Could MLB Stadium, NFL stadium, and NASCAR track Be In Sight for Eastside?

SBC Center plan calls for more planning

Web Posted: 10/13/2005 12:00 AM CDT

Elizabeth Allen
Express-News Staff Writer

After hearing two competing presentations, Bexar County commissioners decided Wednesday to go with the EDAW/Kell Muñoz Architects group to devise a master plan for the SBC Center grounds.

But the selection process, like the eventual plan itself, won't be a simple one.

After discussion with officials of the Spurs and San Antonio Livestock Exposition, who preferred a firm with the competing group, commissioners voted to create a committee that will oversee fine-tuning of the planning team before the planning itself even begins.

"We're trying to keep everybody happy," said Bexar County Judge Nelson Wolff, "but there's limits with trying to do that, because we're trying to move this project on."

The goal is to redesign the existing arena grounds, including outside property if necessary, to create a multi-use complex around the SBC Center.

But with that goal comes numerous ideas and possible partnerships with developers, the city, the state and even the federal government.

County officials would like to see a plan that would build on the Stock Show & Rodeo's agricultural tradition, lure industrial trade shows the Convention Center can't easily accommodate, and take advantage of the SBC Center, which will not be changed. The slew of barns and outbuildings and even the 55-year-old, concrete-and-steel Freeman Coliseum is fair game.

And so is the outlying property. The county's request for proposals included the possibility of buying more land around the East Side property, and for planning purposes, officials and developers agree that the city's adjacent Willow Springs Golf Course is a key component.

The second presenters, a consortium including planning firms Ellerbe Becket and Bullock, Smith & Partners and local architect Saldana & Associates, had some technical troubles that left commissioners frustrated.

But livestock exposition Executive Director Keith Martin and Spurs Sports & Entertainment Executive Vice President Rick Pych praised Bullock, Smith's work on facilities that could accommodate anything from horse shows to bowling lanes.

So commissioners created the seven-member oversight committee in part to see if the first group can persuade Bullock, Smith or somebody like them to participate.

"We're strongly encouraging them to engage that firm at least for some insight," said Commissioner Lyle Larson, a committee member.

Kell Muñoz CEO Henry Muñoz said he is familiar with Bullock, Smith, and would be open to working with that firm if it's not prohibited by some agreement with Ellerbe Becket.

"I would welcome it," he said. "We love associations. We always learn from them."

While the presentations were focused on selling the planning teams, the slides offered by EDAW and Kell Muñoz included a sketch of an SBC Center anchoring a massive sports complex with stadiums for professional baseball and football and a NASCAR track, spilling over into what is now the golf course.

The concept mirrors one floated to city and county officials and others in the community by Dan and Marlene Bailey, Los Angeles-based developers who have been shopping proposals for a megaproject close to the arenas complex and encompassing the golf course.

But people have been cautious about the Baileys' plan since it was reported that Dan Bailey served time in federal prison during the late 1980s for fraud.

Wolff talked about eventually working with nearby property owner Bill Tidwell, the city and other agencies, but didn't mention the Baileys' plan.

Afterward, Wolff said he wasn't really interested in the sports megaplex concept.

"We want to focus first on the doable stuff," Wolff said. "We need the grand plan, but we need to have the piece in place that we know we can do."

Muñoz said the slide was just a brainstorming sketch. He said he has spoken with the Baileys, along with other potential players in the community, but that "we don't work for the Baileys."

District 2 Councilwoman Sheila McNeil, whom Wolff invited to join commissioners on the dais, preferred the EDAW/Kell Muñoz plan.

"The people who are involved in that group have a long and strong relationship with the constituents around the SBC Center," McNeil said, noting former Mayor Ed Garza's participation as a new EDAW employee and Kell Muñoz's work on a nearby school. "That master plan is going to spill over to the community at large."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business....181b7d90.html

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

... former Mayor Ed Garza's participation as a new EDAW employee
http://www.mysanantonio.com/business....181b7d90.html

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The idea is Good, however how about a different firm, with Ed Garza as an NEW Employee I sure the whole East side would be turned into a Soccer field if Garza had his way. :lol :lol

The are surrounding the SBC does need new development. I am all for NASCAR. I wouldn't have to dish out money for hotels if they brought a track here. However, I know it won't happen. I think improving roads around the SBC would be best. I know they have worked on Houston St., but they need to work on more streets there. I just don't won't Ed Garza working on anything near the SBC.

If you think the Alamodome is a vacant joke, just wait until you see what it costs to build a superspeedway like TMS north of Fort Worth. The folks here at least wound up only donating the land and made the racetrack management guys privately finance it. I think the final price tag was $220M, but don't quote me on that.

It's been there for eight or nine years and just now got a second Nascar race. But to do that, they had to give up an IRL event. Anyway, it seats like 160K and has three races a year. The rest of the time it either has fantasy race driving schools or car shows.

Maybe TPTB can start building an NFL-caliber stadium and sell the 'Dome to a church. I still think that if the 'Dome was built to baseball specs back in the 90's, someone over the last decade would have moved there. The fucking Expos played in San Juan, and DC was a lukewarm fallback option, just as one example.

These kind of articles are like porn to Buddy Holly.

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I still think that if the 'Dome was built to baseball specs back in the 90's, someone over the last decade would have moved there.

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I agree. IMO, if that had happened, either TB or AZ would have been awarded here.

Hey, I forgot something. Isn't Harris County building a monster racetrack-thingie too? There's only like twenty-something Nascar races a year across the country, and Texas already has two of them.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

These kind of articles are like porn to Buddy Holly.

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:lol

I can see him staying up late and rubbing one out into his hot-off-the-presses SA Business Journal.

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Originally Posted by j-6

Hey, I forgot something. Isn't Harris County building a monster racetrack-thingie too? There's only like twenty-something Nascar races a year across the country, and Texas already has two of them.

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San Antonio will build a facility to NASCAR specifications and attract a race here..after millions of dollars worth of updates, revisions, and being vacant for 15 years.

I swear I'll put so much sweat and tears into fighting a tax payer financed sports complex. Quit giving tax dollars to corporations.

You know, I can't think of a better spot for a state of the art sports complex complete with upscale dining and entertainment than San Antonio's eastside.

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Originally Posted by j-6

:lol

I can see him staying up late and rubbing one out into his hot-off-the-presses SA Business Journal.

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You, in your mind, can imagine me jerking off? :td

You're a dude, right? You got a pulse, don't you? Do you seek inspiration at

http://www.sachamber.org

?

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It's been there for eight or nine years and just now got a second Nascar race. But to do that, they had to give up an IRL event. Anyway, it seats like 160K and has three races a year. The rest of the time it either has fantasy race driving schools or car shows.

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Actually it holds about 250K people. It has more than three races a year too. They really make a lot of money. NASCAR tickets aren't cheap. Throw in the food, parking, camping, merchandise, and etc. That track brings in so much money it ain't funny.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

You know, I can't think of a better spot for a state of the art sports complex complete with upscale dining and entertainment than San Antonio's eastside.

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Yeah, because Philly's huge sports complex is right dab in the middle of utopia.

So SA should screw up too?

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It's been there for eight or nine years and just now got a second Nascar race. But to do that, they had to give up an IRL event. Anyway, it seats like 160K and has three races a year. The rest of the time it either has fantasy race driving schools or car shows.

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They cancelled the CART race several years ago because drivers were close to passing out on the sharply banked turns, is this the one you were thinking of?

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

So SA should screw up too?

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Screw up how?

Trying to give the East side some development stimulation.

Yeah, like all of the new development around the SBC Center. I suppose those game day parking lots create a ton of well paying jobs.

'Economic development' is the biggest crock when it comes to trying to sell a taxpayer financed stadium, especially it is placed in a less than desirable part of town.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Yeah, like all of the new development around the SBC Center. I suppose those game day parking lots create a ton of well paying jobs.

'Economic development' is the biggest crock when it comes to trying to sell a taxpayer financed stadium, especially it is placed in a less than desirable part of town.

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How is it the biggest crock? When done right it works really damn well.

And the goal of this project and all future projects in that area is to make it a "more desirable part of town."

Then you start elsewhere before you even begin to think about throwing up stadiums. Stadiums are for events. Events where people go to the facility and then go home. Those events are not going to lead to an office or retail development springing up nearby.

Sure, if someone wants to into include office space, retail and hell, residential in such a master plan, then that's a start. But you've got to convince people that part of town is where they want to live and work. That's an incredibly tough sell. This is why these 'economic development' pitches for stadiums in crappy urban areas are a crock.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Then you start elsewhere before you even begin to think about throwing up stadiums. Stadiums are for events. Events where people go to the facility and then go home. Those events are not going to lead to an office or retail development springing up nearby.

Sure, if someone wants to into include office space, retail and hell, residential in such a master plan, then that's a start. But you've got to convince people that part of town is where they want to live and work. That's an incredibly tough sell. This is why these 'economic development' pitches for stadiums in crappy urban areas are a crock.

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Will it be tough? Sure. Will it be overnight? No, Will it takes years? yes. Is it impossible? No.

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Originally Posted by Kip Fanatic

Actually it holds about 250K people. It has more than three races a year too. They really make a lot of money. NASCAR tickets aren't cheap. Throw in the food, parking, camping, merchandise, and etc. That track brings in so much money it ain't funny.

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Do you drive by it three-four times a week? Do you do business in Denton, Joshua, Rhome, Aurora and Trophy Club/Roanoke? If you do, do you hear your clients bitching about the traffic and the increased revenue SMI promised and they never recieved?

I do.

edit - Apologies to Kip for reading his post out of context. That track makes a shitload of money for SMI and maybe the Shell and Motel 6 across 35 from the facility. But all the local businesses get is traffic headaches as the patrons either stay on site or travel into Dallas or Fort Worth for entertainment value.

I of course like throwing some economics to the East Side. On the other hand, the big selling point of SA to tourists/conventions will always be the Riverwalk. San Antonio isn't big enough to support two such areas.

The most novel, and maybe best solution for this, would be some sort of limited light rail connecting downtown to the arena area. Seattle already does this with Key Arena, and it works great.

On the other hand, that's an idea probably too far removed from the traditional SA politicoeconomic culture.

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Originally Posted by SWC Bonfire

They cancelled the CART race several years ago because drivers were close to passing out on the sharply banked turns, is this the one you were thinking of?

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No, that was back around '01 or so. The second IRL race was withdrawn in favor of a Nascar event this winter.

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Originally Posted by ShoogarBear

I of course like throwing some economics to the East Side. On the other hand, the big selling point of SA to tourists/conventions will always be the Riverwalk. San Antonio isn't big enough to support two such areas.

The most novel, and maybe best solution for this, would be some sort of limited light rail connecting downtown to the arena area. Seattle already does this with Key Arena, and it works great.

On the other hand, that's an idea probably too far removed from the traditional SA politicoeconomic culture.

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I once had the idea of extending the Riverwalk to the SBC Center.

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

You, in your mind, can imagine me jerking off? :td

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I can't imagine jerking off with my thumb pointed down. That's just awkward.

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Originally Posted by j-6

I can't imagine jerking off with my thumb pointed down. That's just awkward.

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That was a thumb down for not good.

But whatever floats "your" boat.

But the next time you want to imagine a guy jerking off, don't think of me. It's creepy.

Weird Obession Forum

The worst thing would be to create one large complex that has all sports facilities. That thinking is so archaic. It's like Office Depot, Babies R Us or any other "mega" idea. Everything would be so spread out. Then, like indoor malls, it will get outdated. Better to have individual sites. Sports gatherings are inherently urban in their experience. One thing missing from SBC is the procession to and from the arena like at the alamodome (which isn't really a dome, BTW). I was at Turner Field a few weeks ago and had a blast going to and from the game on shuttle buses from nearby downtown.

The reason the Alamodome couldn't be built to baseball specs is the narrow site it's on. It only allows a rectangular football field configuration and not a diamond shape. Well, that and it's not the trend to have shared facilities anymore. I always thought the San Antonio Expos had a nice ring to it..............

What does Buddy Holly see when he looks at the Marriott Rivercenter?

Yeah, lets put another quarter of a billion taxpayer dollars into a second Football Stadium that wouldn't get used (because that whole Alamodome thing is working out so well, 3 games in 12 years), a baseball stadium for a team that San Antonio will never have, and a NASCAR track for a city that is not even a racing town.

Considering we're still paying off the SBC center and the all-but-vacated Dome, this city needs to lay off the trying to milk the sports market and start focusing on real politics and economics again. Entertainment value and tourism appeals aren't worth having the highest poverty rate in Texas because our voters like to throw freaking money around on shit this city doesn't even need. The last thing we should be paying for is another freaking sports facility that isn't going to get used.

I think the concerns of the county officials accurately reflect that of people who are more concerned with upgrading a suburbanite lifestyle in SA rather than addressing the true nature of the problem.

NASCAR in Eastside SA? WTF?

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Originally Posted by Dex

Considering we're still paying off the SBC center and the all-but-vacated Dome

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The Dome has been paid for a long time now.

Apparently none of you jerkhards read the entire article.

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Originally Posted by TheWriter

Apparently none of you jerkhards read the entire article.

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Hey, the next time you want to imagine a guy jerking off, don't think of me. It's creepy.

:D

I won't venture any opinions on the rest, but the NASCAR idea is ludicrous. The people in that area came out with torches and pitchforks and drove off La Semana Allegre. You think they're going to put up with race track noise? :lol :rollin