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Originally Posted by cutewizard
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Originally Posted by cutewizard
Appreciate they put in the work over the summer, tbh... still not convinced either has a niche they can grow to be difference-maker at. I don't think the SL and that level of competition is really going to answer that.
Murray is just getting his feet wet, tbh, gonna have to wait another season or two, some games against the pros to see what we have there. Just from the get go, you can see he needs to bulk up a bit, he's way too skinny. Reminds me of Leonard or George Hill when they were rooks.
The thing with the bench is going to be cohesion, building together a unit again where everybody has their role, and understand what they're doing. There's also a talent issue, especially if neither of these two guys take a step forward.
The bench really mattered against the 2-3 top teams in the league last season. They were fine against the rest, but because the rest sucked.
But it's also true we're a way more top-heavy team now, tbh, so the concerns with the bench are relative, and have more to do with Pop and his "rest" than anything else.
Spurs have always excelled when their bench was one of the best in the league. We might be in for a very long season...
The 2014 Title run showed how good our bench was when our bench actually increased the lead on Miami's starters in Game 5.
Yeah, as I said on the other thread, I don't think this SL has shown us anything different from them, other than Kyle bulking up. Which is disappointing. But there's always the chance that once their roles change on the big team, there might be something there they've been working on we can't see here because they're being featured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
That's another thing that annoys the fuck out of me: Kawhi was sent to SL and told specifically to be aggressive and to initiate the offense, because that's what Pop wanted from him. There's no fucking way that the Spurs think that Kyle or Simmons are going to be all-stars. They're going to be camped out waiting for threes. Why fucking feature them? If Kyle did the shit he does a dozen times per SL game in a regular game, Pop would bench him for a week.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I can only guess but I think they're looking for aggressiveness, something they clearly lacked last season in general. But I don't see that either. Last night I got tired of hearing the ESPN2 guys say "I think Slomo might need to take over" during the second half, but I don't think that's who Kyle really is, and that can be problematic. If they're unwilling/unable at this level, it's just not going to happen against the Pros.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
My best guess would be that Pop wants to see if either Simmons or KA can lead the bench unit for stretches. Assuming that is correct I don't think either one has shown that so far
I agree. Letting them make mistakes that they can get away with because they're physically superior to summer league competition makes no sense. It was nice to see that Becky Hammon didn't seem to give a shit whether or not the Spurs actually won that game. I certainly don't watch with wins and losses in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
I understand trying to coach aggressiveness into Kawhi, because building confidence and letting him know that the Spurs believed in him were both massively important. Coaching aggressiveness in either Simmons or Anderson is just irresponsible and a waste of summer league altogether. Kyle is aware enough of game situations that he can be aggressive when it's necessary. Just because he's slow doesn't make him Austin Daye. And giving a green light to Simmons seems like letting a bull lose in a china shop. He's been terrible. Someone needs to reign him the fuck in so he can start contributing.
Tell them to play solid. Tell them to play smart. Tell them to make the best pass, don't turn the ball over, and always be in position. THAT is what you want from them on the big team.
You got that right. I'm not sure how coaching them into turnovers and bad shots is going to do anything but make them even more scared to make a mistake. But Pop is a psych major. Maybe that's what he wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by ernest787
I agree that Anderson is closer in style to Diaw but I dont see KA being nearly as effective as Diaw staying in the Diaw mold. Maybe because Diaw has more size or that he has a better shot but...yeah KA needs more aggressiveness and needs to bring more....he just needs to bring more.Quote:
Originally Posted by loveforthegame
I get the sense that as others have mentioned elsewhere, this is the season they need to have an impact.
I do think their best games in SL, where everyone scored and they got a lot of open 3s were games where they pushed the tempo. Kyle is terrific finding ppl in transition and transition scoring is in reality the best part of JSimms game. He can get nearly unstoppable in transition. The athletic big they got (Dedmon) complements this style very well too.
It seemed last game they deliberately slowed the pace down to practice their half court sets. The game stayed in the halfcourt with the exception of the times Murray took off on his own. I thought Spurs wanted to see Kyle and JSimms perform when the game slows down and it wasn't very pretty. JSimms struggled against set defenses and it wasn't a very efficient game from Kyle either. I think he was looking to pass on the sets they called for him, which made him seemed hesitant and got him in trouble as he got stripped a couple of times if I remember correctly bc he stood around to "survey" the situation. He has to be more decisive if he's going to heroball, it's a different mindset.
In reality, I don't think those sets are meant to be that stagnant, but the supporting cast in SL doesn't know secondary actions or to cut or move without the ball, so they just stood around. And since Becky didn't yell for ppl to move, maybe they did want to see what the two of them could do if they were forced to heroball a little and take it upon themselves to getting it done. The reason? Just last playoffs there was nobody in the bench that could get a bucket against the Thunder. Kyle was parked in a corner. It wasn't his time and it wasn't going to be on him to save those guys from that situation. We may think that it's not needed for Kyle or Jsimms to sometimes take it upon themselves to get a bucket and heroball, but there are times that maybe it is exactly needed. They placed Kyle at one point with a bench of entirely non rotation players and he had to get buckets for himself. It was weird and I didn't like it, but viewed in context, I see what they were doing.
It may seem scary to rely on these two more, but we had some very old vets in that bench last season, including 3 NBA champions that one felt more confident about, and yet it turned out they were too old, undersized and/or slow and Mills too streaky to be the first option, and they were unable to score in 6 consecutive games. They actually started scoring when they went perimeter with Kyle as a stretch 4. They had to go a different direction.
As for Manu, I don't know how he fits in this. He's not the swiftest guy at this point and he struggles against elite athletes and set defenses himself, but I would guess he's more vet support and a complementary player at this point. It may really be the Kyle/JSimms show with Mills/Bertans running out to the 3, swap Manu/Bertans as you please. I imagine Manu will still run the PnR with Dedmon in the half court sets and other stuff... but the bench shouldn't revolve around Manu so much. Ideally they would help these two be more assertive. Just some thoughts.
The biggest problem I see for Simmons is engagement on defense. It's not that he sucks, he just takes possessions off. And when you go into the overall of it, a 38/39 year old Manu is 20x the defender he is on just putting in the work.
Obviously, you can't put Manu against guys like Westbrook anymore, the athletic difference is just too great at this point to overcome with mere savvy. I just don't know if Simms doesn't care too much because it's the SL, but Pop won't let him get away with it, I don't think.
Bottom line for him. He needs to make it this season. If he's really not cutting it Spurs will go a different direction. But I am holding off judgement bc this is still work in progress. Kawhi didn't look that pretty either the season he started to get featured. He actually got in trouble and stuck on his post ups and those sets were ugly and stagnant as heck. He got better, but it took time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Good read and insight. With Bobo gone, it's pretty clear they plan to amp up Slow Mo's minutes and play him for long stretches at the 4. Given that, it also makes sense that they'd lean on Simmons to provide depth alongside, and not necessarily in place of, either Anderson or Manu as a 3.
Everyone else is just along for the ride this SL, though I do wonder if the Spurs will use this time to figure out if one of Arci, Forbes or Hanlan are worth keeping on the 15-man roster.
Yeah I agree with a lot of this thread. Simmons doesn't look like an NBA player to me. And KA still doesn't show me anything he can be elite or excel at in this league. Going to be a growing pain year for the bench.
If that's the plan then the Spurs are basically throwing everything they have at a problem and hoping something sticks. The worst thing about this is that the other bench guys that have potential to be rotational players can't even get contracts signed to play in the summer league. It doesn't have a super great impact but at least you see glimpses of what to expect early on for TC purposes.
Simmons doesn't have it in him to run an offense.. His physical gifts are that of a slasher/shooter.. He has poor handles when anyone checks him, he over dribbles, or dribbles too high and gets caught up making him pick up his dribble. Can he fix that? Probably but why would he really need to do that when his vision is pretty mediocre. He guy should be working on coming off screens and curling towards the basket or stepping back for a 3.. Moving without the ball will help him actually be productive in the offense and being able to hit open shots makes him an actual commodity on the bench.
Kyle having the ball in his hand is okay.. It feels sometimes like he's taking it serious and then others he's just doing whatever.. He has great vision sometimes but others he looks like he has no idea what he's doing and just being overaggressive for no reason. That kind of play doesn't work on the bench at all.. The bench needs to be free form and wheeling and dealing passes trying to get the best shot available because none of those bench guys are going to be impressive standing around waiting to go ISO. The thing is even with that being said the SL roster is not really a move the ball, pass happy team.. Forbes gets lost in the mix, hasn't hit his shot to command the extra pass, Cummings is a black hole, Lelanne can't shoot, Williams is all be lost on the team. I hate to sound like a broken record but if LJC and Bertans were actually on the roster it would be a little more telling of what we can expect from Kyle as a 2nd unit ball handler.
Murray is a curious case because he gets inserted into a lineup that has ball dominant players in Kyle and Simmons and how does he fit in all of it.. The thing that I get the most from him is that he has ALPHA all over him and that's why he pushes the issue and takes shots and forces the issue because he wants to exert himself into the mix and show that he has a place there. Is this a great idea for SL and will it help him? Not really.. I mean he was put in a bad situation by being in this mix and not being the dominant ball handler but he just wanted to play. I see a ton of great things from him and the potential to do great things but he's just not with a team that will utilize those strengths quite yet. I'm hoping he doesn't get discouraged when he gets sent to Austin and spends moments on the bench for extended periods of time. Obviously the Spurs are inclined to give more minutes and touches to Kyle and Simmons.
He really needs to fix that jump shot ASAP, consistency is super duper important. He waves off a lot of screens because he knows that eventually guards will just go under them and dare him to hit the jumper.. The good news is that he is fast enough off the first step to get by players or create room..
Exciting times to be a young piece in SA
I have no shot charts to substantiate my belief. But just watching the games in the latter part of the season I thought that Manu's role was already changing. The days when he was primarily a driver/slasher are pretty much over. I expect him primarily to be a spot-up 3-point shooter this season. That role is very consistent with what has been said about Kyle and Juice going forward. The team is hoping that Simmons becomes the slasher and Kyle the playmaker on the second unit.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFBlue
I had hoped they would keep Boban who was a menace near the basket and that Mavs game to end the season gave us a preview of how it would look like. All of Boban, Anderson and Simmons scored efficiently and Bobans presence in the paint actually prevented bench bigs from wanting to help off him which made it easier for Simms to get into the paint and Kyle ran some pretty side PnR throwing lobs to Boban or just scoring himself. With Boban gone, I think they just had to look a different direction. It is what it is, an opportunity for them, but it's growing pains.
Yup that's basically it. And it goes with everything Simms specially has said aboug them looking for each other and trying to make each other better. In reality they were better together than when they were separated.Quote:
Originally Posted by sasaint
Anderson's role will increase by default. At this writing, he's clearly in line to be the first forward off the bench and will probably take on more secondary play making responsibilities.
Simmons' role will probably be similar to what it was in the first half of last season, which is fringe rotation (competing with yet to be signed veteran power forward and Bertans) and 3 and D, even though he specializes in neither.
Anyone who thinks Ginobili, who's still the best play maker on the team, is going to be reduced to spot up shooter while these two nobodies play Summer League against NBA rotation players, is delusional.
Wish Hanga was playing I think he can take Simmons place he is just as athletic and a much better defender.
yeah there is no way Manu's role is being reduced. He will still run the second unit offense, and that is for good reason. Manu is still the best passer on the team and probably has the best court vision of anyone on the team. He knows the offense, and while he is not anywhere near as explosive as he used to be, he is savvy enough that he can still get to the basket. He just doesn't attack like he used to.
The problem with KA and Simmons is that both are solid in several areas, but neither is elite at anything. KA is a solid passer. He has solid court vision. He's proven to be a solid on ball defense, but he's not special at anything. The Diaw comparisons are frustrating b/c Diaw has elite court vision and passing and KA just doesn't have that in my opinion.
I want to be proven wrong and hope they both end up having fantastic seasons. I just don't see it. I think KA is destined to be an end of the rotation NBA player. While I'm not sure Simmons is a NBA player at all.
Finally... Murray is going to be good if he works hard. Watching SL you can easily tell he is the best player on the court. He wasn't always in control and he iso'ed a bit, but it's his 2nd game. He also needs to work on his shot. but he has the athleticism and the confidence you are looking for. I'm excited to watch him develop.
Manu is just going to play backup PG, like he's been for the last few years... that's why i wanted to see more of Kyle playing off the ball and see if he's any more effective at that now, but it won't happen in the SL, apparently.
Playing off the ball is the easiest form to learn in the nba. If fathead can't play it, what makes us think he can be ready to distribute at an NBA contender.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Dude stalls the offense in the second unit too much.