Is Kawhi Leonard better than LeBron James?

LeBron had scored almost 11,000 points in his first 5 seasons. Kawhi scored 4,650 in his first 5 years.
LeBron had about 2,600 RB and about 2,600 AST in his first 5 seasons. Kawhi has 2,039 RB and 643 AST in his first 5 years.
LeBron went to the FT line about 3,400 times in his first 5 seasons. Kawhi has 926 FTA in his first 5 seasons. (Huge, huge stat.)

LeBron isn't just a "better offensive player" - he's on a different planet than Kawhi, offensively.


Edit: Looking at THIS season, and looking at the Per-100 possession stats, instead of raw totals? The offensive gap isn't nearly as big as I expected. And Kawhi is a better overall defender. LeBron is bigger and heavier, and can guard some bigger players in a pinch. But overall, Kawhi's defense is better, and enough to offset the offensive difference.

I don't know about better, but I think Kawhi is just as good and has a lot more upside and future. I was wrong. Can I have my vote back?

I hate Lebron and I bleed silver and black but I voted for James. It is true that he's a headache for the coach, primadonna, etc, but he's so dominant on the court. His passing is light years ahead of Kawhi. Leonard is a better defender, but James can be a good defender when he wants, and he can defend many different positions.

Given their ages, and Lebron's bad attitude, I would definitely take Leonard in building a team. But in the court right now LJ is a more dominant force night in and night out.

Kawhi is definitely up there LeBron when it comes to isolation/posting up...and he's a much better spot-up shooter.

However, it's LeBron's ability to run an offense, break down the defense, get to the rim, and create for others that separates him from Kawhi. While Kawhi shows glimpses of being able to do those things, he doesn't do them nearly as consistently as LeBron. And while being an elite post-up/isolation player is great, I don't think those things are as valuable as penetration, forcing rotations, and then having GOAT-tier court vision and the ability to create for others. LeBron typically commands much more attention than Kawhi does, and that opens up things for others even more. That's not to say Kawhi never gets double teamed or that teams never have to change their defense to try stopping him...but those things certainly don't happen to the extent you see with LeBron.

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Originally Posted by GSH

LeBron isn't just a "better offensive player" - he's on a different planet than Kawhi, offensively.

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When people compare two players, they should look for how they work in their matchups and Kawhi has elevated his offensive game to match LeBron numbers in the 4 games against him last two sesons, he took 4.25 less shots than him and scored just 4 less points.

I wouldn't say that LeBron is on a different planet offensively when he has to play Kawhi.

If I am trying to build a team for the future with a chance now I take Leonard. If I am trying to win now or in the next year I go with LeBron.... On court Leonard has better D currently but there are plenty of power forwards Leonard can't regularly be expected to match up with. There are basically non with James. Kahwi can defend some PGs but its not an ideal situation.... Leonard is a better defender but the margin is not all that large.

On offense LeBron is a better ballhandler. Its not a huge margin but almost no one is a threat to take the ball away from LeBron or cause him to loose his dribble.

Shooting, James shot outside of 15 feet seems to have mostly deserted him... I am not entirely sure why. Leonard is the superior outside shooter. Both are capable inside and from the foul line. James due to greater bulk and strength is better at finishing after contact.

Distribution James is a better passer and sees cutters and where help defense is coming from more readily. Leonard at this point occasionally needs bailed out or rushes/forces a shot. This is where Leonard is most likely to continue to improve as having the ball and command double teams is new to him.

Team: James is know to be a friendly gregarious teammate who has the back of lesser players. With role players and bench men his ability and willingness to share the ball along with a open personality make him a good teammate. He has a tendency to clash with team management due to being fairly egotistical and self oriented. He can also cause issues with lessor stars because of his ball dominating and self promotional nature. Leonard is a much quieter personality he is more aloof but also seems to be a locker room plus. He leads through example and in many ways is his own worst critic.

In conclusion at over 30 with high usage and ton of miles LeBron is visibly slowing, unless he puts in the work to regain his outside shot over the next few years he will decline into a tweener forward with limited range. While capable barring injury of playing into his late 30s it is questionable if he will want to play past 35 given the reduction in prestige and role that career move would take. Leonard on the other hand is likely to continue to improve for another year or two before entering his prime. He is also shown to be more willing to enter into contracts that help both him and his team.

Switch Kawhi and Lebron:

-Cavs sweep every D-League team.. I mean Eastern Conference team and go to Finals.
-Spurs get knocked out in the 3rd round by Golden State. Pop is fired and replaced with Black coach. Duncan/Ginobli/Parker are scapegoated and either traded or forced to retire. Lebron signs with Golden State after all that happens.

Its kawhi and its not even close. Lebron this year struggled mighty without irving and love providinv respectable gravity.

Shooting is everything in a space and pace game. With kawhi's magnititude, hes the better player.

LBJ is clearly one of the best players of all time and it's weird to say this for a 5 or 6 time MVP but I don't think he ever reached his potential.

2nd year LBJ age 19-20: 27.2ppg, 7.4rpg, 7.2apg, 2.2spg, 0.7bpg, 47%FG, 35%3PTFG
Career LBJ: 27.2ppg, 7.2rpg, 6.9apg, 1.7spg, 0.8bpg, 49%FG, 34%3PTFG

Career highs
31.4ppg in his 3rd year
8.0rpg in his 10th year
8.6apg in his 6th year
2.2spg in his 2nd year
1.1bpg in his 5th year

Crazy to say this but he had the game and physical tools to average 40 10 and 10. He never really worked on his handles which are pretty ugly for such a great player. 3 point shooting is up and down, career low 29%, career high 40%, this year 30%. He is as unstoppable as a freight train but often settles for ugly long jumpers. There are some things he could have worked on and 40 10 and 10 wouldn't have been out of the question. I honestly don't think he quite reached his ceiling, lucky for the other teams in the NBA.

A Kawhi led team couldn't even make it out of the first round. LeBron took his team to finals and were actually up on Dubs. In his first run with Cavs he even had less talent and took them to finals.
Just because Kawhi and LeBron stats may be similar their presence on floor differ. LeBron commands the whole respect of the opposing team. Coaches game plans revolve around stopping LeBron. Kawhi can easily be covered by one defender.

Lebron but his time is rapidly coming to an end. Coming into the league at 18, all these years of the playoffs, 5 straight times in the finals. He is coming out of the prime and the road to titles is not getting any easier..

Lubrown played his entire career in the lEASTern conference. Niglets' numbers would've been different had he balled with the real niggas out in the West.

Lebron is more physically gifted but I like Kawhis game better. Kawhi can deliver off the dribble when needed but can also take the simple pass for a spot up 3. He rewards good passing by doing the simple thing. I hardly ever see Lebron doing that. He wants to be the facilitator or scorer from his own dribble, never the recipient.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Lebron this year struggled mighty without irving and love providinv respectable gravity.

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Yeah, you're pulling this out of your ass :lol

LeBron on: Cavs' Net RTG = +11.7
LeBron on, Kyrie off: Cavs' Net RTG = +14.3 - LeBron scored 27.8 points per 36 minutes on a 58.2 TS%
LeBron on, Love off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.3 - LeBron scored 29.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.5 TS%
LeBron on, Kyrie and Love both off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.0 - LeBron scored 31.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.9 TS%
LeBron off: Cavs' Net RTG = -5.3

As long as LeBron is on the court, Cavs are an elite team. And unless you consider scoring 30+ points per 36 minutes on great efficiency while leading your team to a double digit positive net rating, your "LeBron struggled mightily without Irving and Love" statement is complete bullshit.

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Originally Posted by SpursFan86

Yeah, you're pulling this out of your ass :lol

LeBron on: Cavs' Net RTG = +11.7
LeBron on, Kyrie off: Cavs' Net RTG = +14.3 - LeBron scored 27.8 points per 36 minutes on a 58.2 TS%
LeBron on, Love off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.3 - LeBron scored 29.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.5 TS%
LeBron on, Kyrie and Love both off: Cavs' Net RTG = +10.0 - LeBron scored 31.4 points per 36 minutes on a 57.9 TS%
LeBron off: Cavs' Net RTG = -5.3

As long as LeBron is on the court, Cavs are an elite team. And unless you consider scoring 30+ points per 36 minutes on great efficiency while leading your team to a double digit positive net rating, your "LeBron struggled mightily without Irving and Love" statement is complete bullshit.

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Those stats ignore the very fundamental question of this thread. Of course The cavs are always going to be better with Lebron playing :lol

But their peak team potential is essentialy dimished significantly without one of kyrie and Love to provide gravity. Lebrons shot has been off.

If you've been watching the playoffs, there's a reason why the team plays through love and kyrie now. Lebron feeds off of those two. The cavs would have lost a game possibly two if Lebron continues.to hijack the offense.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Those stats ignore the very fundamental question of this thread. Of course The cavs are always going to be better with Lebron playing :lol

But their peak team potential is essentialy dimished significantly without one of kyrie and Love to provide gravity. Lebrons shot has been off.

If you've been watching the playoffs, there's a reason why the team plays through love and kyrie now. Lebron feeds off of those two. The cavs would have lost a game possibly two if Lebron continues.to hijack the offense.

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You said LeBron "struggles mightily" without Love and Kyrie. The Cavs this year were still dominant without Kyrie/Love on the court, and LeBron still played great on an individual basis.

"LeBron struggles mightly without the help of Kyrie and Love's gravity" isn't remotely the same as "The Cavs' peak potential is lower without Kyrie/Love". The latter is obvious. The former is flat-out wrong and is the statement you made.

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

going forward i'll take kawhi, he's much younger and is still improving

but lebron currently has more impact on games, imo

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Originally Posted by YGWHI

When people compare two players, they should look for how they work in their matchups and Kawhi has elevated his offensive game to match LeBron numbers in the 4 games against him last two sesons, he took 4.25 less shots than him and scored just 4 less points.

I wouldn't say that LeBron is on a different planet offensively when he has to play Kawhi.

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Well you're right, but for the wrong reason. (You can't look at one match-up, even the head to head matchup. They play 82 games.) But I looked at this seasons Per 100 Possessions stats. That's a lot more fair comparison than raw totals. LeBron still has more offensive firepower (points, AST's, FTA's) than Kawhi. But the gap is a LOT closer than I had expected to see. LeBron still dishes out quite a few more AST's than Kawhi, and that helps make his teammates better. And his penetration is so strong that it makes those assists possible.

I was surprised that their RB numbers are almost identical. Kawhi shoots FT's and 3P's better, but LeBron's 2P% is still considerably better than Kawhi's. LeBron gets to the line more, but Kawhi knocks down a much better percentage of his.

Bottom line - I voted for LeBron, but if I had looked at the Per 100 stats (like I should have) I would have gone the other way. On a per-possession basis, the offensive numbers are close enough that Kawhi's defense more than makes up the gap, IMO.

I think Kawhi is the best player in the league. If I were to build a team around any player it would be Kawhi. Kawhi brings no drama, and hustles every night. Lebron is a diva on and off the court, which to me factors into which player is better.

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Originally Posted by SpursforSix

He's clearly the best player in the game today.

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It's a good thing for the Spurs that Kawhi loves and takes pride in playing LeBron, it seems like Kawhi was born to play him on the big stage.

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Originally Posted by GSH

Well you're right, but for the wrong reason. (You can't look at one match-up, even the head to head matchup. They play 82 games.) But I looked at this seasons Per 100 Possessions stats. That's a lot more fair comparison than raw totals.

LeBron still has more offensive firepower (points, AST's, FTA's) than Kawhi. But the gap is a LOT closer than I had expected to see. LeBron still dishes out quite a few more AST's than Kawhi, and that makes his team better. And his penetration is so strong that it makes those assists possible.

I was surprised that their RB numbers are almost identical. Kawhi shoots FT's and 3P's better, but LeBron's 2P% is still considerably better than Kawhi's. LeBron gets to the line more, but Kawhi knocks down a much better percentage of his.

Bottom line - I voted for LeBron, but if I had looked at the Per 100 stats (like I should have) I would have gone the other way. On a per-possession basis, the offensive numbers are close enough that Kawhi's defense more than makes up the gap, IMO.

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Great stats. Thanks for posting them!

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Id take Kawhi.

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You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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:lol

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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LOL. Ducks stepping up his game in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Kawhi had a better season, but Lebron is still the better player..

It's tough to judge somebody in Lebron's position, as he was pretty ordinary during the 1st half of the season prior to the annual "Miami trip":lol..it's a given that Lebron is going to coast during half the year, nowadays..

Kawhi is better than Durant, though, at this point..

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Hey brah, can you paraly the 2nd round for me with the winnings once the first round is done? Spurs-Cavs against whoever they play.

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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:wow