-
Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
I believe he is for these (and many more) reasons:
1.) Nobody has been as much of an impact defender for as long as he has.
2.) He's been the anchor of the biggest defensive juggernaut since Bill Russell's Celtics.
3.) He was instrumental in the Spurs holding opponents to a field goal % of .4016, which is an NBA record.
Thoughts?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
I'd say he's a Top 1 All-Time Defender, actually.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Always going to be underrated because of bowen
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Agree. And his adaptability is amazing. What he does with literally one working leg is unseen. It shows that you don't need athleticism to be good on D (long hands, brains and timing).
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
will_spurs
I'd say he's a Top 1 All-Time Defender, actually.
This.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apalisoc_9
Always going to be underrated because of bowen
Good point.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares
1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain
That fits my eye test.
10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey
Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
he's either 1 or 2. depending on what u think of Bill Russell's nba era.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
steeledl
I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......
That's fine with me.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Yes. Sadly, he won't ever be recognized as such because he never won a DPOY Award.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BatManu20
Yes. Sadly, he won't ever be recognized as such because he never won a DPOY Award.
Which is criminal......he should have at least 4 of those trophies!!
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Spurs as Spurs, career Defensive Win Shares, top 5, then current Spurs
1) Tim Duncan
2) David Robinson
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Tony Parker
5) Bruce Bowen
10) Kawhi Leonard
14) Danny Green
20) Matt Bonner
30) Boris Diaw
51) Patty Mills
83) LaMarcus Aldridge
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Yes, and beyond the eye test you have a world of objective data that supports the idea. How he isn't sporting a MINIMUM of 2 DPOY awards is sickening when so many overrated "great" defenders (Gasol, Camby, Ibaka, Jordan, etc) who were/are good at certain things but were never complete defenders are hyped FAR more than timmy EVER was. He should've either won it or shared it with B. Wallace in 2004, and outright won it in 2007 (Camby lol) and 2013 (Gasol...good but overrated as hell).
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
keeferob25
Yes, and beyond the eye test you have a world of objective data that supports the idea. How he isn't sporting a MINIMUM of 2 DPOY awards is sickening when so many overrated "great" defenders (Gasol, Camby, Ibaka, Jordan, etc) who were/are good at certain things but were never complete defenders are hyped FAR more than timmy EVER was. He should've either won it or shared it with B. Wallace in 2004, and outright won it in 2007 (Camby lol) and 2013 (Gasol...good but overrated as hell).
I couldn't have said it better.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Never flashy or thuggish enough like Ben Wallace in TD's prime but just as effective...
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
he is an easy top 5 imo
in the mix, you have: russel (even though it's quite easy to look a great defender when you play an era full of short white dudes tbh), Hakeem, David, Pippen, Rodman, Wallace, Garnett.
only peak years add in it Lebron, Bruce, Dikembe, MJ but those guys did not do it for so long ... Kawhi is right there too
Payton is always cited in that list but it is more to get a PG down there than for defense value imho... quite overrated tbh
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
People are also going to look at kawhi who looks like hes on his way for a dpoy repeat and thats going to affect him negatively on defence too..
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Tim Duncan led the league in Defensive Win Shares five years:
1998, 1999, 2001, 2006, 2007.
Ben Wallace led in 2004, Paul George in 2013, and Andre Drummond in 2015.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
2004 Duncan was third behind Wallace and Garnett
2013 Duncan was fourth behind George, M.Gasol and Durant
2015 Leonard was second behind Drummond (Aldridge was 8th).
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares
1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain
That fits my eye test.
10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey
Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Wow! Number 2 to a guy that played against mildly athletic midgets with the exception of Wilt is pretty impressive.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lefty20
he's either 1 or 2. depending on what u think of Bill Russell's nba era.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares
1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain
That fits my eye test.
10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey
Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Dominique? Richard Jefferson?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares
1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain
That fits my eye test.
10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey
Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Any defensive list where Dominique Wilkins is ahead of Bruce loses a very large amount of credibility
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Tim is a very underrated, outstanding defender but cmon on the top 5 all time thing. You gotta get at least one DPOY.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
steeledl
I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......
/thread
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Garnett, Ben Wallace, & Tim are the best defenders of their generation by a country mile. (Bowen was just a 1-on-1 defender & Artest had a short run)
Tim/Pippen are the best defenders to never win DPOY.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brazil
Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh
Then I'll play the eye test.
I saw Russell play most of his career.
I've seen Duncan, since his first game at Wake Forest. Duncan was wow! good the first time he dominated Eric Montrose.
Russell always looked better.
BTW, have you ever read "tbh" is a post and didn't immediately deduct honesty posts?
Me neither.
Nothing in your post deserved to be diminished by "tbh."
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BillMc
Dominique? Richard Jefferson?
Long careers, weak as Spurs.
Dominique as a Hawk, and Jefferson as a Net were solid.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Blake
Any defensive list where Dominique Wilkins is ahead of Bruce loses a very large amount of credibility
Anybody unaware of how unused and unimpressive Bowen was till his last year in Miami is probably a Spur homer who cannot distinguish rate stats from counting stats.
Bowen as a Spur was great. But Bruce's career was relatively short. Wilkins as a Spur, not so great.
As you remember watching the young Dominique in Atlanta, 'Nique was pretty impressive defensively. Moderately active, with hands in the right place. Can't think of a Spur, but a more interior Kevin Durant isn't far off. 57th all-time in steals, Bowen not in top #250. #182 all-time in blocks, Bowen not top #250.
I'll take Bowen's best years, but there's not many of them. There were many more pretty good Wilkins years.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Duncans defense is definitely underrated due to him never winning a Defensive player of the year award.
Check out the 1:40 mark of the video below. One of my favorite defensive sequences that I can remember.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IE
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
Then I'll play the eye test.
I saw Russell play most of his career.
I've seen Duncan, since his first game at Wake Forest. Duncan was wow! good the first time he dominated Eric Montrose.
Russell always looked better.
BTW, have you ever read "tbh" is a post and didn't immediately deduct honesty posts?
Me neither.
Nothing in your post deserved to be diminished by "tbh."
:lol holy shit you must be old as fuck
I don't make the argument either that Tim is not better than Russel... as I said Russel is quite overrated due to era he played... was just noticing that defensive win shares kinda suck... even though I have no issue with putting Duncan from 1 to 3/4
BTW When I see tbh I immediately deduct person is more honest tbh
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brazil
Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh
Big Dummy, Win-Shares are cumulative.
Bowen played 24052 minutes & Nique played 38113 minutes so there is a difference of 14000 minutes which is more than half the total amount of minutes Bowen played in his ENTIRE career.
Essentially, Bowen would have had a DWS of over 50 if he played the same amount of minutes as Nique.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
Anybody unaware of how unused and unimpressive Bowen was till his last year in Miami is probably a Spur homer who cannot distinguish rate stats from counting stats.
Bowen as a Spur was great. But Bruce's career was relatively short. Wilkins as a Spur, not so great.
As you remember watching the young Dominique in Atlanta, 'Nique was pretty impressive defensively. Moderately active, with hands in the right place. Can't think of a Spur, but a more interior Kevin Durant isn't far off. 57th all-time in steals, Bowen not in top #250. #182 all-time in blocks, Bowen not top #250.
I'll take Bowen's best years, but there's not many of them. There were many more pretty good Wilkins years.
Lol
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Duncan is also #2 all time in career defensive rating.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apalisoc_9
People are also going to look at kawhi who looks like hes on his way for a dpoy repeat and thats going to affect him negatively on defence too..
Not really because he's way past his prime now that Kawhi is in his.
I don't believe the Bowen argument either. He was more of a fan favorite among Spurs fans and an enemy of a few star players, but otherwise most people are not going to remember him. Without Duncan, he was a nobody.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kawhitstorm
Big Dummy, Win-Shares are cumulative.
Bowen played 24052 minutes & Nique played 38113 minutes so there is a difference of 14000 minutes which is more than half the total amount of minutes Bowen played in his ENTIRE career.
Essentially, Bowen would have had a DWS of over 50 if he played the same amount of minutes as Nique.
big dummy that's exactly my point... :rolleyes
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares
1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain
That fits my eye test.
10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey
Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Tony Parker :hat
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Drom John
NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares
1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain
That fits my eye test.
10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey
Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
:lol Who are the two faggots that voted no?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Characterizing him as a top 5 all time defender is kind of an insult. He's easily top two, and there's an easy case to be made that he's GOAT by a wide margin.
When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Obstructed_View
When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.
That is a brilliant idea!
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Obstructed_View
Characterizing him as a top 5 all time defender is kind of an insult. He's easily top two, and there's an easy case to be made that he's GOAT by a wide margin.
When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.
I believe that too, I was just being cautious.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Agloco
:lol Who are the two faggots that voted no?
I see a 3rd person voted no.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brazil
big dummy that's exactly my point... :rolleyes
I guess your bitch ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.:wakeup
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J_Paco
He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.
Agreed.
I've always said, the biggest award travesty in major North American professional sports, is Duncan not winning DPOY. He should have a bunch and the only reasons he doesn't, is 1) He doesn't look the part of a great defender and 2) The majority of the media/casual fans, know very little about defense and up until recently, the weren't nearly as many metrics for it as offense (even now, it still lags behind).
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spurtacular
Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.
He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.
Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):
Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:
|
|
Player |
MP |
DWS |
DWS/48 (x100) |
| 1 |
|
Bill Russell* |
40726 |
133.6 |
15.75 |
| 2 |
|
George Mikan* |
8350 |
22.2 |
12.76 |
| 3 |
|
David Robinson* |
34271 |
80.1 |
11.22 |
| 4 |
|
Tim Duncan |
47042 |
105.8 |
10.80 |
| 5 |
|
Ben Wallace |
32085 |
70.6 |
10.56 |
| 6 |
|
Tom Heinsohn* |
19254 |
41.7 |
10.40 |
| 7 |
|
K.C. Jones* |
17501 |
37.9 |
10.39 |
| 8 |
|
Hakeem Olajuwon* |
44222 |
94.5 |
10.26 |
| 9 |
|
Arvydas Sabonis* |
11375 |
23.3 |
9.83 |
| 10 |
|
Patrick Ewing* |
40594 |
81.4 |
9.63 |
| 11 |
|
Tom Boerwinkle |
14387 |
28.8 |
9.61 |
| 12 |
|
Dwight Howard |
30581 |
60.3 |
9.46 |
| 13 |
|
Wilt Chamberlain* |
47859 |
93.9 |
9.42 |
| 14 |
|
Marcus Camby |
28684 |
54.9 |
9.19 |
| 15 |
|
Mark Eaton |
25169 |
48.0 |
9.15 |
| 16 |
|
Paul George |
11453 |
21.7 |
9.09 |
| 17 |
|
Tom Sanders* |
22164 |
41.9 |
9.07 |
| 18 |
|
Dennis Rodman* |
28839 |
54.5 |
9.07 |
| 19 |
|
Joakim Noah |
16848 |
31.8 |
9.06 |
| 20 |
|
Dave Cowens* |
29565 |
55.8 |
9.06 |
| 21 |
|
Dikembe Mutombo* |
36791 |
68.5 |
8.94 |
| 22 |
|
Clifford Ray |
19940 |
37.1 |
8.93 |
| 23 |
|
Bill Walton* |
13250 |
24.6 |
8.91 |
| 24 |
|
Yao Ming |
15818 |
29.3 |
8.89 |
| 25 |
|
Alonzo Mourning* |
25975 |
48.0 |
8.87 |
| 26 |
|
Mel Daniels* |
22466 |
41.2 |
8.80 |
| 27 |
|
Kevin Garnett |
50418 |
91.5 |
8.71 |
| 28 |
|
Sam Jones* |
24285 |
43.7 |
8.64 |
| 29 |
|
Manu Ginobili |
24036 |
43.0 |
8.59 |
| 30 |
|
Wes Unseld* |
35832 |
64.1 |
8.59 |
| 31 |
|
Shawn Kemp |
29293 |
52.2 |
8.55 |
| 32 |
|
Tree Rollins |
24028 |
42.1 |
8.41 |
| 33 |
|
George Johnson |
18102 |
31.7 |
8.41 |
| 34 |
|
Nate Thurmond* |
35881 |
62.2 |
8.32 |
| 35 |
|
Larry Bird* |
34443 |
59.0 |
8.22 |
| 36 |
|
Len Elmore |
12389 |
21.0 |
8.14 |
| 37 |
|
Chris Dudley |
16321 |
27.6 |
8.12 |
| 38 |
|
Tony Allen |
15496 |
26.2 |
8.12 |
| 39 |
|
Jermaine O'Neal |
27364 |
46.1 |
8.09 |
| 40 |
|
Karl Malone* |
54852 |
92.4 |
8.09 |
| 41 |
|
Bobby Jones |
25728 |
43.2 |
8.06 |
| 42 |
|
Taj Gibson |
12420 |
20.8 |
8.04 |
| 43 |
|
Elvin Hayes* |
50000 |
83.7 |
8.04 |
| 44 |
|
DeAndre Jordan |
15569 |
25.9 |
7.99 |
| 45 |
|
Frank Ramsey* |
15330 |
25.4 |
7.95 |
| 46 |
|
Malik Rose |
13404 |
22.2 |
7.95 |
| 47 |
|
Harvey Catchings |
13182 |
21.8 |
7.94 |
| 48 |
|
Rich Kelley |
17711 |
29.2 |
7.91 |
| 49 |
|
Alton Lister |
18965 |
31.2 |
7.90 |
| 50 |
|
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* |
57446 |
94.5 |
7.90 |
| 51 |
|
Jack Sikma |
36943 |
60.7 |
7.89 |
| 52 |
|
Scottie Pippen* |
41069 |
67.3 |
7.87 |
| 53 |
|
George McGinnis |
28179 |
46.1 |
7.85 |
| 54 |
|
Julius Erving* |
45227 |
73.8 |
7.83 |
| 55 |
|
Darryl Dawkins |
17235 |
28.0 |
7.80 |
| 56 |
|
Dolph Schayes* |
29800 |
48.3 |
7.78 |
| 57 |
|
Bob Cousy* |
30165 |
48.7 |
7.75 |
| 58 |
|
Anderson Varejao |
14858 |
23.9 |
7.72 |
| 59 |
|
Curtis Perry |
13656 |
21.9 |
7.70 |
| 60 |
|
Alvan Adams |
27203 |
43.6 |
7.69 |
| 61 |
|
Artis Gilmore* |
47134 |
75.5 |
7.69 |
| 62 |
|
Rick Mahorn |
25779 |
41.2 |
7.67 |
| 63 |
|
Robert Parish* |
45704 |
73.0 |
7.67 |
| 64 |
|
Kendrick Perkins |
16845 |
26.9 |
7.67 |
| 65 |
|
John Havlicek* |
46471 |
74.1 |
7.65 |
| 66 |
|
Robert Horry |
27069 |
43.1 |
7.64 |
| 67 |
|
Charlie Ward |
14080 |
22.4 |
7.64 |
| 68 |
|
Shaquille O'Neal |
41918 |
66.4 |
7.60 |
| 69 |
|
Shawn Bradley |
19531 |
30.8 |
7.57 |
| 70 |
|
Rasheed Wallace |
36243 |
57.1 |
7.56 |
| 71 |
|
Andrew Bogut |
18662 |
29.4 |
7.56 |
| 72 |
|
Charles Oakley |
40280 |
63.3 |
7.54 |
| 73 |
|
Greg Ostertag |
14753 |
23.1 |
7.52 |
| 74 |
|
Rajon Rondo |
20827 |
32.6 |
7.51 |
| 75 |
|
Gar Heard |
19571 |
30.6 |
7.50 |
| 76 |
|
Vlade Divac |
33838 |
52.9 |
7.50 |
| 77 |
|
Michael Jordan* |
41011 |
64.1 |
7.50 |
| 78 |
|
Gerald Govan |
22925 |
35.8 |
7.50 |
| 79 |
|
Kenyon Martin |
23134 |
36.1 |
7.49 |
| 80 |
|
Chris Webber |
30847 |
47.8 |
7.44 |
| 81 |
|
Jeff Foster |
15750 |
24.3 |
7.41 |
| 82 |
|
Roy Hibbert |
15367 |
23.7 |
7.40 |
| 83 |
|
Kurt Thomas |
27160 |
41.8 |
7.39 |
| 84 |
|
Samuel Dalembert |
21646 |
33.3 |
7.38 |
| 85 |
|
Jerome Kersey |
28115 |
43.2 |
7.38 |
| 86 |
|
Larry Siegfried |
13632 |
20.9 |
7.36 |
| 87 |
|
Shawn Marion |
40097 |
61.3 |
7.34 |
| 88 |
|
Dave DeBusschere* |
31202 |
47.7 |
7.34 |
| 89 |
|
Serge Ibaka |
14723 |
22.5 |
7.34 |
| 90 |
|
Marvin Webster |
13364 |
20.4 |
7.33 |
| 91 |
|
LeBron James |
37991 |
57.9 |
7.32 |
| 92 |
|
Nate McMillan |
20462 |
31.1 |
7.30 |
| 93 |
|
Paul Millsap |
21784 |
32.9 |
7.25 |
| 94 |
|
Mel Counts |
13723 |
20.7 |
7.24 |
| 95 |
|
Tyson Chandler |
27726 |
41.7 |
7.22 |
| 96 |
|
Dan Roundfield |
24210 |
36.4 |
7.22 |
| 97 |
|
Jason Kidd |
50111 |
75.1 |
7.19 |
| 98 |
|
Marcin Gortat |
14832 |
22.2 |
7.18 |
| 99 |
|
Kurt Rambis |
16299 |
24.3 |
7.16 |
| 100 |
|
Marc Gasol |
19190 |
28.5 |
7.13 |
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
cjw
He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.
Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):
Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:
|
|
Player |
MP |
DWS |
DWS/48 (x100) |
| 1 |
|
Bill Russell* |
40726 |
133.6 |
15.75 |
| 2 |
|
George Mikan* |
8350 |
22.2 |
12.76 |
| 3 |
|
David Robinson* |
34271 |
80.1 |
11.22 |
| 4 |
|
Tim Duncan |
47042 |
105.8 |
10.80 |
| 5 |
|
Ben Wallace |
32085 |
70.6 |
10.56 |
| 6 |
|
Tom Heinsohn* |
19254 |
41.7 |
10.40 |
| 7 |
|
K.C. Jones* |
17501 |
37.9 |
10.39 |
| 8 |
|
Hakeem Olajuwon* |
44222 |
94.5 |
10.26 |
| 9 |
|
Arvydas Sabonis* |
11375 |
23.3 |
9.83 |
| 10 |
|
Patrick Ewing* |
40594 |
81.4 |
9.63 |
| 11 |
|
Tom Boerwinkle |
14387 |
28.8 |
9.61 |
| 12 |
|
Dwight Howard |
30581 |
60.3 |
9.46 |
| 13 |
|
Wilt Chamberlain* |
47859 |
93.9 |
9.42 |
| 14 |
|
Marcus Camby |
28684 |
54.9 |
9.19 |
| 15 |
|
Mark Eaton |
25169 |
48.0 |
9.15 |
| 16 |
|
Paul George |
11453 |
21.7 |
9.09 |
| 17 |
|
Tom Sanders* |
22164 |
41.9 |
9.07 |
| 18 |
|
Dennis Rodman* |
28839 |
54.5 |
9.07 |
| 19 |
|
Joakim Noah |
16848 |
31.8 |
9.06 |
| 20 |
|
Dave Cowens* |
29565 |
55.8 |
9.06 |
| 21 |
|
Dikembe Mutombo* |
36791 |
68.5 |
8.94 |
| 22 |
|
Clifford Ray |
19940 |
37.1 |
8.93 |
| 23 |
|
Bill Walton* |
13250 |
24.6 |
8.91 |
| 24 |
|
Yao Ming |
15818 |
29.3 |
8.89 |
| 25 |
|
Alonzo Mourning* |
25975 |
48.0 |
8.87 |
| 26 |
|
Mel Daniels* |
22466 |
41.2 |
8.80 |
| 27 |
|
Kevin Garnett |
50418 |
91.5 |
8.71 |
| 28 |
|
Sam Jones* |
24285 |
43.7 |
8.64 |
| 29 |
|
Manu Ginobili |
24036 |
43.0 |
8.59 |
| 30 |
|
Wes Unseld* |
35832 |
64.1 |
8.59 |
| 31 |
|
Shawn Kemp |
29293 |
52.2 |
8.55 |
| 32 |
|
Tree Rollins |
24028 |
42.1 |
8.41 |
| 33 |
|
George Johnson |
18102 |
31.7 |
8.41 |
| 34 |
|
Nate Thurmond* |
35881 |
62.2 |
8.32 |
| 35 |
|
Larry Bird* |
34443 |
59.0 |
8.22 |
| 36 |
|
Len Elmore |
12389 |
21.0 |
8.14 |
| 37 |
|
Chris Dudley |
16321 |
27.6 |
8.12 |
| 38 |
|
Tony Allen |
15496 |
26.2 |
8.12 |
| 39 |
|
Jermaine O'Neal |
27364 |
46.1 |
8.09 |
| 40 |
|
Karl Malone* |
54852 |
92.4 |
8.09 |
| 41 |
|
Bobby Jones |
25728 |
43.2 |
8.06 |
| 42 |
|
Taj Gibson |
12420 |
20.8 |
8.04 |
| 43 |
|
Elvin Hayes* |
50000 |
83.7 |
8.04 |
| 44 |
|
DeAndre Jordan |
15569 |
25.9 |
7.99 |
| 45 |
|
Frank Ramsey* |
15330 |
25.4 |
7.95 |
| 46 |
|
Malik Rose |
13404 |
22.2 |
7.95 |
| 47 |
|
Harvey Catchings |
13182 |
21.8 |
7.94 |
| 48 |
|
Rich Kelley |
17711 |
29.2 |
7.91 |
| 49 |
|
Alton Lister |
18965 |
31.2 |
7.90 |
| 50 |
|
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* |
57446 |
94.5 |
7.90 |
| 51 |
|
Jack Sikma |
36943 |
60.7 |
7.89 |
| 52 |
|
Scottie Pippen* |
41069 |
67.3 |
7.87 |
| 53 |
|
George McGinnis |
28179 |
46.1 |
7.85 |
| 54 |
|
Julius Erving* |
45227 |
73.8 |
7.83 |
| 55 |
|
Darryl Dawkins |
17235 |
28.0 |
7.80 |
| 56 |
|
Dolph Schayes* |
29800 |
48.3 |
7.78 |
| 57 |
|
Bob Cousy* |
30165 |
48.7 |
7.75 |
| 58 |
|
Anderson Varejao |
14858 |
23.9 |
7.72 |
| 59 |
|
Curtis Perry |
13656 |
21.9 |
7.70 |
| 60 |
|
Alvan Adams |
27203 |
43.6 |
7.69 |
| 61 |
|
Artis Gilmore* |
47134 |
75.5 |
7.69 |
| 62 |
|
Rick Mahorn |
25779 |
41.2 |
7.67 |
| 63 |
|
Robert Parish* |
45704 |
73.0 |
7.67 |
| 64 |
|
Kendrick Perkins |
16845 |
26.9 |
7.67 |
| 65 |
|
John Havlicek* |
46471 |
74.1 |
7.65 |
| 66 |
|
Robert Horry |
27069 |
43.1 |
7.64 |
| 67 |
|
Charlie Ward |
14080 |
22.4 |
7.64 |
| 68 |
|
Shaquille O'Neal |
41918 |
66.4 |
7.60 |
| 69 |
|
Shawn Bradley |
19531 |
30.8 |
7.57 |
| 70 |
|
Rasheed Wallace |
36243 |
57.1 |
7.56 |
| 71 |
|
Andrew Bogut |
18662 |
29.4 |
7.56 |
| 72 |
|
Charles Oakley |
40280 |
63.3 |
7.54 |
| 73 |
|
Greg Ostertag |
14753 |
23.1 |
7.52 |
| 74 |
|
Rajon Rondo |
20827 |
32.6 |
7.51 |
| 75 |
|
Gar Heard |
19571 |
30.6 |
7.50 |
| 76 |
|
Vlade Divac |
33838 |
52.9 |
7.50 |
| 77 |
|
Michael Jordan* |
41011 |
64.1 |
7.50 |
| 78 |
|
Gerald Govan |
22925 |
35.8 |
7.50 |
| 79 |
|
Kenyon Martin |
23134 |
36.1 |
7.49 |
| 80 |
|
Chris Webber |
30847 |
47.8 |
7.44 |
| 81 |
|
Jeff Foster |
15750 |
24.3 |
7.41 |
| 82 |
|
Roy Hibbert |
15367 |
23.7 |
7.40 |
| 83 |
|
Kurt Thomas |
27160 |
41.8 |
7.39 |
| 84 |
|
Samuel Dalembert |
21646 |
33.3 |
7.38 |
| 85 |
|
Jerome Kersey |
28115 |
43.2 |
7.38 |
| 86 |
|
Larry Siegfried |
13632 |
20.9 |
7.36 |
| 87 |
|
Shawn Marion |
40097 |
61.3 |
7.34 |
| 88 |
|
Dave DeBusschere* |
31202 |
47.7 |
7.34 |
| 89 |
|
Serge Ibaka |
14723 |
22.5 |
7.34 |
| 90 |
|
Marvin Webster |
13364 |
20.4 |
7.33 |
| 91 |
|
LeBron James |
37991 |
57.9 |
7.32 |
| 92 |
|
Nate McMillan |
20462 |
31.1 |
7.30 |
| 93 |
|
Paul Millsap |
21784 |
32.9 |
7.25 |
| 94 |
|
Mel Counts |
13723 |
20.7 |
7.24 |
| 95 |
|
Tyson Chandler |
27726 |
41.7 |
7.22 |
| 96 |
|
Dan Roundfield |
24210 |
36.4 |
7.22 |
| 97 |
|
Jason Kidd |
50111 |
75.1 |
7.19 |
| 98 |
|
Marcin Gortat |
14832 |
22.2 |
7.18 |
| 99 |
|
Kurt Rambis |
16299 |
24.3 |
7.16 |
| 100 |
|
Marc Gasol |
19190 |
28.5 |
7.13 |
Yea, that list is a better barometer. Good work.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kawhitstorm
I guess your bitch ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.:wakeup
Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brazil
Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?
Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleep
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kawhitstorm
Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleep
you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Yes. #1 PF defender of all time. If you were making an all NBA defense historic team, Tim would be at PF. Before long Kawhi will be the other forward on that list.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
If you consider his entire body of work, not his his peak vs other players' peaks, you'd have a hard time justifying leaving Tim out of that conversation.
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brazil
you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...
Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lol
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kawhitstorm
Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lol
I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...
1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me
4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla
DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...
anything else ?
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Brazil
I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...
1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me
4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla
DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...
anything else ?
Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".
It's too late to save face::sleep
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kawhitstorm
Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".
It's too late to save face::sleep
bruh I was referring to a freaking list posted just before... :lol I failed to acknowledge... I can say DWS is not a good metric but at the same time I would not know that DWS/48 exist or DBPM exist... smh
bruh DWS/48 is also flawed
-
Re: Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?
BTW I continue on the notion that it is not a great metrics but not totally useless tbh...