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Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Paco
I've always said, the biggest award travesty in major North American professional sports, is Duncan not winning DPOY. He should have a bunch and the only reasons he doesn't, is 1) He doesn't look the part of a great defender and 2) The majority of the media/casual fans, know very little about defense and up until recently, the weren't nearly as many metrics for it as offense (even now, it still lags behind).
He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spurtacular
Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):
Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:
Player MP DWS DWS/48 (x100) 1 Bill Russell* 40726 133.6 15.75 2 George Mikan* 8350 22.2 12.76 3 David Robinson* 34271 80.1 11.22 4 Tim Duncan 47042 105.8 10.80 5 Ben Wallace 32085 70.6 10.56 6 Tom Heinsohn* 19254 41.7 10.40 7 K.C. Jones* 17501 37.9 10.39 8 Hakeem Olajuwon* 44222 94.5 10.26 9 Arvydas Sabonis* 11375 23.3 9.83 10 Patrick Ewing* 40594 81.4 9.63 11 Tom Boerwinkle 14387 28.8 9.61 12 Dwight Howard 30581 60.3 9.46 13 Wilt Chamberlain* 47859 93.9 9.42 14 Marcus Camby 28684 54.9 9.19 15 Mark Eaton 25169 48.0 9.15 16 Paul George 11453 21.7 9.09 17 Tom Sanders* 22164 41.9 9.07 18 Dennis Rodman* 28839 54.5 9.07 19 Joakim Noah 16848 31.8 9.06 20 Dave Cowens* 29565 55.8 9.06 21 Dikembe Mutombo* 36791 68.5 8.94 22 Clifford Ray 19940 37.1 8.93 23 Bill Walton* 13250 24.6 8.91 24 Yao Ming 15818 29.3 8.89 25 Alonzo Mourning* 25975 48.0 8.87 26 Mel Daniels* 22466 41.2 8.80 27 Kevin Garnett 50418 91.5 8.71 28 Sam Jones* 24285 43.7 8.64 29 Manu Ginobili 24036 43.0 8.59 30 Wes Unseld* 35832 64.1 8.59 31 Shawn Kemp 29293 52.2 8.55 32 Tree Rollins 24028 42.1 8.41 33 George Johnson 18102 31.7 8.41 34 Nate Thurmond* 35881 62.2 8.32 35 Larry Bird* 34443 59.0 8.22 36 Len Elmore 12389 21.0 8.14 37 Chris Dudley 16321 27.6 8.12 38 Tony Allen 15496 26.2 8.12 39 Jermaine O'Neal 27364 46.1 8.09 40 Karl Malone* 54852 92.4 8.09 41 Bobby Jones 25728 43.2 8.06 42 Taj Gibson 12420 20.8 8.04 43 Elvin Hayes* 50000 83.7 8.04 44 DeAndre Jordan 15569 25.9 7.99 45 Frank Ramsey* 15330 25.4 7.95 46 Malik Rose 13404 22.2 7.95 47 Harvey Catchings 13182 21.8 7.94 48 Rich Kelley 17711 29.2 7.91 49 Alton Lister 18965 31.2 7.90 50 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 57446 94.5 7.90 51 Jack Sikma 36943 60.7 7.89 52 Scottie Pippen* 41069 67.3 7.87 53 George McGinnis 28179 46.1 7.85 54 Julius Erving* 45227 73.8 7.83 55 Darryl Dawkins 17235 28.0 7.80 56 Dolph Schayes* 29800 48.3 7.78 57 Bob Cousy* 30165 48.7 7.75 58 Anderson Varejao 14858 23.9 7.72 59 Curtis Perry 13656 21.9 7.70 60 Alvan Adams 27203 43.6 7.69 61 Artis Gilmore* 47134 75.5 7.69 62 Rick Mahorn 25779 41.2 7.67 63 Robert Parish* 45704 73.0 7.67 64 Kendrick Perkins 16845 26.9 7.67 65 John Havlicek* 46471 74.1 7.65 66 Robert Horry 27069 43.1 7.64 67 Charlie Ward 14080 22.4 7.64 68 Shaquille O'Neal 41918 66.4 7.60 69 Shawn Bradley 19531 30.8 7.57 70 Rasheed Wallace 36243 57.1 7.56 71 Andrew Bogut 18662 29.4 7.56 72 Charles Oakley 40280 63.3 7.54 73 Greg Ostertag 14753 23.1 7.52 74 Rajon Rondo 20827 32.6 7.51 75 Gar Heard 19571 30.6 7.50 76 Vlade Divac 33838 52.9 7.50 77 Michael Jordan* 41011 64.1 7.50 78 Gerald Govan 22925 35.8 7.50 79 Kenyon Martin 23134 36.1 7.49 80 Chris Webber 30847 47.8 7.44 81 Jeff Foster 15750 24.3 7.41 82 Roy Hibbert 15367 23.7 7.40 83 Kurt Thomas 27160 41.8 7.39 84 Samuel Dalembert 21646 33.3 7.38 85 Jerome Kersey 28115 43.2 7.38 86 Larry Siegfried 13632 20.9 7.36 87 Shawn Marion 40097 61.3 7.34 88 Dave DeBusschere* 31202 47.7 7.34 89 Serge Ibaka 14723 22.5 7.34 90 Marvin Webster 13364 20.4 7.33 91 LeBron James 37991 57.9 7.32 92 Nate McMillan 20462 31.1 7.30 93 Paul Millsap 21784 32.9 7.25 94 Mel Counts 13723 20.7 7.24 95 Tyson Chandler 27726 41.7 7.22 96 Dan Roundfield 24210 36.4 7.22 97 Jason Kidd 50111 75.1 7.19 98 Marcin Gortat 14832 22.2 7.18 99 Kurt Rambis 16299 24.3 7.16 100 Marc Gasol 19190 28.5 7.13
Yea, that list is a better barometer. Good work.Quote:
Originally Posted by cjw
Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleepQuote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
Yes. #1 PF defender of all time. If you were making an all NBA defense historic team, Tim would be at PF. Before long Kawhi will be the other forward on that list.
If you consider his entire body of work, not his his peak vs other players' peaks, you'd have a hard time justifying leaving Tim out of that conversation.
Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
Easily..
I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me
4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla
DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...
anything else ?
Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".Quote:
Originally Posted by Brazil
It's too late to save face::sleep
bruh I was referring to a freaking list posted just before... :lol I failed to acknowledge... I can say DWS is not a good metric but at the same time I would not know that DWS/48 exist or DBPM exist... smhQuote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
bruh DWS/48 is also flawed
BTW I continue on the notion that it is not a great metrics but not totally useless tbh...