooning. Kawhi probably has a role in that too. You can't blame it all on LMA... but usually LMA is the one who has to communicate with the guard or wing defending and call out what the heck they are doing.
Hopefully this is being discussed. Perhaps a lot of the communication needs to be a group thing with the C or PF being the most vocal. We should do much better against the Magic and we always seem to bounce back well after a bad loss.
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Thatmakes a Danny/Kyle trade for Hill/Mahinmi even more tempting. But, questions: does he communicate in French?Quote:
Originally Posted by ceperez
spurs are missing his defence and, imo, his calmness.
A girl I know went to school with Ian. I believe he's from here...the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by sasaint
As Pop said "the center of the universe." It will do them good acclimating to his absences in all of them finding their way. Especially LMA, he needs to find out what kind of leader he needs to be. As someone mentioned Kyle is defending the wing and has a different site-line.Quote:
Originally Posted by gambit1990
I think that's something people don't realize enough. West, lma, boban are all learning a system. It takes time to learn a normal system let alone pops advanced systems.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
I told you in another thread that Kyle ran the team better than Tony in my eyes due to his want to play as a play maker than a shot maker. Same thing happens especially against elite teams. Parker has become a very situational player, and his lack of playmaking for the team is concerning since he has so much experience in the system. How long will it take before he learns to play a pg and not a sg? I digress, back to the defense.
The call on the switch is almost always on the wing player. Even Tim gets called and told what to do on switches. The post player calls the side of the screen, and the wing usually calls according to how he attacks the screen. The big man is left to play off his teammates ability to discern the right choice of attack. I think all the bigs will be better at the end of season just to familiarity allowing more instinct to take place and not so much decision making. Kawhi, definitely should be taking charge of this team though and telling people what to do. If your leader can't lead, you won't get far.
We saw that Kawhi's talking a lot on defense this season. I can remember some particular moments where he was full on some guy and then that guy was better on that end. Like the game in Houston with Diaw.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
It's likely he won't say much on offense since Parker is running it but on defense, I truly think Kawhi can be the leader the Spurs need.
Beside D's leadership, like many people say here, the Spurs have a personnel issue in the paint. West and Diaw can't play at C and Boban is a rookie with some limitations on the defensive end.
Kawhi/LMA/everyone can talk a lot on the court but they won't improve as rim protectors...
I agree with you on Tony. I don't want to hate on him because he's been efficient with what he's doing for the most part, and when he does decide to move the ball, he has had success. But Tony is struggling with his own role playing off other ppl (he should shoot the 3 when its created for him out of the post up, otherwise the whole post player getting doubled and having to kick it out to him is a waste of time). He doesn't fit in a post play centered offense. Then he's not looking to pass most of the time, he only passes when he's stuck. He's always been like that and you are right on Kyle. He's always looking to pass and will take his shots when there are no options for anyone else. Tony doesn't have that mentality, maybe he never will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnky
On defense, like you said, there is probably a lack of communication from everyone and they will have to work on that as a team. Once Aldridge got in foul trouble we saw a lot of experimentation with different defensive schemes, so I think guys were not even very familiar on those schemes and the lack of communication aggravated it.
That's good to hear and yes on he won't be as vocal on offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by YGWHI
Good post. When LMA got benched for the entire 2nd quarter it certainly gave Boban a taste of what he is up against. We obviously got torched defensively. Lesson learned!Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
Boban was negative 1 plus minus in 8 minutes. We didn't lose the game there. We actually looked like a good team. Prove me wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
Actually that's good to hear. I'll go back and watch that. I shouldn't put it on him if that's not the case. They just murdered us in the 2nd quarter and LMA sat the entire time. However Boban only played part of that quarter.Quote:
Originally Posted by dabom
A rational fan? :wowQuote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
What what! :wow
This is EXACTLY what Pop is experimenting on, who is going to step up and resume Duncan's role as the LEADER of this team. Kawhi isn't going to be that guy. LMA is not that guy. Green isn't that guy either. I think KA can be that guy. He was the vocal leader of his UCLA team. I think Boban can be that guy once his English gets better and once he learns the Spurs system better. Watch his serbian games, he is very vocal with his teammates.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
Not joking, just looking at last night's game and previous games, KA and Boban have excellent communication. Probably the best outside of Duncan. They work very well with each other. KA had the biggest +/- last night and there was a reason the Spurs expanded their lead in the late 3rd early 4th quarters once he entered the game.
But someone does need to step up. Kawhi and West are finally figuring out just why Pop is sitting and resting Duncan right now.
:lol Ian is French, he never went to school in USQuote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by dabom
Kyle did look very good last night. Whoever takes that leadership role need to be in the starting line-up. Wonder if Boris isn't a guy who know the system and has the experience and personality to direct. I like that Kyle had that role in college. He is a good distributor and I'm sure his leadership, especially offensively, will continue to develop in the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Bunch of betas outside of Tim. Sad.
You are 100% right Brazil, my apology. I was getting Ian mixed up with Anthony Tolliver, not for the first time. Girl I know went to school with him in the mid-west and was always being invited to games. Je m'excuse s'il vous plait! :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
:lol no worries...Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
Tu es tout excuse
You hit the nail on the head. The leadership potential is there on Kyle. He's vocal, he encourages and cheers teammates who make good plays. He takes the lead on offense at times, he points to guys the right spots to be, and he was the most vocal defensively and talking to guys pointing when to rotate. He has incredible BBIQ and anticipates well enough to know when to help and to point out to the person who should be rotating to do it. He did this for us in the CLE game too. He scored well, took the leadership and was active on defense. It is not a fluke that he had the best +/- in both games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowboys_Wear_Spurs
Everyone would have thought we were throwing away the game against CLE in the 4th Q with the garbage time crew. Not so, Kyle and crew cut the lead and got that game within 10 points and if only we had some 3 pt shooting in that stretch (for example a Patty Mills or Danny Green scoring burst like Patty had to enable the comeback against ORL), we could have been in a position to win.
I do think Kyle is just a natural leader and when our vets do retire he will be needed to step up in a consistent fashion.
Isn't Boris the real leader of the FNT?Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
He's been in the system the longest of all our current bigs.
I am guessing his experience is a big help to LMA, and he's also a veteran, so with all his experience he makes sense to step in for Timmy right now.
So what d'you say? Play Boris with the SL and Kyle with the bench?Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
Yes, I guess so. Boris' vet saavy should help them, plus he has incredible chemistry with Tony and is a better screener bc Kyle is so slim. Boris' screens should help Tony. Boris also gets Kawhi involved a whole lot. Overall, I think Pop's choice of Boris to start was a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by From Downtown
Kyle has stepped up in a bench role... and he previously didn't have much chemistry with Manu, but as Manu starts to play off Kyle more (instead of the reverse), they are playing better together as a tandem. Kyle gets open shots for Manu at the 3pt line, and also finds him cutting. Its just a huge help to Manu IMO. Also, Manu helps him as well in the role he will have to grow into (and is currently growing into).
Je sais! :boboQuote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
KA, future Spur star, will become the leader we need.
Yes I believe he is the Captain of the FNT so he is no stranger to the role. I also concur with you that his size and experience with Tony makes sense for him being in the SL. Big help to LMA too! It met the eye test too last night....for awhile!Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
And people shouldn't worry that Kawhi and LMA aren't the leader types. Look no further to than the recent Lakers championship teams. Is wasn't Shaq/Gasol or Kobe that were the leaders, it was Fisher. I always knew this and Phil Jackson just confirmed just that a few years ago.
That game against Houston, KA did an excellent job as a starter and getting everyone involved. Green had probably his best quarter of the season. I think KA will be a big part of the Spurs going forward.
I agree about the Manu-Kyle thingQuote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
I couldn't watch the game last night,but when I did today (you see a lot more stuff when you already know the result :lol) I noticed their getting better and better playing with each other while they have struggled in the past
Manu was able to find Kyle and get him open shots (or got the hockey assist 'cause Kyle made the good-to-great kind of pass) and as he also still moves around a lot on offense and is a great cutter he benefits from playing with somebody who's as good of a passer as Kyle (that's why the chemistry between him and BoBo is great)
As I said in another thread Manu obviously needs the ball in his hands to be effective,but him playing off the ball sometimes to save his legs (Pop has been trying to do it with Mills this season,but with mixed results) knowing there's another competent ball-handler out there whose game is also a bit more perimeted-oriented than Diaw's is not going to hurt us
I have not watched Manu's entire career, but I think he plays off others really well, specially post players bc of his 3 pt shooting and cutting instincts. Kyle is not a ball hog at all. He made plays, but he passed to Patty, and Ray made a play for Kyle too. They didn't mesh well together initially IMO bc Kyle's best asset is his passing and leadership and so is Manu's, so there were redundancies but since Kyle is playing as a big its a bit different dynamic. I think Pop was reluctant to move Diaw to the SL bc of his tremendous chemistry with Manu, but Manu showed he can play with Kyle just as well, at least when Kyle is the 4. The bench didn't lose any of its passing when switching Diaw for Kyle. The concerns are rebounding but already Diaw/West had trouble in that area. Kyle/Manu switched a lot on defense, sometimes honestly at Manu's request, and often Manu ended up having to box out a big for a rebound that just simply got the rebound over his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by From Downtown
If that is a concern I could see Pop going back to LMA/Kyle and then Diaw/West.
Manu's switching a lot this season,which is understandable at this point of his career and in some occasions he finds himself defending the other team's bigs...there was a play when he found himself on one of the Magic bigs and after ended up forcing Fournier to turn the ball over and that was SO good to see,and he's also a good enough flopper to get the offensive foul quite a few times :lol rebounding is indeed an issue with Kyle at the 4,but it is with Diaw and West on the court together as well,so I guess you just play LMA big minutes and live with it when he's on the benchQuote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
No Championships post-DuncanPERIOD
I always laugh at the word leadership. Its a word that's thrown out a lot during job interviews.
Well without it you end up with a clusterf*ck most of the time. :lol They just have to communicate with each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by daslicer
Without leadership there is also a lot of freelancing and guys going one on one or you will have guys out of position, like you say a clusterf*ck.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurs10
Well,having a guy out there who's vocal,isn't afraid of getting the ball and making plays down the stretch and has the trust of his teammates certainly helps,especially in difficult situationsQuote:
Originally Posted by daslicer
Shouldn't Kawhi be the leader on the court outside of Tim? I mean, it is 'his team' now...if he is our MVP candidate and the person we are building the franchise around, doesn't it have to be him?
People have mentioned that he is often locking someone down on the wing and won't have the court vision that someone in the post will. I think it takes a village and they are learning how to delegate that responsibility with "the Center of the Universe" out...Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAY
:flag:
You need to be a vocal person, he's a very quite dude and barely do I see him barking orders out to anyone. He should do more of that, but you know what? No one is stopping him. He can grab the role in fact he's probably being pushed to grab it. Its just no his nature. Meantime you see a young "inexperienced" guy like Anderson and he's always talking to guys while he's on the floor on both ends. It comes natural for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAY
I understand and agree that he is a quiet guy by nature. So was Tim, and Tim had to be forced to take the leadership role that seems like it is second nature now. It was not ever his first nature. I believe that Pop is pushing Kawhi to that because I have heard him in interviews saying almost defensively "I'm talking out there". I think NO one on the team has Tim's court vision, but then no one has his experience and talent, either, and that includes all of our younger players, including Kawhi and Anderson.Quote:
Originally Posted by SAGirl
Comparing Tim and Kawhi in this sense is apples and oranges. Even if a 21-24 year old Tim wasn't the team's absolute leader, he was still one of the most talkative and jokey guys on the team, despite what the media makes him out to be (Malik and Daniels can both attest to this).Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAY
I'm 100% sure everyone in SA loves Kawhi but he's still probably very quiet with the team. Duncan was just a normal teammates who became the team's absolute leader when he got a bit older and when David hung them up. Kawhi doesn't have that in him. He can lead by example, but I think a team's leader will always need to be somewhat vocal. Again, despite the stigma, Tim is and was as vocal as they come. Just not with the media or in-front of cameras.
http://photos.sacurrent.com/wp-conte...an-coach-o.gif
Not really. It was Pippen who was QB'ing the Bulls defense out there similar to Duncan now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mnky
Quote:
“His greatest strength was his knowledge of how things worked on the defensive end of the floor,” he said. “Scottie was the voice of our team—figuratively and literally, as he did a lot of the talking and kept our team on the same page. When he wasn’t at the top of the key harassing a guard as a special assignment, he was on the backside of our defense talking his teammates through different situations, whether it was a double team, trap or some other important aspect. Because of that, he was very vital to the run that we made.”
"All I needed to do was whistle, and Scottie would know instinctively how our defense should react. On the occasions when I signaled a player toward the bench to ask why he suddenly changed his defensive position, the standard reply was: ‘Scottie sent me.’ Which is why, when I met Dr. Buss in Hawaii last May, Scottie was my first choice among the prospective free agents.” - Phil Jackson
That would be Kawhis position, making the argument more valid. Although, Jordan would often pull assignments when the opposing player wasn't getting slowed down.Quote:
Originally Posted by hitmanyr2k
During the first few years that Tim was here (and he was a college grad when he got here, so he was 21 or 22 during his first year?) the ONLY vocal voice on the team was Avery Johnson. I was at every one of Tim's home games for the first 12 years of his career, and I guarantee you, it was Avery Johnson who was the 'team leader' for the first several years. Tim grew into his vocal leadership role - he didn't start that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_L_P
tlp needs to stop his shtick from oozing into ST tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAY
I'm not saying Tim was any kind of vocal leader his first few years. I'm simply saying the Kawhi comparison is terrible because Duncan was just one of the guys who progressed into becoming a leader when he got older and when his team needed him to be one.Quote:
Originally Posted by EVAY
Kawhi, OTOH, is intrinsically introverted. He's not talkative at all and it seems very unlikely that it's going to change. It's unfair to anticipate him becoming a vocal leader in his career.
Stop following me, dabs.Quote:
Originally Posted by dabom
You lost the argument brah. Don't dig deeper youngin. It happens when the majority of people are all Spurs fans. Lot of history in these boards. People will be corrected. It happens. No shame in saying you were wrong. :tuQuote:
Originally Posted by T_L_P
You're a good guy though...
Bro, I'm just saying I don't think Kawhi has the vocal leader in him. He's exceeded all expectations we've ever had of him already, so it's obviously not a bad thing. But Kawhi is a really quiet guy (I'm sure his father being murdered has something to do with that) and I don't think that'll change.Quote:
Originally Posted by dabom
You're a good guy too though. :tu
I think once Duncan leaves, he'll slide in as the team leader on and off the floor. All players go through that. It's a respect thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_L_P
I'll leave it at brah. :tu
Pop and his teammates seem to agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by YGWHI
Quote:
Leonard has emerged this season a team leader. Of all the many internal developments that are taking place within the Spurs ecosystem, this may be the most important.
"He’s not just doing it by example anymore," Spurs guard Danny Green told me. "He’s leading by action."
"He’s never going to be a towel waver," Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "He speaks to me about things that he sees now. He comes into timeouts, if he’s not happy with what’s going on on the court. That’s all good.
"I’d rather have him do that than beat his chest and wiggle his shoulders and stare at the camera and all that other crap," Pop continued. "That doesn’t seem to make much sense. I’d rather have it the other way and work on him to be a leader in the timeouts, in the locker room, on the plane. That kind of stuff."
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2016/11/...ay-shootaround