NBA will send a memo tomorrow saying Waiters fouled Gino...

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

They acknowledged that and said that was perfectly legal.

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Section IV-Thrower-in
a. A thrower-in shall not (1) carry the ball onto the court; (2) fail to release the ball within 5 seconds; (3) touch it on the court before it has touched another player; (4) leave the designated throw-in spot; (5) throw the ball so that it enters the basket before touching anyone on the court; (6) step over the boundary line while inbounding the ball; (7) cause the ball to go out-of-bounds without being touched inbounds; (8) leave the playing surface to gain an advantage on a throw-in; (9) hand the ball to a player on the court.
EXCEPTION: After a field goal or free throw as a result of a personal foul, the thrower-in may run the end line or pass to a teammate behind the end line.
b. Once an official recognizes the designated player to throw the ball in, there shall be no change of the thrower-in unless the offensive team makes a substitution, there is a regular or 20-second timeout or a suspension of play.



Hmmmm...

You know if Ginobili was inbounding it and shoved off Durant, it would be a Flagrant 2 immediately tbh

Former NBA ref Steve Javie's Interpretations...http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/15...o-spurs-game-2

This goes exactly in line with what I was explaining.

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Originally Posted by coachmac87

1) 5 second violation should've been called.
2) Foul wasn't called
3) Waiters jumped to throw the ball..which is also a penalty.

Ref was less then 5ft away and missed it all. :lmao

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Correct

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

They acknowledged that and said that was perfectly legal.

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They didn't mention whether that same player is allowed to land from said jump in bounds (which Waiters does). And yeah, the Spurs lost the game by themselves for the most part. I just enjoy knowing about rules/making fun of refs.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Eh, it was a bad no-call, but the Spurs didn't deserve this W, tbh..

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That's the predictable, cliche for most in these situations, but it's irrelevant. If deserve had anything to do with winning, the Warriors would have a lot less wins this season. This has been an issue with this team the past two seasons though: They almost never win games they don't deserve.

Also, it's always the Spurs on the receiving end of these against elite teams, in the playoffs. It's never one of the league's it teams.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

That's the predictable, cliche for most in these situations, but it's irrelevant. If deserve had anything to do with winning, the Warriors would have a lot less wins this season. This has been an issue with this team the past two seasons though: They almost never win games they don't deserve.

Also, it's always the Spurs on the receiving end of these against elite teams, in the playoffs. It's never one of the league's it teams.

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Usually I agree with this logic, but by saying they "didn't deserve the W", I wasn't referring to their performance for the entire game, but rather what occurred in the final sequence..

The bad no-call led to Green stripping Durant and getting the ball, which subsequently created a potential 3 on 1 opportunity..if you ask Pop if he would take a 3 on 1 opportunity vs. a timeout with 13 seconds left, there's a good chance he would take the former..

Realistically, the possession the Spurs got out of stealing the inbound pass was probably better than what they would have gotten from a dead ball, especially considering how bad this team has been on set plays in clutch time the past 3 years..

Build a bridge, get over it.

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Usually I agree with this logic, but by saying they "didn't deserve the W", I wasn't referring to their performance for the entire game, but rather what occurred in the final sequence..

The bad no-call led to Green stripping Durant and getting the ball, which subsequently created a potential 3 on 1 opportunity..if you ask Pop if he would take a 3 on 1 opportunity vs. a timeout with 13 seconds left, there's a good chance he would take the former..

Realistically, the possession the Spurs got out of stealing the inbound pass was probably better than what they would have gotten from a dead ball, especially considering how bad this team has been on set plays in clutch time the past 3 years..

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Fair enough, I'm just sick of the Spurs being on the receiving end of these.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

That's the predictable, cliche for most in these situations, but it's irrelevant. If deserve had anything to do with winning, the Warriors would have a lot less wins this season. This has been an issue with this team the past two seasons though: They almost never win games they don't deserve.

Also, it's always the Spurs on the receiving end of these against elite teams, in the playoffs. It's never one of the league's it teams.

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:lol Indeed. It's amazing the Spurs have the 5 titles they do considering how many, or lackthereof, key playoff games they've "stolen." The contrast here were the Lakers, who always pulled wins from the jaws of defeat somehow. Spurs title wins have always been rather dominant runs with few "steals."

The only games we stole were game 5 of the 2005 Finals and Game 6 of the 2003 WCF, when Kerr brought us back from 12 down in the 4th. But that Mavericks team, with or without Dirk, was terrible defensively, so it wasn't surprising we were able to charge back. And we stole a few against the Suns, but it's the Suns :lol

Meanwhile, we've been on the receiving end of:

2002 Lakers coming back in every 4th quarter (we held a 4th quarter lead in all games, and the series still went only 5 games).
0.4.
The Manu on Dirk foul.
Blew a 20 point 3rd quarter lead in game 1 of the 2008 WCF. Blew an 18 point lead in game 5 of that same series.
Blew an 18 point lead in game 6 of the 2012 WCF. Was also the second time the Spurs have been backdoor swept in the Pop/Duncan era.
6
Game 7 in last season's first round. Spurs had multiple late leads in the 4th and couldn't fuckin' close.

I think the differences here vis a vis a team like the Lakers was that Phil wasn't afraid to play Kobe 48 minutes and Shaq 43-45 minutes. And I think Shaq has a few 48 minute playoff games. Pop is obsessed and/or overly concerned with player stamina or just has a massive ego and wants to prove that one of his "clever" Frankenstein rotations will pay off and make him look like a genius. He killed the 2013 title with that shitty rotation to start the 4th. He played Udoka more minutes than Bowen in the '08 WCF. Played Gary Neal way too many fuckin' minutes in the 2012 WCF. Sat Manu in game 1 of the 2011 1st round. And of course, didn't have Kawhi let it all hang out last night (36 minutes WTF?) and killed the momentum we ended the 3rd on by shuffling out one of the worst lineups imaginable.

Training is better than ever. There's 500 TV timeouts per game in the playoffs. There is no excuse to not play your best players 40 plus minutes per game.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

:lol Indeed. It's amazing the Spurs have the 5 titles they do considering how many, or lackthereof, key playoff games they've "stolen." The contrast here were the Lakers, who always pulled wins from the jaws of defeat somehow. Spurs title wins have always been rather dominant runs with few "steals."

The only games we stole were game 5 of the 2005 Finals and Game 6 of the 2003 WCF, when Kerr brought us back from 12 down in the 4th. But that Mavericks team, with or without Dirk, was terrible defensively, so it wasn't surprising we were able to charge back. And we stole a few against the Suns, but it's the Suns :lol

Meanwhile, we've been on the receiving end of:

2002 Lakers coming back in every 4th quarter (we held a 4th quarter lead in all games, and the series still went only 5 games).
0.4.
The Manu on Dirk foul.
Blew a 20 point 3rd quarter lead in game 1 of the 2008 WCF. Blew an 18 point lead in game 5 of that same series.
Blew an 18 point lead in game 6 of the 2012 WCF. Was also the second time the Spurs have been backdoor swept in the Pop/Duncan era.
6
Game 7 in last season's first round. Spurs had multiple late leads in the 4th and couldn't fuckin' close.

I think the differences here vis a vis a team like the Lakers was that Phil wasn't afraid to play Kobe 48 minutes and Shaq 43-45 minutes. And I think Shaq has a few 48 minute playoff games. Pop is obsessed and/or overly concerned with player stamina or just has a massive ego and wants to prove that one of his "clever" Frankenstein rotations will pay off and make him look like a genius. He killed the 2013 title with that shitty rotation to start the 4th. He played Udoka more minutes than Bowen in the '08 WCF. Played Gary Neal way too many fuckin' minutes in the 2012 WCF. Sat Manu in game 1 of the 2011 1st round. And of course, didn't have Kawhi let it all hang out last night (36 minutes WTF?) and killed the momentum we ended the 3rd on by shuffling out one of the worst lineups imaginable.

Training is better than ever. There's 500 TV timeouts per game in the playoffs. There is no excuse to not play your best players 40 plus minutes per game.

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:tu

Always hated this side of him..keep it fuckin' simple..

Unless it is total coaching mismatch (Dwayne Casey types) Pop isn't pulling a fast one against any above average coach nowadays...He was out-coached in the Clippers'15/Mavericks'14 series in two different outcomes.. which is why i don't expect any rabbit out of the hat when he comes up against Kerr..

Something no one ever talks about : game clock operator fucking up our last play in game7, i'm sure LOW IQ Clippers wouldn't foresee the Kawhi alley oop.

Thats the problem. We are not talking about basketball common mistakes. We are talking about external interference in that case, and Waiters foul is a freak foul, not a normal baskebtall mistake that may happen.

Sucks that NBA treats the most correct team like that. We make a point of being respectful and not bash referees on interviews, in front of cameras, etc. And they do us like this? Pathetic, shameful.

The clock operator incident wasn't treated as seriously as it should

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Originally Posted by testies

Something no one ever talks about : game clock operator fucking up our last play in game7, i'm sure LOW IQ Clippers wouldn't foresee the Kawhi alley oop.

Thats the problem. We are not talking about basketball common mistakes. We are talking about external interference in that case, and Waiters foul is a freak foul, not a normal baskebtall mistake that may happen.

Sucks that NBA treats the most correct team like that. We make a point of being respectful and not bash referees on interviews, in front of cameras, etc. And they do us like this? Pathetic, shameful.

The clock operator incident wasn't treated as seriously as it should

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It will happen again in time, book it. They will issue an apology again as well.

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Originally Posted by testies

The clock operator incident wasn't treated as seriously as it should

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

It will happen again in time, book it. They will issue an apology again as well.

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The reason it will keep happening again is because the league has allowed the game do devolve into chaos, to get ratings. They let so much shit go, on literally every play, that when they do decide to make a call people scream. As they probably should. Every guard carries on every dribble - but once in a while they call it. There's a lane violation on just about every FTA, but once in a while they single out one to call. The wrestling around the basket, the "hard hedges" that bash a PG three steps out of his path, the moving screens that they called and then quit calling. The shooters that lunge into a defender, and get whistles - but every now and then the same thing is called a charge. Nobody knows what the fuck the rules are - or at least not how they are going to be used on any given play. Sometimes it seems like the refs aren't even sure.

In this latest debacle, the league brought in their rules specialist (Javie), and he still got it wrong:

1. Rule 12A II: EXCEPTION (5): In the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any over-time period, a technical foul will be assessed if the defender crosses or breaks the plane of the boundary line prior to the ball being released on a throw-in.
2. The clarification, from the Rules Case-Book: With :03.5 remaining in the fourth period and Team A leading 110-109, Team B has the ball out-of-bounds. Player A1, who is guarding the thrower-in, jumps up and down attempting to make it difficult for Player B1 to execute the throw-in. In so doing, he breaks the plane of the out-of-bounds line by landing out-of-bounds on several jumps. What is the ruling? A non-unsportsmanlike technical foul shall be called because the game is in the last two minutes of the fourth period. It is recommended that the official administering the throw-in warn Player A1 to keep his hands and feet from breaking the vertical plane of the boundary line, prior to awarding the ball to Player B1.

So if Javie is supposed to be the ultimate expert, why did he say that it's sort of a discretionary thing? Or that you have to cross the plane more than once? The fact is, outside of the last 2 minutes, the ref is STILL supposed to issue a warning, and give the offensive team a new 5 seconds. Then, on the second violation, there should be a technical. That's not what Javie said, nor what happened. But in the last 2 minutes, the technical is supposed to be automatic. The league can't get it's own damn rules right.

Not that it matters, but did anybody else notice something about the clock starting early? In the tiny bit of time it took for a pass to travel 20 feet or so, .6 seconds ran off the clock - barely more than an eye-blink. But Derek Fisher once caught the ball, stepped, put it on the floor, squared up, and launched a 3-pointer... in just 2/3 that amount of time?

The problem isn't in how the refs call things - the real problem is that they don't call them the same, two times in a row. Everybody talks about "letting them play" in the playoffs. But they don't swallow their whistles. They just use them erratically.

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Originally Posted by GSH

The reason it will keep happening again is because the league has allowed the game do devolve into chaos, to get ratings. They let so much shit go, on literally every play, that when they do decide to make a call people scream. As they probably should. Every guard carries on every dribble - but once in a while they call it. There's a lane violation on just about every FTA, but once in a while they single out one to call. The wrestling around the basket, the "hard hedges" that bash a PG three steps out of his path, the moving screens that they called and then quit calling. The shooters that lunge into a defender, and get whistles - but every now and then the same thing is called a charge. Nobody knows what the fuck the rules are - or at least not how they are going to be used on any given play. Sometimes it seems like the refs aren't even sure.

In this latest debacle, the league brought in their rules specialist (Javie), and he still got it wrong:

1. Rule 12A II: EXCEPTION (5): In the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any over-time period, a technical foul will be assessed if the defender crosses or breaks the plane of the boundary line prior to the ball being released on a throw-in.
2. The clarification, from the Rules Case-Book: With :03.5 remaining in the fourth period and Team A leading 110-109, Team B has the ball out-of-bounds. Player A1, who is guarding the thrower-in, jumps up and down attempting to make it difficult for Player B1 to execute the throw-in. In so doing, he breaks the plane of the out-of-bounds line by landing out-of-bounds on several jumps. What is the ruling? A non-unsportsmanlike technical foul shall be called because the game is in the last two minutes of the fourth period. It is recommended that the official administering the throw-in warn Player A1 to keep his hands and feet from breaking the vertical plane of the boundary line, prior to awarding the ball to Player B1.

So if Javie is supposed to be the ultimate expert, why did he say that it's sort of a discretionary thing? Or that you have to cross the plane more than once? The fact is, outside of the last 2 minutes, the ref is STILL supposed to issue a warning, and give the offensive team a new 5 seconds. Then, on the second violation, there should be a technical. That's not what Javie said, nor what happened. But in the last 2 minutes, the technical is supposed to be automatic. The league can't get it's own damn rules right.

Not that it matters, but did anybody else notice something about the clock starting early? In the tiny bit of time it took for a pass to travel 20 feet or so, .6 seconds ran off the clock - barely more than an eye-blink. But Derek Fisher once caught the ball, stepped, put it on the floor, squared up, and launched a 3-pointer... in just 2/3 that amount of time?

The problem isn't in how the refs call things - the real problem is that they don't call them the same, two times in a row. Everybody talks about "letting them play" in the playoffs. But they don't swallow their whistles. They just use them erratically.

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Nice research.:toast

The NBA might be one of those things that if you study it in more detail you realize the abundance of flaws and it diminishes your enjoyment. Between rule interpretations and injuries there is a huge random factor in any given game/series/season. Yet, over the big picture these even out. That's why the good organizations keep winning and the bad organizations do not.

Death, taxes, and Spurs fans whining about refs....3 things you can't avoid.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

:lol Indeed. It's amazing the Spurs have the 5 titles they do considering how many, or lackthereof, key playoff games they've "stolen." The contrast here were the Lakers, who always pulled wins from the jaws of defeat somehow. Spurs title wins have always been rather dominant runs with few "steals."

The only games we stole were game 5 of the 2005 Finals and Game 6 of the 2003 WCF, when Kerr brought us back from 12 down in the 4th. But that Mavericks team, with or without Dirk, was terrible defensively, so it wasn't surprising we were able to charge back. And we stole a few against the Suns, but it's the Suns :lol

Meanwhile, we've been on the receiving end of:

2002 Lakers coming back in every 4th quarter (we held a 4th quarter lead in all games, and the series still went only 5 games).
0.4.
The Manu on Dirk foul.
Blew a 20 point 3rd quarter lead in game 1 of the 2008 WCF. Blew an 18 point lead in game 5 of that same series.
Blew an 18 point lead in game 6 of the 2012 WCF. Was also the second time the Spurs have been backdoor swept in the Pop/Duncan era.
6
Game 7 in last season's first round. Spurs had multiple late leads in the 4th and couldn't fuckin' close.

I think the differences here vis a vis a team like the Lakers was that Phil wasn't afraid to play Kobe 48 minutes and Shaq 43-45 minutes. And I think Shaq has a few 48 minute playoff games. Pop is obsessed and/or overly concerned with player stamina or just has a massive ego and wants to prove that one of his "clever" Frankenstein rotations will pay off and make him look like a genius. He killed the 2013 title with that shitty rotation to start the 4th. He played Udoka more minutes than Bowen in the '08 WCF. Played Gary Neal way too many fuckin' minutes in the 2012 WCF. Sat Manu in game 1 of the 2011 1st round. And of course, didn't have Kawhi let it all hang out last night (36 minutes WTF?) and killed the momentum we ended the 3rd on by shuffling out one of the worst lineups imaginable.

Training is better than ever. There's 500 TV timeouts per game in the playoffs. There is no excuse to not play your best players 40 plus minutes per game.

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I agree with most of this.

I don't agree with the supposed difference between Jackson and Pop, though. If you adjust for the era and his age/mileage, Pop was running Duncan into the ground, in the playoffs, as recently as last season. In his salad days, he'd routinely play 42-46 mpg and I remember a few 48's, too.

Leonard's minutes, last game, is being somewhat overstated. I didn't mind pulling him early. Off shooting games are one thing, but they simply can no longer afford for him to pull a disappearing act against an elite team in the playoffs, particularly at home. Then the final 5+ of the first half, he tried to get him back in with about 3 left, but there was no stoppage until 20 something seconds left. Granted, he should have burned a timeout. Also, lost amid this, was Aldridge playing 43+.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

They acknowledged that and said that was perfectly legal.

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Section IV-Thrower-in
a. A thrower-in shall not (1) carry the ball onto the court; (2) fail to release the ball within 5 seconds; (3) touch it on the court before it has touched another player; (4) leave the designated throw-in spot; (5) throw the ball so that it enters the basket before touching anyone on the court; (6) step over the boundary line while inbounding the ball; (7) cause the ball to go out-of-bounds without being touched inbounds; (8) leave the playing surface to gain an advantage on a throw-in; (9) hand the ball to a player on the court.
EXCEPTION: After a field goal or free throw as a result of a personal foul, the thrower-in may run the end line or pass to a teammate behind the end line.
b. Once an official recognizes the designated player to throw the ball in, there shall be no change of the thrower-in unless the offensive team makes a substitution, there is a regular or 20-second timeout or a suspension of play.
PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opposing team at the original spot of the throw-in.

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Originally Posted by tholdren

Section IV-Thrower-in
a. A thrower-in shall not (1) carry the ball onto the court; (2) fail to release the ball within 5 seconds; (3) touch it on the court before it has touched another player; (4) leave the designated throw-in spot; (5) throw the ball so that it enters the basket before touching anyone on the court; (6) step over the boundary line while inbounding the ball; (7) cause the ball to go out-of-bounds without being touched inbounds; (8) leave the playing surface to gain an advantage on a throw-in; (9) hand the ball to a player on the court.
EXCEPTION: After a field goal or free throw as a result of a personal foul, the thrower-in may run the end line or pass to a teammate behind the end line.
b. Once an official recognizes the designated player to throw the ball in, there shall be no change of the thrower-in unless the offensive team makes a substitution, there is a regular or 20-second timeout or a suspension of play.
PENALTY: Loss of ball. The ball is awarded to the opposing team at the original spot of the throw-in.

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See! 'Perfectly legal'...........jeez!

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Originally Posted by GSH

The reason it will keep happening again is because the league has allowed the game do devolve into chaos, to get ratings. They let so much shit go, on literally every play, that when they do decide to make a call people scream. As they probably should. Every guard carries on every dribble - but once in a while they call it. There's a lane violation on just about every FTA, but once in a while they single out one to call. The wrestling around the basket, the "hard hedges" that bash a PG three steps out of his path, the moving screens that they called and then quit calling. The shooters that lunge into a defender, and get whistles - but every now and then the same thing is called a charge. Nobody knows what the fuck the rules are - or at least not how they are going to be used on any given play. Sometimes it seems like the refs aren't even sure.

In this latest debacle, the league brought in their rules specialist (Javie), and he still got it wrong:

1. Rule 12A II: EXCEPTION (5): In the last two minutes of the fourth period and/or any over-time period, a technical foul will be assessed if the defender crosses or breaks the plane of the boundary line prior to the ball being released on a throw-in.
2. The clarification, from the Rules Case-Book: With :03.5 remaining in the fourth period and Team A leading 110-109, Team B has the ball out-of-bounds. Player A1, who is guarding the thrower-in, jumps up and down attempting to make it difficult for Player B1 to execute the throw-in. In so doing, he breaks the plane of the out-of-bounds line by landing out-of-bounds on several jumps. What is the ruling? A non-unsportsmanlike technical foul shall be called because the game is in the last two minutes of the fourth period. It is recommended that the official administering the throw-in warn Player A1 to keep his hands and feet from breaking the vertical plane of the boundary line, prior to awarding the ball to Player B1.

So if Javie is supposed to be the ultimate expert, why did he say that it's sort of a discretionary thing? Or that you have to cross the plane more than once? The fact is, outside of the last 2 minutes, the ref is STILL supposed to issue a warning, and give the offensive team a new 5 seconds. Then, on the second violation, there should be a technical. That's not what Javie said, nor what happened. But in the last 2 minutes, the technical is supposed to be automatic. The league can't get it's own damn rules right.

Not that it matters, but did anybody else notice something about the clock starting early? In the tiny bit of time it took for a pass to travel 20 feet or so, .6 seconds ran off the clock - barely more than an eye-blink. But Derek Fisher once caught the ball, stepped, put it on the floor, squared up, and launched a 3-pointer... in just 2/3 that amount of time?

The problem isn't in how the refs call things - the real problem is that they don't call them the same, two times in a row. Everybody talks about "letting them play" in the playoffs. But they don't swallow their whistles. They just use them erratically.

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Good job man, interesting.


I agree on the part of why it will happen again too, no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Sean Cagney

Good job man, interesting.


I agree on the part of why it will happen again too, no doubt.

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Not to the Warriors. They'll make sure they it doesn't go against them. I've never seen a block call / charge call go to replay only to be reversed, never, until it happened with Steph Curry.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

I agree with most of this.

I don't agree with the supposed difference between Jackson and Pop, though. If you adjust for the era and his age/mileage, Pop was running Duncan into the ground, in the playoffs, as recently as last season. In his salad days, he'd routinely play 42-46 mpg and I remember a few 48's, too.

Leonard's minutes, last game, is being somewhat overstated. I didn't mind pulling him early. Off shooting games are one thing, but they simply can no longer afford for him to pull a disappearing act against an elite team in the playoffs, particularly at home. Then the final 5+ of the first half, he tried to get him back in with about 3 left, but there was no stoppage until 20 something seconds left. Granted, he should have burned a timeout. Also, lost amid this, was Aldridge playing 43+.

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I definitely remember him playing Duncan major minutes. The Spurs just weren't deep in those days at any position. But once Manu and Parker developed and Pop moved into his "deep bench" era, he's kid gloved players a bit too much.

How is Manu only getting 32 minutes in this game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605130DAL.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UZER

Not to the Warriors. They'll make sure they it doesn't go against them. I've never seen a block call / charge call go to replay only to be reversed, never, until it happened with Steph Curry.

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Well you are right about that, true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

I definitely remember him playing Duncan major minutes. The Spurs just weren't deep in those days at any position. But once Manu and Parker developed and Pop moved into his "deep bench" era, he's kid gloved players a bit too much.

How is Manu only getting 32 minutes in this game:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...605130DAL.html

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That, plus it was a sign of the times and Duncan seemed indefatigable.

He always did baby Ginobili too much though. He claimed it was because of his reckless, all out nature, but Parker was playing faster and getting to the rim more than probably anyone in the league, yet he played closer to typical star minutes in that era.

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Originally Posted by Keepin' it real

Ginobili's flopping reputation may have contributed to the no-call.

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ARE YOU KIDDING? Blatant foul!