Is Kawhi Leonard better than LeBron James?

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Originally Posted by GSH

Edit: Looking at THIS season, and looking at the Per-100 possession stats, instead of raw totals? The offensive gap isn't nearly as big as I expected. And Kawhi is a better overall defender. LeBron is bigger and heavier, and can guard some bigger players in a pinch. But overall, Kawhi's defense is better, and enough to offset the offensive difference.

I don't know about better, but I think Kawhi is just as good and has a lot more upside and future. I was wrong. Can I have my vote back?

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His offense is amazing, and it pales compared to his defense. Kawhi has made huge leaps and bounds on a team full of guys that take pressure off him, where still nobody is game-planning for how to stop him by himself. But your first instinct was the correct one. Can we have him get to the all-star game two times before we declare him interchangable with a top-5 all-time player?

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Hey brah, can you paraly the 2nd round for me with the winnings once the first round is done? Spurs-Cavs against whoever they play.

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Cool

So nearly half the people that voted in this thread think that the Spurs wouldn't have been first in the west with Lebron instead of Kawhi?

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Cool

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Sorry for the trouble brah. I wanted to PM yiu but the mods disabled my profile and pms. I am 20% banned basically.

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Originally Posted by ducks

You would take your aunt over a 10 women

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Originally Posted by BillMc

He won plenty in Miami and he and Riley butted-heads about LeBron's entourage (he wanted them on team flights, right behind the bench, and to have a few of them get jobs inside the Heat organization). LeBron's had this freedom in both his stints in Cleveland. Riles said 'no' and that's a big factor in why he left despite 4 straight Finals appearances and two titles. So, if Riles and winning couldn't make him happy, not sure Pop and winning would either. He wants to run the show.

But I completely agree with you about the cavs organization and their "front office." :lol

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Didn't know that stuff about Lebron and Riles. Just imagine trying to get his entourage on a Spurs team flight! :lol Lebron is all about winning - as long as it's on his terms. :lol

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

His offense is amazing, and it pales compared to his defense. Kawhi has made huge leaps and bounds on a team full of guys that take pressure off him, where still nobody is game-planning for how to stop him by himself. But your first instinct was the correct one. Can we have him get to the all-star game two times before we declare him interchangable with a top-5 all-time player?

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Heh. I'm sure you're right. But stats based on 82 games still have some meaning. You either put up the goods or you don't. And between the way Pop limits minutes, the Spurs' slow pace, plus the team game they play, the raw numbers were a little misleading. I was just pretty shocked at how close the Per-100 offensive stats really were.

I know instinctively that LeBron is a generational player. But I also know instinctively that Kawhi's defense is pretty damned exceptional - and it doesn't show up on a stat sheet. It's always tough to compare two guys who play a different game, and get their numbers a different way.

No offense, but I'm going to pass on using All-Star appearances in my decision making. But sooner or later people are going to be using Championships to question whether LeBron is as good of a player/teammate as his talent should make him. If not for The Decision, and Miami being able to bring together a ridiculous bunch of talent, he might not have any. Probably wouldn't have any.

Okay, so maybe Kawhi isn't better. But the gap is a lot closer than my first instinct said. The numbers, plus what I "know" about his defense, say so.

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Originally Posted by GSH

Heh. I'm sure you're right. But stats based on 82 games still have some meaning. You either put up the goods or you don't. And between the way Pop limits minutes, the Spurs' slow pace, plus the team game they play, the raw numbers were a little misleading. I was just pretty shocked at how close the Per-100 offensive stats really were.

I know instinctively that LeBron is a generational player. But I also know instinctively that Kawhi's defense is pretty damned exceptional - and it doesn't show up on a stat sheet. It's always tough to compare two guys who play a different game, and get their numbers a different way.

No offense, but I'm going to pass on using All-Star appearances in my decision making. But sooner or later people are going to be using Championships to question whether LeBron is as good of a player/teammate as his talent should make him. If not for The Decision, and Miami being able to bring together a ridiculous bunch of talent, he might not have any. Probably wouldn't have any.

Okay, so maybe Kawhi isn't better. But the gap is a lot closer than my first instinct said. The numbers, plus what I "know" about his defense, say so.

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Most people here are saying they'd take him based on his age, which means they're assuming he's going to continue to improve, which is the only reason I suggested waiting maybe another season. While it's a safe bet that Kawhi will continue to close the gap, there's still a gap.

I'm not sure I could be much happier that there's even a serious discussion about it. I think "over the moon" is probably a good characterization. :lol

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Originally Posted by sasaint

Didn't know that stuff about Lebron and Riles. Just imagine trying to get his entourage on a Spurs team flight! :lol Lebron is all about winning - as long as it's on his terms. :lol

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To be fair the Cavs let him do this from day one when he entered the league at 18. So he feels entitled. He's a spoiled child. But his privilege is based on his performance. What will be interesting to see is in say, 5 years, if he is allowed this stuff when he's not only not the best player in the NBA but not the best player on his own team. Kobe had a lot of privilege in his final years as a Laker as his skills and health declined but a) the Buss children were desperate to please their one big draw and b) Kobe has no entourage.

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Originally Posted by BillMc

To be fair the Cavs let him do this from day one when he entered the league at 18. So he feels entitled. He's a spoiled child. But his privilege is based on his performance. What will be interesting to see in say, 5 years, if he is allowed this stuff when he's not only not the best player in the NBA but not the best player on his own team. Kobe had a lot of privilege in his final years as a Laker as his skills and health decline but a) the Buss children were desperate to please their one big draw and b) Kobe has no entourage, no one even likes him.

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Lebron's spoiled, but he's not an idiot. I wouldn't be shocked if he left Cleveland again. Do the Spurs have enough cap room this summer for him?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Lebron's spoiled, but he's not an idiot. I wouldn't be shocked if he left Cleveland again. Do the Spurs have enough cap room this summer for him?

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He'll never go west. The East is too easy to make the Finals.

Kawhi is so unique to the Spurs. He can play off the ball and on the ball. Lebron isn't the shooter that Kawhi is. He doesn't have the midrange, or 3 to space the floor for the team. I personalty don't think he is the rebounder Kawhi is. Playing powerforward definitely gives him more room for easy rebounds. Post up play is about even. Kawhi is more traditional but Lebron got the bully play. Lebron is the better playmaker though. I give the offense to Kawhi. Not even talking about how way better defensively Kawhi is than Lebron. I even saw some weak ass stats on reddit and ISH comparing both players on defense. First of all, Kawhi is ALWAYS defending the best player all game. I'm sure Lebald does that but only in spot minutes in the fourth. The quality of players Kawhi defends is way better. And that's why Kawhi leads the best defense in the game. Defense hands down goes to Kawhi.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Kawhi has made huge leaps and bounds on a team full of guys that take pressure off him, where still nobody is game-planning for how to stop him by himself.

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I wouldn't say we have a lot of guys taking pressure off him, just LMA.

LeBron has other two guys scoring over 20 ppg in 3 games this series, Kawhi...no one...zero...0.

LeBron averages 23 ppg in 41 mpg against Detroit, Kawhi 21.5 ppg in 33 mpg

Yep, we can say..."just the Grizz" but Kawhi won't have other two guys scoring that much against OKC (only LMA), LeBron will have those guys in the 2nd round.

Kawhi was guarded this series by Tony Allen and Matt Barnes.

LeBron is guarded by a rookie

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Originally Posted by BillMc

He'll never go west. The East is too easy to make the Finals.

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While you are right about the East, he is not going to any team that won't let him run the whole show. He and Pop could NEVER co-exist! :downspin:

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Originally Posted by sasaint

While you are right about the East, he is not going to any team that won't let him run the whole show. He and Pop could NEVER co-exist! :downspin:

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Agree 100%

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Originally Posted by dabom

Lebron isn't the shooter that Kawhi is. He doesn't have the midrange

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Kawhi has developed into a good mid-range shooter. The problem is, those are still sub-50% shots. LeBron took 46% of his shots from inside 3 feet this season, and made 72% of them. His ability to get to the rack is also the reason he gets more FTA's.

I agree that Kawhi's defense is better, and people can argue about whether that tips the scale in his favor. But you can't give the offensive edge to Kawhi until he gets better at getting to the rack. In the playoffs, that's priceless.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

While you are right about the East, he is not going to any team that won't let him run the whole show. He and Pop could NEVER co-exist! :downspin:

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Yeah, that's the issue of whether LeBron is a more desirable player to have on your team. There is definitely some downside to his ego and entourage. They don't have stats for that.

Maybe one porker stan gave it to Kawhi. This is the reason polls on ST are bias much. :lol

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Originally Posted by GSH

Kawhi has developed into a good mid-range shooter. The problem is, those are still sub-50% shots. LeBron took 46% of his shots from inside 3 feet this season, and made 72% of them. His ability to get to the rack is also the reason he gets more FTA's.

I agree that Kawhi's defense is better, and people can argue about whether that tips the scale in his favor. But you can't give the offensive edge to Kawhi until he gets better at getting to the rack. In the playoffs, that's priceless.




Yeah, that's the issue of whether LeBron is a more desirable player to have on your team. There is definitely some downside to his ego and entourage. They don't have stats for that.

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And yet Kawhi has a way better TS% than Lebron. :lol

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Originally Posted by GSH

LeBron took 46% of his shots from inside 3 feet this season, and made 72% of them. His ability to get to the rack is also the reason he gets more FTA's.

I agree that Kawhi's defense is better, and people can argue about whether that tips the scale in his favor. But you can't give the offensive edge to Kawhi until he gets better at getting to the rack. In the playoffs, that's priceless.

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Not all players need to be that aggressive attacking the rim, to be a prolific and efficient scorer.

Curry gets only 0.5 FTA's more than Kawhi and doesn't get to the rack very often.

Of course that Kawhi doesn't have Curry's shot, I'm just saying a player can find his offensive game in a variety of ways.

In Kawhi's case is being a post-up/mid range shooter, he can get better driving to the hoop but he won't force things to draw fouls, it's not the Spurs way.

Even in Parker best scoring season, one of the best in the league at attacking the rim, he had just 5 FTA, Kawhi this regular season, 4.6.

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Originally Posted by dabom

And yet Kawhi has a way better TS% than Lebron. :lol

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Keep laughing, fuckwit. First of all his TS% isn't WAY better - .616 vs .588. Anyone who's watched as much basketball as you claim to have should know that the difference is from Kawhi's 3-pointers. What dumbshits like you don't understand is that 55% of Kawhi's 3-pointers miss, which gives teams like the Warriors the opportunity to get out and run. When LeBron is shooting those 3-foot shots, only 28% of them miss. That's almost exactly half the opportunities to get out and run.

In a 1-point playoff game, do you want Kawhi shooting a 45% shot, or LeBron shooting a 72% shot where he might draw a foul? Sadly, YOU might guess the wrong answer to that one.

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Originally Posted by YGWHI

Not all players need to be that aggressive attacking the rim, to be a prolific and efficient scorer.

Curry gets only 0.5 FTA's more than Kawhi and doesn't get to the rack very often.

Of course that Kawhi doesn't have Curry's shot, I'm just saying a player can find his offensive game in a variety of ways.

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This isn't about Curry or Parker, it's about LeBron. And the one thing you can't get around is that 46% of LeBron's shots were from inside 3 feet, at a .722 FG% - PLUS all the FT's he got to shoot because of those shots. I'm not disrespecting Kawhi, but a guy who can consistently get to the rim and finish gets the team a LOT of easy, high-percentage points. And high-percentage shooting means fewer empty possessions, and fewer chances for the other team to run on the defensive rebounds.

Like it or not, 3-pointers are high-variance. You may score more points per possession, but you have a lot more possessions where you don't score. Like I said above, in a tight game, give me the high-percentage, low-variance shot every time. In any game against Golden State, give me the high-percentage, low-variance shot every time. Yes, there are a lot of ways to generate offense, but layups and dunks are better than the rest. One of the biggest benefits of shooting 3-pointers is that (hopefully) they stretch the defense, and allow you to get more layups and dunks.

Except he needs to be in position for those shots you stupid fuck. Or else he would shoot .80TS% all the fucking time. :lmao

Does this guy know basketball? :lol

LeBrick being carried by Kyrie in the 2nd half two games in a row:wakeup

Kawhi is the best perimeter defender in the NBA right now, and a Top 5 player overall this season.

LeBron is one of the best basketball players OF ALL TIME and a LOCK for the HOF.

Kawhi is still young, so he has plenty of time to build his resume.