The Left Case Against Supporting Joe Biden in the General Election

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Originally Posted by Reck

This is just wrong and in bad faith.

You dont come to the table with threats like we'll burn shit if you dont concede this and that. That's not how you get what you want done.

If Biden wins I dont think he'll shut Bernie out. The door is already open and a relationship already exists there.

I can only hope we get the senate. If we somehow manage to flip it, I dont think you'll see a lot of hand wringing on passing substantive common sense legislation.

Since the environment is the easiest one and an issue both Bernie and Biden are on page one on, I'd say start there.

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Sorry but this makes no sense. On!gger made it pretty clear that unless there's pressure from the left, an establishment Democrat is going to drift to the right and provide Wall Street with gold plated socialism while mainstreet is forced to recover with bootstrap capitalism.

The first piece of common sense legislation is another COVID relief package that gets financed by hiking taxes on the rich. If Biden doesn't want to do that then he's not a real Democrat.

He's still getting my vote but if his first term is 1/10th as pathetic as Obama's first term was neither he nor any establishment candidate who gets picked as his replacement gets my vote in 2024.

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Originally Posted by DMX7

If Joe Biden wins the election, the democrats will have won 7 of the last 8 popular votes in presidential elections.

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This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.

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It's really the republican party that's on its way to irrelevance in national elections if it doesn't reverse course to more moderate candidates. If Trump loses and the lesson learned is that the GOP needs an even further right wing candidate, then I think you'll see the GOP possibly go the way of the Whig Party.

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The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.
Biden is by far the most conservative Democratic candidate, and his campaign has focused more on aesthetics (restoring honor) than material and structural changes to the status quo.
Centrism enables and emboldens the right as well as suppresses the vote as people feel there is nothing material at stake.

Biden wouldn't even adopt economic populism to fight Trump, even though, for example, public approval for a national health care plan has never been higher.
Populist policies remain on the table for someone to pick up, and with the right-wing neoliberal Dems as "resistence" that is not a comforting prospect.

Delete dubble Post

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.



The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.
Biden is by far the most conservative Democratic candidate, and his campaign has focused more on aesthetics (restoring honor) than material and structural changes to the status quo.
Centrism enables and emboldens the right as well as suppresses the vote as people feel there is nothing material at stake.

Biden wouldn't even adopt economic populism to fight Trump, even though, for example, public approval for a national health care plan has never been higher.
Populist policies remain on the table for someone to pick up, and with the right-wing neoliberal Dems as "resistence" that is not a comforting prospect.

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I agree with you on all of this but unfortunately a scenario where Trump picks RBG’s replacement is a bigger shit sandwich than what you’re describing. Any national healthcare plan passed after 2024 wouldn’t survive the courts if Neil Gorsuch is the deciding vote (rest assured that if 2nd term Trump is picking a SCOTUS nominee, it’s going to be someone further to the right than even Uncle Thomas or Alito, SCOTUS would have 3 liberals, 4 radical conservatives who would create whatever justification needed to strike down left wing legislation and 2 hardline conservatives in Gorsuch and Roberts who just happen to have more integrity than the other conservatives).

Not to mention Uncle Thomas probably steps down during Trump’s 2nd term, so he’d pick another radical and they’d have 6 young far right judges controlling our courts. Do you really think having a SCOTUS for the next 2 decades that has 4 Trump appointees on it is something we can afford?

George W Bush sucked but pretty sure he would have deferred to experts on a pandemic instead of just throwing gut bullshit out and amplifying COVID conspiracy theories.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

The first piece of common sense legislation is another COVID relief package that gets financed by hiking taxes on the rich. If Biden doesn't want to do that then he's not a real Democrat.

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That sounds good, except that relief packages are not funded by taxes, although it may be politically expedient to portray them as such. Biden is a deficit hawk (which means he is either ignorant or pretending to be ignorant of the operational reality of government spending). His record on wanting to axe SS is crystal clear.
The moment when Dems abandon austerity will be when we will know they are real Democrats (in the FDR sense).

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

George W Bush sucked but pretty sure he would have deferred to experts on a pandemic instead of just throwing gut bullshit out and amplifying COVID conspiracy theories.

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True, but the way he handled Katrina tells me he would have procrastinated as badly as Trump did. At that point you’re right tho that he would have said to the experts hey I fucked up how do we handle this appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

I agree with you on all of this but unfortunately a scenario where Trump picks RBG’s replacement is a bigger shit sandwich than what you’re describing. Any national healthcare plan passed after 2024 wouldn’t survive the courts if Neil Gorsuch is the deciding vote (rest assured that if 2nd term Trump is picking a SCOTUS nominee, it’s going to be someone further to the right than even Uncle Thomas or Alito, SCOTUS would have 3 liberals, 4 radical conservatives who would create whatever justification needed to strike down left wing legislation and 2 hardline conservatives in Gorsuch and Roberts who just happen to have more integrity than the other conservatives).

Not to mention Uncle Thomas probably steps down during Trump’s 2nd term, so he’d pick another radical and they’d have 6 young far right judges controlling our courts. Do you really think having a SCOTUS for the next 2 decades that has 4 Trump appointees on it is something we can afford?

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Biden's record in Supreme court matters isn't encouraging (hit man for Clarence Thomas). A so-called moderate appointment is the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

Biden's record in Supreme court matters isn't encouraging (hit man for Clarence Thomas). A so-called moderate appointment is the ceiling.

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Biden handled the Anita Hill matter horribly but he ultimately voted against Uncle Thomas. Also voted against Alito and was even one of the 22 senators to vote against Roberts. Of all the Biden criticisms I agree with, this isn’t one of them.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

True, but the way he handled Katrina tells me he would have procrastinated as badly as Trump did. At that point you’re right tho that he would have said to the experts hey I fucked him how do we handle this appropriately.

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Nah, Bush was the biggest pandemic hawk in presidential history. I wouldn't have minded his being made COVID czar tbh. Fuck him for Iraq and Katrina but he did actually give a shit about the United States on the whole.

Op is either a Russian troll or a quixotic Liberal. Petty ridiculous take tbh.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

Biden handled the Anita Hill matter horribly but he ultimately voted against Uncle Thomas. Also voted against Alito and was even one of the 22 senators to vote against Roberts. Of all the Biden criticisms I agree with, this isn’t one of them.

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Good point. Trump's federal judge appointments have been more significant IMO than his supreme court appointments, and don't get talked about enough. In both areas, I don't see Biden as helping much - even more so since super-cop Harris will take the helm when Biden joins the celestial choir. I believe we're at a moment that requires major structural change and that's not happening with Biden or Trump.

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Originally Posted by Th'Pusher

Op is either a Russian troll or a quixotic Liberal. Petty ridiculous take tbh.

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Muh Russia

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

Good point. Trump's federal judge appointments have been more significant IMO than his supreme court appointments, and don't get talked about enough. In both areas, I don't see Biden as helping much - even more so since super-cop Harris will take the helm when Biden joins the celestial choir. I believe we're at a moment that requires major structural change and that's not happening with Biden or Trump.

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So just give it to Trump.

Makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

Good point. Trump's federal judge appointments have been more significant IMO than his supreme court appointments, and don't get talked about enough. In both areas, I don't see Biden as helping much - even more so since super-cop Harris will take the helm when Biden joins the celestial choir. I believe we're at a moment that requires major structural change and that's not happening with Biden or Trump.

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I don’t see Biden governing very differently than Obama did, and Obama did just fine on his Supreme Court picks. Biden will likely pick a left leaning woman to replace RBG.

SR21 made the best point in this thread imo. You’re more likely to see a populist Democrat after 4 years of Biden tripping over his own dick while AOC says “I told you so” than you are after 4 more years of Trump where the climate is getting a Democrat elected at all costs. Even with more name recognition infrastructure and funding Bernie did worse in 2020 than he did in 2016. Some of that was Hillary being a shitty candidate but a lot of it was also people being scared of running someone farther to the left against an incumbent they hate.

the accelerationist left is moronic. egging on fascism, tbh.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

This is meaningful only if you view elections as sports - yay, my team won. Both parties are neoliberal and imperialist at their core.



The Democrats answer to Trump was to pull right.

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Hillary is almost a carbon copy of Biden politically, but Biden simply has less baggage and is perceived as more empathetic and authentic (whether that’s fair or not).

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

IMO there's no good reason to vote for Trump over Biden, but if Biden pulls an Obama by immediately moving to the right and cramming austerity down our throats, there needs to be an aggressive primary campaign in 2024 for a real Democrat.

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you do realize that requires winning both houses of Congress, and actually giving them cover to make the changes you claim to want, right?

Austerity was forced because the left didn’t show up in 2010, and allowed the birther led tea party to gain control.

A progressive president means nothing if they can’t pass any legislation.

now I’m sure you will lament corporate Dems and the dnc next. But if the progressive wing continues to fail to show up to vote in every election, federal state and local, they have no claim to the indignation so many social media martyrdom try use to absolve themselves of responsibility.

the reality is, they’ve appointed a shitload of judges up and down the federal registry, many whose only qualifications are their activist bent.

Civil rights and reproductive rights are all on the chopping block. A generational majority on the Supreme Court, and multigenerational majorities up and down, make that a real and genuine possibility.

this election isn’t about bold progressive ideas, it’s about stopping the continued destruction of what was America

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

No fan of Trump, but I fail to see how he is an existential threat. I think this line is trotted out by Liberals (and their neo-con allies) as a cover for their policy weaknesses. The Liberal objections to Trump are aesthetic. The Democrats didn't mention impeachment once during their convention - even though Trump's conduct was supposedly a threat to our constitutional order not so long ago. Everyone knows their pearl-clutching is fake.
There are reasonable cases to be made against the re-election of Trump- the sky is falling doesn't seem to be convincing anyone besides the true believers.
The fact that polls are so close at the moment is astonishing.

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do you have any friends?

Are any of those friends women? Black? Latino? Gay Lesbian our Trans?

The fact that you’re trying to rationalize the systematic stripping away of their rights, speaks far far more to what a piece of garbage you truly are, than any clever point you think you might be making

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Muh Russia

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you are still weak minded, frightened, cowardly, and Incredibly insecure knowing you’re all of those things.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

Sorry but this makes no sense. On!gger made it pretty clear that unless there's pressure from the left, an establishment Democrat is going to drift to the right and provide Wall Street with gold plated socialism while mainstreet is forced to recover with bootstrap capitalism.

The first piece of common sense legislation is another COVID relief package that gets financed by hiking taxes on the rich. If Biden doesn't want to do that then he's not a real Democrat.

He's still getting my vote but if his first term is 1/10th as pathetic as Obama's first term was neither he nor any establishment candidate who gets picked as his replacement gets my vote in 2024.

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there’s an incredible amount of missing context and historical revision you’re forwarding here

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Originally Posted by Bogie

you do realize that requires winning both houses of Congress, and actually giving them cover to make the changes you claim to want, right?

Austerity was forced because the left didn’t show up in 2010, and allowed the birther led tea party to gain control.

A progressive president means nothing if they can’t pass any legislation.

now I’m sure you will lament corporate Dems and the dnc next. But if the progressive wing continues to fail to show up to vote in every election, federal state and local, they have no claim to the indignation so many social media martyrdom try use to absolve themselves of responsibility.

the reality is, they’ve appointed a shitload of judges up and down the federal registry, many whose only qualifications are their activist bent.

Civil rights and reproductive rights are all on the chopping block. A generational majority on the Supreme Court, and multigenerational majorities up and down, make that a real and genuine possibility.

this election isn’t about bold progressive ideas, it’s about stopping the continued destruction of what was America

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How do you explain the first two years before 2010 midterms? Obama had a huge house majority and 59 senators, he was just too much of a pussy to blow the filibuster up when McConnell was playing hardball, and deep down he knew his corporate sponsors didn’t want a real stimulus bill or for him to change the status quo too much. That’s what the entire Pelosi/Schumer/Clinton Democratic Party has been about for the last 30 years, preserving the status quo and never seeking reform that might upset their corporate sponsors.

The bad midterm turnout has to do with the fact the Democratic Party has no ideals it stands for beyond beating Republicans. That’s why midterm turnout is great when there is a Republican in the White House (see 2006 and 2018) but when it’s a Dem in the White House they regularly give up seats. There’s no progressive turnout because the Democratic Party actively tries to suppress support for progressive candidates (case and point, the Massachusetts Democratic Party helping college students orchestrate a hit piece on Alex Morse that would stoke homophobic stereotypes).

I really don’t care about civil rights when black people cant even bother to show up to vote tbh. It doesn’t affect me, I’d rather focus on things like healthcare. If black people want reform they should show up and vote, we wouldn’t have Trump as president if they voted in 2016. When they do show up to vote they should also maybe look for a candidate who isn’t a former pro segregation Delaware Dixiecrat.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

I really don’t care about civil rights when black people cant even bother to show up to vote tbh. It doesn’t affect me, I’d rather focus on things like healthcare. If black people want reform they should show up and vote, we wouldn’t have Trump as president if they voted in 2016.

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this is literally the caricature that candace owens and co create about the plantation democrats, tbh

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

IMO there's no good reason to vote for Trump over Biden, but if Biden pulls an Obama by immediately moving to the right and cramming austerity down our throats, there needs to be an aggressive primary campaign in 2024 for a real Democrat.

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Of course he'll move right after getting elected. He wouldn't be a democratic president if he didn't.


Country will continue to slide further and further to the right and there's nothing we can do about it.

Chapo puts it in the best of terms when they say that he'll constantly remind you of how cool things used to be, where Trump is just in denial about everything and truly believes the shit coming out of his mouth. Biden's a grifter

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

this is literally the caricature that candace owens and co create about the plantation democrats, tbh

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Is anything I said about black people tripping over their own dick on the way to the ballot box wrong, or was that just a Candace Owens ad hominem?