Since 2011-2012, when Danny Green hits at least 3 three's....

Ifs spurs had 5 year younger Manu we'd be thinking of 2peating.

Are people just gonna ignore porker had another ball handler? :lmao

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Originally Posted by sasaint

I don't have any stats to back me up, but I would be willing to bet that he has more assists at this juncture than he ever has 17 games into a season.

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You lose the bet. Green has fewer assists at this juncture than Danny ever has 17 games into a season. :sucker

Most assists by Danny Green in first 17 games into a Spurs season.
39 2015-16 (but he played in 17 of those games), 2.29 a/g
29 2014-15 17 games 1.71 a/g
24 2011-12 17 games 1.41 a/g
24 2012-13 17 games 1.41 a/g
24 2013-14 17 games 1.41 a/g
23 2016-17 9 games 2.56 a/g

However, you win the argument. :bobo

The most assists by Danny Green as a Spur in Danny's first 9 games of a season:

23 2016-17
20 2015-16

Thanks, as always, Drom. Green is killing it in assists per36 compared to his average. But this is Danny 2.0 time, and we'll see if it tapers off like it tends to do every year.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

The two big things affecting that are 1) a lack of high-IQ screens to create open looks and 2) a lack of predictability on where the other guys should be to get good looks.

Splitter being done/gone hurts quite a bit, as he loved setting random back-picks. Duncan did too. You aren't going to get great off-ball movement just from sliding around the perimeter or ineffective cuts.

The second reason is much bigger. Kawhiso and post-up plays for LMA aren't really good ways to get open looks. Kawhi pretty much passes either when he has to or when he sees an opening. That's fine for him, but for the guy playing off the ball, that means he can't move very much. He's running the risk of either faking Kawhi out by not being where he just was before or clunking up the play by cutting through and bringing in a secondary defender. For post-ups the passes come off doubles, which can come at different times and from different places. The spacers can't be moving around, because then LMA doesn't have release valves

Contrast that to a Parker PnR and you have plenty of windows to get passes. You know where to slide depending on where Tony was in his drive. It's easy to stay in rhythm. It's like "You'll get the ball right now, or you'll slide to the corner for the next window to open in two seconds." Then of course, the Zipper Series had a ton of ways to get open since it wasn't based on Tony's passing but his speed. The Spurs offense right now is just too basic to get that kind of movement.

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To some extent iso-ball is just stultifying. That is exacerbated by LMA. When he gets the ball in an iso, he is going to shoot the ball a huge percentage of the time - whether the shot is good or forced. He is not likely to pass out of an iso, and if he does, those passes will rarely result in an assist. He ranks like 12th on the team in assists per 36 mins. In fact his passing game is so terrible that when he does pass the ball it is not unlikely that it will result in a turnover. But his BBIQ is so low and his ego so big that iso ball seems to be about the only offense for which he is suited - either by skill set or by mentality.

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Originally Posted by T Park

Danny Green is so underrated and so un appreciated with the fan base. It's a crime.

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^^^ This

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Originally Posted by sasaint

To some extent iso-ball is just stultifying. That is exacerbated by LMA. When he gets the ball in an iso, he is going to shoot the ball a huge percentage of the time - whether the shot is good or forced. He is not likely to pass out of an iso, and if he does, those passes will rarely result in an assist. He ranks like 12th on the team in assists per 36 mins. In fact his passing game is so terrible that when he does pass the ball it is not unlikely that it will result in a turnover. But his BBIQ is so low and his ego so big that iso ball seems to be about the only offense for which he is suited - either by skill set or by mentality.

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And yet, he's a decent volume scorer. I think he'll be fine in the long run. Games like the Boston match give me hope that he'll fit in with the offense once it gets humming.

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Originally Posted by Drom John

You lose the bet. Green has fewer assists at this juncture than Danny ever has 17 games into a season. :sucker

Most assists by Danny Green in first 17 games into a Spurs season.
39 2015-16 (but he played in 17 of those games), 2.29 a/g
29 2014-15 17 games 1.71 a/g
24 2011-12 17 games 1.41 a/g
24 2012-13 17 games 1.41 a/g
24 2013-14 17 games 1.41 a/g
23 2016-17 9 games 2.56 a/g

However, you win the argument. :bobo

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:lol Yeah, I forgot to deduct the games in which Danny didn't play. Thanks for proving the point I was trying to make! :toast

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Originally Posted by Chinook

That people can't admit that Parker was a HoF offensive player is beyond me.

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WHO? Parker is a HoF player because his offense and speed. Who does not agree with this?

As point guard, he never was the playmaker that Nash was, or even Manu was, so his best attributes were his offensive moves. And I don't read anyone on this forum saying otherwise.

The issue is you can't admit that Kawhi is other GREAT offensive player.

You saying that him doesn't draw many attention like prime Parker when we already see how the defense reacts when he attacks the rim and how teams are planning against him, doesn't help to your case as Kawhi's biggest detractor here.

If you says that Kawhi isn't a great playmaker like LeBron, that's true. If you says that Kawhi doesn't draw defensive attention like other primary scorers, you're wrong.

Kawhi's #1 on PPP in P&Rs, #1 in FG% on drives... He has on him the best opposite defender and has 4 guys on him when he drives to the hoop.

The gravity he has pulling defenders away opens up the offense for Parker now, that's why Kawhi is the main reason for Paker still looking decent.

But I guess there are people stupid enough to continue ignoring this.

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Originally Posted by GSH

When 3-4 players converge on Kawhi in the paint

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Four players on Kawhi? How you dare to say that? "Kawhi doesn't have that gravity on offense"

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Originally Posted by 100%duncan

So where did the Kawhi doesnt draw as much as Parker come from?

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In a very "unknown dimension" =>Chinnok's mind.

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You seem to be making harsh judgement or bold takes but always backtrack after

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No shit. Is he doing it?




Again?

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Kawhi will pass when he sees a man open

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Which is so bad, right?

4.8 ASP in the last 5 games, career high for him.

"But but those are so ineffective plays :cry!

This guy...SMH

Once Danny starts doing the transition pull-up 3's again you will know he's in full-blown DG3 mode.

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Originally Posted by YGWHI

Which is so bad, right?

4.8 ASP in the last 5 games, career high for him.

"But but those are so ineffective plays :cry!

This guy...SMH

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Keep in mind chinook used to say that green>kawhi overall in 2014.

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Originally Posted by MaNu4Tres

Its as simple as this.

Parker & Manu had the foot speed, quickness in change of direction and acceleration that enabled them to create significant separation from their man in ISOs or in PnRs. They'd be able to draw in the weakside D a lot quicker, which opened up wider passing lanes and off ball opportunities for their teammates

Kawhi doesn't have the same foot speed, quickness, or acceleration. The times he does turn the corner on PnRs his guy is usually on his hip as Kawhi physically fights his way around the corner. He doesn't have the vision either as sometimes the strong on ball D makes him reverse his dribble right into congested areas of the court where one weakside defender can essentially defend two guys ( Kawhi and his man) at the same time.

Kawhi doesn't have the same quickness, foot speed, acceleration or vision to be as effective in breaking down a defense like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

Sure Kawhi can still be effective in PnR situations with his scoring because of his elite length/strength using his body to get off mid-range pull ups and using his body to get off shots in the paint, but he will likely never be able to break down defenses like Parker and Manu did in their prime.

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:tu

This is the primary reason for the decline in the aesthetics of the offense in the past 2+ seasons.


As far as Green, I'm not the least bit surprised. His effectiveness is essentially the product of good offense, so he's the greatest measure of how well the offense is flowing and functioning.

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Originally Posted by Spurs_619

Keep in mind chinook used to say that green>kawhi overall in 2014.

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Well, I didn't know it.

If he hates Kawhi because he thinks that Kawhi overshadowed Danny as defender/player in previous years and Danny deserved more media/fans attention...I'd understand it.

But I still think it's a very stupid way to show his frustration for not being Danny recognized.

At least Chinnok gets one thing right...Danny's AMAZING and deserves a LOT more credit.

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Originally Posted by spursistan

Easily the 2nd most impactful player on the team after Kawhi..

That's what I hate the most about LMA in contrast: taking too much volume shooting and overall usage for a paltry sway on the team final results..the advanced metrics back that up..

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I would have to agree on both counts.

Verde is looking good. Definitely more comfortable and confident than he was last year.

Kawhi draws defenders because until very recently he hasn't shown much of a passing game, Chinook point is fair. Kawhi is amazing and easily a top 5 player right now, but he's a forward and he plays like one. He's just not a natural playmaker. I applaud him wholeheartedly for incorporating more drives and getting himself to the line, last year it was probably the only thing I posted about more than once and not only is he doing it, he'd doing it amazingly well. But despite the way he draws defenders most nights, Parker /Manu were guards with much much better ball skills and and could run the whole offense naturally while kawhi has to go one on 4 and power through. At this point saying anything about kawhi is nitpicking, he may as well been sent from another planet. If he continues to improve the way he has for even one more season.. It's incredible. No one could have ever dreamed for him to be this good, but he still has plenty of room to grow as a playmaker/ballhandler

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Originally Posted by diego

Kawhi draws defenders...But despite the way he draws defenders most nights...Chinook point is fair

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If you think Kawhi does that, then his point isn't 'fair' because he said otherwise.

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but he's a forward and he plays like one

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People expecting Kawhi to play point forward like LeBron or a guard like Manu as playmaker, is just stupid.

For most people LeBron is the best player in the NBA history behind Jordan, and Manu was a guard with a whole different skill set.

But Kawhi being different than Parker/Manu, and unique in his own way, doesn't mean that Kawhi isn't a great offensive player. He is. Tim played a game very different from Shaq's but it didn't mean anything.

And more on topic green is the spurs x factor for about 4 years now, he can be very inconsistent but when his shot is on the offense goes from adequate to great

I still think peak manu/Parker were better offensive players than kawhi right now, if he continues improving he has all the tools and opportunity to be better. It's not necessarily that he has to average 6 assists or whatever, it's more about how he controls the other teams D and finds his shots. If he's drawing four defenders and taking the shot himself, it's probably not a good longterm startegy

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Originally Posted by diego

I still think peak manu/Parker were better offensive players than kawhi right now, if he continues improving he has all the tools and opportunity to be better. It's not necessarily that he has to average 6 assists or whatever, it's more about how he controls the other teams D and finds his shots. If he's drawing four defenders and taking the shot himself, it's probably not a good longterm startegy

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The idea that gravity=assists is completely wrong-headed, and I'm not surprised that the most intellectually dishonest player fan on this site went with it. Gravity has nothing to do with drawing defenders when you drive or when you pass. That's completely separate. Gravity instead has to do with how the defense guards you when you DON'T have the ball. High-gravity players tend to be dynamic shooters rather than scorers. Like Korver, Curry or Danny a couple of years ago. When those guys have the ball, their relative gravity diminishes to zero.

It's sort of like a dual-star system. The ball is a star and will always have gravity. But the players can have their own gravity off the ball, and when that happens, it changes the orbit of the defense. When the high-gravity guy has the ball, there's only one source, so the defense can play as normal. When Korver had the ball, the pressure he put on the defense pretty much fell apart. Everyone was looking at the ball anyway; they didn't have to be mindful of where Korver was at the moment.

Parker's gravity was very odd, because it wasn't based in shooting. Rather, it was based on his speed. Teams did not want to switch against him, so him running through three screens put a ton of pressure on the defense to not let him get over with a mismatch. That movement allowed Green, Manu or Leonard (the ON-BALL player) to initiate a play, because the entire defense was warped trying to keep up with Parker. Kawhi, not matter how good he is, will never have that effect. That's not a knock on him, even if his fans want to be silly about it. Parker is a HoF-caliber offensive player. It's a god-damned shame that he's so underappreciated for who he used to be.

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Originally Posted by diego

I still think peak manu/Parker were better offensive players than kawhi right now, if he continues improving he has all the tools and opportunity to be better

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Kawhi's 25 years old, Manu was 25 in 2002. Call me crazy but I'll take this Kawhi over 2002 Manu.

We have still 3 seasons more to know if Kawhi 28 years old will look how Manu did in 2005, to me the best MG's playoffs, unbelievable performance, co-MVP. That's why I agree with you on that part, he can be better.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

I'm not surprised that the most intellectually dishonest player fan on this site went with it.

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You seem mad. I wonder why?

It's funny because you already read it...How we call a guy who reads and talks about other but doesn't mention him and reply to him quoting other people? Smart? Or just a coward?

Really, I'm not sure why you're mad...After all, they deleted my list of your wrong takes on ST.

It's a safe way to make mistakes when others hide your shit.