Would you trade DeRozan for Nicholas Batum?

DeMar's obviously the more prolific and aggressive scorer-- that's one thing I liked about him this year after watching Danny Green & Kyle Anderson as the #2 and #3 guys last year in terms of minutes, both being so tentative. I was impressed that DeMar also had a career year in terms of APG and RPG.

Batum's the better 3 pt shooter and floor spacer. He's the better defender, & a willing passer.

If White, Murray, and Walker are ready to play a combined 70+ MPG next year, does it make sense? Would it clear space for them while improving the D and solving the SF position dilemma? Does a scoring distribution of White, Murray, Walker, & Batum all averaging 10-14ppg make the Spurs better?

At this point in their careers, I would say DeRozan has more upside than Batum.

2018–19 Charlotte 75 72 31.4 .450 .389 .865 5.2 3.3 .9 .6 9.3

2018–19 San Antonio77 77 34.9 .481 .156 .830 6.0 6.2 1.1 .5 21.2

DeRozan is more productive but less efficient. Both salaries are about the same.

I think it is a question of motivation, I think Batum just doesn't work hard enough.

DeRozan works hard... it's just not translating well enough come crunch time. But at least you get productive minutes!

I will give DeRozan the benefit of the doubt here in that he's been in the Spurs system for just one year.

Honestly, I think Batum could have been a much better player if he got drafted by the Spurs.

There's 434 other players in the NBA...Batum is probably the only one I'd say no.

No. What I wanted to do last season was give them Gasol/Mills for Batum

No way. Batum is even more over payed than Derozan for his production and if we get him, we'll get back a lot less in sum.

Not only is Batum terrible nowadays, but he's lazy and plays like he doesn't give a fuck anymore..

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Not only is Batum terrible nowadays, but he's lazy and plays like he doesn't give a fuck anymore..

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I agree with this.

We can complain about DeRozan's lack of basketball IQ, but we can't complain about his effort!

LMA is different, he at times doesn't put in the effort.

No. Batum used to be good (although advanced stats say his defense was always overrated). Now he's 30 going on about 38 and plays like he has one foot in a retirement home. Batum is a top 10 worst contract in the league. DeRozan is a bargain in comparison.

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Originally Posted by timvp

No. Batum used to be good (although advanced stats say his defense was always overrated). Now he's 30 going on about 38 and plays like he has one foot in a retirement home. Batum is a top 10 worst contract in the league. DeRozan is a bargain in comparison.

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I agree. Batum has already checked out. He's coasting. He actually wanted to be a Spur as late as when the Spurs signed Aldridge.

You just gotta find a team that wants to try to make the playoffs, similar to how the kings traded for Harrison Barnes at the trade deadline.

I dunno-- Charlotte is a hard franchise to play for, and Boris Diaw was considered an underachieving malcontent too, before he went to the Spurs...

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Originally Posted by RC_Drunkford

No. What I wanted to do last season was give them Gasol/Mills for Batum

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Jesus Christ, do you watch basketball?

NO

Na. 4 or 5 yrs back with Boris and Tony yer, but you know, time passes.

DD makes the allstar team if the Spurs had a chance to build a team around LMA and DD. Players like Batum will never be an allstar.

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Originally Posted by tbdog

DD makes the allstar team if the Spurs had a chance to build a team around LMA and DD. Players like Batum will never be an allstar.

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Derozan is a fake star. He only made all-star teams in the talent-starved East. He wasn't even close to sniffing an all-star spot this year. He'll most likely never make an all-star team again.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Derozan is a fake star. He only made all-star teams in the talent-starved East. He wasn't even close to sniffing an all-star spot this year. He'll most likely never make an all-star team again.

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You can be a fake AllStar, but you can’t be fake All NBA. That’s more exclusive, and not limited to your conference. He’s done that a couple of times.

Yes... Regardless of value I care about who makes the team better... Batum would make us a significantly better team than DDR would... Especially combined with Murray... How much does DDR have to fail for ppl to understand he is not that guy, and he isn't a good role player because his ego won't be able to take it and his game isn't made to be a role player because he can't shoot nor play defense

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Originally Posted by exstatic

You can be a fake AllStar, but you can’t be fake All NBA. That’s more exclusive, and not limited to your conference. He’s done that a couple of times.

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He played the majority of his games against crappy Eastern conference teams. Easy to pad your stats when your competition is that bad. First year in the Western Conference and he won't be an all-star or All NBA.

It would need major additions in picks for me, something like :

Derozan, #19 for Batum, #12, 2020 FRP (top 15 protected, with reducing protections afterwards)

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Originally Posted by duncan2k5

Yes... Regardless of value I care about who makes the team better... Batum would make us a significantly better team than DDR would... Especially combined with Murray... How much does DDR have to fail for ppl to understand he is not that guy, and he isn't a good role player because his ego won't be able to take it and his game isn't made to be a role player because he can't shoot nor play defense

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Are you against DDR because of his salary or his usage? Because if we replaced DDR with Batum, sorry would be about the same, but no way we would have made that playoffs with Batum instead.

Batum can probably be a really good role player but for that price is even crazier than what we are paying DDR.

At least DDR is a go to guy in the regular season. But he's not in the upper echelon like LeBron, Durant, Kyrie etc when it comes to delivering in crunch time.

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Originally Posted by EricB

Jesus Christ, do you watch basketball?

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Obviously yeah, do you understand what a salary cap is? Probably not

Batum is one of the worst NBA players and Spursfans wants to give one of their assets to get him?

:lmao

no. DD more upside but Batum smarter player. plausible if other variables. won't happen anyway.

something like kemba and batum for demar and patty?

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Originally Posted by HarlemHeat37

Not only is Batum terrible nowadays, but he's lazy and plays like he doesn't give a fuck anymore..

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To be fair, that was also the knock on Boris Diaw before he signed with the Spurs.

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Originally Posted by Philthemage

Are you against DDR because of his salary or his usage? Because if we replaced DDR with Batum, sorry would be about the same, but no way we would have made that playoffs with Batum instead.

Batum can probably be a really good role player but for that price is even crazier than what we are paying DDR.

At least DDR is a go to guy in the regular season. But he's not in the upper echelon like LeBron, Durant, Kyrie etc when it comes to delivering in crunch time.

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We made the playoffs without DDR... Batum would have been a great floor spacer and defensive player that we desperately need...

Mills, Bertans, and Beli for Batum.

Not straight up, but for something like Batum, Bridges, Parker, future lottery protected 1st, for DeRozan and Belinelli, I would in a second.

Even in his nearly comatose state of recent years, Batum is still easily a better fit than DeRozan. He'd allow Murray and White to actually play together and be the primary ball handlers/play makers (if they're as good or promising as the organization supposedly thinks and much of this board does, then take the training wheels off). He also could assist some in those areas.

If he's capable of being re-invigorated, this would likely be the place. If not, who cares? Allowing the young guards to spread their wings, adding another good prospect and another future pick and having a franchise legend finish up at home, are more than enough reasons . . . but this organization doesn't have the balls to do anything bold.

Yeah - I have to say, if CHA was willing to go all-in to make the playoffs and wanted someone like DeRozan? If they were willing give Batum + their first this year along with taking Mills + Beli for Bismack or MKG? I think I would do that.

Batum + DeRozan money is the same (both have player options after next season too). DeRozan is WAYYYYY better than Batum, but shaving Mills 13M off the books the following year while netting a lottery pick? That is the type of deal sa should explore if they were so inclined.

If they aren’t going to push super hard to get win-now players, then that type of deal should be explored.

Batum + Bismack + Pick 12 (lets say) for DeRozan + Mills + Beli.

Clears a logjam, gives SA some serious cap space for 20/21 and a serious chance to reload with picks 12, 19 and 29.

Beyond that, it would honestly make CHA a playoff team. Their coach obviously knows Beli + Mills. Kemba is a great fit with DeRozan as well.

Taking on Mills one year of money should not be a big deal for them; but would they give up pick 12? I think they would.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

Yeah - I have to say, if CHA was willing to go all-in to make the playoffs and wanted someone like DeRozan? If they were willing give Batum + their first this year along with taking Mills + Beli for Bismack or MKG? I think I would do that.

Batum + DeRozan money is the same (both have player options after next season too). DeRozan is WAYYYYY better than Batum, but shaving Mills 13M off the books the following year while netting a lottery pick? That is the type of deal sa should explore if they were so inclined.

If they aren’t going to push super hard to get win-now players, then that type of deal should be explored.

Batum + Bismack + Pick 12 (lets say) for DeRozan + Mills + Beli.

Clears a logjam, gives SA some serious cap space for 20/21 and a serious chance to reload with picks 12, 19 and 29.

Beyond that, it would honestly make CHA a playoff team. Their coach obviously knows Beli + Mills. Kemba is a great fit with DeRozan as well.

Taking on Mills one year of money should not be a big deal for them; but would they give up pick 12? I think they would.

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We both know Mills isn't going anywhere.

I do think the Hornets would be more inclined to give up 12 than Bridges and I'd be fine with that, since it would give the Spurs enough ammunition pick wise to chase Hunter . . . but that's not enough for taking Batum's albatross and not only giving them a (pseudo) star, but likely clinching Walker's re-signing. Spurs would need another quality asset and it's difficult to pinpoint what that would be or make the math work.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

We both know Mills isn't going anywhere.

I do think the Hornets would be more inclined to give up 12 than Bridges and I'd be fine with that, since it would give the Spurs enough ammunition pick wise to chase Hunter . . . but that's not enough for taking Batum's albatross and not only giving them a (pseudo) star, but likely clinching Walker's re-signing. Spurs would need another quality asset and it's difficult to pinpoint what that would be or make the math work.

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I think 12 is more than enough and if you put in MKG instead of Bismack I think that is fair enough compensation. Yes, I do think Batum’s deal sucks, but it’s just 2 more seasons. Beyond that, once he becomes an expiring he might be movable.

But beyond that, clearing out Beli/Mills while now having a rotation with clear minutes for Murray/White/Lonnie/Forbes is a big deal. Would SA be worse with Batum vs DeRozan? Absolutely. Could having Lonnie/White/Murray/Forbes instead of Beli/Mills make up for some of that? I think so.

Plus you get 3 first round picks and the future is more important than the gap between Batum and DeRozan for 2 years - especially since I think SA could STILL be a playoff team if that deal went down.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I think 12 is more than enough and if you put in MKG instead of Bismack I think that is fair enough compensation. Yes, I do think Batum’s deal sucks, but it’s just 2 more seasons. Beyond that, once he becomes an expiring he might be movable.

But beyond that, clearing out Beli/Mills while now having a rotation with clear minutes for Murray/White/Lonnie/Forbes is a big deal. Would SA be worse with Batum vs DeRozan? Absolutely. Could having Lonnie/White/Murray/Forbes instead of Beli/Mills make up for some of that? I think so.

Plus you get 3 first round picks and the future is more important than the gap between Batum and DeRozan for 2 years - especially since I think SA could STILL be a playoff team if that deal went down.

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Then you'd be as big a pushover as the Spurs.

Kidd-Gilchrist would be a horrific fit offensively, making him more albatross (only 1 year, granted) than asset.

I'd argue the Spurs would be as good or better currently because the pieces would fit so much better.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

Then you'd be as big a pushover as the Spurs.

Kidd-Gilchrist would be a horrific fit offensively, making him more albatross (only 1 year, granted) than asset.

I'd argue the Spurs would be as good or better currently because the pieces would fit so much better.

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Maybe - at least he’s a wing. But there are luxury tax concerns with both teams with possible variations of this type of deal. But I do think it should be explored.

Yes to trading DePression but not for Batum. Someone who can shoot 3 so LMA can own the perimeter.

Batum sucked badly past couple years but he shot 39% from 3.

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Originally Posted by TD 21

Not straight up, but for something like Batum, Bridges, Parker, future lottery protected 1st, for DeRozan and Belinelli, I would in a second.

Even in his nearly comatose state of recent years, Batum is still easily a better fit than DeRozan. He'd allow Murray and White to actually play together and be the primary ball handlers/play makers (if they're as good or promising as the organization supposedly thinks and much of this board does, then take the training wheels off). He also could assist some in those areas.

If he's capable of being re-invigorated, this would likely be the place. If not, who cares? Allowing the young guards to spread their wings, adding another good prospect and another future pick and having a franchise legend finish up at home, are more than enough reasons . . . but this organization doesn't have the balls to do anything bold.

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I wouldn't say Batum is better than DeRozan right now, but yeah he might be a better fit. Putting Batum at SF gives more guard minutes for White and Murray, which would mean three ball handlers, better defense, and more spacing. Batum seems to be in an identical place to Boris Diaw, who was viewed as washed up and in a serious statistical decline with Charlotte before going to the Spurs. I can't see him being physically done at age 30. It looks to me like more of a frustration and exasperation with the franchise, which Diaw also had.

whatever it takes to get kemba. dude should be our #1 target.

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Originally Posted by gambit1990

whatever it takes to get kemba. dude should be our #1 target.

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I just don’t know if CHA is willing to move on from Kemba? On one hand, if they are giving up on Kemba that would probably signal a rebuild and they would want the best draft picks (and other teams have better than SA). If they somehow wanted to move Kemba but try to still be relevant? Then maybe DeRozan would interest them but SA has White/Murray.

NO :wtf

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Derozan is a fake star. He only made all-star teams in the talent-starved East. He wasn't even close to sniffing an all-star spot this year. He'll most likely never make an all-star team again.

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Due to the team construction and injuries, the Spurs were to low of a seed for him to be considered. He was clearly outplaying LMA at the beginning of the season who made the allstar team.

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Originally Posted by duncan2k5

Yes... Regardless of value I care about who makes the team better... Batum would make us a significantly better team than DDR would... Especially combined with Murray... How much does DDR have to fail for ppl to understand he is not that guy, and he isn't a good role player because his ego won't be able to take it and his game isn't made to be a role player because he can't shoot nor play defense

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Have you watched Batum play in the last couple of years? He sucks.

I think you should apply for a job with the Suns front office. They could use another guy with the cajones to sign guys like Jimmer. You could help them land Batum to pair up with him. Sounds like a winning combination.

Lol. Is this a serous question?

Fuck. What is wrong with OP? Gonna ask if they should trade him for THJ next?

I wouldn't even trade Patty for Batum.

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Originally Posted by RC_Drunkford

Obviously yeah, do you understand what a salary cap is? Probably not

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Do you understand that that no one would’ve in their right mind done the trade you suggested? Gmafb

You guys think the Mills contract is bad, and want to trade for Batum?

The only deal I’d consider is taking him on for Mills+Beli while also upgrading to the 12th pick from 19. Maybe have to throw in a small sweetener.

NBA Rumors: Spurs Could Trade DeMar DeRozan, Lonnie Walker, And 2019 1st-Round Pick For Anthony Davis

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Fuck. What is wrong with OP? Gonna ask if they should trade him for THJ next?

I wouldn't even trade Patty for Batum.

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For a lottery pick and Batum while eating Mills salary? If you are trading for the player, then sure. But SA was a playoff team without DeRozan and Kawhi last year, would likely be without DeRozan next year and you get lottery pick to help reload.

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

I wouldn't say Batum is better than DeRozan right now, but yeah he might be a better fit. Putting Batum at SF gives more guard minutes for White and Murray, which would mean three ball handlers, better defense, and more spacing. Batum seems to be in an identical place to Boris Diaw, who was viewed as washed up and in a serious statistical decline with Charlotte before going to the Spurs. I can't see him being physically done at age 30. It looks to me like more of a frustration and exasperation with the franchise, which Diaw also had.

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All of these factors make the deal worth the gamble - especially the Diaw comparison.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

I just don’t know if CHA is willing to move on from Kemba? On one hand, if they are giving up on Kemba that would probably signal a rebuild and they would want the best draft picks (and other teams have better than SA). If they somehow wanted to move Kemba but try to still be relevant? Then maybe DeRozan would interest them but SA has White/Murray.

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If you get Kemba, I think it logically follows that you are also sending out one of DWhite/Dijon/LWIV.

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Originally Posted by Titi Parisien

NBA Rumors: Spurs Could Trade DeMar DeRozan, Lonnie Walker, And 2019 1st-Round Pick For Anthony Davis

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Haha. A rumor started by you?

Don't trade Walker. He'll be a beast soon, Pop just gotta play him

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Originally Posted by sasaint

If you get Kemba, I think it logically follows that you are also sending out one of DWhite/Dijon/LWIV.

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For sure - I’m saying I think Cha would value a pick more than White/DJ/Lonnie.

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Originally Posted by DPG21920

For sure - I’m saying I think Cha would value a pick more than White/DJ/Lonnie.

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Possibly. But I think Cha would jump at the opportunity to acquire either White or Dijon. If not, you still gotta put a package together to de-clutter the backcourt.

DeRozan's advanced stats for the playoffs were so bad, it's almost unimaginable. His OnCourt +/- per 100 poss. was -8.7. His on/off rating was -25.8. No other starter/major player in the playoffs even comes close in terms of negative results. There's a reason Ujiri traded him, and it's not because he's mean, or dumb, or confused. And this isn't an anomaly-- DeRozan has posted these kinds of results consistently. Scroll through the numbers for any playoff team, and you'll be hard pressed to find any player who had as negative an impact while on the floor as DeRozan. And his series went 7 games, meaning he should in theory have a statistical advantage over other players on losing teams whose series only went 5 or 6 games...

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2019.html

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

DeRozan's advanced stats for the playoffs were so bad, it's almost unimaginable. His OnCourt +/- per 100 poss. was -8.7. His on/off rating was -25.8. No other starter/major player in the playoffs even comes close in terms of negative results. There's a reason Ujiri traded him, and it's not because he's mean, or dumb, or confused. And this isn't an anomaly-- DeRozan has posted these kinds of results consistently. Scroll through the numbers for any playoff team, and you'll be hard pressed to find any player who had as negative an impact while on the floor as DeRozan. And his series went 7 games, meaning he should in theory have a statistical advantage over other players on losing teams whose series only went 5 or 6 games...

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2019.html

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I keep telling ppl dude is ass... We will never EVER win a ring with him... Trade him for literally anyone and a second round pick and we are instantly better

i take 1-2 rebuild years at the expense of getting rid of dd+lma+mills.... even if it involves absorbing shitty contracts...doesnt mean u have to play them players, just continue play the rookies, develop

Demar needs to get under control, just like Westbrook needs to. They both try to do too much and often press and cost their teams. At least Demar is making like 60% of what Russ is!

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

i take 1-2 rebuild years at the expense of getting rid of dd+lma+mills.... even if it involves absorbing shitty contracts...doesnt mean u have to play them players, just continue play the rookies, develop

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So you want to get rid of guys (all who will be off books in 1-2 years) but take on crappy contracts to get rid of them? Or is it about getting rid of them to tank?

There are some people here on spurstalk who really seem to dislike DeRozan personally-- I'm not one of those. He seems like a nice enough guy, and I respect his honesty about his depression issues. But when I look at the numbers, I can't help but see a player who is an impediment to a team trying to build/compete for a championship. For the great majority of his career, his teams have performed better with him off the floor than with him on. Glitches and anomalies exist in statistics, of course, but when a player so consistently shows himself through advanced stats to be a good-sized net negative for his team, it's hard to ignore:
https://www.basketball-reference.com...derozde01.html

I chose Batum as a comparison not because he's the ideal guy for this team, but because even as a break even type of player he'd probably improve team performance... losing DeRozan might be addition by subtraction. Plus the Hornets seem like the kind of team that would be more likely to be dazzled by his raw stats. Obviously, I'd rather trade for Paul George or Kevin Durant, but that ain't happening.

That’s a no go at this station for me. Sure, DDR struggles badly, but at least the guy plays his heart out and doesn’t just not give a fuck, unlike Batum. I feel like a lot of posters on here “hate” him, because they want him to succeed so bad. I mean, he seems to be a good dude that’s loyal(otherwise, TOR wouldn’t have loved him the way they do if he wasn’t). It’s just that he’s probably just not the type of guy you’d want to build your franchise around. Probably a 2nd or 3rd option. I honestly don’t care whether they let him go or resign/extend him, but if they somehow end up with a franchise player AND keep him, I’d be happy with that. Well, more like contented.

We want Demar to succeed but he won't. The only reason i would do this trade is if we tanking next season which i've always been an advocate for.

DeRozan is a good dude, just an average player, below average defender and absolutely useless off the ball while being overpaid. His contract is bad just like Mills

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

There are some people here on spurstalk who really seem to dislike DeRozan personally-- I'm not one of those. He seems like a nice enough guy, and I respect his honesty about his depression issues. But when I look at the numbers, I can't help but see a player who is an impediment to a team trying to build/compete for a championship. ...

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Can't argue with the sentiment. Batum or whoever, any way to send DDR someplace else looks like a good way to me. The sad thing is, he really does have talent.

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Originally Posted by Chinook

Fuck. What is wrong with OP? Gonna ask if they should trade him for THJ next?

I wouldn't even trade Patty for Batum.

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This x10000000. It’s like people haven’t watched Batum since 2014 :lmao

DDR is a great role player who was asked to be a superstar on toronto. he isn't moving the needle in any direction let alone the positive direction. i'd take batum for his spacing alone.

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Originally Posted by RC_Drunkford

DeRozan is a good dude, just an average player, below average defender and absolutely useless off the ball while being overpaid. His contract is bad just like Mills

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Average players don't make All NBA multiple times.

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Originally Posted by exstatic

Average players don't make All NBA multiple times.

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if he's a star then trade him to somebody who'd give you a lottery pick for him. Draft Hachimura and sign Bogdanovic and Harris with the cap space that opened up.

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Originally Posted by SpursBig3s

This x10000000. It’s like people haven’t watched Batum since 2014

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Batum's in the exact same position that Boris Diaw was in before going to the Spurs-- Declining stats for a couple of years, obviously not happy playing there... Again, read the posts. I'm not saying Batum is a great player. I'm saying DeRozan, despite his numbers, is a net negative. Look at the on/off court numbers for the playoffs. It's not really even debatable. His impact on the court was by far the worst of any significant starter on any playoff team-- and that was in a 7 game series where he had the statistical edge with 3 team wins. And if you look at his past, he has had a negative effect on his teams in all six years of playoff appearances.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

Batum's in the exact same position that Boris Diaw was in before going to the Spurs-- Declining stats for a couple of years, obviously not happy playing there... Again, read the posts. I'm not saying Batum is a great player. I'm saying DeRozan, despite his numbers, is a net negative. Look at the on/off court numbers for the playoffs. It's not really even debatable. His impact on the court was by far the worst of any significant starter on any playoff team-- and that was in a 7 game series where he had the statistical edge with 3 team wins. And if you look at his past, he has had a negative effect on his teams in all six years of playoff appearances.

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Hmmm... I will wait to see if DeRozan can get his act together over the summer. If he's the same guy next year, then I would trade him for a contract as bad as Batum's.

He's about to turn 30. He is who he is as a basketball player.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

Batum's in the exact same position that Boris Diaw was in before going to the Spurs-- Declining stats for a couple of years, obviously not happy playing there... Again, read the posts. I'm not saying Batum is a great player. I'm saying DeRozan, despite his numbers, is a net negative. Look at the on/off court numbers for the playoffs. It's not really even debatable. His impact on the court was by far the worst of any significant starter on any playoff team-- and that was in a 7 game series where he had the statistical edge with 3 team wins. And if you look at his past, he has had a negative effect on his teams in all six years of playoff appearances.

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DeRozan may not show for the playoffs, but Batum doesn't even show for the RS anymore. When we signed Boris, it was for a minimum deal to end a season. Subsequent contracts were for 5 years, and totaled about $30M. Nic is owed $52M for just the next two seasons. You cannot pay a 10 point per game scorer $26M per year and keep even a halfway decent cap sheet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by exstatic

DeRozan may not show for the playoffs, but Batum doesn't even show for the RS anymore. When we signed Boris, it was for a minimum deal to end a season. Subsequent contracts were for 5 years, and totaled about $30M. Nic is owed $52M for just the next two seasons. You cannot pay a 10 point per game scorer $26M per year and keep even a halfway decent cap sheet.

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I get that, but again it's a matter of losing DeRozan and that's not possible without taking something back. Batum is overpaid to be sure, but top players will be making $40-45mil in the coming seasons, and Batum will make about $25mil.

Do you think DeRozan's consistent net negative impact is a statistical error? Or is it a good representation of his actual impact?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

DeRozan's advanced stats for the playoffs were so bad, it's almost unimaginable. His OnCourt +/- per 100 poss. was -8.7. His on/off rating was -25.8. No other starter/major player in the playoffs even comes close in terms of negative results. There's a reason Ujiri traded him, and it's not because he's mean, or dumb, or confused. And this isn't an anomaly-- DeRozan has posted these kinds of results consistently. Scroll through the numbers for any playoff team, and you'll be hard pressed to find any player who had as negative an impact while on the floor as DeRozan. And his series went 7 games, meaning he should in theory have a statistical advantage over other players on losing teams whose series only went 5 or 6 games...

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../SAS/2019.html

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The thing is, his entire career he's been asked to be a #1 or at the very least a 1a/1b guy alongside two other guys in Lowry+Aldridge that are fake stars in their own right. My guess is he wouldn't be a net negative guy if he was a #2 or #3. If you plugged in Batum into the same exact role, he'd be an even bigger net negative. He's only a break even player as a role player. Not an apples to apples comparison, imo.

I'm not opposed to trading DeRozan though. We need a better #1, period.

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Originally Posted by R. DeMurre

I get that, but again it's a matter of losing DeRozan and that's not possible without taking something back. Batum is overpaid to be sure, but top players will be making $40-45mil in the coming seasons, and Batum will make about $25mil.

Do you think DeRozan's consistent net negative impact is a statistical error? Or is it a good representation of his actual impact?

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We have a fundamental disagreement. With Batum this year, we don't make the playoffs. If that's your goal, then I get where you're coming from, but disagree. You can't just plug in 9/5/3 and expect it to replace 21/6/6. Yes. DDR is a regular season player, but he's a damn good one, and carried us for long stretches this year.

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Originally Posted by exstatic

We have a fundamental disagreement. With Batum this year, we don't make the playoffs. If that's your goal, then I get where you're coming from, but disagree. You can't just plug in 9/5/3 and expect it to replace 21/6/6. Yes. DDR is a regular season player, but he's a damn good one, and carried us for long stretches this year.

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Why would we not make the playoffs with Batum? I think we would be even better... Better defense and spacing... We made the playoffs last year without DDR... matter of fact, EVERY team performs better when he isn't on the court... We made the playoffs this year in spite of DDR... not because of him

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Originally Posted by FkLA

The thing is, his entire career he's been asked to be a #1 or at the very least a 1a/1b guy alongside two other guys in Lowry+Aldridge that are fake stars in their own right. My guess is he wouldn't be a net negative guy if he was a #2 or #3. If you plugged in Batum into the same exact role, he'd be an even bigger net negative. He's only a break even player as a role player. Not an apples to apples comparison, imo.

I'm not opposed to trading DeRozan though. We need a better #1, period.

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Nah, Derozan has no second/third option skills. He can't play offball, defend, or shoot the three ball. That's why he's such a flawed(and useless) player. He needs the ball in his hands to score his 20 midrange points every game. Derozan, like Carmelo, is a 90s throwback that has no place in the modern NBA. Houston made the right choice in cutting Carmelo. Because the Spurs are so backwards and behind the times, they will probably extend Defrozen.

I saw somebody mention it in another thread, but Derozan as a 6th man is the only place you can probably play him without hurting your team. He can iso as much as he likes against opposing benches. Derozan himself is just a Lou Williams type player that received delusions of grandeur in Toronto so a bench role makes the most sense. He's not fit to be a 1st option or even a sidekick. The only problem here is that he's being paid 1st option type money. Combined with the fact that Spurs are also paying Mills a lot, that'd be $40 million tied up around two bench players...not a good look.

As of now, DDR has a lot more market value than Batum. He's been an all star most of his seasons (Batum never), makes more than double the points, is and has quite always been a first option (Batum is not) and is also younger than Batum...and, more than all, this season he has increased his value by numbers and stats, while Batum has decreased his value to the bottom of his career stats.
The point is that for Charlotte DDR could be an ideal fit if Kemba decide to stay with them...because, in a win now perspective, could give them the second offensive weapon they really need to have a play off chance.
So, in few words, Charlotte could be the ideal trade partner...in the sense that they could (and actually should) give us the most they could for having DDR services...and the fact that Borrego is still running them is a benefit for us in the sense of valuing our other players...

So a trade like DDR + Belinelli + Metu for Batum + 12 (2019) draft pick + Bridges + Marvin Williams (if he opts in) could be possible...and probably good for both teams.

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Originally Posted by venitian navigator

As of now, DDR has a lot more market value than Batum. He's been an all star most of his seasons (Batum never), makes more than double the points, is and has quite always been a first option (Batum is not) and is also younger than Batum...and, more than all, this season he has increased his value by numbers and stats, while Batum has decreased his value to the bottom of his career stats.
The point is that for Charlotte DDR could be an ideal fit if Kemba decide to stay with them...because, in a win now perspective, could give them the second offensive weapon they really need to have a play off chance.
So, in few words, Charlotte could be the ideal trade partner...in the sense that they could (and actually should) give us the most they could for having DDR services...and the fact that Borrego is still running them is a benefit for us in the sense of valuing our other players...

So a trade like DDR + Belinelli + Metu for Batum + 12 (2019) draft pick + Bridges + Marvin Williams (if he opts in) could be possible...and probably good for both teams.

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Don't feed me hopes and dreams, bro... We know this FO will give DDR an extension... Both him and LMA will retire as spurs... Let's be prepared for seven more years of first round exits and second round ceilings

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Originally Posted by exstatic

We have a fundamental disagreement. With Batum this year, we don't make the playoffs. If that's your goal, then I get where you're coming from, but disagree. You can't just plug in 9/5/3 and expect it to replace 21/6/6. Yes. DDR is a regular season player, but he's a damn good one, and carried us for long stretches this year.

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I get where you're coming from, but I don't think the point replacement comes from Batum-- it comes from a spaced out floor, opening up driving lanes for penetration, and from making Aldridge much harder to double. 9ppg is Batum's worst possible showing. I'd say 12 ppg is a reasonably expectation. That means you need 9 points total from White, Aldridge, Gay, Poeltl, Forbes, Mills, Bertans, etc. to make up DeRozan's total, while having a better defense. I think that's doable.

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