And people think Wardell is a run away MVP candidate just because he makes threes. These two players are closer than the media thinks when you consider the total package.
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And people think Wardell is a run away MVP candidate just because he makes threes. These two players are closer than the media thinks when you consider the total package.
Not sure if this is a bait for that throlden guy, but lol if you're being serious. Curry is about to shatter the PER record, among other records and he's leading his team to the best record in history. He's averaging 30 ppg on 50%+, the last two guys to do that? KD in 2014, and MJ in 92. Both won MVP.
yep ... advanced statistics will not win MVP ... Curry will win and deservingly so
Pretty sure Curry could sit the rest of the season and still win it.
Its for sure a lot closer, people have crownes curry MVP though adternthe 24 game winning streak.. so its useless to talk about it.
Kawhi is a tattooed 'nigga' with cornrows who lives in San Antonio..his brand of quite dominance is going to suffer exposure-wise a la Duncan..Even if next year Curry comes down to earth, and Leonard replicates or improve upon his season, he will have somebody giving him run for his money more than he should..like watch a 48-win Pelican team has Davis as frontrunner for MVP in 2017 just because he is emptily swatting it in the stands..
Meh, I'm sure it has more to do with Kawhi's underwhelming (by MVP standards) box score numbers, which we all know many people still use to judge players :lol Since the 3-point era, only Nash has won MVP while averaging fewer points than what Kawhi is averaging this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by spursistan
I mean sure, Kawhi's demeanor + him playing in SA might play some role in how the media views him...but to act like that's the main reason why he isn't getting as much coverage as Steph is pretty dumb IMO.
Steph is leading the league in scoring and TS%. That's only been done once in the history of the league. We all know the media cares more about offense than defense, so while Kawhi might be having a DPOTY-caliber year, that unfortunately isn't going to matter as much as having arguably the GOAT offensive season like Steph is doing. Factor in the Warriors being on pace to break the single season record for wins, and that seals the deal.
I think those things matter far more than Kawhi being a "tattooed nigga" :rolleyes
I will say that Kawhi has brought the race much closer than I ever expected him to...a while back when OP brought this up I thought it wasn't even a discussion. Kawhi has forced his way into the race and I do think he might get a few votes (maybe even more than that if the Spurs manage to win 2 or even 3 of these last games vs. GS), although I still think Steph is the clear-cut choice and should win MVP.
Curry is a great player and very entertaining. He's got the entire Media at the palm of his hands, everyone is in love with him.
BUT, if you think on purely basketball, you have a guy who is outstanding on offense and good on defense (Curry). Then you have another guy is great on offense and outstanding on defense (Kawhi).
You say Curry avgs 30ppg. Yeah that'll happen when you attempt more 3's then you do 2's for the year. Curry has shot over 700 three pointers for the year. Thats almost 500 more than Leonard. Plus, with Currys team, if they aint scoring OVER 100, they aint winning. Of all the games the warriors have failed to score 100 or more, they have lost all but one. Granted it was only a handful of times but its obvious they base their entire game on 3 point shooting.
And last, Most people would say that the best thing Curry does is 3 pt shooting. Well Kawhi is better at that as well % wise.
Maybe Kawhi should stop driving to the hole, and posting up and taking mid range jumpers and just shoot 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3 after 3. Then maybe he will get the attention he deserves. Oh and don't forget the chest pumping.
Muh nigga. :hatQuote:
Originally Posted by TDomination
I have never seen a player improve his basketball skills more than this kid. Maybe Hakeem because he started so late. The game against the Thunder he actually got knocked sideways while dribbling, fell to his side, did a Curly Neal and got right back up as if it was nothing. We looked at him as a defensive player/athlete in the draft and got so much more out of him. I know we have the guys to train him but good God...
We need him to hit a couple of game winners in the playoffs. I think this would elevate him to the next level.
The thing is, Curry isn't just "outstanding" on offense. He's having arguably the greatest offensive season of all-time. As amazing as Kawhi is on defense, his defense isn't particularly close to being as valuable as Curry's offense.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDomination
You act like Curry averaging 30 ppg is just a result of him chucking up a ton of shots. Of all the players in the history of the league to average 30+ ppg in a season, only 2 players have done so while taking fewer shots. He's having the most efficient 30+ ppg season of all-time with a 68 TS%. Like I said in my first post, he's on pace to be the 2nd player in NBA history to lead the league in PPG and TS% in the same season. Having that sort of efficiency while scoring with that volume is unheard of.
Sorry but it's ridiculous to point out how Kawhi is shooting better % from 3 and say "well if Kawhi just took more 3s he could get as much attention as Curry!". Curry is taking almost 3 times as many 3s as Kawhi. 55% of Curry's 3s are assisted; 88% of Kawhi's 3s are assisted. Do you really think Kawhi could take 11 3s a game and continue shooting 46%? Of course not. No one in the history of the league could/can do what Curry is doing now. Keep in mind Curry is doing all of this while teams are tuning their entire defensive schemes to stop him. Not saying that teams aren't focusing on Kawhi, but let's be real...the amount of attention Kawhi draws on offense isn't even close in comparison to Curry.
I agree that Curry has the media wrapped around his finger and that he's the sweetheart of the league right now...But come on, there's at least a reason everyone is obsessed with him right now. He's doing shit that no one has ever seen before. He's making guys like Ray Allen and Reggie Miller look like scrubs in comparison when talking about shooting. By pretty much every metric out there, Curry is having a top 5-10 season of all-time. Throw in the Warriors being 61-6 and you have your MVP.
Lol :cry curry only scores so much because he's attempted so many threes
Let's see how successful Leonard would be if he put up 700 three point attempts
Curry is a faggot.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
Sorry fam...I understand your point but you have sold Curry massively short...he hasnt been "outstanding" on offense...he's been HISTORIC on offense...look back at history's greatest offensive forces...and this guy is shattering ALL OF THEM. You are simply saying "all he does is shoot 3's" as if that should be some sort of penalty against him. He's revolutionized the 3 point shot as a weapon. He's LITERALLY a threat the second he crosses the half court line. Please tell me who in the history of the game has been able to have that said about them. They WILL break the Bulls regular season record. We all know it. That's beyond incredible because there are MANY that thought that was impossible in this more modern era. Think about the fact that the Miami heat couldn't even do it in a ridiculously WEAK conference with two mega superstars and an allstar.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDomination
He'd make 328 threes.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
Curry has a huge comfort zone on these shots. KLs are much more selective. KL would be forcing 3s if he took this many.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by 100%duncan
Arguing only serves our entertaining.
All of you know, deep in your hearts, Curry is the obvious MVP.
He's ruining the game and I wish he missed all the bad shots he takes, but still MVP.
Thanks for the reply. Just curious, where do you get the TS% from?Quote:
Originally Posted by SpursFan86
Before Curry started shooting so many 3's his first few years, i'm sure most would have said that if he were to shoot 400 more 3's his % would go down. But he's proven the last few years thats not the case. In fact this year i believe it is his highest %. So im sure he proved people wrong.
Kawhi entered the NBA as a great defensive player but avg offensive player. In a few years he has turned that around and has become great at it. Proving a lot of people wrong.
So i don't know if Kawhi would be able to keep his % up if he shot 500 more 3's. Probably not, but you wouldn't have thought so with Curry too a few years back. So we wouldn't know until it actually happened which we all know it won't. So at this point its pure speculation. But what i do know is that our best defender, our defensive player of the year actually has a better % behind the arc than the guy who is having a historic year from there. Which is something in itself.
Now if we were just talking Kawhis offense vs Currys offense, of course Kawhi comes no where near Curry. I understand that.
But Kawhi plays great on both sides of the balls. You know Kawhi is an amazing defender. We saw the difference in scoring when he came back to the line up after the all star break. he makes a HUGE difference on our defense.
Yeah GS is 61-6, but we're only talking 4 game difference. hopefully 3 after Saturday. And take into account that we needed games to get our new guys acclimated to our system. We should have never lost that opening game and that wizards game in the beginning of the year. But it happened. But even with that, the Spurs are having a historic year of their own and a lot of has to do with Kawhi.
I know Curry will probably win it this year and I understand why, like you posted earlier, media loves offense more than defense.
But i believe like some others that it is much closer than the media would have you realize.
"There is iron in your words..." - Chief Ten BearsQuote:
Originally Posted by SpursFan86
I'll agree to thatQuote:
Originally Posted by NameLess Scrub
Quote:
Originally Posted by TDomination
Back in the 90's we used to play a lot of NBA Jam in the neighborhood.
I loved to use the Bulls, even with no Jordan. Pippen/Horace was a great duo.
I could work hard to defend and make 2s. Pippen was adequate from 3. Horace wasn't.
One of my friends did something interesting. He started using the Larry/Mourning Hornets. For some reason, he was able to make lots of 3s with them.
My brother answered by using guess who? The frigging Warriors! Mulllin/Hardaway was a great 3pt shooting tandem.
Even with no fireball cheat, games became 3pt shooting contests, if we planned to win. I still had to rely on good ol' defense, mid range and simple dunks (we all also found a way to deny the spectacular dunks). I was able to win some times, but it became increasingly hard.
The NBA right now is that NBA Jam, except headlined by Curry. It doesn't matter how good your defense or your other aspects of the game are. He make 3s (along with being a ridiculous ball handler and finisher of course). Nobody has been able to shoot like him and Kawhi nor anyone else would be able to shoot like Curry due to the way he shoots and makes so many unassisted and extra long 3s with the efficiency he does.
Curry is the MVP, and I'm just hoping that the POs shift things more in the Spurs favor and we are able to watch defense, post ups and all those aspects win titles except the video game shooting that is Steph Curry.
If Pop changes the system and wants Kawhi starts shooting 25+ 3's a game. I'm sure Kawhi would take it to heart and start shooting 1000 3's every day in practice until he's extremely comfortable with every angle and spot. I'm sure he would still have a good %.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
lol
:cry kawhi could be curry if he wanted to be
Thats my hope, they always say defense wins championships. I hope it comes down to that because i have no doubt that we are better at defense than they are. I just want us to shove that mouthpiece back in currys faceQuote:
Originally Posted by NameLess Scrub
Lets just say, April 16 can't get here soon enough.
all skinny and scrawny? nah, he'll take his claw hands and corn rows any day over that.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
The fact the Spurs have an MVP candidate post the big 3 era is a win itself. Props to Leonard for elevating his game to that level and the media/league taking notice. Unfortunately for him it's happened during an historic season by Curry/GS. Next season might be a different story.
A kind of funny of coincidence re: Wardell vs. Kawhi is that it's very similar to the dynamic Shaq and Duncan had in their efforts to be the league's best player/MVP. You had one guy who was an all-time dominant scorer with historic numbers but was just average, even below average, on defense, and then one guy who was a good-to-great scorer, but historically great on defense and the consummate teammate. The media was in love with one, while ignoring the other. Hell, even when Duncan won back-to-back to MVPs (the truth is Duncan only won those awards because, per media criterion in those days, Shaq was punished for playing with another top 10 player in the league), I remember the various talking heads thinking Shaq was "ripped off," so he was definitely the people's MVP in those days. But the metrics do confirm Duncan was actually the better player, or at the very least, just as good. So Duncan's MVPs were well deserved, even though at the time, they gave it to Duncan for being the "most important player to his team."
Yes, Wardell is rightfully deserving of it, but as a total basketball player, Wardell isn't above and beyond Kawhi.
Also, Duncan was 26 and 27 years old when he won MVP. The usual age range of MVPs is 26-32 (i.e. the prime years). Curry is in his prime, but Kawhi isn't even there yet. When he is...good luck to everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by midnightpulp
Basketballreference.comQuote:
Originally Posted by TDomination
Curry was the greatest shooter in NBA history BEFORE this season. He is making his other seasons look pedestrian with the numbers he's putting up this year. And those other seasons are better than any shooting season any player has had... ever. He is not just the greatest shooter ever, he is in an entirely new stratosphere. This isn't some "he's a little better than Ray Allen or Reggie Miller". This is absolute domination of the other greatest shooters of all-time. This is Wayne Gretzky shit. No one else even bears merit to enter into the conversation.Quote:
Before Curry started shooting so many 3's his first few years, i'm sure most would have said that if he were to shoot 400 more 3's his % would go down. But he's proven the last few years thats not the case. In fact this year i believe it is his highest %. So im sure he proved people wrong.
It's not just that Curry is shooting a high percentage. It's how he does it. Curry has destroyed every other shooter in NBA history... and he's 27. He's a PG. And his shot is about as close to perfection as we've ever seen. It's lightning fast, can get it off in .2 of a second or less, and his range extends RELIABLY to 30 feet. Think about having to pick someone else up at half-court in a basketball game because they are shooting over 40% from the circle. It isn't just that he's spotting up at the 3 line. He's actively warping defenses with his range and release.Quote:
So i don't know if Kawhi would be able to keep his % up if he shot 500 more 3's. Probably not, but you wouldn't have thought so with Curry too a few years back. So we wouldn't know until it actually happened which we all know it won't. So at this point its pure speculation. But what i do know is that our best defender, our defensive player of the year actually has a better % behind the arc than the guy who is having a historic year from there. Which is something in itself.
When Curry sat, the Dubs looked like a decent team. Maybe even good. With him they are historically great, and if the Spurs weren't also posting their best season in history so far, the Dubs would be favorites against the entire field to not just win but dominate the NBA playoffs.Quote:
But Kawhi plays great on both sides of the balls. You know Kawhi is an amazing defender. We saw the difference in scoring when he came back to the line up after the all star break. he makes a HUGE difference on our defense.
Yeah GS is 61-6, but we're only talking 4 game difference. hopefully 3 after Saturday. And take into account that we needed games to get our new guys acclimated to our system. We should have never lost that opening game and that wizards game in the beginning of the year. But it happened. But even with that, the Spurs are having a historic year of their own and a lot of has to do with Kawhi.
Advanced stats:Quote:
I know Curry will probably win it this year and I understand why, like you posted earlier, media loves offense more than defense.
But i believe like some others that it is much closer than the media would have you realize.
VORP:
Kawhi 5.3
Curry 8.0
BPM:
Kawhi 8.2
Curry 12.8
WS:
Kawhi 12.2
Curry 14.9
TS%:
Kawhi 62%
Curry 68%
Make no mistake. Kawhi's numbers are ridiculous. Any other season and he'd be a lock for MVP consideration, if not the outright favorite. From an efficiency standpoint they are utterly fantastic.
But Curry is doing something that's never been done before. And he's a 6'3" 190 pound guard. He simply shouldn't be able to do this at any size, let alone being the smallest player on the court a majority of the time.
That skinny scrawny has the longest comfort range for jumpers I have ever seen in the NBA.Quote:
Originally Posted by TDomination
You seen a more versatile shooter at range?
Please name them, him.
As long as Kawhinis MVP of the finals that's all I care about.
You can definitely tell the old school spurs fans from the new school fans in this thread. I think a lot of the young spur fans missed out on Robinson and Duncan's MVP seasons or were too young to enjoy them. It would be great if Kawhi ever won the MVP award but if it never happens I could care less about it. I have witness a spur win that award 3 times in my life time and it was only worthwhile once and that was when Duncan won it in '03 along with the spurs winning the title that year. The other two times the MVP award was hollow since the spurs lost to hated rivals in the playoffs ala Rockets in '94 and Lakers in '02. My point is winning championship is a hundred times better than winning that award from a fans perspective.
No oneQuote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
But i'd still rather take kawhi like he is then to have Curry. Thats just me though.
Kawhi plays DPOY with his 21 points.
curry will get mvp but kawhi will get dpoy. not only is he deserving of dpoy, but even if there was debate, i think they'd give it to leonard almost as a consolation prize to mvp
Find that hard to believe in a 97 Tahoe but whatever.
based on our previous discussions you have no issues believing things that are hard to believe :downspin:Quote:
Originally Posted by RD2191
I'm a skeptic, not sure what you're talking about. :wakeupQuote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
:lol jehova's witnessQuote:
Originally Posted by RD2191
Peanut butter, that is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
:wowQuote:
Originally Posted by RD2191
Tim was head & shoulder better than BOTH Kirby/Snack in the 2002 series: http://www.basketball-reference.com/...vs-lakers.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by midnightpulp
The Lakers won the 2002 series only b/c 19 yr old Porker was playing wing man & Mark Bryant was starting at center.:lol
Snack also bitching about Nash stealing his MVP in 2006 is bogus when Wade led the Heat in win-shares, single handily beat the Mavs in the Final & Nash went to the WCF without Amare. Even in 2005, Wade was tied w/ Snack in win-shares.
Hakeem was dominating the league since his rookie season & even in college.:lol (He was drafted over Jordan for a reason)Quote:
Originally Posted by pgardn
You have guys like Garnett who came into the league straight from high-school as a raw talent & turned into MVPs.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by daslicer
Quote:
Originally Posted by BackHome
:hatQuote:
Originally Posted by spurraider21
Kawhi = 2 way player while Curry is a one way player that just so happens to play on the side of the ball that garners the most attention. The media is in love with offense, and that is fine, but just stating a fact. Curry is having an amazing season on the offensive side of the ball, and he will win mvp...I think his year is so amazing that at this point he most certainly deserves it.
I think if you had only the head coaches vote, it would be closer than most would think.
The amazing thing about what Kawhi does on the defensive end is that he is doing it in a league that has made it harder and harder to play defense. It is like a being a shut-down corner in today's NFL game in which that league is going after more offense to pull in new fans. Offense sells out seats when defense is "boring". Another reason mvp is associated with offense only is because the argument can and will be made that good defense is what defensive player of the year is for, so it is not factored into the mvp race.
Curry is an amazing player, but I wonder how his game would be affected if he played in the 80's - 90's...hand checking and the physical game would have an affect for sure, how much, not possible to know.
Kawhi= 2008 KGQuote:
Originally Posted by dabom
Would Curry be the frontrunner for MVP if the Warriors were 54-13 right now? That record better reflects their performance so far.
I think it would be an interesting debate. As things stand, Curry will win MVP evem if the Spurs somehow get the #1 seed.
80s-90s Curry would be body slammed the moment he crossed half courtQuote:
Originally Posted by callo1
:rollinQuote:
Originally Posted by callo1
Kawhi is great but hes a product of Pops system
If you put him on any other team he would probably be somebody like Tobias Harris
C'mon now. You can do better then that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
KD said the same thingQuote:
Originally Posted by bic50
What's he saying now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Benoit
pete maravichQuote:
Originally Posted by keeferob25
I'm still not sure how does that work. Why should they have that record?Quote:
Originally Posted by Seventyniner
Even so, it could be argued they're better than they should be due to Curry's ability to mess up the game with his shooting.
Yes, Duncan was the superior player and typically outplayed Shaq head-to-head, and was arguably a more impactful player on the court. But the media's perception of Shaq in those days was "Most Dominant Ever," "No one can stop him," "By far the best player in the league," etc. If you remember, he was getting Curry-like hype at the time. The only reason he didn't win like 3 or 4 straight MVPs because writers were still issuing the award based on the "most important player to his team" criterion. Aside from an aging Robinson, Duncan played with garbage. I still don't know how he dragged the corpses of Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, Avery Johnson, the ghost of Sean Elliott, and Antonio Daniels to the '01 WCF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm
Credit to Snack, he picked up his play in the postseason, especially the Finals, unlike Kirby.:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by midnightpulp
First team All NBA is a solid goal. Curry won the MVP by Jan 1
Poor 2007-Mavs-fans. Dirk officially receiving the MVP trophy after his team was eliminated in the first round...Quote:
Originally Posted by daslicer
:claw:lobt2:Quote:
Originally Posted by BackHome
10/10. Please post more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpursFan86
Wardell is a runaway MVP.