The Left Case Against Supporting Joe Biden in the General Election

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Originally Posted by Reck

Why did you edit the post? It was solid.

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The information I quoted was wrong (misread a graph), which mostly invalidated the argument I was making about 18-30 showing up in such low numbers that information would have indicated in the primaries for Bernie.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

The information I quoted was wrong (misread a graph), which mostly invalidated the argument I was making about 18-30 showing up in ridiculously low numbers in the primaries for Bernie.

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Yeah the low percentage for <30 voters in this primary was largely due to the fact there were simply less of them. A lot of millennials have turned 30 since 2016 and there aren’t anywhere near as many gen Z voters.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

You keep repeating JUST SHOW UP AND VOTE without addressing anything I'm actually saying. Like it or not, yelling at BernieBros to JUST VOTE FOR WHATEVER MILQUETOAST CLOWN WE CRAM DOWN YOUR THROAT isn't ever going to work. It's just going to piss BernieBros off more. At some point the burden rests on the party to rally its base, not on the base to rally itself.

Keep vote shaming though, it worked really well in 2016.

:lmao implying Jim Crow Joe wants is pushing for 85% of what BernieBros want. His campaign staffer already tipped his hand when he said the Trump tax cuts are going to make it so Biden isn't going to be able to do much. It has all the makings of another 2009.

Btw, one of the reasons Democrats lose so badly with white males is the attitude :cry everyone but white males has it so tough, you should vote Democrat for them :cry. There are plenty of white males in this country who are poor, sick, unemployed etc. They vote Republican because of the constant white male shaming from Democrats.

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don't forget the latinos that vote R because :cry mah abortion :cry even though the supreme court has been dominated by the Republican party for decades and when the tiebreaker left, his replacement only got the job by promising to uphold :cry mah abortion :cry

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Originally Posted by Trainwreck2100

don't forget the latinos that vote R because :cry mah abortion :cry even though the supreme court has been dominated by the Republican party for decades and when the tiebreaker left, his replacement only got the job by promising to uphold :cry mah abortion :cry

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Or worse, the Cubans who get disproportionate attention because of the electoral college and vote R because of :cry muh Castro :cry even though the Republicans are the party that want to fix elections and have totalitarian rule.

But yeah I think SCOTUS only has two justices who would overturn Roe v Wade. All the stories from this session were that Kavanaugh wanted to avoid ruling on abortion related issues, and Gorsuch strikes me as someone who’s going to be awful on things like Citizens United but will otherwise be socially liberal. People thinking Roe v Wade getting overturned is even a possibility are delusional.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

Or worse, the Cubans who get disproportionate attention because of the electoral college and vote R because of :cry muh Castro :cry even though the Republicans are the party that want to fix elections and have totalitarian rule.

But yeah I think SCOTUS only has two justices who would overturn Roe v Wade. All the stories from this session were that Kavanaugh wanted to avoid ruling on abortion related issues, and Gorsuch strikes me as someone who’s going to be awful on things like Citizens United but will otherwise be socially liberal. People thinking Roe v Wade getting overturned is even a possibility are delusional.

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don't get your hopes up Gorsuch is an originalist, another originalist that served on the court, Antonin Scalia. He upholds old laws and agreements due to precedent so that goes against what the Republicans want because they keep trying to overturn shit, but any new legislations I see him ruling against

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Originally Posted by Trainwreck2100

don't get your hopes up Gorsuch is an originalist, another originalist that served on the court, Antonin Scalia. He upholds old laws and agreements due to precedent so that goes against what the Republicans want because they keep trying to overturn shit, but any new legislations I see him ruling against

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Yeah I don’t have my hopes up at all, I was only speaking to Roe v Wade. I fully expect Gorsuch to rule in favor of corporations and rich people whenever possible.

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Who are the non-voters? -->>
One of the most comprehensive surveys of nonvoters was published by Pew Research Center on August 9, 2018.
Nonvoters were more likely to be younger, less educated, less affluent and nonwhite.

The Pew data on this issue is stark. Almost half of nonvoters in the 2016 presidential election were nonwhite, even though they compose only one-fourth of the voting population. Even more extreme is the data on class: More than half of nonvoters — 56% — are quite poor, making less than $30,000, even though that income group constitutes just over one-fourth of the voting population. The people who choose to vote are disproportionately privileged; those who are nonprivileged choose disproportionately not to vote.

To deny agency to poorer and nonwhite nonvoters, it is sometimes claimed that voter suppression efforts — rather than a cognizant and rational choice — is the primary factor explaining the behavior of poor and nonwhite nonvoters. That is also false.

A separate Pew survey, in 2017, of people who are not registered to vote found exactly the opposite: that people who refrain from participating in the electoral process largely do so because they are dissatisfied with the choices or believe voting will not change their lives.

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"No change" Biden is a voter-suppression machine.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

"No change" Biden is a voter-suppression machine.

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meanwhile the other option is trying to literally suppress voters through the legal system

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

"No change" Biden is a voter-suppression machine.

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People actually believe (through experience) that the amount of trouble it takes to vote is never countered by the benefits of voting. Regardless who wins, their lives are basically the same. The same cannot be said for political "fans" - those people who feel they are part of their political party and treat elections like a sporting event.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

Or worse, the Cubans who get disproportionate attention because of the electoral college and vote R because of :cry muh Castro :cry even though the Republicans are the party that want to fix elections and have totalitarian rule.

But yeah I think SCOTUS only has two justices who would overturn Roe v Wade. All the stories from this session were that Kavanaugh wanted to avoid ruling on abortion related issues, and Gorsuch strikes me as someone who’s going to be awful on things like Citizens United but will otherwise be socially liberal. People thinking Roe v Wade getting overturned is even a possibility are delusional.

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Honestly, Cubans vote (R) because they're the only latino demographic I know of that gets free green cards, and are not demonized as the latino rapists and criminals... You can thank St Ronnie for det one.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

How am I culpable exactly? You keep voter shaming me without addressing anything I’m saying.

You have a deep resentment for BernieBros and don’t even know why :lol

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Of course I’m addressing what you’re saying. You just refuse to listen.

you’re saying kiss our ass, and do what we want, but we’re not going to show up to vote to give you cover to make the essential changes.

then we will sit back and blame you for us not voting.

this is the same shit the right has done to the government the last 40 years to ensure it no longer works the way it’s supposed to. Starve it intentionally. then when it doesn’t work the way it was designed, say it’s the fault of the apparatus.

This is exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Bogie

Of course I’m addressing what you’re saying. You just refuse to listen.

you’re saying kiss our ass, and do what we want, but we’re not going to show up to vote to give you cover to make the essential changes.

then we will sit back and blame you for us not voting.

this is the same shit the right has done to the government the last 40 years to ensure it no longer works the way it’s supposed to. Starve it intentionally. then when it doesn’t work the way it was designed, say it’s the fault of the apparatus.

This is exactly that.

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When did I say we're not going to show up and vote? I've repeatedly said I'm voting for Biden and that any BernieBro who isn't voting for Biden is insane, but I've also said vote shaming doesn't work.

Again, you're not arguing with anything I'm actually saying.

You act like voters owe their vote to whichever politician they might have the most marginal agreements with, they don't. If Biden wants the more than 100 million Americans who don't vote in elections to actually vote, he needs to give them a reason to.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

When did I say we're not going to show up and vote? I've repeatedly said I'm voting for Biden and that any BernieBro who isn't voting for Biden is insane, but I've also said vote shaming doesn't work.

Again, you're not arguing with anything I'm actually saying.

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what I’m saying is that if you don’t want milquetoast candidates, then you have to make your voice loud enough to get them.

you is metaphorical of course. But denying the lack of participation by the progs is disingenuous at best.

you’re arguing that the Dems should nominate people “you” want. I’m saying “you” haven’t ever shown up to vote on a consistent enough basis, historically, to have a bigger say than the centrists who do vote.

But you know what else doesn’t work? People who haven’t participated consistently, demanding ideological purity, loudly threatening to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. Then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility

It’s like people calling themselves libertarian because they learned a big word, yet vote straight r every year. You see it with people you know, everywhere. granted this place isn’t nuanced enough that any of the pretenders claim anything but undying loyalty to the party that hates they’re scared of, but I’m sure you have more thoughtful friends that still attempt to provide that illusion.

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Originally Posted by Bogie

what I’m saying is that if you don’t want milquetoast candidates, then you have to make your voice loud enough to get them.

you is metaphorical of course. But denying the lack of participation by the progs is disingenuous at best.

you’re arguing that the Dems should nominate people “you” want. I’m saying “you” haven’t ever shown up to vote on a consistent enough basis, historically, to have a bigger say than the centrists who do vote.

But you know what else doesn’t work? People who haven’t participated consistently, demanding ideological purity, loudly threatening to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. Then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility

It’s like people calling themselves libertarian because they learned a big word, yet vote straight r every year. You see it with people you know, everywhere. granted this place isn’t nuanced enough that any of the pretenders claim anything but undying loyalty to the party that hates they’re scared of, but I’m sure you have more thoughtful friends that still attempt to provide that illusion.

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I've found that since 2016, the "I'm a libertarian but just happen to like the Republican candidate this year and every other year" crowd isn't as vocal (this place used to be filled with them when Obama was president). Their blind love for Trump has caused them to subconsciously drop the libertarian honest broker shtick. I've always found them to be insufferable people though :lol

Here's where we disagree - there's no evidence that suggests most voting Democrats are as centrist as Biden is. The data shows Democratic voters are predominantly people who aren't raging BernieBros and are thus pragmatic enough to show up and vote but want policies materially to the left of where the Democratic Party currently sits. For example, 89% of Democrats want Medicare for all, I sincerely doubt it's the other 11% that make up the electorate. Nevertheless, the DNC has fought harder against a M4A platform than it did against Trump's tax cuts. There's no data to support the notion that the Democratic Party is simply just catering to its centrist electorate. Even Democrats who call themselves moderates want policies further to the left of Biden. Point being, if it was as simple as people who support M4A showing up and voting, the Democratic Party wouldn't be as hostile to it as it currently is. It's only natural for some progressives to think that if happily voting for whoever the Democrat is hasn't gotten people what they want, then making demands and saying their vote is conditional is the next step.

I also don't deny the BernieBros who sat at home bear responsibility for Trump, but my point isn't about who is or isn't responsible. They're never going to vote because people shame them and tell them they're responsible. Like it or not the Democratic Party is going to need to win their support if it wants their vote.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

Is anything I said about black people tripping over their own dick on the way to the ballot box wrong, or was that just a Candace Owens ad hominem?

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RE: Candace Owens; does anyone know of any feel-good stories about any beneficiary of any significant funding/donations from the BLM non-profit?

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Originally Posted by Bogie

what I’m saying is that if you don’t want milquetoast candidates, then you have to make your voice loud enough to get them.

you is metaphorical of course. But denying the lack of participation by the progs is disingenuous at best.

you’re arguing that the Dems should nominate people “you” want. I’m saying “you” haven’t ever shown up to vote on a consistent enough basis, historically, to have a bigger say than the centrists who do vote.

But you know what else doesn’t work? People who haven’t participated consistently, demanding ideological purity, loudly threatening to take their ball and go home if they don’t get their way. Then trying to absolve themselves of responsibility

It’s like people calling themselves libertarian because they learned a big word, yet vote straight r every year. You see it with people you know, everywhere. granted this place isn’t nuanced enough that any of the pretenders claim anything but undying loyalty to the party that hates they’re scared of, but I’m sure you have more thoughtful friends that still attempt to provide that illusion.

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:lol The radioactive levels of butthurt in this post, tbh.

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Originally Posted by Will Hunting

Here's where we disagree - there's no evidence that suggests most voting Democrats are as centrist as Biden is. The data shows Democratic voters are predominantly people who aren't raging BernieBros and are thus pragmatic enough to show up and vote but want policies materially to the left of where the Democratic Party currently sits. For example, 89% of Democrats want Medicare for all, I sincerely doubt it's the other 11% that make up the electorate. Nevertheless, the DNC has fought harder against a M4A platform than it did against Trump's tax cuts.

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There's been no fight. Just completely ignoring them and writing them off, tbh.

And :lol that pretty much most or all of the chumpettes fall into that eleven percent "centrist" crowd.

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Originally Posted by spurraider21

meanwhile the other option is trying to literally suppress voters through the legal system

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kinda funny how he went from "voter suppression" to "encouraging voter fraud"

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Originally Posted by Trainwreck2100

kinda funny how he went from "voter suppression" to "encouraging voter fraud"

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encouraging it in states where he believes it will help him

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Originally Posted by Spurtacular

:lol The radioactive levels of butthurt in this post, tbh.

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seriously dud, you’re too stupid to be involved in this conversation. Go run to the people you think like you. Maybe between all of you, you can formulate a thought.

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Originally Posted by Bogie

seriously dud, you’re too stupid to be involved in this conversation. Go run to the people you think like you. Maybe between all of you, you can formulate a thought.

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Don't bet on it. That is like asking a bunch of poo-flinging chimps to make a chair. If one can't, there is no reason to think ten of them can.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

[thinly written author with a title that the right has every reason to push as part of its voter suppression efforts]

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Trump is an existential threat to our democracy, and not supporting Biden has a very real possibility of four more years of a full on fascist wanna be dictator & may very well mean the end of even lip service democracy in the US.

/thread.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

I wonder how much of that is just knowing not even Bush would have fucked the pandemic response up as badly as Trump. I mean it's fucked up Bush was killing people in the middle east for no good reason but Trump is killing us for no good reason, and I guess I don't give a shit about Iraqi lives compared to my own and those around me.

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From reagan to W to Trump each generation of GOP gets more grotesque and makes the previous one look better by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Isitjustme?

From reagan to W to Trump each generation of GOP gets more grotesque and makes the previous one look better by comparison.

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That is the United States in a nutshell

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Originally Posted by Isitjustme?

From reagan to W to Trump each generation of GOP gets more grotesque and makes the previous one look better by comparison.

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Trump is a quantum leap bad.
He grotesqued himself into another energy level.