Who would you rather be our Starting Center? Pau or Dedmon

Before you pick, read this article http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/ka...ing-the-spurs/and consider the following:

Last year our defense was great. This year it's okay but still wanting. With Duncan gone, we've got many holes that Gasol has grown/created in our defense that will be a very big problem in the playoffs as all the problems I'm about to list WILL be magnified. The above article shows an alarming trend; the opposing team shoves Kawhi into a corner and go 4v4 vs Tony, Danny, LMA, and Gasol. If the opposing team has any good wings we get torched.

Just try thinking about the scenarios with the above article in mind. Even with Danny and LaMarcus as above average defenders, those four are too limited by Gasol's inability to protect the rim. Either someone has to over-help to prevent a layup which leaves someone wide open for a three, or they leave Gasol alone to fend for himself and he gets scored on. This is why LMA's defensive numbers are down. In pick and roll he either stays with the wing too long to stop a drive (where Tim would have been rotating to help) and gives up a wide open shot to his man; or LMA sticks with his man and lets Danny or Tony try to recover while Gasol rotates with Kawhi sinking to stop Gasol's man. If Gasol stops the layup and and forces a pass Kawhi has to try to close out on his man.

With Duncan, the only thing we consistently gave up was the lob to the big when Duncan rotated to stop the driving wing. Even then, Duncan's positioning was so perfect he'd cause hesitation to lob or go at him, which would allow Danny or Tony get back into the picture. We didn't always have to help off our men to stop the offence from scoring on Duncan. He do it himself, without fouling. Now that we are ALWAYS rotating to save Gasol's ass (Pop would rather give up a possibly wide open jumper than a contested layup by Gasol) the opposing offence knows the rotation is coming and thus knows what the are going to do in every situation.

Switching doesn't work either. Gasol and Tony get torched regularly when this happens. Even LMA isn't all that effective when switching anymore, because Duncan isn't there to funnel to when needed.

In order to have a good defense you need wing defense that can dictate what the offence will do; either force a drive into help, or back off and give up a jumper so that you can have a consistent defensive game plan. Gasol can do neither of those things in pick-and-roll. Even Duncan could force most wings into a jumper or drive into help, but offences can do what ever they want to on pick and roll that Gasol defends. Even Gasol's rim protection stats are misleading. He all to often miss rotations that lead to scores. I believe he is in that gray area where challenges shots he can alter but skips out on others he can't rotate to. It's selective rim protection like a shooter who only shoots when they are wide open.

Replacing Gasol with Dedmon will give us a rim protecting presence much more like Duncan; a big who can make the rotation to protect the rim, switch on pick and roll, and get back to his man off hedges and for box outs. He will foul more than Duncan for sure and probably more than Gasol as well, but I think his fouling could be limited by Kawhi and Danny's wing defense slowing down the opposing offence enough for Dedmon to get into proper position.

Of course, none of what I just went over talks about the impact of Pau or Demdon on OUR offence so I just want to make a few notes on this.
-Pau gives our offence another great shooter and good post player. The question then becomes is it acceptable to give LMA, Kawhi and Tony more touches with Dedmon starting.
-Pau maybe giving Parker enough space to do his thing. Starting Dedmon may not allow Tony to be effective.
-We would lose high-low passing w/o Pau.
-Dedmon can rim run giving us more transition options.
-Will LaMarcus step up with more iso/post-up and pick-and-roll opportunities?
-Can Kawhi carry more of a load on offence?
-how would the change affect Danny's shots?

Would there be anymore offensive changes to look out for with Dedmon Starting?

tl;dr: Would you rather have a more stable defense or stable offence? How will our team perform in the Playoffs with either Pau or Dedmon starting?

I prefer Deadmon because i see him fit better with Aldridge, but also because i think pairing Pau with David Lee makes also more sense off the bench.

The offense wouldn't really suffer with Dedmon starting, imo. Tony needs to set teammates up first and foremost, then he can hit the occasional open jumper or get to the rim when he can. Kawhi and LMA getting their touches is much more important. Take Gasol out of the SL and that happens, I think.

Matt Moore must have read ST tbh

Putting Dedmon could be an answer to that.

Now another interesting stuff should also to have a look at Danny, he is our other stopper and defense is slightly worst when he is on the floor.

Spurs have to find way to counter that tactics tbh during RS to be able to adapt during POs. Taking Leonard out of the equation is working only for some rosters, we don't have this risk against rosters like Cleveland, GSW, OKC etc but that is a concern yes in the case of Clipps for instance. If a team employs this you surely can counter it by plugging Dedmon and Patty in the starting line up, you play Pau and Parker off the bench.

This is what RS is for, find solution to this kind of issues

Good article from cbs thanks for sharing Janitor...

Pop may just have to adjust his defensive schemes too, place Kawhi on different guys etc. Throw curveballs to the opponent's offense.

I suspect Pop is going to tough it out with Pau. I would rather Pop mix things up and see what he finds.

But this is the huge concern:

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It really is the other guys: The Spurs are 26th in the league in points per possession created by the pick-and-roll ball-handler. Tony Parker is in the 6th (!!!) percentile, Gasol the 30th percentile, Aldridge the 37th percentile. This does not bode well for their future. Those are not players who are going to suddenly grow and develop.

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Not a huge concern, guys like CP3, Steph, and KD will not take themselves out of the game because Kawhi is guarding them. The main concern is the defense of guys like Pau and Tony. Tony is not going anywhere, so I hope we can ship Pau.

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Originally Posted by SAGirl

Good article from cbs thanks for sharing Janitor...

Pop may just have to adjust his defensive schemes too, place Kawhi on different guys etc. Throw curveballs to the opponent's offense.

I suspect Pop is going to tough it out with Pau. I would rather Pop mix things up and see what he finds.

But this is the huge concern:It really is the other guys: The Spurs are 26th in the league in points per possession created by the pick-and-roll ball-handler. Tony Parker is in the 6th (!!!) percentile, Gasol the 30th percentile, Aldridge the 37th percentile. This does not bode well for their future. Those are not players who are going to suddenly grow and develop.

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That last sentence is one of the main reasons why I made this post. I think we have some untapped potential on this team. I think starting Dedmon brings balance to both the SL and the bench and also allows all of our players to play to their strengths and potential. Example: Kawhi defense starts to matter more and he gets more touches on O; LMA gets more touch and probably gets more productive overall (damn diva); Gasol eats up opposing benches in the post and uses his passing for cutting guards like Simmons, Mills , and Manu; Of course Dedmon's defense and rebounding thrust are defense back into top three. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic, but I think the change will improve the ceiling of this team to title contenders.

Dedmond, because there is no need to have 2 mfs at pf and C that refuse to play defense in the starting lineup

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Originally Posted by alpha_HaZE

Not a huge concern, guys like CP3, Steph, and KD will not take themselves out of the game because Kawhi is guarding them. The main concern is the defense of guys like Pau and Tony. Tony is not going anywhere, so I hope we can ship Pau.

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This going 4v4 is not the only problem. I think it's one problem among many other things that I think can be fixed. Pau's a good player so he doesn't have to go. I think Pau and Dewayne switching places would be better [and more realistic] than trading Pau.

I would like to try Dedmon, but big minutes cannot be expected from him ... he will foul out eventually

Dedmon ofc

The only way they could probably sell Gasol on coming off the bench is by having the offense run through him and I'd rather maintain the ball movement and pace of the bench because against the elites, no matter what they do, they're going to lose the battle of the starters.

If their issues persist (Aldridge-Gasol should be a better pairing than they've shown; there's nothing inherently wrong with it), then from the under 6 timeout in the 1st and 3rd quarters on, their minutes should be staggered. In non blowouts, a decision on whether Gasol finishes can be determined at the under 6 timeout in the 4th quarter.

It feels good to know I was right again. Pull the I dont want gasol threads.

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Originally Posted by alpha_HaZE

Not a huge concern, guys like CP3, Steph, and KD will not take themselves out of the game because Kawhi is guarding them.

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True and neither Kawhi or Pop are going to let him sit in the corner while the other team's offense is picking us apart. Good to see Tim working with Pau.

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Originally Posted by Brazil

Spurs have to find way to counter that tactics tbh during RS to be able to adapt during POs. Taking Leonard out of the equation is working only for some rosters, we don't have this risk against rosters like Cleveland, GSW, OKC etc but that is a concern yes in the case of Clipps for instance. If a team employs this you surely can counter it by plugging Dedmon and Patty in the starting line up, you play Pau and Parker off the bench.

This is what RS is for, find solution to this kind of issues

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One solution is that they could overload the defense on the opposite side & force the offense to operate on Kawhi's side which should allow him to play help defense or rotate. If they also swing the ball it would end up in Kawhi's man's hand.

Bench Gasol in the 7 minue mark, bring him back to start the second and play till around the 5 minute mark of the second. Repeat the same process in the second half and he ends up getting 25mpg.

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Originally Posted by apalisoc_9

Bench Gasol in the 7 minue mark, bring him back to start the second and play till around the 5 minute mark of the second. Repeat the same process in the second half and he ends up getting 25mpg.

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agree with this

Gasol's stature......i dunno if he will accept being in the bench

a question comes to my mind

Pau is the starter and leader of the spanish national team:

how are they doing defensively?? (olympics and world championships)

just a thought....

Popovich has to give consideration to starting Dedmon, or at least subbing Pau quite early in order to stagger his minutes and get Dedmon to play more alongside LMA.

However, I would also be worried about lineups including Pau and Lee, how have such lineups fared in the defensive rating stats?

Putting Dedmon in to start would be a pretty desperate move in december. I don't see the sl changing at all this season. If it does, it'll be in the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

One solution is that they could overload the defense on the opposite side & force the offense to operate on Kawhi's side which should allow him to play help defense or rotate. If they also swing the ball it would end up in Kawhi's man's hand.

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Good take :tu

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

One solution is that they could overload the defense on the opposite side & force the offense to operate on Kawhi's side which should allow him to play help defense or rotate. If they also swing the ball it would end up in Kawhi's man's hand.

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yup that could be one way... point being you need to try out stuff during RS. I believe this tactic is not going to be effective anyway, I don't see a lot of teams capable to sacrifice their best offensive guard, Spurs just need a stretche of games where they respond well by twisting SL, try stuff like your suggestion... to see it vanish.

danger here is to see a mediocre team doin' it first round and Spurs not being prepared for it.

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

One solution is that they could overload the defense on the opposite side & force the offense to operate on Kawhi's side which should allow him to play help defense or rotate. If they also swing the ball it would end up in Kawhi's man's hand.

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Nah. The easiest solution is to have Kawhi guard the ball. But that's besides the point.

The Bulls game wasn't concerning from a defensive standpoint and shouldn't be used as a model for anything. The Spurs know they can shut down Wade without Kawhi. For him to act like his other examples made any sense is ridiculous. When were the Wizards going to run their offense through Porter (who had no problem scoring in the game anyway, btb)? The Wolves have been emphasizing Lavine over Wiggins all year. Fournier didn't do much of anything all game regardless of who was on him. And Kawhi didn't even guard MaM for fucks sake.

Will GS try to run a whole game without KD touching the ball? Are the Cavs going to leave James in the corner to take away Kawhi? No? Then no one should give a shit about this article. No one the Spurs have any chance of losing to is going to pull out this "strategy". No legit team can afford to sacrifice their first perimeter option, no matter how inviting Pau's and Tony's PnR defense is.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Nah. The easiest solution is to have Kawhi guard the ball. But that's besides the point.

The Bulls game wasn't concerning from a defensive standpoint and shouldn't be used as a model for anything. The Spurs know they can shut down Wade without Kawhi. For him to act like his other examples made any sense is ridiculous. When were the Wizards going to run their offense through Porter (who had no problem scoring in the game anyway, btb)? The Wolves have been emphasizing Lavine over Wiggins all year. Fournier didn't do much of anything all game regardless of who was on him. And Kawhi didn't even guard MaM for fucks sake.

Will GS try to run a whole game without KD touching the ball? Are the Cavs going to leave James in the corner to take away Kawhi? No? Then no one should give a shit about this article. No one the Spurs have any chance of losing to is going to pull out this "strategy". No legit team can afford to sacrifice their first perimeter option, no matter how inviting Pau's and Tony's PnR defense is.

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I feel the Clippers can a little with Mbah a Moute/Redick maybe

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Originally Posted by jiggy_55

I feel the Clippers can a little with Mbah a Moute/Redick maybe

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The Clips can totally beat the Spurs. But they can't do so if they just park Redick in the corner and constantly go away from him. Mbah a Moute can't make you pay enough, his explosion this season notwithstanding. Put Parker on CP and let Green help as much as he wants to.

But of course, the Clips would continue to try to run JJ off screens regardless of who's on him. Their offense needs that threat.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Nah. The easiest solution is to have Kawhi guard the ball. But that's besides the point.

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Teams have defeated that strategy by setting screens to force switches. Against the Duds Pop countered (last season) by putting Kawhi on Gaymond but can't do that against the Cripples b/c Blake will just take him straight to the block.

During the season opener, Pop put Kawhi on Klay to take him out of the game since Dominos was going to get his anyways & Kerr usually milks the Curry/Draymond 2-man game in the 4th quarter but the game was already over. ReDick is a different animal b/c he uses a gazzillion screens & is constant motion that teams have to switch to deny him open looks. IMO, it would probably be better to put Kawhi on Moute & have him play free safety while Patty chases ReDick.

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Originally Posted by Kawhitstorm

Teams have defeated that strategy by setting screens to force switches. Against the Duds Pop countered (last season) by putting Kawhi on Gaymond but can't do that against the Cripples b/c Blake will just take him straight to the block.

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The Spurs are switching on purpose. They aren't being forced to. And that's certainly not why Kawhi doesn't usually guard the ball. Pop like saving that for special occasions.

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During the season opener, Pop put Kawhi on Klay to take him out of the game since Dominos was going to get his anyways & Kerr usually milks the Curry/Draymond 2-man game in the 4th quarter but the game was already over. ReDick is a different animal b/c he uses a gazzillion screens & is constant motion that teams have to switch to deny him open looks. IMO, it would probably be better to put Kawhi on Moute & have him play free safety while Patty chases ReDick.

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I don't disagree with this, but then the narrative that Kawhi's being taken out of the play by teams parking lesser players in the corner falls apart. The author of that article straight-up listed MaM as an example, which is silly for more than just the reason you gave.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

The Spurs are switching on purpose. They aren't being forced to. And that's certainly not why Kawhi doesn't usually guard the ball. Pop like saving that for special occasions.

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Really no choice but to switch the Blake/CP3 PnR at the elbow when CP3 is essentially the best mid-range shooter in the game. When Blake is knocking down his mid-range jumper then it also defeats the trapping strategy against CP3. I would agree that it didn't make sense to switch the PnR in the 2015 postseason when it was being run outside the 3 point line.:lol

Clips don't milk the PnR against the Duds b/c they don't want Draymond to switch onto CP3, they rather try to bully him on the blocks w/ Blake to no avail.:lol When they do run the PnR & get the switch then the Duds essentially ignore Moute/DeAndre to crowed Blake when he's trying to do his crab dribble.

If I'm Pop, I would experiment w/ LMA/Moute, Dedmon/DeAndre, Kawhi/Blake, Danny/CP3, Patty/ReDick then have LMA play off Moute w/ one foot in the paint so he can either blockout DeAndre if Dedmon has to challenge Blake at the rim or use his length to crowd Blake if he's doing his crab dribble move. You can also switch LMA w/ Simmons if Crawford is in the game.

Deserves a bump!

i wanted dedmon starting since early july:

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Originally Posted by gambit1990

don't see gasol coming off the bench...

but i like this rotation:
lma/robinson
dedmon/gasol

so we'd have have an offensive big & and a young, athletic, rebounder on the court.

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now i want dedmon and gasol starting.

Bumpity bump

I actually think it doesn't matter that much. What's more important is the minute split. If Dedmon keeps playing like this he should get at least as many minutes as Pau.

I trust Gasol more than Aldridge in the playoffs when crunch time comes. Aldridge has always been a choker until he proves me wrong. (And I use to live in Portland and watch the Blazers a lot) Gasol is a gutsy player who doesn't shy away from pressure and has the kind of offense to score when needed. His defense will improve when needed too.

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Originally Posted by Seventyniner

I actually think it doesn't matter that much. What's more important is the minute split. If Dedmon keeps playing like this he should get at least as many minutes as Pau.

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I think there is a difference. I like the idea of starting out with a defense-oriented lineup to make baskets hard for the opponent to get at the beginning of the game. It sets the tone of a game and may affect the other team's shooting thereafter. If baskets come more easily at the start of a game then the opponent may gain confidence that enables them to shoot better against the better defensive rotation when it takes the floor.

Once Dedmon started to learn how to play Defense without fouling, I was excited about the possibilities, thus am happy to see Pop is starting him and that Pau is embracing his new role with the team. As others have already mentioned, Pau fits best better with the second unit and Dedmon with the first.

My favorite reason is that of defense, Pau and Tony can't be on the floor together for long stretches of time against offensive juggernauts like the Warriors or the Rockets. And let me say that both of them have elevated their play on defense since the all star break.

if we r talking about players development and peaking in terms of Pop seeing it (or how I think Pop could be seeing it) the best way is to leave Dedmon a starting center. I am sure LMA is the biggest threat when he has to do smaller amounts of defensive and rebounding job. And I love Dedmon's activity on pick-and-rolls. Hopefully once he becomes a nice finisher like Splitter, he would still be a spur.

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Originally Posted by alpha_HaZE

Once Dedmon started to learn how to play Defense without fouling, I was excited about the possibilities, thus am happy to see Pop is starting him and that Pau is embracing his new role with the team. As others have already mentioned, Pau fits best better with the second unit and Dedmon with the first.

My favorite reason is that of defense, Pau and Tony can't be on the floor together for long stretches of time against offensive juggernauts like the Warriors or the Rockets. And let me say that both of them have elevated their play on defense since the all star break.

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Who's elevated their defense? Tony and Pau?

I am also all for Dedmon starting. I want to set the tone defensively to start games. I also think Pau would be more lethal off the bench, and he can be the offensive focal point on the second unit.

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Originally Posted by barbacoataco

I trust Gasol more than Aldridge in the playoffs when crunch time comes. Aldridge has always been a choker until he proves me wrong. (And I use to live in Portland and watch the Blazers a lot) Gasol is a gutsy player who doesn't shy away from pressure and has the kind of offense to score when needed. His defense will improve when needed too.

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totally agree with you man,!

love Gasol............

Pau, i see Dedmon in the second unit with Manu, they have similar energy at defense and offense.

Deadman is a garbage player. Completely replaceable.

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Originally Posted by Play Boban

Deadman is a garbage player. Completely replaceable.

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I ought to punch you square in the jaw.

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Originally Posted by Ice009

I ought to punch you square in the jaw.

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Does the truth hurt that much? The Spurs system has a way of turning trash heap players like Keith Bogans and Dedmon into serviceable players.

:cry but racist pop :cry