Is Kawhi Leonard better than LeBron James?

I believe he is.

He doesn't have the offensive capability to carry an entire team all by himself, like LeBron does.

But no player in the world has the ability to impact the game on both ends of the floor like Kawhi. He's a knockdown shooter from deep, he can guard positions 1 through 4, he can get to the line while still finishing in traffic, he's very good at playing passing lanes and anticipating the steal. I could go on and on.

At one point, he was #1 in the NBA in real plus-minus--ahead of even Steph Curry--before Pop started experimenting towards the end of the season and ruining his numbers. There's a reason why the Spurs have the 2nd best record in the NBA and Kawhi will finish 2nd in MVP voting.

No tbh

He's clearly the best player in the game today.

If you take into account what a headache LeBron is for the coach, organization and some other players to deal with, I'd take Kawhi.

Id take Kawhi.

as a spurs fan, i'm ecstatic that this is even a legitimate question.

Who cares?

He has to be the best player on the court in the Golden State series. None of this Bron Bron fan rationalization that he makes everyone else better until...he doesn't. Then it's everyone else's fault. To be better than Lebron or better than Curry he has to carry the Spurs offensively otherwise no he's not.

No. LeBron controls a team and offense in a way Kawhi doesn't at this point.

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Originally Posted by BillMc

If you take into account what a headache LeBron is for the coach, organization and some other players to deal with, I'd take Kawhi.

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if lebron was on the spurs he wouldn't be headache for anyone. he'd be too happy winning.

do the cavs even have a front office? i'm not even sure if that "organization" knows what those two words mean. they're lucky to be in the east.

LeBron is too consistent. Kawhi is right behind him IMO and a half a tier behind Curry.

lol no and it's not close. Lebron is a walking playoff ticket.

This place is like Lakersground lite. This is the "Ditka" crew for sure.

Kawhi match up well against Lebron.

But comparing Kawhi vs THE REST and Lebron vs THE REST...Lebron is still better

LeBron is a walking finals ticket

Kawhi still needs to prove he can lead a team like LeBron has already proven (for more than part of a season with help, or one game with help). LeBron is and always has been Cleveland all by himself. Sadly on the Heat super team, many times he was that whole team as well.

going forward i'll take kawhi, he's much younger and is still improving

but lebron currently has more impact on games, imo

Head-to-head in a series, Kawhi is better hands down. Lebron will be reduced to a jump shooter & passer with a few off-balance lurches thrown in.

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Originally Posted by gambit1990

if lebron was on the spurs he wouldn't be headache for anyone. he'd be too happy winning.

do the cavs even have a front office? i'm not even sure if that "organization" knows what those two words mean. they're lucky to be in the east.

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He won plenty in Miami and he and Riley butted-heads about LeBron's entourage (he wanted them on team flights, right behind the bench, and to have a few of them get jobs inside the Heat organization). LeBron's had this freedom in both his stints in Cleveland. Riles said 'no' and that's a big factor in why he left despite 4 straight Finals appearances and two titles. So, if Riles and winning couldn't make him happy, not sure Pop and winning would either. He wants to run the show.

But I completely agree with you about the cavs organization and their "front office." :lol

NO. / thread.

Labronie works the refs from the tipoff. He uses all 48 minutes to play the game that sets himself up to control final possessions and to ice games at the line. Until kawhi does this, no he's not better

Kawhi Leonard is a great player, he's improving all the time, and he's 24 years old. Today, 99 percent of people would take 31-year-old Lebron over him. That's not an insult in any way. Kawhi Leonard has turned himself into one of the top players in the league. Lebron has turned himself into one of the top players of all time.

Gotta go with 24-yo Kawhi over 31-yo Lebron. Neither is currently peaking, but I'll take the guy with upside over a guy on the decline.

From 2014 onwards if Bron goes beast mode and carries his team they still can be beaten and often are in big games be it Heat or Cavs. Kawhi when he explodes both end of the court Spurs almost always win.

At the present time it's still Lebron. His playmaking and distributing are on another level, and probably present the biggest disparity between the two players. He's also better at playing through frustration/adversity than the younger Leonard, and making better decisions in difficult situations. With the way Kawhi's progressing he'll probably surpass him soon though. So if you're taking age into account, then Kawhi.

I believe hes next in line to recieve the torch from Lebron.

I voted no because while Kawhi is right now a top player i think LeBron is a more complete player, Kawhi is a better defender, yet lebron can defend many positions, and is a better offensive player and playmaker.

I think Kawhi being on the Spurs makes him look maybe better than James but just think if the Cavs had KL instead of LJ could they have reached the finals and took GS to 6 games? Would the cavs have the record they have right now.

Most likely no.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Kawhi Leonard is a great player, he's improving all the time, and he's 24 years old. Today, 99 percent of people would take 31-year-old Lebron over him. That's not an insult in any way. Kawhi Leonard has turned himself into one of the top players in the league. Lebron has turned himself into one of the top players of all time.

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Not so sure about the 99% figure. I mean for people who know their shit (ie who actually know who Kawhi is and what he's capable of), I'm sure it'd be way closer to 50/50 (taking age into account as well).

If you're talking about who you'd rather have going forward, it's clearly Kawhi considering their age gap. But in terms of who's the better player now, it's fairly comfortably LeBron still. As others have alluded to, Kawhi just hasn't shown the consistency of LeBron. If I have to pick between having LeBron or Kawhi for one playoff run right now, I'm going with LeBron.

Regardless, the fact that this is even remotely a debate is pretty incredible and shows how lucky we've gotten with Kawhi.

Lebron? it is better than MJ...... [/green]

lol no.

But you could make a case that Kawhi has higher upside in this stage of his career.

I voted for Lebron. Yeah I want Kawhi to be the best but he isn't better than Lebron right now. I hope he can get to that level soon though. And I think he will.

Um, no.

Lmao not even close. He isn't even durant level yet, but he's a solid rank 4 in the NBA after curry, bron, and durant

No. I love KL but he's not better than LBJ, LeBron is one of the best basketball players to ever walk this earth, his play making is off the charts, granted KL is only 24 but it's still LeBron as of right now, he can lead a team to the finals, doesn't always win but we have yet to see how KL will do surrounded by no one. LeBron took the 2007 cavs to the championship with NOONE on the team.

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Originally Posted by thiste

Not so sure about the 99% figure. I mean for people who know their shit (ie who actually know who Kawhi is and what he's capable of), I'm sure it'd be way closer to 50/50 (taking age into account as well).

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So...psychics?

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Originally Posted by emanueldavidginobili

No. I love KL but he's not better than LBJ, LeBron is one of the best basketball players to ever walk this earth, his play making is off the charts, granted KL is only 24 but it's still LeBron as of right now, he can lead a team to the finals, doesn't always win but we have yet to see how KL will do surrounded by no one. LeBron took the 2007 cavs to the championship with NOONE on the team.

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No, he took them to the Finals. He did not take them to the championship. I know that's what you meant but let's not equivocate.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

So...phychics?

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What the hell is a phychic? Is that a chick taking physics?

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Originally Posted by DMC

What the hell is a phychic? Is that a chick taking physics?

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Goddamn, I have thirty-seven thousand posts without a fucking typo and I fail to proofread once.

Kawhi's defense is better than Lebron's defense. His individual offense is as good as Lebron's, but his playmaking and court vision is nowhere near Lebron's level.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Goddamn, I have thirty-seven thousand posts without a fucking typo and I fail to proofread once.

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And I nailed your balls to the floor on it.

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Originally Posted by DMC

And I nailed your balls to the floor on it.

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I just realized when typing in the flagrant foul thread that the spell checker for Chrome isn't working, which is how I missed it. If it makes you feel like a man, though, you go on ahead.

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Originally Posted by jARS mEsH sEt

Kawhi's defense is better than Lebron's defense. His individual offense is as good as Lebron's, but his playmaking and court vision is nowhere near Lebron's level.

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Um, no.

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Originally Posted by phxspurfan

LeBron is and always has been Cleveland all by himself. Sadly on the Heat super team, many times he was that whole team as well.

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LeBron simply hijacked the Heats offense & turned Bosh into Ibaka otherwise he could have averaged 20/10.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Kawhi Leonard is a great player, he's improving all the time, and he's 24 years old. Today, 99 percent of people would take 31-year-old Lebron over him. That's not an insult in any way. Kawhi Leonard has turned himself into one of the top players in the league. Lebron has turned himself into one of the top players of all time.

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LeBron was being dared to take jumpers by the Pistons in Gm 3 as if it was the 2013 Finals & for the most part, it worked.:lol

(Stanley Johnson/Morris also have also combined for a solid series while being guarded by LeBron)

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Originally Posted by jARS mEsH sEt

His individual offense is as good as Lebron's

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No, and that's why Lebron is still a better player. Kawhi lacks offensive consistency right now. Sometimes he disappears for whole quarters on O, or for whatever reason klike at the beginning of last game passes up a WIDE open 3 (literally couldn't be more open than that). He just doesn't have a shooter mentality, which is not necessarily bad, but will limit him on the offensive side.

Also Kawhi's isoball isn't on par with Lebron at all (not to mention e.g. Durant), although it's a by-product of the Spurs system as by design the Spurs rarely go iso. Right now for example Kawhi is a great 3pt shooter because he gets a ton of open shots. But that's nowhere near the kind of stuff Curry or Durant do when the going gets tough and somebody has to take a contested shot--because sometimes the system fails or the D is really good and there is no open shot.

This being said Kawhi has shown tremendous year-to-year progress and he's still young, so there's no reason to believe he won't be even better next year. I fully trust him to work and improve on all the aspects of his game that aren't still (or yet) exceptional. And right now he deserves to be #2 in MVP behind Curry, but that's a regular season award. I still like Lebrons ability to take over games in the playoffs, and his sustained extremely high production and efficiency in the playoffs in general.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Kawhi Leonard is a great player, he's improving all the time, and he's 24 years old. Today, 99 percent of people would take 31-year-old Lebron over him. That's not an insult in any way. Kawhi Leonard has turned himself into one of the top players in the league. Lebron has turned himself into one of the top players of all time.

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this is probably the most objective.........

anyway im just happy Kawhi is in the conversation at all....

now to game four gentlemen, bring out the brooms, lets clean room , hahahahahahahahaha

ole, ole ole ole, ole, ole

:claw

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Originally Posted by SpursforSix

He's clearly the best player in the game today.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

So...psychics?

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What I meant is, if you're asking casual fans there's a good chance they won't know Kawhi enough, and will just choose Lebron on mere popularity. But if you choose between the two while having a good understanding of who both players are and what they can bring, the answer might be more nuanced.

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

Sometimes he disappears for whole quarters on O

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I'd say, first quarters.

Since the 2nd part of the season, it's clear that Pop wants to establish LMA-Parker two-man game in the first quarters, force-feeing LMA, that means that Kawhi must park in the corner and wait for long stretches without the ball in his hands.

Sometimes this force-feed makes good things happen, other times it stagnates the SL offense and the Spurs have slow starts.

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or for whatever reason klike at the beginning of last game passes up a WIDE open 3 (literally couldn't be more open than that)

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He was trying to get Danny going in that play, but he shouldn't pass up clean looks, it'd be nice to see Kawhi becoming more selfish.

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Originally Posted by will_spurs

But that's nowhere near the kind of stuff Curry or Durant do when the going gets tough and somebody has to take a contested shot--because sometimes the system fails or the D is really good and there is no open shot.

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After watching Durant numbers in clutch time this season, I'd put only Curry there.

However, it's not like Kawhi isn't really good at making those shots, Lowe said that Kawhi ranks among the league best one-on-one scorers, from both the perimeter and the post.
In game 3, before his last three-point-shot, the previous play, he beat Allen one-on-one with a tough shot.

By virtue of Kawhi not being a 12 year old little girl on social media - Yes. Also, because he's not a Narcissistic, ego maniacal coach killer.

LeBron had scored almost 11,000 points in his first 5 seasons. Kawhi scored 4,650 in his first 5 years.
LeBron had about 2,600 RB and about 2,600 AST in his first 5 seasons. Kawhi has 2,039 RB and 643 AST in his first 5 years.
LeBron went to the FT line about 3,400 times in his first 5 seasons. Kawhi has 926 FTA in his first 5 seasons. (Huge, huge stat.)

LeBron isn't just a "better offensive player" - he's on a different planet than Kawhi, offensively.


Edit: Looking at THIS season, and looking at the Per-100 possession stats, instead of raw totals? The offensive gap isn't nearly as big as I expected. And Kawhi is a better overall defender. LeBron is bigger and heavier, and can guard some bigger players in a pinch. But overall, Kawhi's defense is better, and enough to offset the offensive difference.

I don't know about better, but I think Kawhi is just as good and has a lot more upside and future. I was wrong. Can I have my vote back?

I hate Lebron and I bleed silver and black but I voted for James. It is true that he's a headache for the coach, primadonna, etc, but he's so dominant on the court. His passing is light years ahead of Kawhi. Leonard is a better defender, but James can be a good defender when he wants, and he can defend many different positions.

Given their ages, and Lebron's bad attitude, I would definitely take Leonard in building a team. But in the court right now LJ is a more dominant force night in and night out.

Kawhi is definitely up there LeBron when it comes to isolation/posting up...and he's a much better spot-up shooter.

However, it's LeBron's ability to run an offense, break down the defense, get to the rim, and create for others that separates him from Kawhi. While Kawhi shows glimpses of being able to do those things, he doesn't do them nearly as consistently as LeBron. And while being an elite post-up/isolation player is great, I don't think those things are as valuable as penetration, forcing rotations, and then having GOAT-tier court vision and the ability to create for others. LeBron typically commands much more attention than Kawhi does, and that opens up things for others even more. That's not to say Kawhi never gets double teamed or that teams never have to change their defense to try stopping him...but those things certainly don't happen to the extent you see with LeBron.

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Originally Posted by GSH

LeBron isn't just a "better offensive player" - he's on a different planet than Kawhi, offensively.

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When people compare two players, they should look for how they work in their matchups and Kawhi has elevated his offensive game to match LeBron numbers in the 4 games against him last two sesons, he took 4.25 less shots than him and scored just 4 less points.

I wouldn't say that LeBron is on a different planet offensively when he has to play Kawhi.

If I am trying to build a team for the future with a chance now I take Leonard. If I am trying to win now or in the next year I go with LeBron.... On court Leonard has better D currently but there are plenty of power forwards Leonard can't regularly be expected to match up with. There are basically non with James. Kahwi can defend some PGs but its not an ideal situation.... Leonard is a better defender but the margin is not all that large.

On offense LeBron is a better ballhandler. Its not a huge margin but almost no one is a threat to take the ball away from LeBron or cause him to loose his dribble.

Shooting, James shot outside of 15 feet seems to have mostly deserted him... I am not entirely sure why. Leonard is the superior outside shooter. Both are capable inside and from the foul line. James due to greater bulk and strength is better at finishing after contact.

Distribution James is a better passer and sees cutters and where help defense is coming from more readily. Leonard at this point occasionally needs bailed out or rushes/forces a shot. This is where Leonard is most likely to continue to improve as having the ball and command double teams is new to him.

Team: James is know to be a friendly gregarious teammate who has the back of lesser players. With role players and bench men his ability and willingness to share the ball along with a open personality make him a good teammate. He has a tendency to clash with team management due to being fairly egotistical and self oriented. He can also cause issues with lessor stars because of his ball dominating and self promotional nature. Leonard is a much quieter personality he is more aloof but also seems to be a locker room plus. He leads through example and in many ways is his own worst critic.

In conclusion at over 30 with high usage and ton of miles LeBron is visibly slowing, unless he puts in the work to regain his outside shot over the next few years he will decline into a tweener forward with limited range. While capable barring injury of playing into his late 30s it is questionable if he will want to play past 35 given the reduction in prestige and role that career move would take. Leonard on the other hand is likely to continue to improve for another year or two before entering his prime. He is also shown to be more willing to enter into contracts that help both him and his team.

Switch Kawhi and Lebron:

-Cavs sweep every D-League team.. I mean Eastern Conference team and go to Finals.
-Spurs get knocked out in the 3rd round by Golden State. Pop is fired and replaced with Black coach. Duncan/Ginobli/Parker are scapegoated and either traded or forced to retire. Lebron signs with Golden State after all that happens.

Its kawhi and its not even close. Lebron this year struggled mighty without irving and love providinv respectable gravity.

Shooting is everything in a space and pace game. With kawhi's magnititude, hes the better player.

LBJ is clearly one of the best players of all time and it's weird to say this for a 5 or 6 time MVP but I don't think he ever reached his potential.

2nd year LBJ age 19-20: 27.2ppg, 7.4rpg, 7.2apg, 2.2spg, 0.7bpg, 47%FG, 35%3PTFG
Career LBJ: 27.2ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.9apg, 1.7spg, 0.8bpg, 49%FG, 34%3PTFG

Career highs
31.4ppg in his 3rd year
8.0rpg in his 10th year
8.6apg in his 6th year
2.2spg in his 2nd year
1.1bpg in his 5th year

Crazy to say this but he had the game and physical tools to average 40 10 and 10. He never really worked on his handles which are pretty ugly for such a great player. 3 point shooting is up and down, career low 29%, career high 40%, this year 30%. He is as unstoppable as a freight train but often settles for ugly long jumpers. There are some things he could have worked on and 40 10 and 10 wouldn't have been out of the question. I honestly don't think he quite reached his ceiling, lucky for the other teams in the NBA.

A Kawhi led team couldn't even make it out of the first round. LeBron took his team to finals and were actually up on Dubs. In his first run with Cavs he even had less talent and took them to finals.
Just because Kawhi and LeBron stats may be similar their presence on floor differ. LeBron commands the whole respect of the opposing team. Coaches game plans revolve around stopping LeBron. Kawhi can easily be covered by one defender.

Lebron but his time is rapidly coming to an end. Coming into the league at 18, all these years of the playoffs, 5 straight times in the finals. He is coming out of the prime and the road to titles is not getting any easier..

Lubrown played his entire career in the lEASTern conference. Niglets' numbers would've been different had he balled with the real niggas out in the West.

Lebron is more physically gifted but I like Kawhis game better. Kawhi can deliver off the dribble when needed but can also take the simple pass for a spot up 3. He rewards good passing by doing the simple thing. I hardly ever see Lebron doing that. He wants to be the facilitator or scorer from his own dribble, never the recipient.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Lebron this year struggled mighty without irving and love providinv respectable gravity.

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Yeah, you're pulling this out of your ass :lol

LeBron on: Cavs' Net RTG = +11.7
LeBron on, Kyrie off: Cavs' Net RTG = +14.3 - LeBron scored 27.8 points per 36 minutes on a 58.2 TS%
LeBron on, Love off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.3 - LeBron scored 29.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.5 TS%
LeBron on, Kyrie and Love both off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.0 - LeBron scored 31.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.9 TS%
LeBron off: Cavs' Net RTG = -5.3

As long as LeBron is on the court, Cavs are an elite team. And unless you consider scoring 30+ points per 36 minutes on great efficiency while leading your team to a double digit positive net rating, your "LeBron struggled mightily without Irving and Love" statement is complete bullshit.

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Originally Posted by SpursFan86

Yeah, you're pulling this out of your ass :lol

LeBron on: Cavs' Net RTG = +11.7
LeBron on, Kyrie off: Cavs' Net RTG = +14.3 - LeBron scored 27.8 points per 36 minutes on a 58.2 TS%
LeBron on, Love off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.3 - LeBron scored 29.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.5 TS%
LeBron on, Kyrie and Love both off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.0 - LeBron scored 31.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.9 TS%
LeBron off: Cavs' Net RTG = -5.3

As long as LeBron is on the court, Cavs are an elite team. And unless you consider scoring 30+ points per 36 minutes on great efficiency while leading your team to a double digit positive net rating, your "LeBron struggled mightily without Irving and Love" statement is complete bullshit.

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Those stats ignore the very fundamental question of this thread. Of course The cavs are always going to be better with Lebron playing :lol

But their peak team potential is essentialy dimished significantly without one of kyrie and Love to provide gravity. Lebrons shot has been off.

If you've been watching the playoffs, there's a reason why the team plays through love and kyrie now. Lebron feeds off of those two. The cavs would have lost a game possibly two if Lebron continues.to hijack the offense.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Those stats ignore the very fundamental question of this thread. Of course The cavs are always going to be better with Lebron playing :lol

But their peak team potential is essentialy dimished significantly without one of kyrie and Love to provide gravity. Lebrons shot has been off.

If you've been watching the playoffs, there's a reason why the team plays through love and kyrie now. Lebron feeds off of those two. The cavs would have lost a game possibly two if Lebron continues.to hijack the offense.

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You said LeBron "struggles mightily" without Love and Kyrie. The Cavs this year were still dominant without Kyrie/Love on the court, and LeBron still played great on an individual basis.

"LeBron struggles mightly without the help of Kyrie and Love's gravity" isn't remotely the same as "The Cavs' peak potential is lower without Kyrie/Love". The latter is obvious. The former is flat-out wrong and is the statement you made.

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

going forward i'll take kawhi, he's much younger and is still improving

but lebron currently has more impact on games, imo

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Originally Posted by YGWHI

When people compare two players, they should look for how they work in their matchups and Kawhi has elevated his offensive game to match LeBron numbers in the 4 games against him last two sesons, he took 4.25 less shots than him and scored just 4 less points.

I wouldn't say that LeBron is on a different planet offensively when he has to play Kawhi.

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Well you're right, but for the wrong reason. (You can't look at one match-up, even the head to head matchup. They play 82 games.) But I looked at this seasons Per 100 Possessions stats. That's a lot more fair comparison than raw totals. LeBron still has more offensive firepower (points, AST's, FTA's) than Kawhi. But the gap is a LOT closer than I had expected to see. LeBron still dishes out quite a few more AST's than Kawhi, and that helps make his teammates better. And his penetration is so strong that it makes those assists possible.

I was surprised that their RB numbers are almost identical. Kawhi shoots FT's and 3P's better, but LeBron's 2P% is still considerably better than Kawhi's. LeBron gets to the line more, but Kawhi knocks down a much better percentage of his.

Bottom line - I voted for LeBron, but if I had looked at the Per 100 stats (like I should have) I would have gone the other way. On a per-possession basis, the offensive numbers are close enough that Kawhi's defense more than makes up the gap, IMO.

I think Kawhi is the best player in the league. If I were to build a team around any player it would be Kawhi. Kawhi brings no drama, and hustles every night. Lebron is a diva on and off the court, which to me factors into which player is better.

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Originally Posted by SpursforSix

He's clearly the best player in the game today.

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It's a good thing for the Spurs that Kawhi loves and takes pride in playing LeBron, it seems like Kawhi was born to play him on the big stage.

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Originally Posted by GSH

Well you're right, but for the wrong reason. (You can't look at one match-up, even the head to head matchup. They play 82 games.) But I looked at this seasons Per 100 Possessions stats. That's a lot more fair comparison than raw totals.

LeBron still has more offensive firepower (points, AST's, FTA's) than Kawhi. But the gap is a LOT closer than I had expected to see. LeBron still dishes out quite a few more AST's than Kawhi, and that makes his team better. And his penetration is so strong that it makes those assists possible.

I was surprised that their RB numbers are almost identical. Kawhi shoots FT's and 3P's better, but LeBron's 2P% is still considerably better than Kawhi's. LeBron gets to the line more, but Kawhi knocks down a much better percentage of his.

Bottom line - I voted for LeBron, but if I had looked at the Per 100 stats (like I should have) I would have gone the other way. On a per-possession basis, the offensive numbers are close enough that Kawhi's defense more than makes up the gap, IMO.

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Great stats. Thanks for posting them!

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Id take Kawhi.

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You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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:lol

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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LOL. Ducks stepping up his game in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Kawhi had a better season, but Lebron is still the better player..

It's tough to judge somebody in Lebron's position, as he was pretty ordinary during the 1st half of the season prior to the annual "Miami trip":lol..it's a given that Lebron is going to coast during half the year, nowadays..

Kawhi is better than Durant, though, at this point..

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Hey brah, can you paraly the 2nd round for me with the winnings once the first round is done? Spurs-Cavs against whoever they play.

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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:wow

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Originally Posted by GSH

Edit: Looking at THIS season, and looking at the Per-100 possession stats, instead of raw totals? The offensive gap isn't nearly as big as I expected. And Kawhi is a better overall defender. LeBron is bigger and heavier, and can guard some bigger players in a pinch. But overall, Kawhi's defense is better, and enough to offset the offensive difference.

I don't know about better, but I think Kawhi is just as good and has a lot more upside and future. I was wrong. Can I have my vote back?

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His offense is amazing, and it pales compared to his defense. Kawhi has made huge leaps and bounds on a team full of guys that take pressure off him, where still nobody is game-planning for how to stop him by himself. But your first instinct was the correct one. Can we have him get to the all-star game two times before we declare him interchangable with a top-5 all-time player?

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Hey brah, can you paraly the 2nd round for me with the winnings once the first round is done? Spurs-Cavs against whoever they play.

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Cool

So nearly half the people that voted in this thread think that the Spurs wouldn't have been first in the west with Lebron instead of Kawhi?

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Cool

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Sorry for the trouble brah. I wanted to PM yiu but the mods disabled my profile and pms. I am 20% banned basically.

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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Originally Posted by BillMc

He won plenty in Miami and he and Riley butted-heads about LeBron's entourage (he wanted them on team flights, right behind the bench, and to have a few of them get jobs inside the Heat organization). LeBron's had this freedom in both his stints in Cleveland. Riles said 'no' and that's a big factor in why he left despite 4 straight Finals appearances and two titles. So, if Riles and winning couldn't make him happy, not sure Pop and winning would either. He wants to run the show.

But I completely agree with you about the cavs organization and their "front office." :lol

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Didn't know that stuff about Lebron and Riles. Just imagine trying to get his entourage on a Spurs team flight! :lol Lebron is all about winning - as long as it's on his terms. :lol

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

His offense is amazing, and it pales compared to his defense. Kawhi has made huge leaps and bounds on a team full of guys that take pressure off him, where still nobody is game-planning for how to stop him by himself. But your first instinct was the correct one. Can we have him get to the all-star game two times before we declare him interchangable with a top-5 all-time player?

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Heh. I'm sure you're right. But stats based on 82 games still have some meaning. You either put up the goods or you don't. And between the way Pop limits minutes, the Spurs' slow pace, plus the team game they play, the raw numbers were a little misleading. I was just pretty shocked at how close the Per-100 offensive stats really were.

I know instinctively that LeBron is a generational player. But I also know instinctively that Kawhi's defense is pretty damned exceptional - and it doesn't show up on a stat sheet. It's always tough to compare two guys who play a different game, and get their numbers a different way.

No offense, but I'm going to pass on using All-Star appearances in my decision making. But sooner or later people are going to be using Championships to question whether LeBron is as good of a player/teammate as his talent should make him. If not for The Decision, and Miami being able to bring together a ridiculous bunch of talent, he might not have any. Probably wouldn't have any.

Okay, so maybe Kawhi isn't better. But the gap is a lot closer than my first instinct said. The numbers, plus what I "know" about his defense, say so.

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Originally Posted by GSH

Heh. I'm sure you're right. But stats based on 82 games still have some meaning. You either put up the goods or you don't. And between the way Pop limits minutes, the Spurs' slow pace, plus the team game they play, the raw numbers were a little misleading. I was just pretty shocked at how close the Per-100 offensive stats really were.

I know instinctively that LeBron is a generational player. But I also know instinctively that Kawhi's defense is pretty damned exceptional - and it doesn't show up on a stat sheet. It's always tough to compare two guys who play a different game, and get their numbers a different way.

No offense, but I'm going to pass on using All-Star appearances in my decision making. But sooner or later people are going to be using Championships to question whether LeBron is as good of a player/teammate as his talent should make him. If not for The Decision, and Miami being able to bring together a ridiculous bunch of talent, he might not have any. Probably wouldn't have any.

Okay, so maybe Kawhi isn't better. But the gap is a lot closer than my first instinct said. The numbers, plus what I "know" about his defense, say so.

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Most people here are saying they'd take him based on his age, which means they're assuming he's going to continue to improve, which is the only reason I suggested waiting maybe another season. While it's a safe bet that Kawhi will continue to close the gap, there's still a gap.

I'm not sure I could be much happier that there's even a serious discussion about it. I think "over the moon" is probably a good characterization. :lol

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Didn't know that stuff about Lebron and Riles. Just imagine trying to get his entourage on a Spurs team flight! :lol Lebron is all about winning - as long as it's on his terms. :lol

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To be fair the Cavs let him do this from day one when he entered the league at 18. So he feels entitled. He's a spoiled child. But his privilege is based on his performance. What will be interesting to see is in say, 5 years, if he is allowed this stuff when he's not only not the best player in the NBA but not the best player on his own team. Kobe had a lot of privilege in his final years as a Laker as his skills and health declined but a) the Buss children were desperate to please their one big draw and b) Kobe has no entourage.

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Originally Posted by BillMc

To be fair the Cavs let him do this from day one when he entered the league at 18. So he feels entitled. He's a spoiled child. But his privilege is based on his performance. What will be interesting to see in say, 5 years, if he is allowed this stuff when he's not only not the best player in the NBA but not the best player on his own team. Kobe had a lot of privilege in his final years as a Laker as his skills and health decline but a) the Buss children were desperate to please their one big draw and b) Kobe has no entourage, no one even likes him.

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Lebron's spoiled, but he's not an idiot. I wouldn't be shocked if he left Cleveland again. Do the Spurs have enough cap room this summer for him?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Lebron's spoiled, but he's not an idiot. I wouldn't be shocked if he left Cleveland again. Do the Spurs have enough cap room this summer for him?

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He'll never go west. The East is too easy to make the Finals.

Kawhi is so unique to the Spurs. He can play off the ball and on the ball. Lebron isn't the shooter that Kawhi is. He doesn't have the midrange, or 3 to space the floor for the team. I personalty don't think he is the rebounder Kawhi is. Playing powerforward definitely gives him more room for easy rebounds. Post up play is about even. Kawhi is more traditional but Lebron got the bully play. Lebron is the better playmaker though. I give the offense to Kawhi. Not even talking about how way better defensively Kawhi is than Lebron. I even saw some weak ass stats on reddit and ISH comparing both players on defense. First of all, Kawhi is ALWAYS defending the best player all game. I'm sure Lebald does that but only in spot minutes in the fourth. The quality of players Kawhi defends is way better. And that's why Kawhi leads the best defense in the game. Defense hands down goes to Kawhi.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Kawhi has made huge leaps and bounds on a team full of guys that take pressure off him, where still nobody is game-planning for how to stop him by himself.

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I wouldn't say we have a lot of guys taking pressure off him, just LMA.

LeBron has other two guys scoring over 20 ppg in 3 games this series, Kawhi...no one...zero...0.

LeBron averages 23 ppg in 41 mpg against Detroit, Kawhi 21.5 ppg in 33 mpg

Yep, we can say..."just the Grizz" but Kawhi won't have other two guys scoring that much against OKC (only LMA), LeBron will have those guys in the 2nd round.

Kawhi was guarded this series by Tony Allen and Matt Barnes.

LeBron is guarded by a rookie

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Originally Posted by BillMc

He'll never go west. The East is too easy to make the Finals.

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While you are right about the East, he is not going to any team that won't let him run the whole show. He and Pop could NEVER co-exist! :downspin:

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Originally Posted by sasaint

While you are right about the East, he is not going to any team that won't let him run the whole show. He and Pop could NEVER co-exist! :downspin:

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Agree 100%

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Originally Posted by dabom

Lebron isn't the shooter that Kawhi is. He doesn't have the midrange

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Kawhi has developed into a good mid-range shooter. The problem is, those are still sub-50% shots. LeBron took 46% of his shots from inside 3 feet this season, and made 72% of them. His ability to get to the rack is also the reason he gets more FTA's.

I agree that Kawhi's defense is better, and people can argue about whether that tips the scale in his favor. But you can't give the offensive edge to Kawhi until he gets better at getting to the rack. In the playoffs, that's priceless.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

While you are right about the East, he is not going to any team that won't let him run the whole show. He and Pop could NEVER co-exist! :downspin:

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Yeah, that's the issue of whether LeBron is a more desirable player to have on your team. There is definitely some downside to his ego and entourage. They don't have stats for that.

Maybe one porker stan gave it to Kawhi. This is the reason polls on ST are bias much. :lol

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Originally Posted by GSH

Kawhi has developed into a good mid-range shooter. The problem is, those are still sub-50% shots. LeBron took 46% of his shots from inside 3 feet this season, and made 72% of them. His ability to get to the rack is also the reason he gets more FTA's.

I agree that Kawhi's defense is better, and people can argue about whether that tips the scale in his favor. But you can't give the offensive edge to Kawhi until he gets better at getting to the rack. In the playoffs, that's priceless.




Yeah, that's the issue of whether LeBron is a more desirable player to have on your team. There is definitely some downside to his ego and entourage. They don't have stats for that.

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And yet Kawhi has a way better TS% than Lebron. :lol

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Originally Posted by GSH

LeBron took 46% of his shots from inside 3 feet this season, and made 72% of them. His ability to get to the rack is also the reason he gets more FTA's.

I agree that Kawhi's defense is better, and people can argue about whether that tips the scale in his favor. But you can't give the offensive edge to Kawhi until he gets better at getting to the rack. In the playoffs, that's priceless.

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Not all players need to be that aggressive attacking the rim, to be a prolific and efficient scorer.

Curry gets only 0.5 FTA's more than Kawhi and doesn't get to the rack very often.

Of course that Kawhi doesn't have Curry's shot, I'm just saying a player can find his offensive game in a variety of ways.

In Kawhi's case is being a post-up/mid range shooter, he can get better driving to the hoop but he won't force things to draw fouls, it's not the Spurs way.

Even in Parker best scoring season, one of the best in the league at attacking the rim, he had just 5 FTA, Kawhi this regular season, 4.6.

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Originally Posted by dabom

And yet Kawhi has a way better TS% than Lebron. :lol

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Keep laughing, fuckwit. First of all his TS% isn't WAY better - .616 vs .588. Anyone who's watched as much basketball as you claim to have should know that the difference is from Kawhi's 3-pointers. What dumbshits like you don't understand is that 55% of Kawhi's 3-pointers miss, which gives teams like the Warriors the opportunity to get out and run. When LeBron is shooting those 3-foot shots, only 28% of them miss. That's almost exactly half the opportunities to get out and run.

In a 1-point playoff game, do you want Kawhi shooting a 45% shot, or LeBron shooting a 72% shot where he might draw a foul? Sadly, YOU might guess the wrong answer to that one.

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Originally Posted by YGWHI

Not all players need to be that aggressive attacking the rim, to be a prolific and efficient scorer.

Curry gets only 0.5 FTA's more than Kawhi and doesn't get to the rack very often.

Of course that Kawhi doesn't have Curry's shot, I'm just saying a player can find his offensive game in a variety of ways.

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This isn't about Curry or Parker, it's about LeBron. And the one thing you can't get around is that 46% of LeBron's shots were from inside 3 feet, at a .722 FG% - PLUS all the FT's he got to shoot because of those shots. I'm not disrespecting Kawhi, but a guy who can consistently get to the rim and finish gets the team a LOT of easy, high-percentage points. And high-percentage shooting means fewer empty possessions, and fewer chances for the other team to run on the defensive rebounds.

Like it or not, 3-pointers are high-variance. You may score more points per possession, but you have a lot more possessions where you don't score. Like I said above, in a tight game, give me the high-percentage, low-variance shot every time. In any game against Golden State, give me the high-percentage, low-variance shot every time. Yes, there are a lot of ways to generate offense, but layups and dunks are better than the rest. One of the biggest benefits of shooting 3-pointers is that (hopefully) they stretch the defense, and allow you to get more layups and dunks.

Except he needs to be in position for those shots you stupid fuck. Or else he would shoot .80TS% all the fucking time. :lmao

Does this guy know basketball? :lol

LeBrick being carried by Kyrie in the 2nd half two games in a row:wakeup

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the NBA right now, and a Top 5 player overall this season.

LeBron is one of the best basketball players OF ALL TIME and a LOCK for the HOF.

Kawhi is still young, so he has plenty of time to build his resume.