#freeforbes?

Manu in losses:

15ppg on 38% shooting, 4.6apg, 3.6TOs.

Parker in losses:

17.6ppg on 47% shooting, 5apg, 4TOs.

"It was Parker's fault it went to 7."

:lol

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

you keep saying this. it's not a position i've taken. and you can keep saying philo all you want if you think it enhances your argument.

and yeah, a 2 game sample size is retarded. you can take any 7 game series and point to a player's 2 worst games. i mean just look at how shitty kawhi was in the '14 finals. or duncan against the pistons

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Then why are you arguing?

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

Then why are you arguing?

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

i'm not speaking for what other people said. i just lol'd at your 2 game sample size to show :cry how bad manu was :cry

and even in your stupid cherry picking, its a nice bonus that he hit a would be game winner in one of them

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Why are you comparing Manu's role and Tony's role in that team? Up to that season, it was Parker's team. HOTS. He had a favorable matchup in that series... he didn't even close out those 'close' games...

Why do you gloss over any of those arguments?

Look, that's not hating on Tony. Yes, much more was expected of him than Manu, and yes Manu and Tiago did deliver much more than anybody else that series.

Just like Tony was a whole lot better than Manu against Portland, in the following series. There's no shame in that, there's no hating on Manu for saying it, tbh...

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He doubled up Calderon in PPG and shot a better raw percentage than him. What more do you want? :lol

You're also acting like team defenses don't exist.

:lol so 37 year old Manu playing limited mins more or less matches "MVP" Parker in losses and that's not a problem?

You just said 2 bad games is huge on a series after saying Tony, who had a much bigger role AND played more mins, had 3 bad games? Am I missing something? :lol

Would you at least agree Tony had a much bigger role on that team and a favorable matchup to boot?

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Why are you comparing Manu's role and Tony's role in that team? Up to that season, it was Parker's team. HOTS. He had a favorable matchup in that series... he didn't even close out those 'close' games...

Why do you gloss over any of those arguments?

Look, that's not hating on Tony. Yes, much more was expected of him than Manu, and yes Manu and Tiago did deliver much more than anybody else that series.

Just like Tony was a whole lot better than Manu against Portland, in the following series. There's no shame in that, there's no hating on Manu for saying it, tbh...

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manu played against portland? had no idea tbh

Follow the argument. The MAIN argument from Manu fanboys was that Parker was the primary culprit for the series going 7, acting like Manu was out there dropping an efficient 20ppg while Parker was killing the team. Manu was the PRIMARY culprit in 2 of those 3 losses. I don't give a shit what his role, age, etc was. He shot 22% in those losses. That's team killing no matter how many loose balls he dives for and selective memory Kobe shots he hits.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

He doubled up Calderon in PPG and shot a better raw percentage than him. What more do you want? :lol

You're also acting like team defenses don't exist.

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I wanted him to actually abuse Calderon, and you just said yourself he shat the bed in 3 of the first 6 games... why is it an outrage to point that out?

If Kawhi shits the bed in 3 game against the Grizzlies right now, and can't drop 20 ppg on Chandler Parsons, you'll be rightly outraged and pointing fingers. That's all I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

Follow the argument. The MAIN argument from Manu fanboys was that Parker was the primary culprit for the series going 7, acting like Manu was out there dropping an efficient 20ppg while Parker was killing the team. Manu was the PRIMARY culprit in 2 of those 3 losses. I don't give a shit what his role, age, etc was. He shot 22% in those losses. That's team killing no matter how many loose balls he dives for and selective memory Kobe shots he hits.

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

i'm not speaking for what other people said. i just lol'd at your 2 game sample size to show :cry how bad manu was :cry

and even in your stupid cherry picking, its a nice bonus that he hit a would be game winner in one of them

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

Follow the argument. The MAIN argument from Manu fanboys was that Parker was the primary culprit for the series going 7, acting like Manu was out there dropping an efficient 20ppg while Parker was killing the team. Manu was the PRIMARY culprit in 2 of those 3 losses. I don't give a shit what his role, age, etc was. He shot 22% in those losses. That's team killing no matter how many loose balls he dives for and selective memory Kobe shots he hits.

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No, no, no... Manu was actually the reason you even had a chance in one of those 3 losses. (and Tony was watching from the bench). So don't tell me it's 'Manu fanboys' when Pop glued his ass to the bench in the clutch. Something was going on.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

:lol so 37 year old Manu playing limited mins more or less matches "MVP" Parker in losses and that's not a problem?

You just said 2 bad games is huge on a series after saying Tony, who had a much bigger role AND played more mins, had 3 bad games? Am I missing something? :lol

Would you at least agree Tony had a much bigger role on that team and a favorable matchup to boot?

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Manu averaged 28 minutes. Not limited by any means.

Tony's games were "less bad" than Manu's bad games.

See here:

Manu in losses:

15ppg on 38% shooting, 4.6apg, 3.6TOs.

Parker in losses:

17.6ppg on 47% shooting, 5apg, 4TOs.

"It was Parker's fault it went to 7."

And the only reason Manu's stats look "okay" because he had a 9-12 27 point effort in a game the Spurs lost by 21 and were at one point down 30. Again, the close losses in that series, Manu averaged a big 9ppg on 22% shooting. But yeah, we'll gloss over it because he's old or something.

Glossing over roles, age, etc is just like cherry-picking too... completely dishonest. Nobody was asking TD to be 2003 TD in that series either. It's unrealistic. Expectations are what they are, and are based on a player's capacity at the time.

And for the 10th time, that's not hating. Everybody expects Kawhi to be 'the man' right now. That's due to his age, role, talent, etc. There's nothing unrealistic about that, despite whether you give a shit about that or not.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

Manu averaged 28 minutes. Not limited by any means.

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Manu played 27.5, and Tony 33. Manu had an ORtg 112 and a DRtg of 106 (only TD and Splitter were better).

He had better AST%, STL% (by a wide margin), TRB% than Tony when Tony was supposed to be the better player by a mile.

So if we want to cherry pick stats, we can do this all night. Numbers actually back me up, not you. But it's stupid to play this game. I can go back and bump the threads from back then. It's all there. There's no 'rewriting' anything. I didn't even made those posts, and it's not "Manu fans"...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

No, no, no... Manu was actually the reason you even had a chance in one of those 3 losses. (and Tony was watching from the bench). So don't tell me it's 'Manu fanboys' when Pop glued his ass to the bench in the clutch. Something was going on.

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This is the Kobe defense. A basketball game just isn't the 4th quarter. What you do in previous quarters decides the game just as much as what you do late. Manu was an inefficient 12 points on 14 shots. Tony had 19 points on 18 shots. It probably wasn't fair to label him the main culprit, since D-League was 1-5 in a one point loss, but point is, he wasn't any more or less worse than Parker that game (he made up for his inefficiency with defense, but end of the day, basketball is about putting the ball in the hoop).

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

This is the Kobe defense. A basketball game just isn't the 4th quarter. What you do in previous quarters decides the game just as much as what you do late. Manu was an inefficient 12 points on 14 shots. Tony had 19 points on 18 shots. It probably wasn't fair to label him the main culprit, since D-League was 1-5 in a one point loss, but point is, he wasn't any more or less worse than Parker that game (he made up for his inefficiency with defense, but end of the day, basketball is about putting the ball in the hoop).

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This is not the Kobe defense. If Kawhi is glued to the bench to close a game this season, it's not the Kobe defense. Something is up. Either he's not playing well or he's hurt. You can pick one or the other.

Your best player is not out there to close the game, then something is going on. That's why I've been saying that somebody can bring up the injury card, because otherwise, we both know what's up.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Glossing over roles, age, etc is just like cherry-picking too... completely dishonest. Nobody was asking TD to be 2003 TD in that series either. It's unrealistic. Expectations are what they are, and are based on a player's capacity at the time.

And for the 10th time, that's not hating. Everybody expects Kawhi to be 'the man' right now. That's due to his age, role, talent, etc. There's nothing unrealistic about that, despite whether you give a shit about that or not.

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No. But think Manu could've been better than 9ppg on 22% shooting in those two 1 and 2 point losses.

:lol But he that one shot that one time.

The Kobe Defense.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

No. But think Manu could've been better than 9ppg on 22% shooting in those two 1 and 2 point losses.

:lol But he that one shot that one time.

The Kobe Defense.

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You keep glossing over he was great on the wins, not in game 7 (he was on that one too), all the other ones. We don't even get to game 7 otherwise. Heck, he was WAY better than what you would expect from your old 6th man...

Like I said, we can play the cherry picked numbers all night, you're on the losing side of that argument.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

I wanted him to actually abuse Calderon, and you just said yourself he shat the bed in 3 of the first 6 games... why is it an outrage to point that out?

If Kawhi shits the bed in 3 game against the Grizzlies right now, and can't drop 20 ppg on Chandler Parsons, you'll be rightly outraged and pointing fingers. That's all I'm saying.

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Can we agree on this, at least? I know you've hit on Kawhi before due to this...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

Manu played 27.5, and Tony 33. Manu had an ORtg 112 and a DRtg of 106 (only TD and Splitter were better).

He had better AST%, STL% (by a wide margin), TRB% than Tony when Tony was supposed to be the better player by a mile.

So if we want to cherry pick stats, we can do this all night. Numbers actually back me up, not you. But it's stupid to play this game. I can go back and bump the threads from back then. It's all there. There's no 'rewriting' anything. I didn't even made those posts, and it's not "Manu fans"...

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:lmao Using those for a 7 game series. You realize they're extrapolative stats, right? If Calderon, who would be like 5th down the line in the pecking order on that team, scores 4 points on 2 offensive possessions against Parker, Tony will have a 200 defensive rating. Parker's usage was almost twice as high.

And no argument Manu is a better playmaker and defender. I'm countering your idea that it was Parker's fault the series went 7, when Manu was just as, if not more, below par to his standards (even per his role and age) vis a vis Parker's.

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Originally Posted by ElNono

You keep glossing over he was great on the wins, not in game 7 (he was on that one too), all the other ones. We don't even get to game 7 otherwise. Heck, he was WAY better than what you would expect from your old 6th man...

Like I said, we can play the cherry picked numbers all night, you're on the losing side of that argument.

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We're not arguing about the games won. Again, your claim Parker was the reason it went 7.

And the numbers do not back that up.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

:lmao Using those for a 7 game series. You realize they're extrapolative stats, right? If Calderon, who would be like 5th down the line in the pecking order on that team, scores 4 points on 2 offensive possessions against Parker, Tony will have a 200 defensive rating. Parker's usage was almost twice as high.

And no argument Manu is a better playmaker and defender. I'm countering your idea that it was Parker's fault the series went 7, when Manu was just as, if not more, below par to his standards (even per his role and age) vis a vis Parker's.

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:lmao you bring up a 2 game sample size, tell all of us how 2 games in a 7 game series is 'huge' but a 7 game sample size is not representative?

Talk about the Kobe defense. Pick a lane, mid... or at least if you're going to cherry pick stats and defend them, try to be a bit consistent, tbh... :lol

And what's that about twice the usage????? Are we looking at the same numbers? Tony had a 31.8 USG% for the series, Manu 30.1... how's that twice as high? If you don't understand stats, don't use them...

Lastly, your point about Manu being 'below par' is cherry picked on the losses. One of which he actually had the gamewinner, despite the fact that at that point Manu was old and had a much lesser role (which you said you don't give a shit about, but nonetheless, obviously matters).

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

We're not arguing about the games won. Again, your claim Parker was the reason it went 7.

And the numbers do not back that up.

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He is the reason we went 7 games, mid. He had a completely favorable matchup and he didn't make them pay until game 7.

Up to this day, I do honestly think he was hurt. It's the only reason he wouldn't be out there in the clutch either. I also said Patty sucked too, and I love Patty, and he did great in series later down the road, but that's the honest truth.

Just like Manu was MIA against Portland, huge against OKC and the Finals...

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Originally Posted by ElNono

:lmao you bring up a 2 game sample size, tell all of us how 2 games in a 7 game series is 'huge' but a 7 game sample size is not representative?

Talk about the Kobe defense. Pick a lane, mid... or at least if you're going to cherry pick stats and defend them, try to be a bit consistent, tbh... :lol

And what's that about twice the usage????? Are we looking at the same numbers? Tony had a 31.8 USG% for the series, Manu 30.1... how's that twice as high? If you don't understand stats, don't use them...

Lastly, your point about Manu being 'below par' is cherry picked on the losses. One of which he actually had the gamewinner, despite the fact that at that point Manu was old and had a much lesser role (which you said you don't give a shit about, but nonetheless, obviously matters).

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I'm talking about relative to Calderon's. You don't understand that a limited usage player has greater odds of posting a nice OffRtg/DefRtg metric, since it's extrapolative.

And there is no "inconsistency." You're invoking a stat that takes a large sample size to iron out.

Also, I'm not even criticizing Manu. If you're bad in 2 games, you can redeem yourself in other games. And he did so in a key game 4 road win and a swing game 5. I'm arguing against this idea Manu carried us (not true) while Parker was floundering and killing the team in losses.

So underwheling in a game that the team clearly wanted to win.

In fairness, he didnt get that many looks.

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Originally Posted by midnightpulp

I'm talking about relative to Calderon's. You don't understand that a limited usage player has greater odds of posting a nice OffRtg/DefRtg metric, since it's extrapolative.

And there is no "inconsistency." You're invoking a stat that takes a large sample size to iron out.

Also, I'm not even criticizing Manu. If you're bad in 2 games, you can redeem yourself in other games. And he did so in a key game 4 road win and a swing game 5. I'm arguing against this idea Manu carried us (not true) while Parker was floundering and killing the team in losses.

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I'm not even hating on Tony either. I'm just pointing out that he had a completely favorable matchup and he couldn't exploit it until Game 7.

It's not even you, mid. I heard somebody else bring up not long about "but Game 7!" that series, but Tony was hard to watch that series. Pop put him on Calderon and also on Devin Harris, and they were both killing us. I'm not making stuff up. Spursraider didn't make shit up, the posts at the time were 'thank god Dirk can't defend the P&R for shit', which is what we killed them with between Manu and Tiago. That was our weapon that series. It should've have been, but it was.

I also didn't say Tony was the sole reason either. I said 'largely'. Patty sucked balls that series. Boris, outside a super clutch shot, was also shit, and he had Dejuan Blair guarding him. The reality is that there's no game 7 without Manu and Tiago in that series (and TD in game 1), that's the actual truth, no fanboi BS. Was Tony great in Game 7? Absolutely. Was that what was kinda expected for the series, also true.

I still think he was hurt.