Inside the tension between Kawhi Leonard and the Spurs - Woj

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Originally Posted by daslicer

Your going to have a lot of scenarios in the future where a team is going to be in similar situation to what the Wolves were with KG for the first half of his career. A team will be able to keep their star with the super max but won't be able to build a winning team due to the supermax eating up most of the cap space.

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It's worst than that, actually. The first DPE (the Rose-max) set up that scenario, but at least you knew you had a guy for his best years when he signed that deal. This second DPE (Durant-max) covers the player's ninth-14th seasons (depending on when they sign the deal, and if there's an opt-out). Even for a player that comes into the league at 19, that's still ages 27-32. A guy like Donovan Mitchell would pretty much play that entire deal in his 30s. It's a horrible idea to lock guys into extensions that run into those years without first seeing how they handle their after-30 seasons. Some guys will age to where they're still great; others will decline for various reasons.

Right now, the max has seemed like an inevitable step for any top-two player on a team. But the DPE can absolutely not be thought of that way. The Kings balked and moved Cousins, while the Wizards caved to Wall. I'm pretty sure SAC is happier with their decision.

I must admit, the situation seems fucked. Either Kawhi has a chronic injury which he may never fully recover from or his uncle is a huge faggot who has mind control over him. :lol

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Originally Posted by tmtcsc

After reading the article and listening to the Lowe / Shelburne podcast , I'm not as pissed with Kawhi as I was before. The Spurs have had so much success over the years by doing things their way and being in complete control of their players and organization. If you've ever had to deal with control-freaks in your life, you know how jilted and out-of-whack they become once you wrestle some control away from them. It's not pretty.

I get a sense that is what happened. Once Kawhi went with a second medical opinion & rehab regimen, the Spurs FO became paranoid, angry and frustrated at their loss of control. They blame the uncle and his new representation for the lack of communication. Undoubtedly it threw them for a loop and they DID NOT handle it well.

There is blame to go around on both sides. I hope Kawhi gets better and they reach an agreement.

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His agent isn't with an agency, and has legal shit hanging over his head in FL. Both other NBA players that were once with him are now gone. He's greasing the uncle to the tune of 7 figures, though. This has disaster written all over it for Kawhi, himself.

It's not so much control, as the loss of trust. It's human nature. If you're friends with someone or in a relationship with someone, and they pull back with trust issues, you're going to, too. In ANY business, you don't want to cede control or decision making to parties outside of the business, like letting the uncle have a say in hires of friends and hangers on. That's just bad business. Does it happen in the NBA? Sure. Look at LeBron's first go around in Cleveland. He also left, so appeasement isn't always a good or even a valid strategy.

Via Jabari Young:

Following a story by ESPN detailing the Spurs' relationship with Leonard, the possibility of a trade will only intensify around the NBA.

The question is where would Leonard go?



Though the ESPN story suggests Leonard's uncle, Dennis Robertson, is pushing for a trade to a big market, those close to Leonard told the Express-News no trade conversations with the Spurs or internally have taken place.

Leonard's camp has not decided what route to take. They are waiting for the Spurs to decide they will offer Leonard the supermax.

If that occurs, Leonard's camp will then decide if they will accept the offer and repair any damage with the team, which is partly due to what they believe was a misdiagnosis of Leonard's right quad leading to the current injury.

Also, within Leonard's camp, there has been a feeling of dissipating support from the Spurs tied to leaks about his whereabouts while rehabbing, leaks about the Spurs' doctors clearing Leonard to play, and describing Leonard's medical team as "his group" – a term frequently used by Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich.
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Over the last few weeks, league sources told the Express-News the Sixers could make a push for Leonard this offseason and include their highly-coveted 2018 first-round pick.


Add forward Dario Saric, forward Robert Covington, and last year's top overall pick Markelle Fultz, who is close will Dejounte Murray, to the mix, and the Sixers have an attractive package to offer the Spurs that also removes Leonard from the Western Conference.


Sixers coach Brett Brown could also have an impact. Sources tell the Express-News Leonard would have no problem being coached by Brown, the former Spurs assistant coach.

https://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/...s-12878269.php






So PATFO should offer the Supermax, then Kawhi's "group" will decide if they want to proceed to repair the relationship? That sounds pretty ridiculous

^it's a group playing hardball without realizing they don't have as much leverage as they think they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if PATFO walks away from the relationship. It'll be tough no doubt but I can see them easily doing so and I think it'll take these band of idiots by complete fucking surprise tbh.

It's a real shame because they likely cost Kawhi 10s of millions in guaranteed money.

When Kawhi is playing for another team next year, I just want to know if they hug each other after the game. Will Pop recognize him, or hug someone else thinking he's Kawhi?

Not sure if already posted but here\s the link to the Lowe/Sheldon discussion in support of the article.

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/playPopup?id=23373086

Kinda sounds like

a) lingering injury whose rehab is slow has both sides frustrated and fighting over the next steps
b) Kawhi's "group" wants to be like LeBron's "group." Which by the way already drove LeBron out of Miami dealing with another old school type in Riley. Will/should PATFO adapt?
c) Supermax was going to tough sell to ownership. Now injury, distance (and divorce) seem to make it a near impossible sell.
d) Spurs are just now realizing what its like to be a "normal" NBA team after Timmy franchise would play for discounts and allow Pop to control things. That was the exception. This behavior is closer to the norm for Too 5 players.

no one would put either cousins or wall in the category of kawhi. it really comes down to just the health of leonard. we can guess that there is an added aspect of money involved here where the leonard camp insisted that his condition was not degenerative so that they could rule out any scenarios where the spurs FO uses that as leverage in order to avoid the DPE, but that would seem to have backfired if all it did was indicate that he still doesn't know if he could play now or at the start of the upcoming season. but what we know is not necessarily what the spurs know at this point. does he guarantee that he is ready to go to start the season or is this an answer he cannot give at the moment? if he says yes to that, the spurs would surely ask what makes him so sure of this given that he was just not ready to go as recently as last week. unless, they knew he could play or was very close. there is still a speculative window there that no one is going to seal for us because there is too much at stake in regards to trade scenarios. and a trade is what the spurs and leonard would both want this summer if there was still uncertainty about his injury. the spurs, because they would need to get what they can before the cat is out of the bag and leonard, so that he can get as nice a contract as he can for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by acoelho1

To me it's the only option. Any trade will most likely not produce a player even close to Kawhi's all world talents. The Spurs should risk it given Kawhi's history with the club and of course his talent. I'm not worried about his health and the team seems to think he's healthy enough to play. Nevertheless, the dynamic between the organization and his representation need to be resolved. I typically agree with Pop on most things when it comes to the team but his passive aggressive barbs to the media definitely didn't help the situation. If anything, it made Kawhi look bad and why would you want to alienate your franchise player. This whole incident has been handled poorly on both sides and I'm sure there are other nuggets that we still don't know. The fact is Kawhi is one of if not the best player in the league in my opinion and we should do whatever it takes to bring him back in the fold.

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That's easy to say, because it's not your money.

Collective Bargaining Agreement's section on medical 2nd opinions.

Section 10. Second Opinion. (a) Subject to the additional terms in subsections (b) through (e) below, players shall have the right to receive a second medical opinion at the Team’s expense regarding the course of treatment for an injury, illness, or other health condition that either: (i) has prevented the player from participating in a Regular Season or playoff game for two (2) weeks or more; (ii) in the opinion of a Team physician for the player’s Team, is more likely than not to prevent the player from being able to participate in an NBA game for two (2) weeks or more (or during the off-season, from participating in competitive basketball without restriction for two weeks or more); (iii) in the opinion of the Team physician will not be significantly aggravated by the player continuing to participate in NBA games (or during the offseason participating in basketball without restriction) when the player reasonably believes that continued participation will significantly aggravate his injury, illness or condition; (iv) results in direction from the Team physician that the player should undergo surgery; or (v) results in direction from the Team physician that the player should not undergo surgery when the player reasonably believes that surgery is necessary for the injury, illness or other health condition. The foregoing shall not limit a player’s ability to obtain a second medical opinion in circumstances other than those set forth in Sections 10(a)(i)-(v) above, provided that the Team shall not be obligated to pay for or consider any such second opinion. (b) The parties will maintain a list (the “Second Opinion List”) of jointly-appointed medical specialists (each a “Second Opinion Physician”), by specialty and by geographic region in the United States and Canada, to provide players with the second medical opinions described in subsection (a) above. At least two (2) board-certified physicians shall be designated as Second Opinion Physicians for each specialty in each of the geographic regions. (c) Each Second Opinion Physician will be included on the Second Opinion List for the duration of this Agreement, unless either the NBA or the Players Association has, by December 1 of any year covered by this Agreement, provided written notice to the other party that a physician should be removed from the Second Opinion List. Such removal shall be effective immediately, provided that, unless otherwise agreed by the parties, such removal shall not affect any second opinion process involving such Physician that has previously been requested by a player. (d) Prior to obtaining a second opinion, a player shall notify the Team in writing of his decision to seek such second opinion, the name of the physician who will be performing the evaluation, and the date and location of the evaluation. Upon receiving such notice and prior to the player’s evaluation, the Team will make available to the physician relevant medical information regarding the player. (e) If, pursuant to subsections (a) through (d) above, a player obtains a second opinion from a Second Opinion Physician, the team will pay the medical costs associated with the second opinion provided such cost is reasonable for the consultation. (f) In connection with obtaining a second opinion from a Second Opinion Physician pursuant to subsections (a) through (e) above, a player may not be absent from the Team for an unreasonable period of time or miss any games without authorization of the Team. (g) If the Second Opinion Physician provides the Team with a written opinion, and the player has otherwise complied with Paragraph 7(h) of the UPC, the Team will be required to consider the second opinion in connection with diagnosis or treatment. For clarity, nothing in this Section 10 shall be construed to alter or limit in any way the rights of any Team or the obligation of any player under the CBA or Uniform Player Contract, including without limitation pursuant to the provisions of paragraph 7 the Uniform Player Contract.



per reddit:
"It makes you think, why do folks like Tony Parker insist on making public comments which not only undermine a teammate but also undermine rights which have been collectively bargained on behalf of all players in the interest of protecting players?"

:wow

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Originally Posted by BillMc

Kinda sounds like

a) lingering injury whose rehab is slow has both sides frustrated and fighting over the next steps
b) Kawhi's "group" wants to be like LeBron's "group." Which by the way already drove LeBron out of Miami dealing with another old school type in Riley. Will/should PATFO adapt?
c) Supermax was going to tough sell to ownership. Now injury, distance (and divorce) seem to make it a near impossible sell.
d) Spurs are just now realizing what its like to be a "normal" NBA team after Timmy franchise would play for discounts and allow Pop to control things. That was the exception. This behavior is closer to the norm for Too 5 players.

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b) LeBron's 'group' caused him to leave Cleveland, Miami, and now it looks like Cleveland again. Appeasement hasn't ever worked with these types of groups.

When could Kawhi potentially sign a supermax offer? If it has to wait until July when free agents are able to sign it puts the Spurs in a very bad situation of having to believe Kawhi and Uncle Dennis if they give a verbal agreement but nothing can be put in writing.

I'll repeat what I said previously on the supermax. The decision on giving the supermax was decided prior to this season so the most likely scenario is they have already budgeted for the max and ownership is on board. However, this year's acrimonious relationship has put a monkey wrench into the plan and unless compromise between the parties can be reached, it could jeopardize Kawhi's future with the Spurs. Let's hope both sides can reconcile because no franchise player is coming back in any trade.

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Originally Posted by exstatic

b) LeBron's 'group' caused him to leave Cleveland, Miami, and now it looks like Cleveland again. Appeasement hasn't ever worked with these types of groups.

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Agreed. But Miami and Cleveland got titles out of it. Maybe these groups are the cost of doing business these days....Again, what a blessing Timmy was.

It’s obvious his uncle is going to be like “we would have stayed with SA if they offered Super Max “with out any injury clause. So we think that is a disgrace and we are going to be asking and looking for a trade “. Forget his crazy uncle fool

Love the Phily trade

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks

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Originally Posted by MoSpur02

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks

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Unless they job into the top 3, they are slated to be the 10th pick? meh.

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Originally Posted by duncan2k5

Duncan had "proper" representation... Unfortunately many times these guys are crooks... I'd rather an overambitious uncle that has some financial experience and was there for me in hard times, than some guy I don't know know... Lebron put his friends on, and they managed well... Everything negative said about his uncle is coming from ppl that have an agenda, or are going by third hand information

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great point ...not defending his unc but plenty of shady big time agent/accountants

This whole situation has the Spurs between a rock and a hard place.

Not just for the machinations of the people in Kawhi's "group", but for the questionable status of his injury going forward.

Sure, they could attempt to trade him, but a lot of teams will undoubtedly do so with the same trepidation the Spurs have as to whether he'll hold up over time with regards to this injury.

As a result, the Spurs will likely get low balled on the majority of trade proposals.

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Originally Posted by MoSpur02

:lol @what Jabari wrote. So if the Spurs don't offer the super max deal then they're pretty much outta here. Bye then. And Philly? Let's not forget Jabari is a Philly dude. Of course he would love to see Kawhi in a Sixers uniform.

That pick plus Sairic, Covington, and Fultz? No thanks

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Any scenerio with Philly needs a Simmons or a Emiid in it.

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Originally Posted by Mugen

^it's a group playing hardball without realizing they don't have as much leverage as they think they do.

I wouldn't be surprised if PATFO walks away from the relationship. It'll be tough no doubt but I can see them easily doing so and I think it'll take these band of idiots by complete fucking surprise tbh.

It's a real shame because they likely cost Kawhi 10s of millions in guaranteed money.

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If it goes all the way from no SuperMax to Kawhi walks away from whatever team holds his Bird rights next summer, he will lose $80M, from $219M to $139M.

Get him to sign. Anything. Doesn’t matter if you have concerns about 2-5 years down the road. Get him to sign and you control everything and can trade him anywhere you want.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

I don't need an apology from Kawhi to fans for what happened this year. I can believe that he was mishandled, that there was some blame on both sides or whatever. If it seems like his teammates forgive him, I wouldn't hold him a grudge, because the broken chemistry was really my main issue with how Leonard has been handling this so far.

However, this does not mean I'd want him to get a DPE contract. The article pretty much suggests what I had said earlier: The Spurs believe Kawhi's injury is permanent while Kawhi's camp believes it's something he can recover from if given enough time. A Kawhi who's never more than a part-time player again is simply not worth the DPE. That was one of the worst additions to a CBA that I've seen in a long time. Very few players are worth it, and even fewer teams can afford the contract regardless of what players they have. A healthy and fully committed Kawhi is as worth it on his end, but it was always going to be a dicey proposition for the team to accommodate him. A Leonard is never reaches his former heights isn't worth that.

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Agree 100% not even sure my desperate ass Lakers should sign him to a max deal..the last CBA waa dumb now teams like Memphis are forced to overpay for dudes like Conley.

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Originally Posted by Spurs9

Any scenerio with Philly needs a Simmons or a Emiid in it.

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I doubt they'd trade Simmons for Curry much less Leonard.