Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?

I believe he is for these (and many more) reasons:

1.) Nobody has been as much of an impact defender for as long as he has.
2.) He's been the anchor of the biggest defensive juggernaut since Bill Russell's Celtics.
3.) He was instrumental in the Spurs holding opponents to a field goal % of .4016, which is an NBA record.


Thoughts?

I'd say he's a Top 1 All-Time Defender, actually.

Always going to be underrated because of bowen

I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......

Agree. And his adaptability is amazing. What he does with literally one working leg is unseen. It shows that you don't need athleticism to be good on D (long hands, brains and timing).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

I'd say he's a Top 1 All-Time Defender, actually.

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This.

Best ever

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Always going to be underrated because of bowen

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Good point.

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

he's either 1 or 2. depending on what u think of Bill Russell's nba era.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steeledl

I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......

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That's fine with me.

Yes. Sadly, he won't ever be recognized as such because he never won a DPOY Award.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BatManu20

Yes. Sadly, he won't ever be recognized as such because he never won a DPOY Award.

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Which is criminal......he should have at least 4 of those trophies!!

Spurs as Spurs, career Defensive Win Shares, top 5, then current Spurs

1) Tim Duncan
2) David Robinson
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Tony Parker
5) Bruce Bowen

10) Kawhi Leonard
14) Danny Green
20) Matt Bonner
30) Boris Diaw
51) Patty Mills
83) LaMarcus Aldridge

Yes, and beyond the eye test you have a world of objective data that supports the idea. How he isn't sporting a MINIMUM of 2 DPOY awards is sickening when so many overrated "great" defenders (Gasol, Camby, Ibaka, Jordan, etc) who were/are good at certain things but were never complete defenders are hyped FAR more than timmy EVER was. He should've either won it or shared it with B. Wallace in 2004, and outright won it in 2007 (Camby lol) and 2013 (Gasol...good but overrated as hell).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by keeferob25

Yes, and beyond the eye test you have a world of objective data that supports the idea. How he isn't sporting a MINIMUM of 2 DPOY awards is sickening when so many overrated "great" defenders (Gasol, Camby, Ibaka, Jordan, etc) who were/are good at certain things but were never complete defenders are hyped FAR more than timmy EVER was. He should've either won it or shared it with B. Wallace in 2004, and outright won it in 2007 (Camby lol) and 2013 (Gasol...good but overrated as hell).

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I couldn't have said it better.

Never flashy or thuggish enough like Ben Wallace in TD's prime but just as effective...

he is an easy top 5 imo

in the mix, you have: russel (even though it's quite easy to look a great defender when you play an era full of short white dudes tbh), Hakeem, David, Pippen, Rodman, Wallace, Garnett.

only peak years add in it Lebron, Bruce, Dikembe, MJ but those guys did not do it for so long ... Kawhi is right there too

Payton is always cited in that list but it is more to get a PG down there than for defense value imho... quite overrated tbh

He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.

People are also going to look at kawhi who looks like hes on his way for a dpoy repeat and thats going to affect him negatively on defence too..

Tim Duncan led the league in Defensive Win Shares five years:
1998, 1999, 2001, 2006, 2007.

Ben Wallace led in 2004, Paul George in 2013, and Andre Drummond in 2015.

2004 Duncan was third behind Wallace and Garnett
2013 Duncan was fourth behind George, M.Gasol and Durant
2015 Leonard was second behind Drummond (Aldridge was 8th).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

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Wow! Number 2 to a guy that played against mildly athletic midgets with the exception of Wilt is pretty impressive.

Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lefty20

he's either 1 or 2. depending on what u think of Bill Russell's nba era.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

---

Dominique? Richard Jefferson?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

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Any defensive list where Dominique Wilkins is ahead of Bruce loses a very large amount of credibility

Tim is a very underrated, outstanding defender but cmon on the top 5 all time thing. You gotta get at least one DPOY.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steeledl

I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......

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/thread

Garnett, Ben Wallace, & Tim are the best defenders of their generation by a country mile. (Bowen was just a 1-on-1 defender & Artest had a short run)

Tim/Pippen are the best defenders to never win DPOY.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brazil

Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh

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Then I'll play the eye test.
I saw Russell play most of his career.
I've seen Duncan, since his first game at Wake Forest. Duncan was wow! good the first time he dominated Eric Montrose.
Russell always looked better.

BTW, have you ever read "tbh" is a post and didn't immediately deduct honesty posts?
Me neither.

Nothing in your post deserved to be diminished by "tbh."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BillMc

Dominique? Richard Jefferson?

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Long careers, weak as Spurs.
Dominique as a Hawk, and Jefferson as a Net were solid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blake

Any defensive list where Dominique Wilkins is ahead of Bruce loses a very large amount of credibility

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Anybody unaware of how unused and unimpressive Bowen was till his last year in Miami is probably a Spur homer who cannot distinguish rate stats from counting stats.
Bowen as a Spur was great. But Bruce's career was relatively short. Wilkins as a Spur, not so great.

As you remember watching the young Dominique in Atlanta, 'Nique was pretty impressive defensively. Moderately active, with hands in the right place. Can't think of a Spur, but a more interior Kevin Durant isn't far off. 57th all-time in steals, Bowen not in top #250. #182 all-time in blocks, Bowen not top #250.

I'll take Bowen's best years, but there's not many of them. There were many more pretty good Wilkins years.

Duncans defense is definitely underrated due to him never winning a Defensive player of the year award.



Check out the 1:40 mark of the video below. One of my favorite defensive sequences that I can remember.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IE

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

Then I'll play the eye test.
I saw Russell play most of his career.
I've seen Duncan, since his first game at Wake Forest. Duncan was wow! good the first time he dominated Eric Montrose.
Russell always looked better.

BTW, have you ever read "tbh" is a post and didn't immediately deduct honesty posts?
Me neither.

Nothing in your post deserved to be diminished by "tbh."

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:lol holy shit you must be old as fuck

I don't make the argument either that Tim is not better than Russel... as I said Russel is quite overrated due to era he played... was just noticing that defensive win shares kinda suck... even though I have no issue with putting Duncan from 1 to 3/4

BTW When I see tbh I immediately deduct person is more honest tbh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brazil

Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh

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Big Dummy, Win-Shares are cumulative.

Bowen played 24052 minutes & Nique played 38113 minutes so there is a difference of 14000 minutes which is more than half the total amount of minutes Bowen played in his ENTIRE career.

Essentially, Bowen would have had a DWS of over 50 if he played the same amount of minutes as Nique.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

Anybody unaware of how unused and unimpressive Bowen was till his last year in Miami is probably a Spur homer who cannot distinguish rate stats from counting stats.
Bowen as a Spur was great. But Bruce's career was relatively short. Wilkins as a Spur, not so great.

As you remember watching the young Dominique in Atlanta, 'Nique was pretty impressive defensively. Moderately active, with hands in the right place. Can't think of a Spur, but a more interior Kevin Durant isn't far off. 57th all-time in steals, Bowen not in top #250. #182 all-time in blocks, Bowen not top #250.

I'll take Bowen's best years, but there's not many of them. There were many more pretty good Wilkins years.

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Lol

Damn straight

Homer thread is homer

Duncan is also #2 all time in career defensive rating.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

People are also going to look at kawhi who looks like hes on his way for a dpoy repeat and thats going to affect him negatively on defence too..

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Not really because he's way past his prime now that Kawhi is in his.

I don't believe the Bowen argument either. He was more of a fan favorite among Spurs fans and an enemy of a few star players, but otherwise most people are not going to remember him. Without Duncan, he was a nobody.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

Big Dummy, Win-Shares are cumulative.

Bowen played 24052 minutes & Nique played 38113 minutes so there is a difference of 14000 minutes which is more than half the total amount of minutes Bowen played in his ENTIRE career.

Essentially, Bowen would have had a DWS of over 50 if he played the same amount of minutes as Nique.

---

big dummy that's exactly my point... :rolleyes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

---

Tony Parker :hat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Drom John

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

---

Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.

:lol Who are the two faggots that voted no?

Characterizing him as a top 5 all time defender is kind of an insult. He's easily top two, and there's an easy case to be made that he's GOAT by a wide margin.

When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.

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That is a brilliant idea!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Characterizing him as a top 5 all time defender is kind of an insult. He's easily top two, and there's an easy case to be made that he's GOAT by a wide margin.

When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.

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I believe that too, I was just being cautious.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Agloco

:lol Who are the two faggots that voted no?

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I see a 3rd person voted no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brazil

big dummy that's exactly my point... :rolleyes

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I guess your bitch ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.:wakeup

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J_Paco

He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.

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Agreed.

I've always said, the biggest award travesty in major North American professional sports, is Duncan not winning DPOY. He should have a bunch and the only reasons he doesn't, is 1) He doesn't look the part of a great defender and 2) The majority of the media/casual fans, know very little about defense and up until recently, the weren't nearly as many metrics for it as offense (even now, it still lags behind).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spurtacular

Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.

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He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.

Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):

Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:

		Player	MP	DWS	DWS/48 (x100)
1		Bill Russell*	40726	133.6	15.75
2		George Mikan*	8350	22.2	12.76
3		David Robinson*	34271	80.1	11.22
4		Tim Duncan	47042	105.8	10.80
5		Ben Wallace	32085	70.6	10.56
6		Tom Heinsohn*	19254	41.7	10.40
7		K.C. Jones*	17501	37.9	10.39
8		Hakeem Olajuwon*	44222	94.5	10.26
9		Arvydas Sabonis*	11375	23.3	9.83
10		Patrick Ewing*	40594	81.4	9.63
11		Tom Boerwinkle	14387	28.8	9.61
12		Dwight Howard	30581	60.3	9.46
13		Wilt Chamberlain*	47859	93.9	9.42
14		Marcus Camby	28684	54.9	9.19
15		Mark Eaton	25169	48.0	9.15
16		Paul George	11453	21.7	9.09
17		Tom Sanders*	22164	41.9	9.07
18		Dennis Rodman*	28839	54.5	9.07
19		Joakim Noah	16848	31.8	9.06
20		Dave Cowens*	29565	55.8	9.06
21		Dikembe Mutombo*	36791	68.5	8.94
22		Clifford Ray	19940	37.1	8.93
23		Bill Walton*	13250	24.6	8.91
24		Yao Ming	15818	29.3	8.89
25		Alonzo Mourning*	25975	48.0	8.87
26		Mel Daniels*	22466	41.2	8.80
27		Kevin Garnett	50418	91.5	8.71
28		Sam Jones*	24285	43.7	8.64
29		Manu Ginobili	24036	43.0	8.59
30		Wes Unseld*	35832	64.1	8.59
31		Shawn Kemp	29293	52.2	8.55
32		Tree Rollins	24028	42.1	8.41
33		George Johnson	18102	31.7	8.41
34		Nate Thurmond*	35881	62.2	8.32
35		Larry Bird*	34443	59.0	8.22
36		Len Elmore	12389	21.0	8.14
37		Chris Dudley	16321	27.6	8.12
38		Tony Allen	15496	26.2	8.12
39		Jermaine O'Neal	27364	46.1	8.09
40		Karl Malone*	54852	92.4	8.09
41		Bobby Jones	25728	43.2	8.06
42		Taj Gibson	12420	20.8	8.04
43		Elvin Hayes*	50000	83.7	8.04
44		DeAndre Jordan	15569	25.9	7.99
45		Frank Ramsey*	15330	25.4	7.95
46		Malik Rose	13404	22.2	7.95
47		Harvey Catchings	13182	21.8	7.94
48		Rich Kelley	17711	29.2	7.91
49		Alton Lister	18965	31.2	7.90
50		Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	57446	94.5	7.90
51		Jack Sikma	36943	60.7	7.89
52		Scottie Pippen*	41069	67.3	7.87
53		George McGinnis	28179	46.1	7.85
54		Julius Erving*	45227	73.8	7.83
55		Darryl Dawkins	17235	28.0	7.80
56		Dolph Schayes*	29800	48.3	7.78
57		Bob Cousy*	30165	48.7	7.75
58		Anderson Varejao	14858	23.9	7.72
59		Curtis Perry	13656	21.9	7.70
60		Alvan Adams	27203	43.6	7.69
61		Artis Gilmore*	47134	75.5	7.69
62		Rick Mahorn	25779	41.2	7.67
63		Robert Parish*	45704	73.0	7.67
64		Kendrick Perkins	16845	26.9	7.67
65		John Havlicek*	46471	74.1	7.65
66		Robert Horry	27069	43.1	7.64
67		Charlie Ward	14080	22.4	7.64
68		Shaquille O'Neal	41918	66.4	7.60
69		Shawn Bradley	19531	30.8	7.57
70		Rasheed Wallace	36243	57.1	7.56
71		Andrew Bogut	18662	29.4	7.56
72		Charles Oakley	40280	63.3	7.54
73		Greg Ostertag	14753	23.1	7.52
74		Rajon Rondo	20827	32.6	7.51
75		Gar Heard	19571	30.6	7.50
76		Vlade Divac	33838	52.9	7.50
77		Michael Jordan*	41011	64.1	7.50
78		Gerald Govan	22925	35.8	7.50
79		Kenyon Martin	23134	36.1	7.49
80		Chris Webber	30847	47.8	7.44
81		Jeff Foster	15750	24.3	7.41
82		Roy Hibbert	15367	23.7	7.40
83		Kurt Thomas	27160	41.8	7.39
84		Samuel Dalembert	21646	33.3	7.38
85		Jerome Kersey	28115	43.2	7.38
86		Larry Siegfried	13632	20.9	7.36
87		Shawn Marion	40097	61.3	7.34
88		Dave DeBusschere*	31202	47.7	7.34
89		Serge Ibaka	14723	22.5	7.34
90		Marvin Webster	13364	20.4	7.33
91		LeBron James	37991	57.9	7.32
92		Nate McMillan	20462	31.1	7.30
93		Paul Millsap	21784	32.9	7.25
94		Mel Counts	13723	20.7	7.24
95		Tyson Chandler	27726	41.7	7.22
96		Dan Roundfield	24210	36.4	7.22
97		Jason Kidd	50111	75.1	7.19
98		Marcin Gortat	14832	22.2	7.18
99		Kurt Rambis	16299	24.3	7.16
100		Marc Gasol	19190	28.5	7.13

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cjw

He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.

Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):

Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:

		Player	MP	DWS	DWS/48 (x100)
1		Bill Russell*	40726	133.6	15.75
2		George Mikan*	8350	22.2	12.76
3		David Robinson*	34271	80.1	11.22
4		Tim Duncan	47042	105.8	10.80
5		Ben Wallace	32085	70.6	10.56
6		Tom Heinsohn*	19254	41.7	10.40
7		K.C. Jones*	17501	37.9	10.39
8		Hakeem Olajuwon*	44222	94.5	10.26
9		Arvydas Sabonis*	11375	23.3	9.83
10		Patrick Ewing*	40594	81.4	9.63
11		Tom Boerwinkle	14387	28.8	9.61
12		Dwight Howard	30581	60.3	9.46
13		Wilt Chamberlain*	47859	93.9	9.42
14		Marcus Camby	28684	54.9	9.19
15		Mark Eaton	25169	48.0	9.15
16		Paul George	11453	21.7	9.09
17		Tom Sanders*	22164	41.9	9.07
18		Dennis Rodman*	28839	54.5	9.07
19		Joakim Noah	16848	31.8	9.06
20		Dave Cowens*	29565	55.8	9.06
21		Dikembe Mutombo*	36791	68.5	8.94
22		Clifford Ray	19940	37.1	8.93
23		Bill Walton*	13250	24.6	8.91
24		Yao Ming	15818	29.3	8.89
25		Alonzo Mourning*	25975	48.0	8.87
26		Mel Daniels*	22466	41.2	8.80
27		Kevin Garnett	50418	91.5	8.71
28		Sam Jones*	24285	43.7	8.64
29		Manu Ginobili	24036	43.0	8.59
30		Wes Unseld*	35832	64.1	8.59
31		Shawn Kemp	29293	52.2	8.55
32		Tree Rollins	24028	42.1	8.41
33		George Johnson	18102	31.7	8.41
34		Nate Thurmond*	35881	62.2	8.32
35		Larry Bird*	34443	59.0	8.22
36		Len Elmore	12389	21.0	8.14
37		Chris Dudley	16321	27.6	8.12
38		Tony Allen	15496	26.2	8.12
39		Jermaine O'Neal	27364	46.1	8.09
40		Karl Malone*	54852	92.4	8.09
41		Bobby Jones	25728	43.2	8.06
42		Taj Gibson	12420	20.8	8.04
43		Elvin Hayes*	50000	83.7	8.04
44		DeAndre Jordan	15569	25.9	7.99
45		Frank Ramsey*	15330	25.4	7.95
46		Malik Rose	13404	22.2	7.95
47		Harvey Catchings	13182	21.8	7.94
48		Rich Kelley	17711	29.2	7.91
49		Alton Lister	18965	31.2	7.90
50		Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*	57446	94.5	7.90
51		Jack Sikma	36943	60.7	7.89
52		Scottie Pippen*	41069	67.3	7.87
53		George McGinnis	28179	46.1	7.85
54		Julius Erving*	45227	73.8	7.83
55		Darryl Dawkins	17235	28.0	7.80
56		Dolph Schayes*	29800	48.3	7.78
57		Bob Cousy*	30165	48.7	7.75
58		Anderson Varejao	14858	23.9	7.72
59		Curtis Perry	13656	21.9	7.70
60		Alvan Adams	27203	43.6	7.69
61		Artis Gilmore*	47134	75.5	7.69
62		Rick Mahorn	25779	41.2	7.67
63		Robert Parish*	45704	73.0	7.67
64		Kendrick Perkins	16845	26.9	7.67
65		John Havlicek*	46471	74.1	7.65
66		Robert Horry	27069	43.1	7.64
67		Charlie Ward	14080	22.4	7.64
68		Shaquille O'Neal	41918	66.4	7.60
69		Shawn Bradley	19531	30.8	7.57
70		Rasheed Wallace	36243	57.1	7.56
71		Andrew Bogut	18662	29.4	7.56
72		Charles Oakley	40280	63.3	7.54
73		Greg Ostertag	14753	23.1	7.52
74		Rajon Rondo	20827	32.6	7.51
75		Gar Heard	19571	30.6	7.50
76		Vlade Divac	33838	52.9	7.50
77		Michael Jordan*	41011	64.1	7.50
78		Gerald Govan	22925	35.8	7.50
79		Kenyon Martin	23134	36.1	7.49
80		Chris Webber	30847	47.8	7.44
81		Jeff Foster	15750	24.3	7.41
82		Roy Hibbert	15367	23.7	7.40
83		Kurt Thomas	27160	41.8	7.39
84		Samuel Dalembert	21646	33.3	7.38
85		Jerome Kersey	28115	43.2	7.38
86		Larry Siegfried	13632	20.9	7.36
87		Shawn Marion	40097	61.3	7.34
88		Dave DeBusschere*	31202	47.7	7.34
89		Serge Ibaka	14723	22.5	7.34
90		Marvin Webster	13364	20.4	7.33
91		LeBron James	37991	57.9	7.32
92		Nate McMillan	20462	31.1	7.30
93		Paul Millsap	21784	32.9	7.25
94		Mel Counts	13723	20.7	7.24
95		Tyson Chandler	27726	41.7	7.22
96		Dan Roundfield	24210	36.4	7.22
97		Jason Kidd	50111	75.1	7.19
98		Marcin Gortat	14832	22.2	7.18
99		Kurt Rambis	16299	24.3	7.16
100		Marc Gasol	19190	28.5	7.13

---

Yea, that list is a better barometer. Good work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

I guess your bitch ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.:wakeup

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Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brazil

Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?

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Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleep

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleep

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you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...

Yes. #1 PF defender of all time. If you were making an all NBA defense historic team, Tim would be at PF. Before long Kawhi will be the other forward on that list.

If you consider his entire body of work, not his his peak vs other players' peaks, you'd have a hard time justifying leaving Tim out of that conversation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brazil

you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...

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Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lol

Easily..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lol

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I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...

1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me

4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla

DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...

anything else ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brazil

I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...

1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me

4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla

DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...

anything else ?

---

Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".

It's too late to save face::sleep

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".

It's too late to save face::sleep

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bruh I was referring to a freaking list posted just before... :lol I failed to acknowledge... I can say DWS is not a good metric but at the same time I would not know that DWS/48 exist or DBPM exist... smh

bruh DWS/48 is also flawed

BTW I continue on the notion that it is not a great metrics but not totally useless tbh...