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Ummm....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
If you couldnt tell us more than five or six guys on the roster back then and if Bruce has been gone forever and your memories of him are about about as Fresh as they are of DRob how can you claim to know so much about what he did?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
The issue is that Kawhi is needed for offense, so him banging with Draymond on the other end will tire him out. I think Bowen would do a good job, since Green is a perimeter player first. And Bruce should still have enough to hit his corner three if need be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidd K
Yeah Danny is more a bulldog to Bowens big cat. I love Danny and in the playoffs where they let him play more physical, he is money but he will just try to blow up screens like bull rushing through a block. Bowen was more like the finesse rusher dipping around and ripping past the block using his hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
One, because Bowen was one of those guys along with the Big Three, Kerr/Finley/Nazr and Horry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
Again, though. I am talking statistically. I know people want to argue that Bowen was beyond his stats, and that's true in terms of steals, rebounds and blocks, and even true of advanced stats. But if you make a claim that Bowen checked Dirk, and the stats show Dirk was still a superstar in that series, the claim becomes questionable. It becomes even more so when the next year, a wing actually DID shut him down.
Bowen was a great defender. I would say one thing Bowen had the ability to do which very few great defenders can do is get underneath guys skin. Guys literally hated Bowen and would complain about him 24/7. You had guys like Vince,Ray Allen, who wanted to fight with Bowen.
Danny is great but his supporting defensive cast is better. Bowen played with Manu/Finley/Barry and Elton/Nazr/Oberto. Tiago was right up there with Bosh as best space defending big men in the NBA. Neither of Bowen's centers were near his nor LMA's defensive level. Prime Manu was a great defender but he is no Kawhi and Barry as well as the corpse of Findog are nowhere near that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
I notice in this conversation you again fail to talk about how basketball is actually played on the court. You talk of fuzzy memories but all you have are referenced, cherry picked stats without context. In general defensive stats are nonspecific even if labeled as such. You aren't even posting them to actually make the argument but instead expecting us to assume you're right. Typical.
And that's fine. But that is why I said expectations where different. Bowen did exactly what Pop wanted him to do. But nowadays, Pop doesn't just ask guys to make life hard. His guys will seriously shut people down. That's a much harder job, especially in today's NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
Nothing wrong at all. But Jack was better against Dirk, even as an old man. I think Bruce essentially being the average PF defensively against Dirk is impressive. But he wasn't even the best Dirk-defending wing of his era.Quote:
Steph Jax when dialed was a tough defender with same kind of poisonous defense than Bruce tbh... there is nothing bad to be compared on S Jax best defensive stretch except Bruce was doing it not only during 5/6 games but all season long.
I mean objective rating as in not just as far as his importance to the Spurs. He's hurt by stats in the same way Green is. Just as folks are accusing me of using stats to underrate Bowen in relation to Green, they underrate Green because of his lack of stats.Quote:
Objective rating is inflated ? what rating ? metrics ? Bruce metrics are shit tbh... never averaged a PER above 10 I thinks, in 5 seasons Kawhi has more ws, dws, drating, vorp than Bruce in his whole career. Does that mean Kawhi is a superior defender ? yes. Does that reflect the magnitude of the gap ? no
It doesn't have to be in the 00s. That's the point. People are arguing that he is that great all-time. Put a guy like Ariza on the team, and the Spurs might three-peat..Quote:
In the 00s what other guys ? o_O you make it sound there were a lot of players capable to do what Bruce was doing which is puzzling...
And an athletic one, too. But people will selectively forget that.Quote:
Last sentence is fine but then again, Bruce was never asked to do anything else that this corner 3, why would he ? Manu, TP and Tim on their prime... For the record and because youngins don't know everything, Bruce was a solid offensive player overseas, it's not like he was uncapable to do more than what Spurs wanted him to do.
This is true. But is that really better than not getting under their skin yet still shutting them down?Quote:
Originally Posted by daslicer
You are exactly right. Bowen's defense was beyong his stats. And he did check Dirk when it mattered. Got a block and jump ball against Dirk at the end of game 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
You can't say he was a bad defender because of what Dirk averaged that series when Bowen was primarily on guys like J Howard and Jason Terry and only switched to Dirk in certain situations. That exacly is my arguement. Bowen could be counted on to guard anyone. He could guard only Kobe one series, then he could take on multiple guys like Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Steve Nash in another series. Then he could take on Melo primaly but switch onto AI when needed. He could spend amost the entirety of a 7 game series checking Rip Hamilton and then switch onto Billups at the end of a game 7 and lock him down.
Point being, Bowen was the man and one of the greatest defenders of all time, regardless of Dirk's stats in a 2006 playoff series. And the Spurs do not have 5 rings if they did not have Bowen. There is a reason the Spurs retired the number of a guy that averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds. And the reason wasn't his shooting.
Spurs fans would bitch at him the way they do at Green for not making a basket on 3 attempts.
If it leads to three Championship rings and getting your number retired for the best organization in all of sports then yes it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
agreed and I thing we also all agree Bruce skills set is not adapted to today's nba tbh.. for one the refs would not allow him to play as physical as he was... put Bruce on Durant or Curry and he will be with his 6th fool in 5 mn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
again we are in line... just saying Jax would not maintain this level of defense intensity on the long run because it is not who he is and he was asked to carry more offensively. If I had to choose a defender between them I pick Bruce 10 out of 10 just because of consistencyQuote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
I believe Bruce is more hurt by advanced stats than Danny who has some elite def metricsQuote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
ok so you were speaking hypothetically taking into consideration the 2010s generation... sure but in the 00s there were not a lot of dudes capable to do what Bruce was doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Parker who is a good Bruce's friend liked to remember that when speaking about Bruce... Bruce was not an offensive scrub by any stretch... He was just focusing on what he was doing better i.e defense. This is his defense and his corner 3 that enabled him to become a NBA player, he never forgot that, never asked for more and was very humble and a great teammate. The perfect fit for the Spurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
Bowen's D was beyond his personal stats. But no one's D is beyond opponent stats. You are what you allow. You're not going to have a great defense that is league average in Oppg and DRtg. And Bowen's block was awesome and belongs in the pantheon of clutch plays made by Spurs perimeter defenders. But it's not particular exceptional when compared the the contributions Green and Leonard have made - already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
I never said Bowen was a bad defender. At all. But he couldn't guard 1-5 any better than Green and Leonard can.Quote:
You can't say he was a bad defender because of what Dirk averaged that series when Bowen was primarily on guys like J Howard and Jason Terry and only switched to Dirk in certain situations.
The Spurs STILL do all of those things. I mean you had Lillard, Batum and Wes, then Durant and Westbrook (and Jackson), then Lebron, Wade and Allen. That's what being a perimeter defender is all about. You can even just look at last game to see everyone Green was switched onto. And Kawhi shuts down half the floor.Quote:
That exacly is my arguement. Bowen could be counted on to guard anyone. He could guard only Kobe one series, then he could take on multiple guys like Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and Steve Nash in another series. Then he could take on Melo primaly but switch onto AI when needed. He could spend amost the entirety of a 7 game series checking Rip Hamilton and then switch onto Billups at the end of a game 7 and lock him down.
Well, Kawhi's almost certain to be retired as well. And Green's on pace for it, despite the visceral objection that will elicit from some. These are two all-time Spurs, so making it seem like Bowen has some untouchable place in Spurs' history that these guys can never get themselves is why I'm critiquing the Bowenites, not because they think Bowen was a great defender (because he was).Quote:
Point being, Bowen was the man and one of the greatest defenders of all time, regardless of Dirk's stats in a 2006 playoff series. And the Spurs do not have 5 rings if they did not have Bowen. There is a reason the Spurs retired the number of a guy that averaged 6 points and 3 rebounds. And the reason wasn't his shooting.
Oh, and imagine against Harden. But I think he'd be fine on Draymond, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
Nothing wrong with that. I'm just pointing out that that's what "checking Dirk" actually looks like.Quote:
again we are in line... just saying Jax would not maintain this level of defense intensity on the long run because it is not who he is and he was asked to carry more offensively. If I had to choose a defender between them I pick Bruce 10 out of 10 just because of consistency
I mean, this whole thread is hypothetical. We're talking about moving Bowen to this era. I think it's fair to point out that guys from this era could go back and defend at a high level 10 years ago.Quote:
ok so you were speaking hypothetically taking into consideration the 2010s generation... sure but in the 00s there were not a lot of dudes capable to do what Bruce was doing.
I agree about the great teammate stuff. Except for his whining about his number being retired, Bowen has been nothing but class since I've started following the NBA (AKA since he's stopped defending guess). I don't think it's particularly virtuous to "never ask for more" though. And Bowen worked hard to become more, which is probably the biggest credit to him. His three-point shooting wouldn't be good enough today, but at least he could reliably step in for a two.Quote:
Parker who is a good Bruce's friend liked to remember that when speaking about Bruce... Bruce was not an offensive scrub by any stretch... He was just focusing on what he was doing better i.e defense. This is his defense and his corner 3 that enabled him to become a NBA player, he never forgot that, never asked for more and was very humble and a great teammate. The perfect fit for the Spurs.
Huh? I never said Green and Leonard were not good defenders. If I did I could understand where you are coming from. But it just seems like you are trying to say Bowen wasn't as good as we remember him. Even though you admit your memories of him are not that good (WTF????).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
What I said was that fans today do not remember how great Bowen was defensively. After that it was you and Benoit that were trying to deminish what he did and tryng to say he wouldnt be good today because Kawhi and Green is on the team. What? That makes no sense. That is like saying Reggie Miller wouldn't be a good player if he played for the Warriors because of what Steph and Klay are doing for them now.
Bowen was one of the all time great defenders. Look into his matchups with Kobe, TMac, Melo, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, etc etc. Bowen is the man and having him on this team would help them match up with the Warriors (which was the original topic of this thread). Put him on Klay, Kawhi on Steph, and Green on Green. That would be awesome.
He wasn't, not in the global sense. He was perfect for the era, and he would probably have been awfully good with time nowadays. But the idea that what the team needs now is Prime Bowen to shut down Curry (and argument which has been made on this board more than once recently) is just ludicrous. Adding him and having that third guy would be awesome. But he wouldn't do a better job than the guys in place. It's that belief I was criticizing, not the general one that Bowen was great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
Please don't talk about the two of us like we said the same thing. My original post was saying I'd love to have Bruce to guard Draymond. And pretty much no one in this thread seriously think Bowen matches up well with Steph in a hypothetical match-up. so my only critical comment prior to your declaration was that Steph would drop 50 on him. And I'm hardly the only one who believes that, young or old.Quote:
What I said was that fans today do not remember how great Bowen was defensively. After that it was you and Benoit that were trying to deminish what he did and tryng to say he wouldnt be good today because Kawhi and Green is on the team. What? That makes no sense. That is like saying Reggie Miller wouldn't be a good player if he played for the Warriors because of what Steph and Klay are doing for them now.
I think you're selling current offensive players short. Green and Kawhi run their own gauntlet of scorers. Kawhi's already and all-time defender, and Green is truly underrated. As far as your match-ups, Kawhi isn't a great Steph defender. People overemphasize that game last year, but Green has been better historically. Bowen on Klay is fine, but he makes more sense on Green, since you want to save Leonard's legs.Quote:
Bowen was one of the all time great defenders. Look into his matchups with Kobe, TMac, Melo, Vince Carter, Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, etc etc. Bowen is the man and having him on this team would help them match up with the Warriors (which was the original topic of this thread). Put him on Klay, Kawhi on Steph, and Green on Green. That would be awesome.
I agree Curry would destroy Bruce tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
Heck even Dell Curry would destroy Bruce
Yup you see it too. That is how he operates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
The way to get him to give up is to just distill the argument and not let them off the hook. If you write walls of text then he will do a line by line and that just muddles the argument. He tries to talk stats and isn't very good at it. You're demonstrating that quite well here.
Has he even posted the stats he is making qualitative statements about yet? I cannot bring myself to read the line by line.
Um, yes, he was. He was one of the greatest defenders of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
I never claimed he would. Just that he was one of the greatest defenders of all time and the Spurs would have less than 5 rings if they did not have him.Quote:
But the idea that what the team needs now is Prime Bowen to shut down Curry (and argument which has been made on this board more than once recently) is just ludicrous. Adding him and having that third guy would be awesome. But he wouldn't do a better job than the guys in place. It's that belief I was criticizing, not the general one that Bowen was great.
Again, I never said he would be able to stop Steph. Just that he was one of the greatest defenders of all time and the Spurs would have less than 5 rings if they did not have him.Quote:
Please don't talk about the two of us like we said the same thing. My original post was saying I'd love to have Bruce to guard Draymond. And pretty much no one in this thread seriously think Bowen matches up well with Steph in a hypothetical match-up. so my only critical comment prior to your declaration was that Steph would drop 50 on him. And I'm hardly the only one who believes that, young or old.
How was I selling offensive players of today short by bringing up great offensive players that Bowen has guarded? Just because one recognizing past greatness doesn't mean they are bashing today's stars. I love Kawhi Leonard, he is going to be one of the best PLAYERS (both offensively and defensively) of ALL TIME. That doesn't diminish what Bowen did in his career. Again, there is a reason he was named to multiple All Defensive teams. There was a reason he has his number retired.Quote:
I think you're selling current offensive players short. Green and Kawhi run their own gauntlet of scorers. Kawhi's already and all-time defender, and Green is truly underrated. As far as your match-ups, Kawhi isn't a great Steph defender. People overemphasize that game last year, but Green has been better historically. Bowen on Klay is fine, but he makes more sense on Green, since you want to save Leonard's legs.
In the same way Dick Butkus was one of the best MLBs of all time. I don't have much of an issue with either of those statements, but I do bristle at people asserting that that makes him untouchable against modern athletes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
Okay, why are you assuming everything I said in that second post was about you? I never said you said those things. My critique of you was including guys like Dirk on the list of players Bowen defended when he was simply adequate on them. Then I took it further to point out that switching onto PFs is not a rare phenomenon. Green and Leonard do it to great success all the time.Quote:
I never claimed he would. Just that he was one of the greatest defenders of all time and the Spurs would have less than 5 rings if they did not have him.
Again, I never said he would be able to stop Steph. Just that he was one of the greatest defenders of all time and the Spurs would have less than 5 rings if they did not have him.
Again, you make it seem like I am saying Bowen sucked. Not at all. Bruce deserves his place in Spurs lore. But in 20 years, no one's going to consider him the best perimeter defender the Spurs have ever had (or the second best). And it's not going to be because people just don't understand how great he was. It'll be because people understand how great Wing Stop is/was. Robinson wasn't less great just because Tim is better. But people want to refuse to consider that Bowen isn't better than the Spurs current defenders, and that's the attitude I'm responding to.Quote:
How was I selling offensive players of today short by bringing up great offensive players that Bowen has guarded? Just because one recognizing past greatness doesn't mean they are bashing today's stars. I love Kawhi Leonard, he is going to be one of the best PLAYERS (both offensively and defensively) of ALL TIME. That doesn't diminish what Bowen did in his career. Again, there is a reason he was named to multiple All Defensive teams. There was a reason he has his number retired.
not sure I understand... last time I heard about number being retired it was Bruce saying he was fine with Lamarcus using its 12...Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
The Spurs didn't seem all too keen to retire Bowen's jersey at first, so he kind of had a public campaign to get it done. I actually think that had the Spurs held fast on Avery, 12 would have been free to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
Because you kept quoting me and trying to argue against basically every point I made about why Bowen is one of the greatest defenders of all time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chinook
No, you were the one making it seem like you were saying Bown sucks by constantly quoting and arguing against me and everything I said about Bowen being one of the greatest defenders of all time.Quote:
Again, you make it seem like I am saying Bowen sucked.
I just don't understand why you keep trying to argue with me?
So?Quote:
But in 20 years, no one's going to consider him the best perimeter defender the Spurs have ever had (or the second best). And it's not going to be because people just don't understand how great he was. It'll be because people understand how great Wing Stop is/was.
Wing Stop is awesome. But that doesn't diminish what Bowen has done in helping bring three titles to San Antonio. Bowen may not go down as the best Spurs defender ever (Kawhi easily will) but that doesn't change what he has done for the Spurs. Bowen is the man. He is one of the greatest defenders of all time and will always be one of the greatest defenders in NBA history. Which is what I have been saying this whole time.
But I wasn't one of those people saying he was better than Kawhi (he may be better than Green but it is very close), so I don't get why you keep quoting me and arguing against my points. As for your example, no one says D Rob isn't one of the best big men in NBA history ever just because Duncan was better. That would be like saying Dr. J wasn't a great scorer because Jordan was better.Quote:
Robinson wasn't less great just because Tim is better. But people want to refuse to consider that Bowen isn't better than the Spurs current defenders, and that's the attitude I'm responding to.
That is why I can say Bowen is one of the greatest defenders of all time, even though Kawhi and Green are too.
Your initial post wasn't about Bowen just being great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7
So it does imply that your arguments are supposed to contrast with Green and to a lesser extent Leonard. Our conversation IS about this comparison, as is the spirit of this thread. Bowen was great in his time, and he might have still been great in today's league (and no, that's not a given considering how different the players and officiating are). But he isn't mystical compared to the current guys. The only thing he had going for him is that he was by himself (even though Manu was a great defender when he was young), whereas Wing Stop has each other. But by most other measures, the Spurs shouldn't want to trade Green for Bowen -- even just defensively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dre_7