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His offense is too pathetic. Playing a zone doesn’t show me how much his defense translates to the NBA. From that game I’d much rather have Cameron Johnson. Spurs have perimeter defense already with Murray and White. Thybulle is not a need. Remember everyone’s wet dreams about Bell?Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyjfive
I wouldn’t want thybulle with our 1st pick but with the raptors pick we have he’d be a good get.. idk where mock drafts have him but most mocks aren’t accurate. I really follow players up until the draft and both Murray and walker were suppose to be top 15 guys in the draft according to mock drafts and they ended up falling to us
Did you read The Stepien article? He’s not just a good or great defender, he’s generational. No one has done what he’s done at the D1 level in like 35 years. If he comes into the league and shoots even 34-35 percent from 3, he’ll have a ten year or longer career like Tony Allen did. If he somehow completely fixes his shot, and hits 40%, he’ll have the impact of a HOF player. THATS how ungodly his defense is. Think smaller Rodman , equally disruptive, minus the psychoses.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
We shall see. One of us will be right, one wrong or both in between. One thing for sure he ain’t ever gonna rebound like Rodman (or be as effective defensively as Rodman who guarded everyone from Shaw to guards).
I also think thybulle ceilling is more end of first round. He is a very good defender, not a good offensive player and he’s already 22. Imo he will go 20-30, depends on his workouts and combine.
Bell is going to have like an 8+ year career in the league, he's not a bust, and Thybulle should translate much better to the NBA because he's not that undersized for the wing and I think is even longer than Bell as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
On the one hand, I agree that Syracuse zone is trash for the NBA, too many bad defenders have come out of it. Of course, it's usually the guys hiding in the zone and not active playmakers like Thybulle. And of course in the games I've watched in full, there's been times when it did end manned up and I've seen Thybulle get beat.
But I love him on the Spurs. I think he's an SF defender with his length and instincts. He's bigger and a lot longer than White, and White's been stuck guarding 6'7"+ guys all year as necessary. Thybulle could take those assignments and be a plus defender there.
Offensively I agree with Sam Vecenie who believes that Thybulle can do more than he shows in a game to game basis. I've likened him to a Garret Temple or poor man's Battier. When he's the best or second best offensive player, there's going to be problems. But get him next to much better players for him to feed off of with cuts and open shots and moving the ball, and he's going to blossom.
I worry that he won't last until the Toronto pick. Boston has all those picks, there's OKC who might never have Robertson normal ever again. Utah could use depth. Pacers, Portland, Philly, Golden State, all those teams could use a fourth/fifth wing on a low salary to come in, make plays as a plus defender, and be low enough usage to not get in the way of the better offensive players.
Sam Vecenie does one for The Athletic (behind a paywall) but will discuss the draft a lot on his podcast and others like the RealGM podcast. I believe last year after the draft he bragged about him being the most accurate out of all the noteworthy ones (SI, ESPN, RINGER, various Stepien contributors, nbadraft, tankathon, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by NickiRasgo
I don't know his current mock as I don't pay for The Athletic
I've liked Thybulle for the Spurs for two years now. But it's a little early to be talking HOF. He broke the PAC10 record for steals that was previously held by Jason Kidd. Kidd had a few other skills to go with the steals. I think it's worth noting that Thybulle's 326 steals is the most in PAC10 history, but 22nd in NCAA history. Does anybody remember the 6'3" Jason Hart who used to play for the Spurs? He had 329 steals, playing for Syracuse (and more REB than Thybulle). Bonzi Wells had 347 STL, plus 92 BLK, plus 843 REB (more than twice as many boards as Thybulle). Nobody was calling Bonzi Wells a generational defender coming out of college.
As recently as a few months ago, Matisse was mostly talked about as a very good defender, but there were lots of doubts about him because he's played zone against college level opposition. Most projected him in the bottom half of the second round, if he got drafted at all. Then, sort of all at once, these articles started showing up downplaying any concern about the zone, and calling him the greatest defender ever. I don't have anything against a good PR campaign - it's just business. But he's the same player he was a few months ago.
I'd like Thybulle as a Spur, but not at the cost of the Spurs' first pick. If he's there at 29, I hope they pounce. IF he translates to the NBA, and IF he develops his shooting, he'll be a bargain. But right now the Spurs have two other guys about the same height who are pretty damn good defenders, and better at other things.
Jason Hart played 4 years in the Syracuse zone, Thybulle only two because they did man under Romar. Washington had terrible defense under Romar but Thybulle was still their best defender. Murray was awful on defense in college under Romar, and look what just a year with San Antonio did for him. If Thybulle had played all 4 years under Hopkins his career steal total would probably be over 400, maybe 425 and that would be #1 all time by a sizable margin
And Bonzi had those numbers sure, but I remember him at a Ball State and they played cupcakes like the rest of the trash MAC. Some of those schools haven't had a player drafted in over 30 years. Even at it's worst the PAC-12 and it's previous incarnations were light years ahead of the MAC.
I don't want Thybulle at all, can't dribble or drive to save his life, haven't we suffer enough with Danny Green to bring his second coming?!?!
And focusing on his historic steal numbers is one thing. But don't forget the blocks.
Filtering out anyone listed as C, C/F, or F/C, when it comes to combined season totals for blocks since 92/93 ... Thybulle is number 100.
But if you check out the heights for players listed at 6-6 and less, he's number 7. If you go by 6-5, his listed height, he's #2 since 92/93. #1 would be 6-5 Marques Blakely who played at the powerhouse Vermont (and also had 100 fewer career steals).
Back to the 6-6 players, you get guys who went to a Eastern Tennessee State, UNC Greensboro, Denver, Rider, and Central Connecticut.
Zone bloated his numbers may be, but they are historically noteworthy.
For the nba he's too undersized, 6-5 Shane Battier is not an nba player...Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
I disagree, especially with a 7' wingspan. But we'll see, maybe he bustsQuote:
Originally Posted by kobyz
I don't think he's a bust, by any means. But look, when you sorted for blocks you filtered out all the big men. But those big men are a lot more able to get blocks in the NBA. A 6'5" guy just isn't going to get as many blocks in the NBA as he did in college. He just isn't. He'll be a very good shot blocker... for a 6'5" guy. I consider Kawhi a generational defender. But John Wall has a season with more STLs and more BLKs than Kawhi's best season ever. There is a LOT more to being a great defender than those two numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by objective
Kobyz comment below has some validity. Danny was a superior defender, and a very good 3P shooter - and people screamed about his inability to drive to the basket. Thybulle's 3P shot is broken as of right now, and he's not going to be driving to the rim successfully in the NBA - at least not for a while. My point is just that I don't think he's worth overpaying for with a too-early draft pick. And I'm a fan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kobyz
Clarke and Thybulle are arguably the two best defenders in the nation. I'm not a huge fan of the latter, but getting both would make a statement for sure.
My fear is other teams pass on Thybulle and Golden State grabs him. He'd be perfect for them, where his offense wouldn't matter, and it would give them the flexibility to improve their defense without spending much money. Then they could trade Draymond for practical pieces before his free agency hits, which presumably will be too expensive for them to pay if they are able to re-sign both Durant and Klay this summer.
Of course I filtered out the centers, because Thybulle never plays at center. Even filtering out centers left tons of college pfs, like David West etc etc. And none of them at 6-6 or less totalled more career blocks other than the ones I mentioned. Sure, that favors four year players, but the point remains that Thybulle IS someone who could be considered 'generational' or 'historic' etc, at least at the college levelQuote:
Originally Posted by ZeusWillJudge
And I don't feel comparing him to Danny Green to point out his shortcomings is such a negative. Whatever his shortcomings, Danny Green has been a plus defender and playoffs/title contending team starter for 8 straight years after 2 years of development after 4 years in college.
It's not some big strike against Thybulle if he doesn't get to that level. So many first rounders don't. Even with the earlier Spurs pick. That could be anywhere from what, 18-24? If a player from 18-24 never becomes the equal of Danny Green that's not a big surprise to me
One thing I will say is that I like his relatively low usage projection. Because at least he should play within his limits, unlike Kyle Anderson who thought he was point guard and wanted to have the ball all the time so he could dribble the air out of it. And then if he was open was too scared to shoot. I don't get those vibes from Thybulle, I think he'll shoot, pass or move, not just bobbling his giant skull up and down as the shot clock ticks away like Slo-Mo.
And Thybulle isn't the only guy I like, so if somehow Hunter or Clarke is there with the early pick and they take those guys with the risk of Thybulle being gone that's fine with me. I may have loved Jordan Bell 2 years ago but I also had White on my hope-for list with that pick, so I'm not married to Thybulle.
If Thybulle could shoot like Danny Green, we wouldn't be able to get him with the 20th pick.Quote:
Originally Posted by kobyz
If you want a 3 and D guy to dribble, you have problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by kobyz
Danny Green could shoot in college and wasn't taken until 46. 45 players drafted ahead on him, only 15 have played as long as him (I'm counting Blake who missed the first season and Rubio who was overseas but could have easily played). And Green was cut multiple times before he got it.
I can see the upside in Thybulle who spent his first 2 years under a catastrophic coach. Murray went through night and day development. I'm not surprised that other talented players, high lottery picks like Fultz and Chris's under Romar but without the Spurs guidance have been mental disasters
Switching to the zone is nice, turning the program around is nice. But I think there is still more to tap into. Not a star or anything, but a damn good rotation player who can win plays on defense and eventually not hurt the team on offense
:lol People want a "3 & D" guy but would also like him to be a good ball handler, passer, and rebounder.
Idiots.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. DeMurre
It's not as silly as you suggest. First, it's hard to be a legit good defender without being at least an adequate rebounder for your position. Danny Green has been that. As far as handling and passing go, you can't expect your role-player to have a star-level floor game, but in today's NBA, you need to have five "live" guys on the court. That means everyone needs to be able to move the ball or move themselves to keep the offense going. Danny's off-ball movement is really underappreciated on this forum, but even still, he usually failed to do enough during close-outs to counter teams overplaying him for the shot. The era of Bowen-esque three-and-D players is long gone. You've got to be able to play multiple positions on both ends now.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. DeMurre
Amen Brother.