Insider Request: Is Tim Duncan the greatest defender in NBA history?

Pretty please.
http://espn.go.com/nba/insider/story...-antonio-spurs

:toast If advanced stats existed for all of Tim's career, he probably would have won two or three DPOY awards...

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Originally Posted by Tully365

:toast If advanced stats existed for all of Tim's career, he probably would have won two or three DPOY awards...

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Truth.

He might be the best. It's hard to argue he's the greatest (subtle as those difference are) just because Bill Russell changed the way defense was played in the league forever.

Bill and Timmy actually have a lot of similarities in attitude. If Shaq was the Wilt of his day, Timmy was the Russell. Of course, TD had a lot better offense game than Bill.

Sorry OP, don't have access to the insider article. But Duncan is definitely the greatest defender of all-time with the key being you have to take EVERYTHING into account. From a shut down perspective, as in, I want to shut this big down, then Hakeem may have been better. From a versatility standpoint, Garnett was more mobile and therefore defended perimeter/in space, better. From an anchoring standpoint, Robinson was equally as good, if not slightly better. From a "making their guy uncomfortable to where they are out of their comfort zone" then Rodman was the guy. Ben Wallace was the greatest disrupter and Pippen shrank half the court better than most. But Duncan could do ALL of that at an elite level and no-one could you point to and say, anchor elite defenses for TWENTY years damn near and say this regardless of who is on the team, the style of play the league is playing or anything. Duncan's the most COMPLETE defender of all-time.

The key for me is that Duncan's anchoring ability is second to none overall because we can look to two years in particular. This past year and 2004. These interestingly are the two years where Duncan, by design, drastically reduced his role OFFENSIVELY to integrate/feature different players (Parker and Manu in 2004 and Kawhi/LMA in 2015) which INCREASED his role defensively. As a result, our defenses in those years (mind you in 2004 this was AFTER Robinson left and AFTER Splitter left in 2015) were both non-coincidentally HISTORIC!!! Duncan had Rasho and turned in a historic defensive season...the same Rasho a defensive great Garnett had for years and couldn't produce THAT level of dominance. Whenever Duncan's role increased defensively, we reached historic heights. And we've been literally elite for nearly 2 decades...that's all the proof I need.

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Originally Posted by keeferob25

Sorry OP, don't have access to the insider article. But Duncan is definitely the greatest defender of all-time with the key being you have to take EVERYTHING into account. From a shut down perspective, as in, I want to shut this big down, then Hakeem may have been better. From a versatility standpoint, Garnett was more mobile and therefore defended perimeter/in space, better. From an anchoring standpoint, Robinson was equally as good, if not slightly better. From a "making their guy uncomfortable to where they are out of their comfort zone" then Rodman was the guy. Ben Wallace was the greatest disrupter and Pippen shrank half the court better than most. But Duncan could do ALL of that at an elite level and no-one could you point to and say, anchor elite defenses for TWENTY years damn near and say this regardless of who is on the team, the style of play the league is playing or anything. Duncan's the most COMPLETE defender of all-time.

The key for me is that Duncan's anchoring ability is second to none overall because we can look to two years in particular. This past year and 2004. These interestingly are the two years where Duncan, by design, drastically reduced his role OFFENSIVELY to integrate/feature different players (Parker and Manu in 2004 and Kawhi/LMA in 2015) which INCREASED his role defensively. As a result, our defenses in those years (mind you in 2004 this was AFTER Robinson left and AFTER Splitter left in 2015) were both non-coincidentally HISTORIC!!! Duncan had Rasho and turned in a historic defensive season...the same Rasho a defensive great Garnett had for years and couldn't produce THAT level of dominance. Whenever Duncan's role increased defensively, we reached historic heights. And we've been literally elite for nearly 2 decades...that's all the proof I need.

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Excellent take. I can add nothing; just endorse what you said, however you have neglected the old guys. The only competition Tim has is Bill Russell.

No DPOY awards either for all that work, smh... Wow.

Here it is:

Is Tim Duncan the greatest defender in NBA history?


Perhaps the most remarkable statistic of Tim Duncan's Hall of Fame career, which ended when he announced his retirement Monday morning, was this: Duncan never won Defensive Player of the Year.

In fact, despite making the All-Defensive First or Second Team 15 times -- far and away the most since the NBA introduced the All-Defensive teams in 1968-69 -- Duncan never even finished second in the voting for Defensive Player of the Year.

Nonetheless, as Duncan heads into retirement, it's worth pondering whether he's the best defender in NBA history.


Rebounder and shot-blocker

Duncan isn't the best shot-blocker in NBA history. (That would be Dikembe Mutombo, at least since the league started recording blocks in 1973-74, long after Bill Russell's retirement and the year after Wilt Chamberlain finished his career.) He isn't the best rebounder in NBA history. (That would probably be Dennis Rodman, but that's a debate for another day.)

However, what Duncan might be is the best combination of the two since the era of Chamberlain and Russell. In part because of how late the league started tracking blocks, Duncan is one of three players in the all-time top 10 in both blocked shots and rebounds, along with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Robert Parish. Those players got there more on longevity than sheer dominance.

Since 1973-74, according to Basketball-Reference.com, just two players rate ahead of Duncan in both defensive rebound percentage (26.5 percent of available defensive rebounds for Duncan) and block percentage (4.6 percent of opponents' 2-point attempts): Marcus Camby (27.9, 6.1) and DeAndre Jordan (27.2, 5.3), whose career is still ongoing.

There are others like Mutombo (26.2, 6.3) and Dwight Howard (29.1, 4.4) who rank narrowly behind Duncan in one category but are comfortably ahead of him in the other. They're in the discussion for best combo shot-blocker/rebounder in modern NBA history, too. But that discussion has to include Duncan in a prominent role.


Many good defensive seasons, no great ones

Turning to one-number defensive ratings provides the same conclusion as NBA awards voters: Duncan had many good defensive seasons (why he made the All-Defensive Team in 15 of his 19 seasons) but no truly great ones (why he never won Defensive Player of the Year).

Duncan's best season by defensive win shares on Basketball-Reference.com (7.2, in 2003-04) ranks 41st all-time. Hakeem Olajuwon had four better seasons, and five players in the blocked-shots era (Abdul-Jabbar, Patrick Ewing, Elvin Hayes, Howard and Ben Wallace) had two apiece.

However, when we change the criteria to seasons with at least five defensive win shares, Duncan's 11 are tied with Olajuwon and David Robinson for the most in the modern era. Only Bill Russell (12) has more such seasons.

Defensive win shares sum up box-score defensive stats (blocks, steals, defensive rebounds and fouls), adding a healthy dose of team performance. Those limited available metrics can't capture much of how a player can affect a game defensively. That's why I prefer ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) as a defensive metric. Though RPM only dates back to 2000-01 because it requires play-by-play data, it offers a similar conclusion about Duncan since then.

The best Duncan season by defensive RPM (2002-03, when he rated 5.7 points per 100 possessions better than the average defender) ranks 16th in the last decade and a half, behind four Wallace seasons and a pair by contemporary Kevin Garnett. But of the top 100 individual seasons by defensive RPM, Duncan has an incredible 12 -- far better than Garnett (eight) for the most in that span. (A 13th Duncan season ranks just outside the top 100.)

Duncan's defensive longevity is remarkable. As the press release announcing his retirement noted, Duncan led the league in defensive RPM during the 2015-16 regular season at age 39. (Andrew Bogut subsequently surpassed him during the playoffs.) Nobody else has been so good defensively for so long.


Elite team defense

Of course, we can't talk about Duncan's defense without talking about how the Spurs defended as a team during his career. San Antonio had the league's best defensive rating in seven of Duncan's 19 seasons, including his final one, and ranked in the top three seven more times.

Obviously, Duncan can't claim all the credit for how well the Spurs defended during his career. That's also a testament to San Antonio's defensive scheme under head coach Gregg Popovich and a series of quality teammates, including Robinson, wing stopper Bruce Bowen and two-time Defensive Player of the Year Kawhi Leonard.

Still, as plus-minus data bears out, the Spurs consistently defended best with Duncan on the court, and their consistency defensively sets Duncan apart from nearly every defender in NBA history. Even dominant shot blockers like Mutombo and Olajuwon were occasionally part of average or even worse defenses.


Only one other player can truly match Duncan's success at the team level: Bill Russell. Complete defensive data isn't available for Russell's career, but from what we can tell, his Celtics teams won their 13 championships primarily on the strength of their defense.

Basketball-Reference.com's estimated defensive rating has Boston with the league's best defense 12 times in Russell's 13 seasons. They were second the other season. Obviously, that's a lot easier to do in a league with eight teams, which the NBA was at the start of Russell's career. But it's also worth noting Basketball-Reference.com estimates the Celtics were sixth out of eight teams in defensive rating the year before Russell's arrival, and they slipped to eighth (by then out of 14) the year after he retired.

Relative to league average, the Celtics have the two best estimated defensive ratings in NBA history (the 2003-04 Spurs rank third) and take five of the top nine spots, as Neil Paine noted on Five Thirty Eight this postseason. And while writing for Basketball-Reference in 2010, Paine found that the five players who played for the best defensive teams were all either Russell or his teammates. (Duncan and his teammates were in spots six through eight at that point.)

Defensive win shares come to the same conclusion. Duncan's 106 defensive win shares easily outdistance anyone else in the blocked-shots era -- the next-closest player, Abdul-Jabbar, is closer to eighth place than he is to Duncan -- but are nowhere near Russell's total of nearly 134. Given all the evidence, Duncan can claim to be the greatest modern defender, but when it comes to all of NBA history, he and everyone else are looking up at Russell.

Yes. Yes he is.

If he's not the greatest, he's top 3 i would think.

He was always a great defender, even last year in the playoffs on 2 bad knees he was blocking westbrook and defending like a beast. And that was at 40 years old.

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Originally Posted by Tully365

:toast If advanced stats existed for all of Tim's career, he probably would have won two or three DPOY awards...

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Isn't it a media-voted award? If he'd played for the Lakers, he'd probably have won six or seven of them. For God's sake, they gave Kobe 12 all-defense awards.

With all due respect to Bill Russell, Duncan's defense might have been pretty elite with five hall of famers playing alongside him.

I can't believe he never won DPoY.

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Originally Posted by DAF86

I can't believe he never won DPoY.

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Given some of the guys who were given the award over him, I don't really think it matters.

:lol Bill Russell
:lol so cute

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Originally Posted by Tully365

:toast If advanced stats existed for all of Tim's career, he probably would have won two or three DPOY awards...

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This is what I don't understand. How in the world did Duncan not get at least ONE DPOY award in his 19 years????
Instead they gave it to Ben Wallace or meta world peace, or whatever his stupid name is.

Ehh I'm sure I'll get some hate from people here but I think Ben Wallace was a better defender than Duncan, at least in their primes. Overall as a career though Duncan probably gets the nod.

Ben Wallace/Duncan/Hakeem are the top 3 best modern defenders IMO. Russell is #1 if you look at what he did relative to the era but you can't tell me he'd be that dominant if he were playing in the 90s/2000s :lol

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Originally Posted by DAF86

I can't believe he never won DPoY.

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Pippen & Tim are the best defenders at their positions but they never won DPOY

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Originally Posted by Thomas82

Here it is:

Is Tim Duncan the greatest defender in NBA history?

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Thanks!!

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Originally Posted by inagra

Thanks!!

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Not a problem.

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Originally Posted by SpursFan86

Ehh I'm sure I'll get some hate from people here but I think Ben Wallace was a better defender than Duncan, at least in their primes. Overall as a career though Duncan probably gets the nod.

Ben Wallace/Duncan/Hakeem are the top 3 best modern defenders IMO. Russell is #1 if you look at what he did relative to the era but you can't tell me he'd be that dominant if he were playing in the 90s/2000s :lol

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Wallace might have been better at his peak. Doesn't make him any more one-dimensional than an offense-only player like Dirk. He and Artest won the award in large part because they had Rick Carlisle actively campaigning for the award.

What's truly ridiculous is players like BKL and Camby and Noah winning over Duncan. What Duncan did when he had Blair and Bonner as front court mates deserves having the trophy named after him, tbh.

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Originally Posted by -21-

Yes. Yes he is.

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This.

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Originally Posted by BillMc

Truth.

He might be the best. It's hard to argue he's the greatest (subtle as those difference are) just because Bill Russell changed the way defense was played in the league forever.

Bill and Timmy actually have a lot of similarities in attitude. If Shaq was the Wilt of his day, Timmy was the Russell. Of course, TD had a lot better offense game than Bill.

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I love the bullshit Russell fans come up with to prop him up. It's kinda like saying that he was the GOAT rebounder when Chamberlain pulled down 50 and set the record for rebounds against him.

Chamberlain was the most dominant defender and rebounder in the 1960s and its not even close. Russell had Cousey, Havlicek, Jones, Jones et al his entire career.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Wallace might have been better at his peak. Doesn't make him any more one-dimensional than an offense-only player like Dirk. He and Artest won the award in large part because they had Rick Carlisle actively campaigning for the award.

What's truly ridiculous is players like BKL and Camby and Noah winning over Duncan. What Duncan did when he had Blair and Bonner as front court mates deserves having the trophy named after him, tbh.

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Cosign!! TD's defense really does get sold short historically.

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Originally Posted by SpursFan86

Ehh I'm sure I'll get some hate from people here but I think Ben Wallace was a better defender than Duncan, at least in their primes. Overall as a career though Duncan probably gets the nod.

Ben Wallace/Duncan/Hakeem are the top 3 best modern defenders IMO. Russell is #1 if you look at what he did relative to the era but you can't tell me he'd be that dominant if he were playing in the 90s/2000s :lol

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Wallace didn't play quite the same minutes nor have nearly the same offensive responsibility.

Overall, Duncan was the best team defender ever. Some might have had a better peak, but none had the longevity.

The greatest award related travesty in sports, is Duncan not winning a bunch of DPOY's and it was all because of a lack of measurement/understanding of nuance of defense through most of his career and the fact that he didn't look the part.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

Wallace didn't play quite the same minutes nor have nearly the same offensive responsibility.

Overall, Duncan was the best team defender ever. Some might have had a better peak, but none had the longevity.

The greatest award related travesty in sports, is Duncan not winning a bunch of DPOY's and it was all because of a lack of measurement/understanding of nuance of defense through most of his career and the fact that he didn't look the part.

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Well during Ben Wallace's prime, he was playing 36+ minutes a night. And while obviously he sucked on offense, that's a bit irrelevant if we're just looking at the impact someone has defensively. I mean yeah, it's more impressive to be a great defender while having to shoulder an offensive burden as well, but it doesn't make you better at defense...hopefully you get what I'm saying.

Regardless, I agree that once you factor in longevity, there's not really anyone to rival Tim. I guess Hakeem would be the closest, but I still feel comfortable putting Tim over him. And as I said before, I can't buy in to the idea that Russell would be nearly as dominant if he were playing in Duncan's era.

To answer the OP... Yes. Timothy Theodore Duncan is the GOAT defender.

David Robinson is up there too. Led the league in blocks and rebounds multiple times, was agile on the perimeter enough to average close to 1.5 spg... that's just unheard of in today's game. Now imagine if they had been allowed to use zone defense back in the 90's... his weak side block numbers would have been higher.

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Originally Posted by SpursFan86

Well during Ben Wallace's prime, he was playing 36+ minutes a night. And while obviously he sucked on offense, that's a bit irrelevant if we're just looking at the impact someone has defensively. I mean yeah, it's more impressive to be a great defender while having to shoulder an offensive burden as well, but it doesn't make you better at defense...hopefully you get what I'm saying.

Regardless, I agree that once you factor in longevity, there's not really anyone to rival Tim. I guess Hakeem would be the closest, but I still feel comfortable putting Tim over him. And as I said before, I can't buy in to the idea that Russell would be nearly as dominant if he were playing in Duncan's era.

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It doesn't necessarily make you better at defense, but it sure as hell gives you more energy to play it to your capcity.