Harvey: How winners could lose out: Spurs vs. Saints

It may be just me, but I think the ticket prices need to be lowered. I am not talking about the good seats. Just the upper level type.

I have noticed that the majority of the loudest and craziest fans are those of lower income. The ones who wear the caps with the old Spurs logo. The ones who spray paint their older cars and trucks with #20, #21, and #9 because they don't have the money to buy the flags the guys sell on the corner gas station.

I have a lot of friends and know a lot of people who don't make too much money who are the best at supporting the Spurs. They try to catch all the games on TV because they can't even afford the upper level tickets. I know it won't happen, but I think the Spurs ought to lower prices on tickets. Excuse my English, but its too "white collar in the SBC during Spurs games.

I know the Spurs need the money from the white collar folks, but something should be done to address those blue collar folks.

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Originally Posted by whottt

I disagree with one of the points he was making...

The Spurs are not good at marketing themselves on the bigstage, and they never, ever have been, IMO.

With the exception of one brief period in the 80's they have never marketed themselves in Austin. I think they might rank 8th in popularity in Austin among the Texas sports franchises(to be fair they do show the Spurs games here over Rockets and Mavs, usually, but it would change in a second if the Spurs weren't winning)...Right after all the Dallas and Houston teams(and UT)...they have never done much to capture their surrounding market outside of SA, they have never done anything to capature the Austin market, other than holding a few exhibition games here 15 years+ years ago.

As brilliant as the Spurs have been, in terms of winning, for virtually all of their history...they have been lousy at marketing...

There is no Tex Scrammm in the Spurs history...so I don't think the Spurs lack of popularity is all due to the citizens of this area, a lot of it has to do with the Spurs just being marketing retards...It's amazing how naive they are, it's almost like they think the all the Cowboys had to do to becomes so popular was to win, and it's equally amazing how they are squandering this once in a lifetime opportunity to build a worldwide dominating fan base....

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not even close to the truth, in the mid 90s the Spurs had a package for Austin residents and used a bus sponsered by the Austin Statesman newspaper to bring the ticket holders to the Alamodome. I remember seeing that bus at all weekend games and some week day games.

As for sports team popularity in Austin
#1 UT football
#2 UT baseball
#3 Cowboys
#4 Spurs, Rockets, Mavs, Rangers, Astros, Texans, Ice Bats, Express

The tremendous TV percentages in the viewing audience is a direct result of the low income status of this market. Plenty of folks simply cannot afford the escalating price of Spurs tickets.

I suppose no one's to blame, but its a fact that many of my middle income friends who were long time season ticket holders gradually dropped their tickets as the prices rose. Sure there were richer folks who took their place, but these were the fans who had stabilized the team over the early years with their season tickets. I no longer have tickets since I live in Houston, but my last seats (on the floor, front row) would be priced out of my range now. They were $50 each per game when I left. And now they want you to buy a membership to the Spurs Corral club which used to be free.

Because of all the games and the extra expense of playoffs, I bet the Spurs tickets will cost more than comparable Saints tickets for a season.

If people in a big city can't afford to buy tickets to see the team play, then it's not a good place for two pro sports teams, which was the point of the article.

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Originally Posted by GoSpurs21

not even close to the truth, in the mid 90s the Spurs had a package for Austin residents and used a bus sponsered by the Austin Statesman newspaper to bring the ticket holders to the Alamodome. I remember seeing that bus at all weekend games and some week day games.

As for sports team popularity in Austin
#1 UT football
#2 UT baseball
#3 Cowboys
#4 Spurs, Rockets, Mavs, Rangers, Astros, Texans, Ice Bats, Express

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What? You mean there actually was lightrail/bus deals to the stadium? It can't be. ChumpDumper said it wasn't so!.

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Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

And buy me some tickets for the light rail line to San Antonio so i can see a game a week......................

I think not. Only a handful of games are actually shown up here -- quite a few Maverick games make it on FSW as well. Austin is an island onto itself with UT dominating any other sports interest. After that, its pro sports loyalties are given to Dallas and Houston as much if not more than San Antonio.

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Someone else dares say its an equal amount of Spur fans as other NBA teams? They must be idiots too, right Chump?

Sorry to burst SA's bubble but if the Saints or any other team permantly moved to SA, they would usurp the spurs in popularity. A crappy football team will over the long run be more popular than a great basketball team in most places.

NFL > NBA any day. You will also find when theres more games in towns, there becomes less rapid fans. If you had the major four, i guarandamntee you that you wouldn't have the outpouring you do for the spurs. People become more numb to sports. Its like if christmas came 4 times instead of once. Why make such a big deal about a team returning home after a loss when there is a major sport or two going on ALL YEAR LONG?

GoSpurs and SickHomer...

Chump is right on this one...the Spurs have never done shit to capture this market and it is a fucking rabid market for Sports...

Ok so maybe they did try it a bit in the 90's(That period you mentioned Go Spurs was I believe when the Spurs also held a couple of exhibition games here that I mentioned. 11 years ago believe it or not, and they also tried some limited marketing circa 80-83 as well. They pushed Gervin on the Austin market hard and I think that probably surpassed anything they did in the 90's..but Austin was really small back then)

They have NEVER made the attempts to capture this market like the Cowboys have...My whole life there have been uptenn billions signs promoting the Cowboys here, even the Rangers...I think I have seen one billboard for the Spurs in Austin...Hell I used to see more Spurs advertising in Waco(the Drob Dahill Industries signs).

Sorry...but they have more or less always been lacklustre in the Austin area in terms of marketing...either they take it for granted, or else they just don't think it's a winnable market.

And there shit that backs this up, that they really haven't got a fucking clue about how to get their product in the air here without a Television body doing it for them. EG: The fucking blacking out of games here...it's been this way the entire time the Spurs have been in SA...In the pre TNT cable days you never saw the Spurs on TV...it wasn't even that good in the late 80's and early 90's...if you wanted Spurs action in Austin you had to buy season tickets...or else

I assume this is because, in theory, KENS(or whatever the local SA station that carries them is) had Austin range and Austin is considered part of the Spurs home market...but you haven't been able to pick up KENS or any SA statio outside of DEEEEEEEEEP South Austin since like 1975 an they've never pushed any deal here for local broadcast rights, until about 4 years ago. I am not trying to make the blackouts the issue here...because you couldn't see the games whether or not they black them out or not...because they weren't on TV here...and no SA station could really reach here...even though they seemed to think otherwise for 30 fucking years.


It's only now...after TNT, after FSSW that the Spurs finally have a local broadcast deal here...and I swear it didn't happen until after the Spurs won their first title.

Shit like that...they never pushed their product on this market like the Cowboys did, and continue to do...

And they don't get as much coverage for a 3 time fucking champion as the other teams do for not doing shit...it's as easy to see an Astro Game here as it is a Spurs game...Hell, it's not that hard to see a Rangers game here...and that team has been in the toilet from day 1...but I could pick up local Rangers games for a decade before the Spurs had them.

No...the Spurs are not good at marketing their product to the Centex region...there are a lot of Sports dollars floating around this town. A lot. Austin is a wealthy town and the Spurs have never gone after that money hard...they've been very naive in their approach to Austin..very smalltownish.

MB is right to an extent...that there are a lot of transplants in Austin..but that doesn't keep the Cowboys from being king shit here.

And I'd argue that the Spurs are more popular here than the Icebats...hell the Icebats get coverage out the Wazoo on Sports radio here...The Spurs don't get anything until the finals...if I want Spurs talk I tune into WOAI or the Ticket.

And I bet the Round Rock express have more of an advertising budget for the Austin market than the Spurs do.

Sorry...but the Spurs have not been good at capturing this territory...they haven't even truly owned the SA market as evidenced by them nearly jumping several times...

No...if you understand anything about marketing then you cannpt say with any basis in reality that the Spurs are good at it...and you are just being needlessly homeristic and subjective...for some inane reason that really does nothing to improve the teams fortunes in the Centex area...Insecure maybe? But whatever it is...you are wrong.

Marketing is easily the worst aspect of the Spurs organization...and if they were as hafl as good at it as they have been at actually fielding competitive teams...SA would own the Centex, South of Texas...shit, even Mexico.

Go read up on some history sometime and see how Tex Schramm was such a visionary in building the Cowboys WORLD WIDE appeal...The Spurs had the guy who wrote the book living right up the road from them, they had a birdseyes view to it being done in their home market...and they never even got past the first page...

And the potential they have with this roster...is unlike any, that any American Franchise has ever had in history, to capture the World Market.

How often does a dynasty with an international roster come along in a sport that equally popular in America as it is the rest of the World?

Yet I see them doing the same stuff they have always done, with only a slight stepping up of the intensity ...just thinking an exhibition game will take care of it.

I do applaud their decision to start holding training camps in places like the VI...or Russia...this is definitely the Spurs improving in this area and attempting to capitalize on their situation...but I am going to withold judgement on their commitment to it until I see other things they are doing. I'd like to see them stepping outside of the NBA stock marketing campaign and take some initiative themselves...it's very concievable they could become the most popular sports team in the World...but they have to be able to dream it....and it's something they have to be willing to do for YEARS, to reap the benefits.


If they really wanted to rule ass they would hold some of the training camps in Western Europe and China in the basketball strongholds of those regions.....Go after Italy, France, Germany...etc as well.

But up to this point their marketing has always been Bush league and I just don't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Jimcs50

Look at attendence in the mid to late 80's.

It was around 50-60%.

This city does not have the money to support a loser team.

Every city supports a winner...that is nothing to brag about.

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Great point. Because San Antonio in the late 80's is the same city in 2005. :rolleyes

Also, would you please back up your statement with some kind of "proof."

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Originally Posted by wildbill2u

The tremendous TV percentages in the viewing audience is a direct result of the low income status of this market. Plenty of folks simply cannot afford the escalating price of Spurs tickets.

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Yeah, that's so true. I mean, in my entire life I've probably been to 4 or 5 Spurs games. So that makes me and my family poor, huh?

Wait, we're not.

I watch every game on tv, because I like it better than going to the game live.

The reason tv ratings in SA are so high is because people love the Spurs in this city. Sure they are the people who are low income who watch the game at home, but I'm sure you'll find some low income fans at each game in the nosebleed sections.

Relative to other NBA markets, San Antonio is one of the least attractive.

As for Austin, it is not a Spurs market. Even after winning 3 championships, the Spurs have not gotten any traction there. In addition to the out of state (and country) transplants, you have, well, a shitload of native Texans and there's nothing Texans love more than football. Also, a lot of those people are from the DFW and Houston areas. So to the extent they will watch NBA basketball, they already have a team.

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The Spurs didn't come close to selling out every game last season, and they don't think they will this year, either.

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Every game or every home game?

If home........... then WTF IS WRONG WITH YOU F%^$&* PEOPLE.


I think the NFL is stupid if they try to invade this NBA city. Look at the affects.

Seattle. All the time the Sonics do pretty good the Seahawks blow ass. While only recently have they been truely competitive.

Go try St. Louis and see what they stick up your ass! sigh, Saint better look somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Relative to other NBA markets, San Antonio is one of the least attractive.

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The same reguritaed nonsense for Mrs. Byrant.

Wow, I am utterly shocked. :rolleyes

You love to minimize San Antonio. From supercilious comments like "San Antonio de Bexar." To the fact your can never ever say anything positive of this city.

So I ask, explain please, how San Antonio is one the least attractive. Besides your own snobby opinion. Lay out some hard proof. Some data, some facts that state this.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

If people in a big city can't afford to buy tickets to see the team play, then it's not a good place for two pro sports teams, which was the point of the article.

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I don't think that was the point of the article. Harvey's gloomy world tells him a team is supported only by winning. That's what the Spurs and Cowboys have in their history - And not just winning but championships. The Saints have never even been able to surpass Tampa Bay. Non winning teams aren't attractive anywhere even in Atlanta or Chicago. Thus the stakes are high in SA (even thought the Cowboys are another city's team). And Buck thinks fans will be "light" their support. It's easy to mask it in affordability but that's not the case.

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

The same reguritaed nonsense for Mrs. Byrant.

Wow, I am utterly shocked. :rolleyes

You love to minimize San Antonio. From supercilious comments like "San Antonio de Bexar." To the fact your can never ever say anything positive of this city.

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Ha. You take that as a slight?

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So I ask, explain please, how San Antonio is one the least attractive. Besides your own snobby opinion. Lay out some hard proof. Some data, some facts that state this.

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You mean like the TV household data that's been posted in here? The per capita income ranking for MSAs? What hasn't been covered for you?

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

You mean like the TV household data that's been posted in here? The per capita income ranking for MSAs? What hasn't been covered for you?

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Again, how is San Antonio unattractive to the NBA when the Spurs are one of the most successful franchises financially?

All the same regurgitated bullshit you so freely pontificate is no measure of how attractive or unattractive a city is to the NBA.

It’s nothing more than your own rule based opinions.

Look at Atlanta, one of the largest TV markets, a large per capita income yet they can’t even fill up half their arena nor even get a majority of their games shown on local TV.

No, the NBA goes by that hard and fast stat of "city love".

The Spurs are successful financially because the county capitulated and gave them virtually all of the arena revenues and a very small share of the arena cost, in addition to the luxury tax program, the new (in '99) salary cap structure and doing well scouting international talent. Notice how the great SA market is not in the top 3 or 4 factors? SA's population on average is, yes, poorer than in other markets. The data bears that out. If you have a problem, get in touch with the US Census Bureau and tell them that they are not doing their job because they aren't measuring the true length of the erection you have for San Antonio de Bexar.

Just because someone points out the problems with SA's market doesn't mean anything. You need to get off this trip as the defender of all that is good and pure about San Antonio.

The Spurs are fucking bankrolling right now. They don't give a shit about the Eastsider, Westsider or Southsider.

They give a shit about the corporate guy, the big dollars.

The Spurs blow at marketing. But, they don't give a crap because they are rolling the dough.


The NBA shares the profit, don't they? Why in the hell would the Spurs run up expenses?

Why should they, they are the best team in the NBA.

They are going to lose again one day, they are one Duncan ankle away from being in the lottery.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

No, the NBA goes by that hard and fast stat of "city love".

The Spurs are successful financially because the county capitulated and gave them virtually all of the arena revenues and a very small share of the arena cost, in addition to the luxury tax program, the new (in '99) salary cap structure and doing well scouting international talent. Notice how the great SA market is not in the top 3 or 4 factors? SA's population on average is, yes, poorer than in other markets. The data bears that out. If you have a problem, get in touch with the US Census Bureau and tell them that they are not doing their job because they aren't measuring the true length of the erection you have for San Antonio de Bexar.

Just because someone points out the problems with SA's market doesn't mean anything. You need to get off this trip as the defender of all that is good and pure about San Antonio.

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In the past 15 years San Antonio has gone from 19 percent of city residents being under the pverty line to under 14 percent. In any city that is something very hard to do.

Not mention per city proper, San Antonio has a larger (per 2004) per capita income.

Please stop using 2000 census numbers.

That doesn't mean jack. Look at the avg per capita income of SA in relation to other NBA cities.

San Antonio can support both teams. However, there are alot of Cowboy fans here in town that might be apprehensive about throwing jack at the Saints.

But if the Saints move here, it's a fresh start whether they are the Clippers or not.

WGAF.

I don't like the Cowboys and you can book me for 2 season tickets.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

That doesn't mean jack. Look at the avg per capita income of SA in relation to other NBA cities.

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Again, WTF does that have to do with anything other than a rousing game of "my dick is bigger than yours?"

Spurs get high ratings, Spurs get great attendance. That's all that counts in the game of life in the NBA. Not how one city compares to another in per capita income.

Spurs get high ratings in a market in which the average fan is poorer than in most other NBA cities. Again, do you think that companies want to devote marketing resources into a market in which people don't have as much disposable income? Get a clue.

Also a source for your '04 data would be nice, even with it being just poverty data. The Census Bureau is an authoritative source on income stats and it takes them a while to put it together. The SA market didn't change overnight from 2000 to today.

Try again.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Spurs get high ratings in a market in which the average fan is poorer than in most other NBA cities.

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Again, you're chasing a MacGuffin. This means nothing. It's still high ratings. More people watching the more ad revenue. Super bowl commercials aren't so goddamn expensive for the sake of it. And I don't anyone is going: "Well, sure the Super bowl gets high ratings but I bet a lot of the people who are watching are... well poor. So it's just too unattractive for me to put an ad on."

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Again, do you think that companies want to devote marketing resources into a market in which people don't have as much disposable income? Get a clue.

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I don't know, go ask Detroit, New Orleans, Houston, Orlando, Memphis.

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Also a source for your '04 data would be nice, even with it being just poverty data. The Census Bureau is an authoritative source on income stats and it takes them a while to put it together. The SA market didn't change overnight from 2000 to today.

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Yeah it did. And look it up on Wikipedia.

The San Antonio economy has changed almost over night. In 2000 tourism was the largest economic industry.

Today, both Financial Service and Bioscience top tourism.

Go look at the BLS, BEA and Census Bureau websites. Look at the household television data that someone posted in here a few weeks back. You cannot make San Antonio out to be something it's not. I do not understand why on Earth you cannot force yourself to understand that San Antonio isn't anything other than a below average television market in the NBA. This isn't life or death. WTF?

You apparently missed this on the Wikipedia entry for SA that I guess you spend every day watching...

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Television

While the city may be one of the largest in the country, San Antonio is only the 37th largest television market in the United States, according to Neilsen. The following list are the major affiliate television stations in the city.

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source

Also I cannot see the source for your assertion about the top industries in the city on the page. Please quote it and provide a link.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Go look at the BLS, BEA and Census Bureau websites. Look at the household television data that someone posted in here a few weeks back. You cannot make San Antonio out to be something it's not. I do not understand why on Earth you cannot force yourself to understand that San Antonio isn't anything other than a below average television market in the NBA. This isn't life or death. WTF?

You apparently missed this on the Wikipedia entry for SA that I guess you spend every day watching...


source

Also I cannot see the source for your assertion about the top industries in the city on the page. Please quote it and provide a link.

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You lose the battle on one subject and then bring up a completely new subject.

Yes, San Antonio has a below average TV market.

I never denied that nor have made it an issue.

You're still chasing a MacGuffin.

Still waiting on the quote for your assertion that tourism is no longer the top industry in SA. You said it was on the Wikipedia page. Where is it?

I didn't lose any "battle" and if anyone knows how to avoid a subject altogether, 'tis you. You wanted a explanation as to why SA is not an attractive market in the NBA and in pro sports in general. That's the "battle" you lost, kiddo.