How Summer League is Improving Simmons and Anderson

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-antonio-...derson-simmons


From Becky:

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"It's not so much about defending the title," Hammon explained. "We're gonna go in there, and we're gonna try to win. But the main thing is our guys get better, we don't get injured. For me, I need that work of managing that game, holding that clipboard, calling timeouts, dialoguing with these guys."

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For those who were hoping to see Anderson and Simmons sent home and other players being featured, it's unlikely to happen:

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Based on the team's moves thus far in free agency, it's become increasingly clear the Spurs expect to ramp up the minutes for Anderson and Simmons as the club scours the roster for an infusion of youth and athleticism on its aging bench, which has been decimated by recent losses of David West, Boris Diaw andBoban Marjanovic among others.
The Spurs asked Anderson and Simmons to attend three-hour sessions (2 hours and 20 minutes are dedicated to on-court work), four days per week (Monday through Thursday) at the team's facilities over the summer, and both have even voluntarily kicked up those sessions to five, and sometimes six days per week.

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This to me sounds like Pop will look at the two of them to step up their games and take more significant roles for the team. Although a lot of fans have pitted them against each other and we all have our favorite, as I suspected they play better as a tandem and have undeniable chemistry. By now, Kyle and Simmons have developed together for 2 years. You can cry if you want to. Kyle and JSimms will play a lot more and be more important for the bench this season.

What Kyle said:

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"It's a bunch of things, really [I'm working to improve]. I would say shooting is a big focal point, getting stronger, playing longer stretches of minutes. I'm not sure. There's a bunch of things we're working on."

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For Simmons:

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He's working to tweak his jumper by keeping the ball away from his face, which in turn will result in him being "taller" upon release. He stated of himself and Anderson: "We've put in a lot of work this summer because we're both looking to improve our games in as many areas as we can," Simmons said.

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I definitely noticed in the one game Simmons went off scoring that he was hitting the midrange jumpshot much better than I ever saw him do that.

A reason why we see perhaps too much iso or specific sets or plays for them:

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For the Spurs, summer league isn't so much about the overall team dynamic as much as individual improvement for the players they'd like to keep close tabs on during the games. The Spurs typically go into competition focused on a just few key players, and they're looking for each of those players to meet specific criteria.

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The guys being featured are for sure being evaluated.

What Becky said of both guys:

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"This is a great experience for them. They get out on the court, and they're going against quality competition in an organized setting. It's not like you're just playing pickup in the summer time. This is a great setting for them to be in situations like this. That's how you build confidence in them, and that's how coaches get confidence in them, too. If they see that putting Kyle in as a decision maker at the end of the game is a good option for us… there's different things that we're always trying to pick up, learn on and also stretch them mentally, and get them better as well as work on their individual game."

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Good stuff. I watched some highlights from Saturday's game and definitely liked what I saw. Really hoping these guys can contribute in the next couple seasons. We are going to need it.

Sorry but Simmons is trash.

Exciting stuff. :tu

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-antonio-...derson-simmons


From Becky:


For those who were hoping to see Anderson and Simmons sent home and other players being featured, it's unlikely to happen:



This to me sounds like Pop will look at the two of them to step up their games and take more significant roles for the team. Although a lot of fans have pitted them against each other and we all have our favorite, as I suspected they play better as a tandem and have undeniable chemistry. By now, Kyle and Simmons have developed together for 2 years. You can cry if you want to. Kyle and JSimms will play a lot more and be more important for the bench this season.

What Kyle said:


For Simmons:
I definitely noticed in the one game Simmons went off scoring that he was hitting the midrange jumpshot much better than I ever saw him do that.

A reason why we see perhaps too much iso or specific sets or plays for them:

The guys being featured are for sure being evaluated.

What Becky said of both guys:

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Good find!

Looks like Spurs are going to take seriously their 'rebuilding'.

It is indeed tough because Spurs are expected to compete at the elite level.

LOL... probably not the best time to talk about how SL is improving those two guys. Last night it turned them into junior college players.

All jokes aside, thanks for posting. It explains a lot of what the Spurs are thinking. And I really like knowing that they are putting those two guys through dedicated training sessions this summer, and that they are embracing it. That's exactly what I had hoped they would do with Boban, had he stayed. If it elevates KA and Simmons' games, that's a big plus for this season.

Sometimes when an athlete is in the middle of working on his/her game, things become awkward and mechanical, until the adjustments become second nature. I'm going to tell myself that's what we saw last night from those two.

Great OP. Really adds perspective.

Simmons hasn't looked great in SL and Anderson has had bad moments, especially jumping to make passes with nowhere to go. But they'll be able to eat minutes this year. I don't have strong faith that Simmons will improve too much - although this is the largest concentration of coaching he's received in his life - but he still is useful.

I've got a bad feeling about the bench this year.

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Originally Posted by benefactor

I've got a bad feeling about the bench this year.

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I feel like it's going to be fast and furious. I'm thinking something like the Neal/Manu/Jack/Bonner/Splitter days. Only concern is that Manu/Simmons/Anderson is still an awkward fit (not too different than Murray/Simmons/Anderson in the summer league). Would rather see a shooter in place of one of those guys.

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Originally Posted by LongtimeSpursFan

Sorry but Simmons is trash.

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Nice analysis as usual.

Good synopsis OP, I really like both players. Hopefully in the upcoming season the Spurs don't sign any washed up vets who steal their minutes and still need to learn the system.

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Originally Posted by GSH

LOL... probably not the best time to talk about how SL is improving those two guys. Last night it turned them into junior college players.

All jokes aside, thanks for posting. It explains a lot of what the Spurs are thinking. And I really like knowing that they are putting those two guys through dedicated training sessions this summer, and that they are embracing it. That's exactly what I had hoped they would do with Boban, had he stayed. If it elevates KA and Simmons' games, that's a big plus for this season.

Sometimes when an athlete is in the middle of working on his/her game, things become awkward and mechanical, until the adjustments become second nature. I'm going to tell myself that's what we saw last night from those two.

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Good to hear that they are working on tweaking Simmons game.

These two players apparently have a license to 'ball-hog' in summer league. Everyone else really just needs to play their role. That's the problem with Murray, he thinks he needs to come in and show case his game. That's why he paid insurance to play in SL. He is desperate to show off, unfortunately, despite all his obvious talents, he needs a couple of years of seasoning in D-league. There's a reason why teams like the 76ers with loads of lottery pick talent lose so many games. It takes more than talent to play an efficient game.... Spurs are all about efficiency.

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Originally Posted by ceperez

Good to hear that they are working on tweaking Simmons game.

These two players apparently have a license to 'ball-hog' in summer league. Everyone else really just needs to play their role. That's the problem with Murray, he thinks he needs to come in and show case his game. That's why he paid insurance to play in SL. He is desperate to show off, unfortunately, despite all his obvious talents, he needs a couple of years of seasoning in D-league. There's a reason why teams like the 76ers with loads of lottery pick talent lose so many games. It takes more than talent to play an efficient game.... Spurs are all about efficiency.

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He bought insurance in order to show off? Dude, maybe you should sit out for a little while.

I miss the Mills-Manu-Belinelli-Diaw-Baynes days :depressed

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Originally Posted by benefactor

I've got a bad feeling about the bench this year.

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Me too. There's so many question marks.

Can Mills regain his shot?
Can Manu lead the bench unit again?
Hoping Anderson and Simmons take the next step is frightening.
Dedmon will bring much needed energy and defense but can he stay out of foul trouble?

Obviously rooting for those guys to pull it together but if not I hope Bertans and/or Murray maybe force their way into that unit.

Random thoughts:

How about an experiment where the two of them feature in the SL:

So, Gasol and Lamarcus, then Leonard, Simmons and Anderson at point.....

why not??

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the bench would be deadly:

Parker, Manu and Green as bench core, with various templates .....

hows that??

just an opinion, dont get mad at me guys, haha

Good stuff. Hope they can contribute. We will need it.

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Originally Posted by loveforthegame

Me too. There's so many question marks.

Can Mills regain his shot?
Can Manu lead the bench unit again?
Hoping Anderson and Simmons take the next step is frightening.
Dedmon will bring much needed energy and defense but can he stay out of foul trouble?

Obviously rooting for those guys to pull it together but if not I hope Bertans and/or Murray maybe force their way into that unit.

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How close can KA get to becoming new Manu? In passing at least.

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Originally Posted by cutewizard

Random thoughts:

How about an experiment where the two of them feature in the SL:

So, Gasol and Lamarcus, then Leonard, Simmons and Anderson at point.....

why not??

----------------------------------------------------------------------

the bench would be deadly:

Parker, Manu and Green as bench core, with various templates .....

hows that??

just an opinion, dont get mad at me guys, haha

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I really think KA needs to start at PG because of his passing. Starting units got no passing, which really, everyone needs to improve upon. Dont see the advantage of Simmons over Green though. We need Greens 3 pt shooting.

The bench is the big question mark going into the season for sure.

I'm not a big fan of KA or Simmons. I think they are both fringe NBA players at this point and we are going to count on them a lot this year. Manu is a year older and cannot make up for the deficiencies of the bench unit anymore. Patty is solid but he can be very streaky and really is an undersized SG.

Bertans/Dedmon/Murray etc are all unknowns. So if KA and Simmons don't make the leap this year until legitimate 6th/7th men, then it's going to be a long year for the bench. (Assuming one of the unknowns is not able to jump into those rules if KA/Simmons fail).

I'm agreeing. I see this bench as our worst in a long time. Silver lining: we'll get a lot of practice trying to win close games now.

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Originally Posted by skulls138

How close can KA get to becoming new Manu? In passing at least.

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I think Diaw is a better comparison. The thing with Anderson is aggressiveness. He has it in summer league but not with the big club yet.

Simmons has hope. Kyle is just worthless, even though he seems like a good guy, as a player, I'm sorry. ..worthless. just watch okc series.

Simmons and Kyle dribble deep into the teeth of the defense over and over and over. It's maddening to watch. I can't see how that's by design.

Kyle's jumper looked like it had improved in Utah. After three more games, I'm thinking that beautiful three he hit in the first game was just a fluke. He's so crafty and aware of what's going on that it makes up for a lot of flaws in his game, but that just makes him a placeholder on the big team, which doesn't really do if the other team starts scoring points as soon as he comes into the game.

Simmons can't shoot, he can't defend, he can't pass, he can't make good decisions. Frankly he doesn't look like an NBA player at this point, which is really disappointing.

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Originally Posted by Kikoluna

Simmons has hope. Kyle is just worthless, even though he seems like a good guy, as a player, I'm sorry. ..worthless. just watch okc series.

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If anything you have it backwards. So I guess that's impressive.

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Originally Posted by cutewizard

Random thoughts:

How about an experiment where the two of them feature in the SL:

So, Gasol and Lamarcus, then Leonard, Simmons and Anderson at point.....

why not??

----------------------------------------------------------------------

the bench would be deadly:

Parker, Manu and Green as bench core, with various templates .....

hows that??

just an opinion, dont get mad at me guys, haha

---

http://images.shirts.com/products/13...shirt-logo.jpg

Appreciate they put in the work over the summer, tbh... still not convinced either has a niche they can grow to be difference-maker at. I don't think the SL and that level of competition is really going to answer that.

Murray is just getting his feet wet, tbh, gonna have to wait another season or two, some games against the pros to see what we have there. Just from the get go, you can see he needs to bulk up a bit, he's way too skinny. Reminds me of Leonard or George Hill when they were rooks.

The thing with the bench is going to be cohesion, building together a unit again where everybody has their role, and understand what they're doing. There's also a talent issue, especially if neither of these two guys take a step forward.
The bench really mattered against the 2-3 top teams in the league last season. They were fine against the rest, but because the rest sucked.

But it's also true we're a way more top-heavy team now, tbh, so the concerns with the bench are relative, and have more to do with Pop and his "rest" than anything else.

Spurs have always excelled when their bench was one of the best in the league. We might be in for a very long season...

The 2014 Title run showed how good our bench was when our bench actually increased the lead on Miami's starters in Game 5.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Simmons and Kyle dribble deep into the teeth of the defense over and over and over. It's maddening to watch. I can't see how that's by design.

Kyle's jumper looked like it had improved in Utah. After three more games, I'm thinking that beautiful three he hit in the first game was just a fluke. He's so crafty and aware of what's going on that it makes up for a lot of flaws in his game, but that just makes him a placeholder on the big team, which doesn't really do if the other team starts scoring points as soon as he comes into the game.

Simmons can't shoot, he can't defend, he can't pass, he can't make good decisions. Frankly he doesn't look like an NBA player at this point, which is really disappointing.

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Yeah, as I said on the other thread, I don't think this SL has shown us anything different from them, other than Kyle bulking up. Which is disappointing. But there's always the chance that once their roles change on the big team, there might be something there they've been working on we can't see here because they're being featured.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Yeah, as I said on the other thread, I don't think this SL has shown us anything different from them, other than Kyle bulking up. Which is disappointing. But there's always the chance that once their roles change on the big team, there might be something there they've been working on we can't see here because they're being featured.

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That's another thing that annoys the fuck out of me: Kawhi was sent to SL and told specifically to be aggressive and to initiate the offense, because that's what Pop wanted from him. There's no fucking way that the Spurs think that Kyle or Simmons are going to be all-stars. They're going to be camped out waiting for threes. Why fucking feature them? If Kyle did the shit he does a dozen times per SL game in a regular game, Pop would bench him for a week.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

That's another thing that annoys the fuck out of me: Kawhi was sent to SL and told specifically to be aggressive and to initiate the offense, because that's what Pop wanted from him. There's no fucking way that the Spurs think that Kyle or Simmons are going to be all-stars. They're going to be camped out waiting for threes. Why fucking feature them? If Kyle did the shit he does a dozen times per SL game in a regular game, Pop would bench him for a week.

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I can only guess but I think they're looking for aggressiveness, something they clearly lacked last season in general. But I don't see that either. Last night I got tired of hearing the ESPN2 guys say "I think Slomo might need to take over" during the second half, but I don't think that's who Kyle really is, and that can be problematic. If they're unwilling/unable at this level, it's just not going to happen against the Pros.

My best guess would be that Pop wants to see if either Simmons or KA can lead the bench unit for stretches. Assuming that is correct I don't think either one has shown that so far

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I can only guess but I think they're looking for aggressiveness, something they clearly lacked last season in general. But I don't see that either. Last night I got tired of hearing the ESPN2 guys say "I think Slomo might need to take over" during the second half, but I don't think that's who Kyle really is, and that can be problematic. If they're unwilling/unable at this level, it's just not going to happen against the Pros.

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I agree. Letting them make mistakes that they can get away with because they're physically superior to summer league competition makes no sense. It was nice to see that Becky Hammon didn't seem to give a shit whether or not the Spurs actually won that game. I certainly don't watch with wins and losses in mind.

I understand trying to coach aggressiveness into Kawhi, because building confidence and letting him know that the Spurs believed in him were both massively important. Coaching aggressiveness in either Simmons or Anderson is just irresponsible and a waste of summer league altogether. Kyle is aware enough of game situations that he can be aggressive when it's necessary. Just because he's slow doesn't make him Austin Daye. And giving a green light to Simmons seems like letting a bull lose in a china shop. He's been terrible. Someone needs to reign him the fuck in so he can start contributing.

Tell them to play solid. Tell them to play smart. Tell them to make the best pass, don't turn the ball over, and always be in position. THAT is what you want from them on the big team.

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Originally Posted by ernest787

My best guess would be that Pop wants to see if either Simmons or KA can lead the bench unit for stretches. Assuming that is correct I don't think either one has shown that so far

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You got that right. I'm not sure how coaching them into turnovers and bad shots is going to do anything but make them even more scared to make a mistake. But Pop is a psych major. Maybe that's what he wants.

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Originally Posted by loveforthegame

I think Diaw is a better comparison. The thing with Anderson is aggressiveness. He has it in summer league but not with the big club yet.

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I agree that Anderson is closer in style to Diaw but I dont see KA being nearly as effective as Diaw staying in the Diaw mold. Maybe because Diaw has more size or that he has a better shot but...yeah KA needs more aggressiveness and needs to bring more....he just needs to bring more.

I get the sense that as others have mentioned elsewhere, this is the season they need to have an impact.

I do think their best games in SL, where everyone scored and they got a lot of open 3s were games where they pushed the tempo. Kyle is terrific finding ppl in transition and transition scoring is in reality the best part of JSimms game. He can get nearly unstoppable in transition. The athletic big they got (Dedmon) complements this style very well too.

It seemed last game they deliberately slowed the pace down to practice their half court sets. The game stayed in the halfcourt with the exception of the times Murray took off on his own. I thought Spurs wanted to see Kyle and JSimms perform when the game slows down and it wasn't very pretty. JSimms struggled against set defenses and it wasn't a very efficient game from Kyle either. I think he was looking to pass on the sets they called for him, which made him seemed hesitant and got him in trouble as he got stripped a couple of times if I remember correctly bc he stood around to "survey" the situation. He has to be more decisive if he's going to heroball, it's a different mindset.

In reality, I don't think those sets are meant to be that stagnant, but the supporting cast in SL doesn't know secondary actions or to cut or move without the ball, so they just stood around. And since Becky didn't yell for ppl to move, maybe they did want to see what the two of them could do if they were forced to heroball a little and take it upon themselves to getting it done. The reason? Just last playoffs there was nobody in the bench that could get a bucket against the Thunder. Kyle was parked in a corner. It wasn't his time and it wasn't going to be on him to save those guys from that situation. We may think that it's not needed for Kyle or Jsimms to sometimes take it upon themselves to get a bucket and heroball, but there are times that maybe it is exactly needed. They placed Kyle at one point with a bench of entirely non rotation players and he had to get buckets for himself. It was weird and I didn't like it, but viewed in context, I see what they were doing.

It may seem scary to rely on these two more, but we had some very old vets in that bench last season, including 3 NBA champions that one felt more confident about, and yet it turned out they were too old, undersized and/or slow and Mills too streaky to be the first option, and they were unable to score in 6 consecutive games. They actually started scoring when they went perimeter with Kyle as a stretch 4. They had to go a different direction.

As for Manu, I don't know how he fits in this. He's not the swiftest guy at this point and he struggles against elite athletes and set defenses himself, but I would guess he's more vet support and a complementary player at this point. It may really be the Kyle/JSimms show with Mills/Bertans running out to the 3, swap Manu/Bertans as you please. I imagine Manu will still run the PnR with Dedmon in the half court sets and other stuff... but the bench shouldn't revolve around Manu so much. Ideally they would help these two be more assertive. Just some thoughts.

The biggest problem I see for Simmons is engagement on defense. It's not that he sucks, he just takes possessions off. And when you go into the overall of it, a 38/39 year old Manu is 20x the defender he is on just putting in the work.

Obviously, you can't put Manu against guys like Westbrook anymore, the athletic difference is just too great at this point to overcome with mere savvy. I just don't know if Simms doesn't care too much because it's the SL, but Pop won't let him get away with it, I don't think.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

The biggest problem I see for Simmons is engagement on defense. It's not that he sucks, he just takes possessions off. And when you go into the overall of it, a 38/39 year old Manu is 20x the defender he is on just putting in the work.

Obviously, you can't put Manu against guys like Westbrook anymore, the athletic difference is just too great at this point to overcome with mere savvy. I just don't know if Simms doesn't care too much because it's the SL, but Pop won't let him get away with it, I don't think.

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Bottom line for him. He needs to make it this season. If he's really not cutting it Spurs will go a different direction. But I am holding off judgement bc this is still work in progress. Kawhi didn't look that pretty either the season he started to get featured. He actually got in trouble and stuck on his post ups and those sets were ugly and stagnant as heck. He got better, but it took time.

Good read and insight. With Bobo gone, it's pretty clear they plan to amp up Slow Mo's minutes and play him for long stretches at the 4. Given that, it also makes sense that they'd lean on Simmons to provide depth alongside, and not necessarily in place of, either Anderson or Manu as a 3.

Everyone else is just along for the ride this SL, though I do wonder if the Spurs will use this time to figure out if one of Arci, Forbes or Hanlan are worth keeping on the 15-man roster.

Yeah I agree with a lot of this thread. Simmons doesn't look like an NBA player to me. And KA still doesn't show me anything he can be elite or excel at in this league. Going to be a growing pain year for the bench.

If that's the plan then the Spurs are basically throwing everything they have at a problem and hoping something sticks. The worst thing about this is that the other bench guys that have potential to be rotational players can't even get contracts signed to play in the summer league. It doesn't have a super great impact but at least you see glimpses of what to expect early on for TC purposes.

Simmons doesn't have it in him to run an offense.. His physical gifts are that of a slasher/shooter.. He has poor handles when anyone checks him, he over dribbles, or dribbles too high and gets caught up making him pick up his dribble. Can he fix that? Probably but why would he really need to do that when his vision is pretty mediocre. He guy should be working on coming off screens and curling towards the basket or stepping back for a 3.. Moving without the ball will help him actually be productive in the offense and being able to hit open shots makes him an actual commodity on the bench.

Kyle having the ball in his hand is okay.. It feels sometimes like he's taking it serious and then others he's just doing whatever.. He has great vision sometimes but others he looks like he has no idea what he's doing and just being overaggressive for no reason. That kind of play doesn't work on the bench at all.. The bench needs to be free form and wheeling and dealing passes trying to get the best shot available because none of those bench guys are going to be impressive standing around waiting to go ISO. The thing is even with that being said the SL roster is not really a move the ball, pass happy team.. Forbes gets lost in the mix, hasn't hit his shot to command the extra pass, Cummings is a black hole, Lelanne can't shoot, Williams is all be lost on the team. I hate to sound like a broken record but if LJC and Bertans were actually on the roster it would be a little more telling of what we can expect from Kyle as a 2nd unit ball handler.

Murray is a curious case because he gets inserted into a lineup that has ball dominant players in Kyle and Simmons and how does he fit in all of it.. The thing that I get the most from him is that he has ALPHA all over him and that's why he pushes the issue and takes shots and forces the issue because he wants to exert himself into the mix and show that he has a place there. Is this a great idea for SL and will it help him? Not really.. I mean he was put in a bad situation by being in this mix and not being the dominant ball handler but he just wanted to play. I see a ton of great things from him and the potential to do great things but he's just not with a team that will utilize those strengths quite yet. I'm hoping he doesn't get discouraged when he gets sent to Austin and spends moments on the bench for extended periods of time. Obviously the Spurs are inclined to give more minutes and touches to Kyle and Simmons.

He really needs to fix that jump shot ASAP, consistency is super duper important. He waves off a lot of screens because he knows that eventually guards will just go under them and dare him to hit the jumper.. The good news is that he is fast enough off the first step to get by players or create room..

Exciting times to be a young piece in SA

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Originally Posted by AFBlue

Good read and insight. With Bobo gone, it's pretty clear they plan to amp up Slow Mo's minutes and play him for long stretches at the 4. Given that, it also makes sense that they'd lean on Simmons to provide depth alongside, and not necessarily in place of, either Anderson or Manu as a 3.

Everyone else is just along for the ride this SL, though I do wonder if the Spurs will use this time to figure out if one of Arci, Forbes or Hanlan are worth keeping on the 15-man roster.

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I have no shot charts to substantiate my belief. But just watching the games in the latter part of the season I thought that Manu's role was already changing. The days when he was primarily a driver/slasher are pretty much over. I expect him primarily to be a spot-up 3-point shooter this season. That role is very consistent with what has been said about Kyle and Juice going forward. The team is hoping that Simmons becomes the slasher and Kyle the playmaker on the second unit.

I had hoped they would keep Boban who was a menace near the basket and that Mavs game to end the season gave us a preview of how it would look like. All of Boban, Anderson and Simmons scored efficiently and Bobans presence in the paint actually prevented bench bigs from wanting to help off him which made it easier for Simms to get into the paint and Kyle ran some pretty side PnR throwing lobs to Boban or just scoring himself. With Boban gone, I think they just had to look a different direction. It is what it is, an opportunity for them, but it's growing pains.

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Originally Posted by sasaint

I have no shot charts to substantiate my belief. But just watching the games in the latter part of the season I thought that Manu's role was already changing. The days when he was primarily a driver/slasher are pretty much over. I expect him primarily to be a spot-up 3-point shooter this season. That role is very consistent with what has been said about Kyle and Juice going forward. The team is hoping that Simmons becomes the slasher and Kyle the playmaker on the second unit.

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Yup that's basically it. And it goes with everything Simms specially has said aboug them looking for each other and trying to make each other better. In reality they were better together than when they were separated.

Anderson's role will increase by default. At this writing, he's clearly in line to be the first forward off the bench and will probably take on more secondary play making responsibilities.

Simmons' role will probably be similar to what it was in the first half of last season, which is fringe rotation (competing with yet to be signed veteran power forward and Bertans) and 3 and D, even though he specializes in neither.

Anyone who thinks Ginobili, who's still the best play maker on the team, is going to be reduced to spot up shooter while these two nobodies play Summer League against NBA rotation players, is delusional.

Wish Hanga was playing I think he can take Simmons place he is just as athletic and a much better defender.

yeah there is no way Manu's role is being reduced. He will still run the second unit offense, and that is for good reason. Manu is still the best passer on the team and probably has the best court vision of anyone on the team. He knows the offense, and while he is not anywhere near as explosive as he used to be, he is savvy enough that he can still get to the basket. He just doesn't attack like he used to.

The problem with KA and Simmons is that both are solid in several areas, but neither is elite at anything. KA is a solid passer. He has solid court vision. He's proven to be a solid on ball defense, but he's not special at anything. The Diaw comparisons are frustrating b/c Diaw has elite court vision and passing and KA just doesn't have that in my opinion.

I want to be proven wrong and hope they both end up having fantastic seasons. I just don't see it. I think KA is destined to be an end of the rotation NBA player. While I'm not sure Simmons is a NBA player at all.

Finally... Murray is going to be good if he works hard. Watching SL you can easily tell he is the best player on the court. He wasn't always in control and he iso'ed a bit, but it's his 2nd game. He also needs to work on his shot. but he has the athleticism and the confidence you are looking for. I'm excited to watch him develop.

Manu is just going to play backup PG, like he's been for the last few years... that's why i wanted to see more of Kyle playing off the ball and see if he's any more effective at that now, but it won't happen in the SL, apparently.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Manu is just going to play backup PG, like he's been for the last few years... that's why i wanted to see more of Kyle playing off the ball and see if he's any more effective at that now, but it won't happen in the SL, apparently.

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Playing off the ball is the easiest form to learn in the nba. If fathead can't play it, what makes us think he can be ready to distribute at an NBA contender.

Dude stalls the offense in the second unit too much.

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Originally Posted by ernest787

The problem with KA and Simmons is that both are solid in several areas, but neither is elite at anything. KA is a solid passer. He has solid court vision. He's proven to be a solid on ball defense, but he's not special at anything. The Diaw comparisons are frustrating b/c Diaw has elite court vision and passing and KA just doesn't have that in my opinion.

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That generally applies to all bench players. That's why they're on the bench.

Great find and commentary OP.

I've resigned myself to thinking that this coming year is about reloading rather than true title contention. It's the first time in my Spurs fandom where i can really say I feel that way, but I'm actually fairly excited about it. I find myself more interested in the draft, free agency, summer league, d league/stashes, etc. than before.

Should be an interesting evolution from here until Leonard hits free agency again to see what talent they're ultimately able to put around him. Of course the hope is some of these guys like Anderson and Simmons become long term contributors, but I'm just as interested to see which are converted into other perhaps more impact assets.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Manu is just going to play backup PG, like he's been for the last few years... that's why i wanted to see more of Kyle playing off the ball and see if he's any more effective at that now, but it won't happen in the SL, apparently.

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I think the best game that we saw of that was the Philly game, he screened for PnP 3s and spotted up for 3s. He will post up and do his own thing same as Boris did at times because he needs to develop, but his off the ball play involved a two man game with Simmons screening at the 3 pt line a lot and he moved to the 3 point line when he was open, instead of passing up 3 point shots like we had previously seen him do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7N7G4wCt3I
Think of Boris off the ball play. He was often involved in play actions with the guards anyways and he scored on his own pretty much too, a much needed aspect for the bench.

Spurs should trade high on both these guys, tbh.

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Originally Posted by dabom

Playing off the ball is the easiest form to learn in the nba. If fathead can't play it, what makes us think he can be ready to distribute at an NBA contender.

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I dunno about that. Some players just like to have touches, don't move without the ball... You could've criticized Belli for a lot of things, but his off the ball play was very, very good... and you need guys like that.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

I think the best game that we saw of that was the Philly game, he screened for PnP 3s and spotted up for 3s. He will post up and do his own thing same as Boris did at times because he needs to develop, but his off the ball play involved a two man game with Simmons screening at the 3 pt line a lot and he moved to the 3 point line when he was open, instead of passing up 3 point shots like we had previously seen him do.

Think of Boris off the ball play. He was often involved in play actions with the guards anyways and he scored on his own pretty much too, a much needed aspect for the bench.

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I think you need to get through your head that the Spurs are not into developing players during the season. We're not in rebuild mode, that's why they had both of these guys work on what they needed to work on during the summer, and the SL is somewhat an extension of that. Pop isn't going to play guys because "he needs to develop them". If a player needs development time, he'll go to the Austin Spurs. Kyle, Simms did that and now probably Murray will do that too.

The expectations with these "vet-rookies" if you will, is that they've already developed their game/niche enough where Pop can throw them into a game and they can produce. If they're not there, then they won't play.

I mean, there's going to be some time to gel, obviously, but it's not about developing them, it's about developing the bench chemistry, with the assumption all those guys already have a good skillset they bring to the table in that unit.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I dunno about that. Some players just like to have touches, don't move without the ball... You could've criticized Belli for a lot of things, but his off the ball play was very, very good... and you need guys like that.

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Unless they are elite players idc. Fathead is not good enough to be a sixth man type player especially if he can't score. Dude just needs to set up for open threes and make them at a respectable clip.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I think you need to get through your head that the Spurs are not into developing players during the season. We're not in rebuild mode, that's why they had both of these guys work on what they needed to work on during the summer, and the SL is somewhat an extension of that. Pop isn't going to play guys because "he needs to develop them". If a player needs development time, he'll go to the Austin Spurs. Kyle, Simms did that and now probably Murray will do that too.

The expectations with these "vet-rookies" if you will, is that they've already developed their game/niche enough where Pop can throw them into a game and they can produce. If they're not there, then they won't play.

I mean, there's going to be some time to gel, obviously, but it's not about developing them, it's about developing the bench chemistry, with the assumption all those guys already have a good skillset they bring to the table in that unit.

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You might be surprised is all I am saying. Guys are always developed through the season. That is how Cojo grew up in a crowded rotation and we saw it last season with several players too. Either they grow up or they don't and if they don't they will find themselves elsewhere, but the Spurs have developed youth with potential in these latter times that I have been following them because they needed to. If you think they won't then you are stuck in the past with all due respect. I already found Manu deferring to Mills' development as more of a traditional PG last season and commented about it through the season. It's a pity Mills is what he is, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

You might be surprised is all I am saying. Guys are always developed through the season. That is how Cojo grew up in a crowded rotation and we saw it last season with several players too. Either they grow up or they don't and if they don't they will find themselves elsewhere, but the Spurs have developed youth with potential in these latter times that I have been following them because they needed to. If you think they won't then you are stuck in the past with all due respect. I already found Manu deferring to Mills' development as more of a traditional PG last season and commented about it through the season. It's a pity Mills is what he is, but it wasn't for a lack of trying.

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I wanna be surprised. Cojo earned his spot beating DeColo for it. He found his niche being aggressive on the court. Sometimes these little competitions work out. I'm actually hoping Betrans comes in and kinda lights up that kind of competition with Simmons. I also want him to be really good, so that also eventually lights a fire under Danny Green. I don't think it was surprising at all that neither Kyle or Simms (or Boban) were ready for the playoffs last season. Pop won't play guys to "develop" them, not on a contender that has to worry about a lot of other things, like seeding, winning at home, trying to get some cohesion in different units, etc. Kawhi was the sole exception lately and has everything to do with the fact that he's very talented, and was a relatively high pick, which the Spurs really thought could shine (even then, they held on with RJ for a while just in case). But neither Kyle or Simms are going to get that treatment, they're not that good. They're going to have to earn it doing the little things and potentially beating competition within the team out there (OTOH, I don't see a clear competitor for Kyle's spot at the moment).

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I wanna be surprised. Cojo earned his spot beating DeColo for it. He found his niche being aggressive on the court. Sometimes these little competitions work out. I'm actually hoping Betrans comes in and kinda lights up that kind of competition with Simmons. I also want him to be really good, so that also eventually lights a fire under Danny Green. I don't think it was surprising at all that neither Kyle or Simms (or Boban) were ready for the playoffs last season. Pop won't play guys to "develop" them, not on a contender that has to worry about a lot of other things, like seeding, winning at home, trying to get some cohesion in different units, etc. Kawhi was the sole exception lately and has everything to do with the fact that he's very talented, and was a relatively high pick, which the Spurs really thought could shine (even then, they held on with RJ for a while just in case). But neither Kyle or Simms are going to get that treatment, they're not that good. They're going to have to earn it doing the little things and potentially beating competition within the team out there (OTOH, I don't see a clear competitor for Kyle's spot at the moment).

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I agree in the competition. It was Chinook that first brought it up and that is the way to weed out those who will make it from those who will not, at least in this team (bc energy guy JSimms could play in any other team a few minutes so long as he's that athletic and score in transition, look at the Corey Brewers of the world, it just lowers his ceiling that much more and maybe his fit if he's not able to fit in to what the Spurs need from him).

By all accounts Pop wanted to hold onto Boris. I think Pop wanted Kyle to beat Boris out, a tall task, but one that Tony, Kawhi and a few others performed. Tough job for Kyle to do bc Boris is a very nice player when he plays well, but yea he's getting right up there in age, and his laissez faire and lack of care started to make it easier for Pop to go to Kyle.. and we kept on winning with him averaging 20 minutes so he earned it. Even Manu at one point mentioned it, that these two weren't getting their minutes as a charity act. But in no way was Pop comfortable handing things or spots out. I thought he wanted a veteran PF and let Kyle supplant that guy out with his own development. It was just impossible for the Spurs to retain Boris and keep other pieces. Even Boban, who I think they really planned to keep, they were unable to. Had either of these two (KA/JS) been a FA, they would been gone too for sure the way of Cojo, Belinelli, and Baynes. When I say that they will get time to develop... I saw Pop calling post ups for Kyle in games. I am sure that is something he practices relentlessly and that they have seen him work on, but until you put him in that situation, he can't learn when to assert himself and when to pass like Boris. It's not like they will go to him a whole lot, but they will go to him at times, bc Boris is not there. If he's not cutting it, Pop will find some washed up vet somewhere like Kevin Martin, and Kyle will still have to beat that guy out. He will be a better player for having gone through that, instead of having been drafted by the Sixers and going out there losing games after games not learning anything, so I think we kind of agree, or at least I think I agree with your perception.

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Originally Posted by dabom

Unless they are elite players idc. Fathead is not good enough to be a sixth man type player especially if he can't score. Dude just needs to set up for open threes and make them at a respectable clip.

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Well said