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Also, these guys are fringe NBA players and rookies for the most part. On a major contender. There are going to be ups and downs. Spurs fans have to prepare themselves for this.
I find it highly unlikely that SA immediately has a top 5 bench like we are accustomed to seeing. They will have great flashes. Then really bad games. You know, like any other rookies. Except these rookies are expected to play for an immediate contender.
Thankfully Spurs don't have to rely on all of those guys when it really matters. Only two of them (at best) will play when it really counts ( competitive games/ playoffs).Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
The rest will be filling in empty minutes throughout the season vs. poor competition -- being tested during B2Bs, end of blowouts, rest opportunities.
At the end of the day, the Spurs still have a damn solid core group of proven NBA All-Stars/ players in the top 8-10 in the rotation. They'll only get as far as those core guys take them -- the four rookies + Simmons will have little impact on their ceiling as a team. Having those four rookies fill in four of the last five spots is nice for a change. Especially if they can be competitive during their empty minute opportunities this year -- its a win-win for now and the near future. In all honesty they may be even better right now than last years' Andre Miller, Martin, Bonner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
For a long time, the Spurs' continuity has been a big advantage in the first half of each season. I was feeling pretty good that the only difference in the starting 5 was Gasol, and he's a smart player who's been around. And the bench, at least, has a bunch of guys who can score points. Losing Danny really changes the math on the first part of the season.
I was actually thinking about starting an over/under on how long it will be before either Forbes or Murray has a 20 point game. I have no doubt that Bertans is going to put up some numbers. Lee will probably have less opportunities to score 20, but he can definitely put up points. Manu is aging, but he's still Manu. Mills can go off (and he's in a contract year :) ). So I've at least got some hope that the bench can hold down the fort when they are playing against mostly bench players.
Mostly agree. The starting lineup is stacked (well, when Danny is back). But I am not trusting TP/Manu to stay healthy all the time and winning regular season games will be key.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
But TP/Danny/Kawhi/LMA/Pau/Manu/Mills/Lee are the only proven NBA players at a good level. That's 8 guys only and many of them are older (Pau/TP/Manu).
Kyle is a big question mark. Simmons has not looked great. Then you have Dedmon, Murray, Lap, Bertans, Forbes like I said.
Only having 8 legit for sure NBA players is tough and not the normal amount of depth we are used to seeing. Again, I'm not mad at that, its just reality.
DPG, you just touched on a big point on how we still lack athleticism. PATFO made it a point after the Thunder series the team needed to get more athletic but the offseason didn't really address it that much aside from Murray, who won't be a big contributor this season. I mean, Dedmon is a decent athlete as well as Bertans but I expected more on that front, especially since Simmons looks very mediocre and Anderson being arguably the least athletic player in the NBA logging good minutes.
9 and 10 with Dedmon/ Anderson. Both have proven to be able to contribute on the NBA level even if they're not overly qualified, they're qualified as NBA players. And Bertans looks more promising than both.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Parker and Manu will be held on a leash all year to prevent injury -- Parker getting 26-29 mpg and Manu getting his efficient 18-20 minute role. Doing so has helped Manu's longevity and durability for the past 3-4 years, same for Parker. Pop will manage them as efficiently as he has in recent years ( makes sure they're in uniform vs. tougher games & resting them vs. the bad opponent in back 2 backs, a game in 3 game in 5 night/4 games in 6 night scenarios). Having two of the young guys fill in spot minutes in those less competitive scenarios isn't scary IMO. Those are more exciting opportunities to see how much the work they've put in up to that point and if the work is paying off or if there's any progression.
In the playoffs, Pop has always implemented a 9-10 man rotation when it matters and only opens up the rotation when the score board allows it to happen. Or in times of desperation he's tighten the rotation to 7-8 players even.
Not mentioning, Pop can selectively push the minute limits if needed with the best players on the roster, Aldridge, Leonard and Green. All can see heavy minutes if scenario or game calls for it. Those scenarios inevitably decrease the role for the 4th big and 4th wing.
I"m just glad they are replacing the outliers of the roster with youth instead of managing a hospice facility that Martin, Miller and Bonner occupied last year.
Glad we are going with youth now for once too. I trust the Spurs scouting ability, especially with what they developed guys like Joseph into.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
They did the right thing. They just couldn't afford to hand away a roster spot to someone undeserving in order to be cheap or stubborn, not when 3 of the top 6 are ancient, there's a lack of proven depth past the top 8-9 and they have legitimate aspirations of playing into late May.
Sure, the roster is imbalanced, but it was going to be anyway. Jean-Charles isn't a true big (he's a power forward in a combo forwards body) and clearly would have been a last resort. It's unlikely they finish the season this way, but this was about rewarding those who earned it and essentially extending their audition, along with Simmons'.
I'm glad they moved on quickly from Livio..dude was simply way behind the curve to even merit a "loyalty" pass to the roster..This isn't the 2012-2015 iteration of Spurs-- a super deep team where you could just take a spot or two and enjoy the ride..If Dedmon busts and Simmons train-wrecks as many expects here they should be aggressive with them in the market..
I agree - happy with what they did at the end of the bench - but people expecting things to go smoothly immediately are going to be very cliff-jumpy to start this year IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
You just have more confidence in TP/Manu staying fully healthy, Danny is already out 3 weeks (so maybe 12 games) and counting on Kyle/Dedmon to be legit consistent contributors.
I'm not willing to count on that so matter-of-factly but obviously the potential is there.
Yeah, its impossible to predict how smooth a season will go. But if all goes relatively okay regarding injuries they shld be a 2nd tier team/2nd-4th seed in the West even with the new guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Theres more evidence to be confident Manu & Tony can stay healthy, with how theyve been able to stay healthy in recent years. In recent years the team has hired analysts who keep data on fatigue thresholds for each player which helps Pop manage the team to keep the players as healthy as possibly. He doesnt run Manu & Tony into the ground and hasnt in 5-6 yrs. If you want to be pessimistic then thats fine, but their age is the only thing you have to lean on. There was no reasonable way they could of provided more insurance than they did with them on the roster.
As far as Anderson and Dedmon, their roles will be small. The legit contributors, or the main core of guys who really control the ceiling, are usually the top 6-7 in the rotation.
I think we just aren't understanding each other :lol
I'm not pessimistic at all. In fact I said I was excited. I'm simply making observation as to the reality of the situation. You can infer what you want from that, but what I stated is the reality.
I know they could not have done more; never said they should have. I don't just have their age; I have previous injuries and the fact they are older and played with their national teams. It's not just age. TP hasn't been fully healthy for 5-6 years either. In recent years, whether he's had to miss games or not, injuries have really hurt his level of play. Same with Manu at times.
Spurs have never, never relied on 6-7 guys in the regular season and certainly can't do that now with 3 of the top 8 players being older.
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
All good.
Manu & Tony have just aged and lost quickness and effectiveness. Theyve remained healthy for most part outside of Manus nut incident, Parkers hamstring in 13' Finals.
I never said they only rely on 6-7 players during regular season. I said the main core (legit contributors ) are usually top 6-7 on roster. Guys 8-10 have smaller roles but are still in rotation. The rest are outliers who fill in the gaps during long regular season.
On most teams for sure, but the Spurs have always relied on depth, more than most, to get through the regular season with a lot of wins and with guys fresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres
That really cant change due to the main top guys being older (even LMA isn't young) so you can't just switch up the strategy too much imo. The new guys will have to play (which again, is fine and there is a lot potential).
The 6-7 guys determine the ceiling like you said, but to get there and be a good seed they will rely on more guys I believe.
But I'm excited :lol! I love what they did and all the gambles were the right moves IMO. I was early on one of the people really behind getting Gasol because it meant our Starter Lineup was so stacked still and improved over last year's team. Then they gambled on youth and some of them look good.
Im just doing a preemptive strike for Spurs fans expecting SA to have a top 5 bench. It's going to take time. Ups and downs.
Did Dirk retire?:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by SpurPadre
I never said they dont rely on them. The degree on how much they rely on guys 8-15 is what I was referring to. They have smaller roles -- with guys 11-15 being outliers who fill in empty minutes throughout season ( which helps the team , yes but they are what they are still ( outliers). Plus, just bc they are young unproven doesnt mean their incapable to fill the minutes McCallum, Miller, Martin, Butler, Bonner did last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
I give up :lol.
I know they are capable or at least can be. Just saying it's not guaranteed. You, by clinging to the "6-8" is what I don't get. Everyone knows the teams best 7 players are the core. However, Spurs are not like most teams that play shallow depth even in the regular season.
If you think guys 8+ are only going to get "empty minutes" then I have no idea where you get that from consisdering even with younger TP/Manu that was never the case in the regular season. I'm saying that TP/Manu minutes will likely go down at least some. The others always get good minutes because Pop doesn't run guys into the ground.
So either your are trolling me now to rile me up or like I said we just aren't vibing yet (it's pre-season though :lol)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
LOL. If they can keep the 50 win streak alive, it's a good season. Anything more than that is a bonus. I'm just pleased that the bench they settled on at least has some guys who can score. Maybe enough of them that on most nights a couple will step up and at least keep things competitive. The Summer League was depressing. I feel like they got the most out of the players they had to pick from.
By empty minutes, I mean less competitive situations. Yes, I know every game matters but in a long season Pop manages minutes really really well. He optimizes and allocates more minutes in blowouts to guys 8-12,13, he allocates and optimizes minutes of a 2nd of back to backs in a place like Philly to guys 8-12,13. He allocates more minutes to a Kyle Anderson if theres an injury to Danny or if he wants to sit Manu and domino effect occurs -- which opens up minutes for a guy behind Anderson like Simmons to get burn. The empty minutes are scenario dependent and usually happen when competition isnt at the highest or high level. Pop is very efficient and sharpe with the minute management game.Quote:
Originally Posted by DPG21920
Thats what I mean by empty minutes in a long season.
Agreed. Spurs are in the most difficult position in sports - rebuilding while being a contender. It's hard and will lead to some question marks. That doesn't by default mean it's bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by GSH
I love the upside, but like I said, SA is used to winning 50+ (which I think will easily happen) but also used to huge margins of victory and a great bench. I think that is possible, but there will be ups and downs relying on so much youth. Again, not a bad thing, it was the right move, just have to reset expectations.
well, NBA caliber ball-handling is only Manu/Tony, tbh... people been saying the team has been needing a PG that can be more of a playmaker, and I think that's where Nico fits. I have to think Manu and, to an extent, Patty will be playing more SG minutes (along with Simms), especially if Danny continues to be hit and miss or hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
As far as LJC, I thought he had "not NBA caliber" written all over him since the summer league, so this news isn't surprising. The "good" news is that I don't think any other team is going to claim him from the Toros in case the Spurs want to take another look.
Oh, and it was pretty clear Murray is going to go through the "get over yourself" treatment... especially after Pop pulled him for calling his number one too many times. He's probably going the Anderson route, getting a bigger role next season or even the third year. I liked what I saw from the kid, but his real shot will come around when he's 22... maybe 21 if he shows good flashes.
Agreed on Murray. Has a lot of potential, but not for right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElNono
Well I remember one thing GSH said: good Spurs teams of the past had a number of guys who were a threat to go off scoring 20 points on any given night. I think this team will at least be able to score the basketball. They have shooters who can go off, on top of a lot of talent in their SL.
I think the major questions are in all the youth and inexperience, guys having to develop chemistry to work well together, and cover for each other defensively, rotations and such, and perhaps the weakest point:
the bench bigs are thin. Lee is undersized for a bench center and Bertans is great as a stretch 4 and more versatile than we thought, but him with Lee is underwhelming. I still hope Dedmon comes through and I am not sure if that is foolish or not but he will be needed, matchup dependent etc. I think bench bigs are the biggest question mark.