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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chinook
Fuck off with your ad homenims.
There was nothing ad hominem about my comment. You clearly don't like Murray's game and don't think he can reach an all-star level. Instead you nitpick at a 21 year old who despite his age has produced admirably and has shown more moxie than most of the vets on this squad. Instead you rather have TP starting and telling the media that they hope to win 1 out of the next 3. That's great leadership! Give me Murray and I'll take the mistakes on the court for now.
Also, on Kawhi, nobody saw his super stardom but things started to change as soon as he came into the league and when Pop called him a "future star" you were still out there with your worthless dribble about all the flaws in his game just like you are doing now. What you missed then and now is that like KL, DM wants to be the best and with his great physical skills along with his drive, he will inevitably reach his potential. I'm not saying DM will ever have KL's impact but it wouldn't surprise me.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HarlemHeat37
A major problem when using RPM or BPM or any on/off metric(even when it's adjusted and accounts for teammates/competition) is evaluating a scenario like Murray's, where his role and level of competition suddenly changed in the middle of a season(in a major way, where he went from inconsistent minute allocation to a key starter)..
The biggest problem I have when looking at those particular numbers is that the total season number isn't reflective of current impact..unless you're actively tracking them, which would take an eternity and be a waste of time if you aren't getting paid for it, the overall number is misleading to an extent..
For example, if you looked at the overall numbers, it would appear that Pau Gasol is having a very good season..however, if you consistently follow the numbers and their progression(which I do), you would know that all of Pau's on/off metrics have dropped DRAMATICALLY since his great start to the season..he's still going to finish with a nice overall impact number, but the reality is that he's been horrendous for the past 2 months or so(unfortunately, nobody is going to take the time to track the entire league's numbers for a baseline and break those numbers down into monthly or bi-weekly figures)..
I'm fine with Murray's progression as a starter, though..I've been highly critical of him and I still don't think he knows how to play the PG position, but the alternatives are scarce..when Parker is rolling like he was last night, I'm straight with him getting those minutes, but you can't rely on him to do that consistently(it helps a ton that he's playing against bench defenses, too)..
True, and I hinted at that previously. Murray has been tailing off recently. We saw something similar happen with his individual DRtg number at the start of the season, and that still hasn't recovered. I don't know what Murray's on-off is since he took over the start role, but if the downtrend in the aggregate stat is true, then it hasn't been very good. That is why people cut data in the first place. Using a general stat for a specific situation is fallacious.
I also don't hate Murray as a starter in a vacuum. It's just not the answer given how the roster is constructed. Being potentially better than Parker isn't enough for me, not when fundamental things like spacing are issues. I think Parker gives them more, and that that would only be more true with Kawhi back. But who starts and who comes off the bench isn't the issue so much as Pop making the correct rotation. If you purposefully break up your two best defensive guards and only guards with real size to avoid having two small and poor defenders coming off the bench together, then don't keep playing those small guards together anyway by making one the sixth man. It would be rather easy to keep one of Green or Murray on the court at the same time, but Pop just doesn't seem interested in that, which is putting everyone in suboptimal positions.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HarlemHeat37
A major problem when using RPM or BPM or any on/off metric(even when it's adjusted and accounts for teammates/competition) is evaluating a scenario like Murray's, where his role and level of competition suddenly changed in the middle of a season(in a major way, where he went from inconsistent minute allocation to a key starter)..
The biggest problem I have when looking at those particular numbers is that the total season number isn't reflective of current impact..unless you're actively tracking them, which would take an eternity and be a waste of time if you aren't getting paid for it, the overall number is misleading to an extent..
For example, if you looked at the overall numbers, it would appear that Pau Gasol is having a very good season..however, if you consistently follow the numbers and their progression(which I do), you would know that all of Pau's on/off metrics have dropped DRAMATICALLY since his great start to the season..he's still going to finish with a nice overall impact number, but the reality is that he's been horrendous for the past 2 months or so(unfortunately, nobody is going to take the time to track the entire league's numbers for a baseline and break those numbers down into monthly or bi-weekly figures)..
I'm fine with Murray's progression as a starter, though..I've been highly critical of him and I still don't think he knows how to play the PG position, but the alternatives are scarce..when Parker is rolling like he was last night, I'm straight with him getting those minutes, but you can't rely on him to do that consistently(it helps a ton that he's playing against bench defenses, too)..
There’s a thread I made which I am not sure if you caught it bc you aren’t as regular as you used to. I shared a tweet from someone who does that kind of analysis from the first 30 games of the season to games 31-61 or 62. Gasol was the one player that had fallen the steepest among regular rotation guys. If people watched most games specially the significant ones they would know he was bad against every playoff team, there’s games Joff outplayed him, against GSW he could only play 10-11 minutes and the team was a massive negative in that stretch. It wouldn’t even surprise me that his plead to start again was granted not bc of anything Davis did but bc Pop wants to get Gasol back on track somehow. He’s still under a massive contract and Spurs have to get value out of him. Moreover they do need him to be better to win games...
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Re: Takeaways from this season
^^The broadcast addressed the starting backcourt last night IIRC..Sean said Pop wants more ball-handling on the court at 2-guard if Murray is starting at the 1..I understand the logic of benching Danny for that reason, but obviously Mills isn't ideal as a ball-handler, either..the TP/Mills duo has disgusting on/off numbers, though, it just doesn't work..it's just a tough situation finding viable combinations with 3 tiny guards(I don't even know how Forbes got a rotation spot) and 2 fake PGs(Murray/Mills)..it's astonishing that after all these years, Parker is still the only PG they have on the roster who knows how to play the position..
I wouldn't be surprised if Parker's minutes see an increase down the stretch(since the Spurs are far from a playoff lock), but I don't know what to expect anymore..Pop's been in panic mode since December(I don't blame him since it's difficult with Kawhi's injury, but he's the one who created this imbalanced, illogical roster)..
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
acoelho1
There was nothing ad hominem about my comment.
Yes, there was. Saying my take is based off some perceived dislike of Murray is a direct ad homenim.
Quote:
You clearly don't like Murray's game and don't think he can reach an all-star level. Instead you nitpick at a 21 year old who despite his age has produced admirably and has shown more moxie than most of the vets on this squad. Instead you rather have TP starting and telling the media that they hope to win 1 out of the next 3. That's great leadership! Give me Murray and I'll take the mistakes on the court for now.
It's not a nitpick to bring up the reality that the team has been losing games left and right with him starting. That isn't a comment on Murray's future, as isn't bringing up the other lineup changes Murray starting as required. DeJounte being unable and reluctant to shoot is a real thing, and it's been affecting how teams are defending the Spurs when he's on the court. It's not hate to understand that.
And I think Parker/Green-Murray/Mills has more upside than the other way around, but I've also said numerous times that I am fine with it the way it is now so long as Pop doesn't play Patty big minutes. I haven't even said that Murray should play less. In fact, I think Murray staying in longer and playing with Green before Tony comes in is a much better rotation. Murray/Green as a pair has the most upside, but Pop has pretty much killed that by starting Mills as the third man and making Tony the sixth.
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Also, on Kawhi, nobody saw his super stardom but things started to change as soon as he came into the league and when Pop called him a "future star" you were still out there with your worthless dribble about all the flaws in his game just like you are doing now.
Who gives a fuck what Pop says? People were so willing to dismiss him when he didn't play Splitter or Hill (and now that he's not playing White), but him glowing about Kawhi means that only haters could be conservative? Again, thinking he was going to be top-10 at his position is hardly pissing on him. Besides Kawhi, the Spurs currently only have one player who's top-10 at their position in Aldridge. It's not an insult, especially given how many great small-forwards are and were in the league when that thread was started.
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What you missed then and now is that like KL, DM wants to be the best and with his great physical skills along with his drive, he will inevitably reach his potential. I'm not saying DM will ever have KL's impact but it wouldn't surprise me.
The thing is this is not a rational thought. No one in their right mind should be anything but completely flummoxed if Murray becomes a top-three player in the league. Shit, even a top-30 player in the league would be surprising as fuck. As a fan, I understand wanting to believe that. But you can't hold it against people who don't. Kawhi and Murray aren't the first guys to want to be best. There are plenty of those guys in the g-league. Ganas only goes so far.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HarlemHeat37
^^The broadcast addressed the starting backcourt last night IIRC..Sean said Pop wants more ball-handling on the court at 2-guard if Murray is starting at the 1..I understand the logic of benching Danny for that reason, but obviously Mills isn't ideal as a ball-handler, either..the TP/Mills duo has disgusting on/off numbers, though, it just doesn't work..it's just a tough situation finding viable combinations with 3 tiny guards(I don't even know how Forbes got a rotation spot) and 2 fake PGs(Murray/Mills)..it's astonishing that after all these years, Parker is still the only PG they have on the roster who knows how to play the position..
I wouldn't be surprised if Parker's minutes see an increase down the stretch(since the Spurs are far from a playoff lock), but I don't know what to expect anymore..Pop's been in panic mode since December(I don't blame him since it's difficult with Kawhi's injury, but he's the one who created this imbalanced, illogical roster)..
There is a legit solution (at least when everyone is healthy), but it requires him to push Tony and Manu down in the rotation and Forbes out completely. Tony can't be the sixth man. He's not big enough or dynamic enough to make up for the drop in defense. Pop probably sold him on the benching by saying he would be the new Manu (who isn't even as likely to come back as folks think given his contract). But that's obviously not true unless Parker and Murray get better at playing together. Manu could be the sixth man, but he's also too old to play that many minutes. He should be Anderson's/Kawhi's backup and nothing more outside of games where he has it going on. Green and Gay should be higher up, both for what they can do and for whom they'd be replacing.
Pop should do his subs earlier than the six-minute mark. Get Pau and Mills out for Green and Gay at like four or five minutes into the game. Then bring in Tony for Murray after the six-minute mark. Then Manu for Anderson at like the four-minute mark and Gasol back for Aldridge at three minutes.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chinook
There is a legit solution (at least when everyone is healthy), but it requires him to push Tony and Manu down in the rotation and Forbes out completely. Tony can't be the sixth man. He's not big enough or dynamic enough to make up for the drop in defense. Pop probably sold him on the benching by saying he would be the new Manu (who isn't even as likely to come back as folks think given his contract). But that's obviously not true unless Parker and Murray get better at playing together. Manu could be the sixth man, but he's also too old to play that many minutes. He should be Anderson's/Kawhi's backup and nothing more outside of games where he has it going on. Green and Gay should be higher up, both for what they can do and for whom they'd be replacing.
Pop should do his subs earlier than the six-minute mark. Get Pau and Mills out for Green and Gay at like four or five minutes into the game. Then bring in Tony for Murray after the six-minute mark. Then Manu for Anderson at like the four-minute mark and Gasol back for Aldridge at three minutes.
I like that. I'd like Davis to get some minutes somewhere.
Obviously if Kawhi comes back, you'd reshuffle the entire thing, but assuming he doesn't I'd like Davis to continue to get some playing time. I wouldn't want those minutes to come at Kyle or Danny's expense, Davis is simply not a wing, but you'd have to do something to Gasol's minutes for example
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Re: Takeaways from this season
He shouldn't be getting benched for entire 4th Q.. at least until Kiwi gets back.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SAGirl
I like that. I'd like Davis to get some minutes somewhere.
Obviously if Kawhi comes back, you'd reshuffle the entire thing, but assuming he doesn't I'd like Davis to continue to get some playing time. I wouldn't want those minutes to come at Kyle or Danny's expense, Davis is simply not a wing, but you'd have to do something to Gasol's minutes for example
It's a waste of whatever good Pau brings, but having Davis start and Parker, Ginobili, Green, Gay and Gasol (four Gs...) as the second unit would be the likeliest thing in my opinion. If/when Kawhi returns, I can't see all three of Anderson, Gay and Bertans getting minutes while all three PGs are also in the rotation. Davis would likely fall out to be situational shooter who would play more against small teams. Starting Gasol almost necessitates Lauvergne getting minutes, and even a short stint pretty much takes a rotation spot.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
i always wait to see what happens because i'm certainly not going to get anything other than a fan's perspective on ST. it doesn't mean that some of the observations on here aren't ever right, just redundant and more obvious.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SAGirl
He shouldn't be getting benched for entire 4th Q.. at least until Kiwi gets back.
Lol at this stat..... jesus
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaNu4Tres
The problem with your theory when assessing the situation of Murray starting is that it holds little weight -- because it's just your subjective opinion w/ no statistical evidence to support your theory. There's no secret power behind your take that overrides facts such as statistical evidence. You want to point to Ws and Ls when Murray starts, but there's so many other factors that actually have to do with that-- which I already alluded to. You're really overthinking this and it seems like you're just trying to find anything to hold on to regarding Murray. It wasn't even 2 months ago when you said, he wasn't close to being ready or he "couldn't even dribble in practice".
By the way, I want to make this very clear. I'm not blindly just using advanced stats. My eyes watching this game for 25 years, help me form this opinion as well. Murray impacts the game in more ways than any ordinary traditional "point guard". Most fans can't see the small important things he does on both ends of the floor and just look at how he can't shoot ( which he's improved on in recent weeks btw). Parker was an super elite offensive point guard, but never really had an impactful overall game. If Murray keeps developing his offensive game, he has the potential to overcome Tony Parker as the best point guard the Spurs ever had.
Parker was above average defender in his prime. He played good defense in the 2005 Pistons series. He was also a great ball handler from 2005 on, end even won the Skills challenge. I think a lot of the perceived lack of passing ability comes from his relatively low assist stats. But that is largely a result of the Spurs system. Underrated imo.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
barbacoataco
Parker was above average defender in his prime. He played good defense in the 2005 Pistons series. He was also a great ball handler from 2005 on, end even won the Skills challenge. I think a lot of the perceived lack of passing ability comes from his relatively low assist stats. But that is largely a result of the Spurs system. Underrated imo.
Hes an average passer at best. He would rather score than pass. Manu had and has better court vision. Manu would rather win than score
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Have always liked Kyle's game and said last year he was our 3rd best defender behind Leonard and Green. He is even better now. Be great to have Gay/Leonard/Kyle on the court at the same time.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaNu4Tres
The problem with your theory when assessing the situation of Murray starting is that it holds little weight -- because it's just your subjective opinion w/ no statistical evidence to support your theory. There's no secret power behind your take that overrides facts such as statistical evidence. You want to point to Ws and Ls when Murray starts, but there's so many other factors that actually have to do with that-- which I already alluded to. You're really overthinking this and it seems like you're just trying to find anything to hold on to regarding Murray. It wasn't even 2 months ago when you said, he wasn't close to being ready or he "couldn't even dribble in practice".
By the way, I want to make this very clear. I'm not blindly just using advanced stats. My eyes watching this game for 25 years, help me form this opinion as well. Murray impacts the game in more ways than any ordinary traditional "point guard". Most fans can't see the small important things he does on both ends of the floor and just look at how he can't shoot ( which he's improved on in recent weeks btw). Parker was an super elite offensive point guard, but never really had an impactful overall game. If Murray keeps developing his offensive game, he has the potential to overcome Tony Parker as the best point guard the Spurs ever had.
You are dumb as shit, and obviously blind. 25 years of watching basketball and you dont know what a good pg looks like?
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Murray is definitely something special and I am amazed by all the negativity surrounding his game. The Spurs are stronger when he’s on the court pushing the pace, grabbing rebounds and stealing everything that comes close. You guys are going to look foolish again. The guy will be a top pg.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
acoelho1
Murray is definitely something special and I am amazed by all the negativity surrounding his game. The Spurs are stronger when he’s on the court pushing the pace, grabbing rebounds and stealing everything that comes close. You guys are going to look foolish again. The guy will be a top pg.
Nice alt
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chinook
This is firstly just a shitty ad homenim. You don't know how many games I watch and if the amount I watch would affect my argument. More importantly though, you specifically mentioned how teams are letting Aldridge beat them. I don't have to watch other teams to know that's not the case. I can just look at Spurs games and get every detail as to how teams are defending Aldridge. However, the bolded is exactly a talent/decline issue.
No, it wasn't. If you're going to respond to a comment about a league wide trend, then you better watch the league outside of Spurs games with a modicum of regularity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that you don't.
Wait until Leonard returns. Outside of the occasional severe mismatch, teams will generally live with Aldridge's offense.
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They'd get more threes with better talent, as well as more layups. Guys are generally incompetent and/or hesitant to score. Portland had little problem getting good shots for Lillard, Batum and Matthews. There's a horribly misguided assumption that what we are seeing is a team completely built to suit Aldridge's style, and it's not that at all. It's filled with shitty, declining and/or inconsistent guys who have nothing to hang their hats on night in and night out. You won't get any other type of offense when no one on the roster can provide it (/anymore).
As I've alluded to, they're obviously somewhat related. Walker would naturally shift the style somewhat.
Always the front office apologist. You're conflating this style can no longer win a championship with my saying they necessarily attempted to create it.
Aldridge Trial Blazers is a terrible example. The game has evolved drastically and rapidly from '15 on and it's only becoming more pronounced by the season.
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This is very presumptuous. First, that the Spurs would trade for Walker. Second that Walker would be willing to give the team anything less than maybe a haircut discount. And third that this particular trade is workable. There are others, but those are the main assumptions. The reality of having Kawhi at $35 Million, Aldridge at $25 Million and Walker at $25-30 Million requires a lot of financial sacrifice for a small-market team that can't turn a profit in a 60-win season. Assuming Walker is good enough to be the second-best player on a title team is already stretching it, but if he is more good enough to where he's getting Conley money, the trade isn't worth it anyway. They can be the second-best team in the league playing the style they choose and with the roster they prefer. They've already demonstrated that.
Of course it's presumptuous. It was meant hypothetically, as in if did, here's how I think it would play out. Didn't say anything about a discount either, I just think, unless he re-signs, Walker goes for $20-25M. Don't know if he's quite good enough to be a co-2nd best player on a title team, but do know Spurs can't do better.
Financial sacrifice is going to be required to contend for championships again. This is the problem with this organization and you apologists: they can't recreate the past. They need to start playing by today's rules or they can watch more teams pass them by like Rockets have done.
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It hasn't been the "Big Three Era" in almost a decade. The team has survived through the changing eras through a rotating cast of impact players. They went through plenty of years where they were a really good team with teams built better for the time period. That they probably can't beat Golden State outside of miracle scenarios wouldn't be a sign they have to force it, not if they really believe in Murray. They didn't move Tony in 2002 to try to get ahead of the three-peat Lakers. They didn't trade Hill for Carter in 2010 to match up with the Heatles. Ignoring that they probably wouldn't NEED to trade Murray with White looking like a good prospect and Walker's asking price only falling as an expiring, I don't think they would do so just to increase their title hopes minutely.
It was up until '15. What worked even through the first half of this decade won't now though. The Heat and Thunder weren't the Warriors.
Timing is everything. The 3-peat Lakers had an aging O'Neal, a simmering power struggle between him and Bryant and a subpar team outside of them. The Heat were always somewhat flawed because of Wade's being an awkward fit with James and the lack of a center.
You don't chance a good portion of a top 5 player's prime and the remainder of another All-Star's, on a prospect as flawed as Murray is for this era (unlike Parker was). Right now, they have no chance. With Walker, they'd have a slight chance. Since it's extremely difficult to get to that point, they should be all in if given the chance.
Let me get this straight. You said you'd probably do it, but are now arguing against yourself, just so you don't have to agree with me? :lmao
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TD 21
No, it wasn't. If you're going to respond to a comment about a league wide trend, then you better watch the league outside of Spurs games with a modicum of regularity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that you don't.
No. You said it was a leaguewide trend to specifically let Aldridge post up. That is not something that requires looking at other teams. Every Spurs game catches every games that other teams have a chance to defend Aldridge. Therefore, I don't need to watch non-Spurs games to comment on that trend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TD 21
The league has collectively decided that, in most cases they'll live with Aldridge taking mostly the types of shots defenses want to give up because even if he makes them at a higher rate than most would, it's not 3s, layups or free throws.
Quote:
Wait until Leonard returns. Outside of the occasional severe mismatch, teams will generally live with Aldridge's offense.
This is a different argument. Leonard is one of the best scorers in the league and will be the top-overall target to take out offensively. Get a shittier but still competent offensive player like Eric Gordon, and LMA would get defended just the same as he his now.
Quote:
As I've alluded to, they're obviously somewhat related. Walker would naturally shift the style somewhat.
Always the front office apologist. You're conflating this style can no longer win a championship with my saying they necessarily attempted to create it.
Another shitty ad homenim. I've never been a front-office apologist. There's a difference between understand why someone did what they did and agreeing with them. Regardless, nothing I said suggested that PATFO wasn't to blame for the instability of the roster's talent. Rather, I didn't jump to baseless conclusions like you did by assuming that the team wanted shitty shooters simply because they were supposedly opposed to the three. I also didn't conflate a damned thing about your take. It's been pretty clear, and I've just disagreed with it. The Spurs may not be able to beat GS with this style, given that the players they signed can't even execute it well. But they damned sure can be the next level of teams. That's just as well as anyone else, regardless of how well their style matches your desires.
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Financial sacrifice is going to be required to contend for championships again. This is the problem with this organization and you apologists: they can't recreate the past. They need to start playing by today's rules or they can watch more teams pass them by like Rockets have done.
SAH again. You are once again assuming the Spurs have your priorities. They probably don't. They need to focus on being a solvent team more than going for broke every year. They aren't going to be the Cavs and just throw money at the roster until it's up to your standards. Maybe if they sell the team like Houston did, the new owner woudl do that. Until then, understanding the reality of the Holts' financial situation isn't apologizing; it's not living in a fantasy.
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It was up until '15. What worked even through the first half of this decade won't now though. The Heat and Thunder weren't the Warriors.
Timing is everything. The 3-peat Lakers had an aging O'Neal, a simmering power struggle between him and Bryant and a subpar team outside of them. The Heat were always somewhat flawed because of Wade's being an awkward fit with James and the lack of a center.
You don't chance a good portion of a top 5 player's prime and the remainder of another All-Star's, on a prospect as flawed as Murray is for this era (unlike Parker was). Right now, they have no chance. With Walker, they'd have a slight chance. Since it's extremely difficult to get to that point, they should be all in if given the chance.
Let me get this straight. You said you'd probably do it, but are now arguing against yourself, just so you don't have to agree with me? :lmao
It's sort of hilarious that you think you made a compelling argument here. You agree the Warriors are a special case, but still think PATFO would be more aggressive in trying to beat them than they were with the Lakers and Heatles. If "timing is everything", they likely understand that the timing just isn't there right now. In your estimation, Walker only bumps up their chances slightly. That's not worth the financial sacrifice and loss of resources. Unless the team disagrees with you and think Walker pushes them over the top, it's a dumb trade. They don't need to be in a hurry, especially without knowing how Kawhi will respond physically.
My evaluation on what I think the team will do is different than what I'd like them to do. That's a very basic distinction that you've had issues with more than once. I don't think PATFO would think of a Walker trade the way you paint it. There's an obvious price that they won't exceed, and I'm not sure it's high enough to get Charlotte to bite. However, I, as a fan with no financial stake and how thinks a slightly more interesting playoffs is worth potential down-the-road hardship, would obviously love them to make big sweeping moves. In that same way, I don't think PATFO would even consider trying to get into the lottery, but as a fan, I'd actually be in favor of it. But you couldn't resist slipping in another SAH before the end.
And no, the Big Three era ended either when the Suns took their cookie in the 2010 semis or when they got 8'd the next year. The "Kawhi era" is very distinct from the 2004-2009 years when the Big Three, Bowen and Horry were the main guys.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TD 21
No, it wasn't. If you're going to respond to a comment about a league wide trend, then you better watch the league outside of Spurs games with a modicum of regularity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you've said that you don't.
Wait until Leonard returns. Outside of the occasional severe mismatch, teams will generally live with Aldridge's offense.
As I've alluded to, they're obviously somewhat related. Walker would naturally shift the style somewhat.
Always the front office apologist. You're conflating this style can no longer win a championship with my saying they necessarily attempted to create it.
Aldridge Trial Blazers is a terrible example. The game has evolved drastically and rapidly from '15 on and it's only becoming more pronounced by the season.
Of course it's presumptuous. It was meant hypothetically, as in if did, here's how I think it would play out. Didn't say anything about a discount either, I just think, unless he re-signs, Walker goes for $20-25M. Don't know if he's quite good enough to be a co-2nd best player on a title team, but do know Spurs can't do better.
Financial sacrifice is going to be required to contend for championships again. This is the problem with this organization and you apologists: they can't recreate the past. They need to start playing by today's rules or they can watch more teams pass them by like Rockets have done.
It was up until '15. What worked even through the first half of this decade won't now though. The Heat and Thunder weren't the Warriors.
Timing is everything. The 3-peat Lakers had an aging O'Neal, a simmering power struggle between him and Bryant and a subpar team outside of them. The Heat were always somewhat flawed because of Wade's being an awkward fit with James and the lack of a center.
You don't chance a good portion of a top 5 player's prime and the remainder of another All-Star's, on a prospect as flawed as Murray is for this era (unlike Parker was). Right now, they have no chance. With Walker, they'd have a slight chance. Since it's extremely difficult to get to that point, they should be all in if given the chance.
Let me get this straight. You said you'd probably do it, but are now arguing against yourself, just so you don't have to agree with me? :lmao
You pretend to know so much and act like you have all the answers...yet spew total bullshit and hide behind the fact this team was dealt the worst hand by far in the league..yet you use that as justification for your point.
The Rockets passed up the Spurs..well no shit. They added Paul and the Spurs lost a top 5 player.. What did you expect?
This team is flawed and will be until if and when Kawhi comes back..it’s not a fair assessment to say this team sucked when it wasn’t built to be this way. I’m not saying this team is championship level but I’m not going to dismiss the fact when healthy NOBODY competed better against GSW. Yeah that was last year but it’s still a fact you cannot deny..which is why PATFO ran it back as “Plan B” when they whiffed on “Plan A”.
You wer wrong about last years team..what makes you right about this year team??
Sincerely “Apologist”
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Re: Takeaways from this season
And let’s be real with all the bitch mode bloggers..
Y’all take the negative route because it makes it easier to stomach when YOUR team fails..total bitch move. But when you’re wrong and the team exceeds expectations like last year you pussies are nowhere to be found..but we know deep down y’all care just like the rest of us..
It’s like if you hate the team or PATFO so much why waste your time watching or blogging on here? Do y’all truly watch to justify your criticisms?? Sounds pretty fucking miserable tbh
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Re: Takeaways from this season
white should be getting PT.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
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Originally Posted by
Chinook
No. You said it was a leaguewide trend to specifically let Aldridge post up. That is not something that requires looking at other teams. Every Spurs game catches every games that other teams have a chance to defend Aldridge. Therefore, I don't need to watch non-Spurs games to comment on that trend.
I meant doubling in the post in general. Specifically regarding Aldridge, when Leonard returns, you'll see very little of it. Even if Leonard weren't a superstar, if they had a run of the mill featured offensive perimeter player(s), you'd see less of it.
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Another shitty ad homenim. I've never been a front-office apologist. There's a difference between understand why someone did what they did and agreeing with them. Regardless, nothing I said suggested that PATFO wasn't to blame for the instability of the roster's talent. Rather, I didn't jump to baseless conclusions like you did by assuming that the team wanted shitty shooters simply because they were supposedly opposed to the three. I also didn't conflate a damned thing about your take. It's been pretty clear, and I've just disagreed with it. The Spurs may not be able to beat GS with this style, given that the players they signed can't even execute it well. But they damned sure can be the next level of teams. That's just as well as anyone else, regardless of how well their style matches your desires.
Says the guy takes shots in every response. You've always been a front office apologist. On the contrary, I think this has team more shooting in it than they've shown, but it's clearly not emphasized to the degree it should be. There's probably no other organization that would allow the likes of Aldridge, Parker and Anderson to be as mid range obsessed and 3 phobic as they are.
They can't beat Rockets, either. They could beat anyone else in peak form, but the goal should be to chase championships. You don't get anything for being 2nd or 3rd best, despite loser mentality types like yourself bragging about it. This style is not conducive to beating those 2 teams. If they're not going to upgrade, then they at least need to pull a Raptors and maximize what they have instead of continuing to pretend they're smarter than everyone else.
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SAH again. You are once again assuming the Spurs have your priorities. They probably don't. They need to focus on being a solvent team more than going for broke every year. They aren't going to be the Cavs and just throw money at the roster until it's up to your standards. Maybe if they sell the team like Houston did, the new owner woudl do that. Until then, understanding the reality of the Holts' financial situation isn't apologizing; it's not living in a fantasy.
It's astonishing how poor your reading comprehension is. I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.
They'd barely add salary for next season. The one after, yeah, they'd be knee deep in the tax; welcome to contending in this era. After that, there's too many variables to say with any certainty.
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It's sort of hilarious that you think you made a compelling argument here. You agree the Warriors are a special case, but still think PATFO would be more aggressive in trying to beat them than they were with the Lakers and Heatles. If "timing is everything", they likely understand that the timing just isn't there right now. In your estimation, Walker only bumps up their chances slightly. That's not worth the financial sacrifice and loss of resources. Unless the team disagrees with you and think Walker pushes them over the top, it's a dumb trade. They don't need to be in a hurry, especially without knowing how Kawhi will respond physically.
My evaluation on what I think the team will do is different than what I'd like them to do. That's a very basic distinction that you've had issues with more than once. I don't think PATFO would think of a Walker trade the way you paint it. There's an obvious price that they won't exceed, and I'm not sure it's high enough to get Charlotte to bite. However, I, as a fan with no financial stake and how thinks a slightly more interesting playoffs is worth potential down-the-road hardship, would obviously love them to make big sweeping moves. In that same way, I don't think PATFO would even consider trying to get into the lottery, but as a fan, I'd actually be in favor of it. But you couldn't resist slipping in another SAH before the end.
And no, the Big Three era ended either when the Suns took their cookie in the 2010 semis or when they got 8'd the next year. The "Kawhi era" is very distinct from the 2004-2009 years when the Big Three, Bowen and Horry were the main guys.
It's sort of hilarious how arrogant you are for how little you know.
Once again, no reading comprehension. This is IN MY OPINION. It's not what I think they'll do. In fact, I've repeatedly said the opposite.
The time is now. The majority of the core is borderline old or ancient. Wait a few years and all kinds of holes could emerge. Right now, they need only one significant piece to have a chance, which they don't currently have (that's actually a quantum leap) and is all that can be asked for.
The big 3 era ended in '15. Up until that point, they were still mostly the 3 best players and towards the end 3 of the 4 best, no how much people like you, who cam late to the party, want to give the majority of the credit to others.
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Originally Posted by
coachmac87
You pretend to know so much and act like you have all the answers...yet spew total bullshit and hide behind the fact this team was dealt the worst hand by far in the league..yet you use that as justification for your point.
Heaven forbid someone have an original opinion and doesn't blindly go along with everything Spurs do.
You're the worst of the apologists/blind faith homers, with among the worst reading comprehension too. You're not even worthy of any further response.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TD 21
I meant doubling in the post in general. Specifically regarding Aldridge, when Leonard returns, you'll see very little of it. Even if Leonard weren't a superstar, if they had a run of the mill featured offensive perimeter player(s), you'd see less of it.
Says the guy takes shots in every response. You've always been a front office apologist. On the contrary, I think this has team more shooting in it than they've shown, but it's clearly not emphasized to the degree it should be. There's probably no other organization that would allow the likes of Aldridge, Parker and Anderson to be as mid range obsessed and 3 phobic as they are.
They can't beat Rockets, either. They could beat anyone else in peak form, but the goal should be to chase championships. You don't get anything for being 2nd or 3rd best, despite loser mentality types like yourself bragging about it. This style is not conducive to beating those 2 teams. If they're not going to upgrade, then they at least need to pull a Raptors and maximize what they have instead of continuing to pretend they're smarter than everyone else.
It's astonishing how poor your reading comprehension is. I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.
They'd barely add salary for next season. The one after, yeah, they'd be knee deep in the tax; welcome to contending in this era. After that, there's too many variables to say with any certainty.
It's sort of hilarious how arrogant you are for how little you know.
Once again, no reading comprehension. This is IN MY OPINION. It's not what I think they'll do. In fact, I've repeatedly said the opposite.
The time is now. The majority of the core is borderline old or ancient. Wait a few years and all kinds of holes could emerge. Right now, they need only one significant piece to have a chance, which they don't currently have (that's actually a quantum leap) and is all that can be asked for.
The big 3 era ended in '15. Up until that point, they were still mostly the 3 best players and towards the end 3 of the 4 best, no how much people like you, who cam late to the party, want to give the majority of the credit to others.
Heaven forbid someone have an original opinion and doesn't blindly go along with everything Spurs do.
You're the worst of the apologists/blind faith homers, with among the worst reading comprehension too. You're not even worthy of any further response.
The team sucks..this year has sucked. But at the same time the team has been dealt a horrible hand. You pretend like this team you’ve watched and criticized so frequently is the “true” team..like not having a MVP level player doesn’t matter...
You try to justify your criticism so much yet you say you want them to get a “fair share” at GSW..you’re a fickle as fuck fan. You can call me whatever you want..I’m at least fair in my criticism and don’t try hide my true emotions behind a hot take.
I read everything you say and comprehend your bullshit just fine..I just quote you to get your attention.
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Re: Takeaways from this season
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TD 21
I meant doubling in the post in general. Specifically regarding Aldridge, when Leonard returns, you'll see very little of it. Even if Leonard weren't a superstar, if they had a run of the mill featured offensive perimeter player(s), you'd see less of it.
I don't particularly doubt you meant in general. It's not a hot take (even if DAF randomly started a thread acting like it was). However, that you kept trying to harp on your perception of my ignorance of the other teams despite not going back and correcting your statement previously drew my ire. Of course, when LMA is the second option, teams will defend him differently. That's not a statement on post play though. Other teams will double if Kawhi is killing them in the post just as well.
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Says the guy takes shots in every response. You've always been a front office apologist. On the contrary, I think this has team more shooting in it than they've shown, but it's clearly not emphasized to the degree it should be. There's probably no other organization that would allow the likes of Aldridge, Parker and Anderson to be as mid range obsessed and 3 phobic as they are.
They can't beat Rockets, either. They could beat anyone else in peak form, but the goal should be to chase championships. You don't get anything for being 2nd or 3rd best, despite loser mentality types like yourself bragging about it. This style is not conducive to beating those 2 teams. If they're not going to upgrade, then they at least need to pull a Raptors and maximize what they have instead of continuing to pretend they're smarter than everyone else.
First, a "shot" and an ad homenim aren't the same thing. That's the difference between insulting someone and trying to call them something that calls their argument into question. Calling me an "apologist" is wrong because it's inaccurate, but it's an ad homenim because you are trying to assert the reason why I'm disagreeing with your take is because I like all of PATFO's moves, not just because I think your ideas are bad or need work.
Second, I've largely avoided "taking shots" at you. You're extremely sensitive and take a lot of things as personal insults against you, just as you like to read racisim into a lot of people's opinions. I largely live my ST life without thinking "Oh no, TD21 posted something. Gotta go insult that dude." I think one or two posters may have a problem with you. The rest likely don't really care, me included.
Gotta laugh at you simultaneously complaining about other people's loser mentalities while also cowering in fear of the Rockets (even going so far as to act like Houston without Paul is equal to SA fully healthy last year).
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t's astonishing how poor your reading comprehension is. I'm not assuming anything, I'm saying that's the reality of the situation.
You're assuming that's the reality of the situation. Thanks for just demonstrating that you don't know the difference between knowledge and assumption.
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They'd barely add salary for next season. The one after, yeah, they'd be knee deep in the tax; welcome to contending in this era. After that, there's too many variables to say with any certainty.
Another assumption, and one that seems destined to be wrong. They'd likely explode with salary next season, especially if you think guys like Anderson will re-up or that the team will want to use their MLE (which you know, "contending" and all that). After that, you're talking Cavs-esque salaries, much more than, say Houston currently has.
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Once again, no reading comprehension. This is IN MY OPINION. It's not what I think they'll do. In fact, I've repeatedly said the opposite.
You can capitalize shit all you want, but that's not the distinction here. You can have an opinion on what you think the team will do just as much as what you want them to do. The real distinction you're trying to make is that this is just a fantasy you're presenting rather than a prediction. I don't even say that pejoratively. In this fantasy, the Spurs' only concern is winning titles without constraint, and they are willing to trade whomever/whatever and spend as much to get there. I'm more conservative on this issue, because I know the team simply can't afford to spend like you want them to, whether your idea of it being necessary is right or not. I just don't find it interesting to talk about scenarios where they go deeply into debt to slightly bump up their title chances. That's what looking at the reality of the situation actually means.
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The big 3 era ended in '15. Up until that point, they were still mostly the 3 best players and towards the end 3 of the 4 best, no how much people like you, who cam late to the party, want to give the majority of the credit to others.
Glad to see you getting in another ad homenim. Duncan was the best player on the team through four different eras. We may as well just call it the Duncan era if your standard hold true. But the team went through huge changes from 2009 to 2011, when Manu became a permanent bench player, Pop realized Tim couldn't anchor a defense by himself anymore, and guys like Bowen, Oberto, Barry and the like were let go in favor of younger guys. That's when Pop started to legitimately add new core players to the roster rather than just trying to fill cracks. After 2011, it became about pacing the Big Three and getting guys to cover up their weaknesses. It's not about credit; the organization was just on a completely different trajectory after 2009, 2010 or 2011, depending on which year you think ended the era.
