Master Duncan schools the young star Howard

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Tim Duncan blocks 5 shots, including 4 by forward Dwight Howard.
Tim Povtak
Sentinel Staff Writer

December 6, 2005

Dwight Howard never went to college, but it felt like Tim Duncan took him there Monday night.

It was time well spent.

Howard might be a future star -- he's certainly the future of the Orlando Magic -- but he was schooled by the master at TD Waterhouse Centre.

"Tim does that to a lot of guys,'' San Antonio point guard Tony Parker said. "Dwight is going to be a great player -- he'll be fine -- but Tim is the MVP.''

Duncan, the two-time MVP and three-time NBA champion, led the San Antonio Spurs to a 110-85 victory against the Magic, dominating Howard in the second half.

Howard had his fun in the first two periods, outscoring Duncan 10-8 and outrebounding him 10-4. The two teams were tied at 46 at intermission.

But the second half was a different story. Duncan finished with 26 points, 12 rebounds and five blocked shots. Four of those blocks came against Howard, who never had been defended so well before.

Howard finished with 13 points, 15 rebounds and one blocked shot. Nothing came easy against Duncan.

"I learned some things tonight. I paid attention,'' Howard said. "But he's 29, in his ninth year. He's the MVP. Hopefully by the time I've been in the league that long . . . I'll have that kind of experience.''

Although he isn't as athletic as Howard, Duncan seemed to be one step ahead of him at every turn in the second half, clearly making him think twice before making a move to the basket.

"Tim is just so smart out there,'' said Spurs Coach Gregg Popovich. "He's just so strong fundamentally that he doesn't have to do it with his athleticism. You aren't going to get him off his feet. He's going to be in the right place.''

Although dominating Howard, Duncan was raving about him afterward. When he was Howard's age, he was still playing at Wake Forest University. Both were No. 1 picks in the draft, but Howard arrived seven years after Duncan.

"I'm just glad that I will be out of the league when he is peaking,'' Duncan said. "I love his game. I'm like 91/2 years older than him. That's just crazy. He's so talented, so developed already. He's going to be an unbelievable player.''

For now, though, experience was the best teacher. The Magic are hoping that Howard can develop like Duncan, who might be the most fundamentally sound big man in NBA history.



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imagined what would happen if duncan had sign with the magic and hill was a busts and they ended up with howard hahahah nasty

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Originally Posted by TDMVPDPOY

imagined what would happen if duncan had sign with the magic and hill was a busts and they ended up with howard hahahah nasty

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Uh, they wouldn't have, unless Tim got hurt and missed most of a season. No team with Tim will miss the playoffs.

I once heard a commentor who disagreed that John Stockton was "not athletic", saying appropriately that basketball smarts is an athletic prowess.

Athletic talent is not just the ability to jump and run, not to say Howard does not have more than that (he seems to have a great work ethic) but face it Duncan is special and in his own quiet way is "athletic".

The only knock on Duncan besides his FT shooting percentage (pre-2005-06) has been his springs. He's not a "leaper".

Tell me though, how is that 360 spin move Tim put on Howard for the and-1 not fast-twitch athleticism?

"Dwight Howard never went to college, but it felt like Tim Duncan took him there Monday night."

Nice opening line!

Have you noticed that when Tim has done the last two spin moves, there's an instant where his movement pauses, before he finishes?

I joke that Tim blacks out or closes his eyes while he spins, and needs that pause to recover, "stop the merry-go-around", and start a new move to the basket.

"whoa, what happened? did that work? where's the ball?" :lol

Dwight is a sophomore in college age. Give him 2 more years in the NBA to graduate, and then we'll see where he is. He sure looks like he's got plenty of gifts, and has great hustle/desire and body-banging as seen in his huge RB numbers.

Tim and Tony aren't gifted with graceful, controlled athleticism, aren't "natural athletes", the kinds of players the NFL scouts drool over. "natural atheletes" are the guys who letter and all-star in 3 HS sports, apparently effortlessly.

I would call Tim and Tony them "manufactured" players, 1000s of hours, years in the gym practicing moves, skills, shooting, dribbling. Who probably couldn't play baseball or football if their lives depended on it. :)

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Originally Posted by boutons

Tim and Tony aren't gifted with graceful, controlled athleticism, aren't "natural athletes", the kinds of players the NFL scouts drool over. "natural atheletes" are the guys who letter and all-star in 3 HS sports, apparently effortlessly.

I would call Tim and Tony them "manufactured" players, 1000s of hours, years in the gym practicing moves, skills, shooting, dribbling. Who probably couldn't play baseball or football if their lives depended on it. :)

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I just totally disagree with all of this except the part where you say they practice 1000s of hours and spent years practicing. Timmy was a gifted swimmer and he is an athlete. TP makes so many creative adjustments in the air, on the fly, ain't no way that's a product of manufacturing.

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Originally Posted by Solid D

I just totally disagree with all of this except the part where you say they practice 1000s of hours and spent years practicing. Timmy was a gifted swimmer and he is an athlete. TP makes so many creative adjustments in the air, on the fly, ain't no way that's a product of manufacturing.

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Yeah, Tony's definitely athletic. Of course, nobody can play the point decently without a ton of skills to go with that.

Tim has an unearthly gift for basketball, but that's not same thing as athleticism. Nazr, for example, has a lot more athleticism, but not a fraction of Tim's feel for the game.

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Originally Posted by boutons

Tim and Tony aren't gifted with graceful, controlled athleticism, aren't "natural athletes", the kinds of players the NFL scouts drool over. "natural atheletes" are the guys who letter and all-star in 3 HS sports, apparently effortlessly.

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Originally Posted by Solid D

I just totally disagree with all of this except the part where you say they practice 1000s of hours and spent years practicing. Timmy was a gifted swimmer and he is an athlete. TP makes so many creative adjustments in the air, on the fly, ain't no way that's a product of manufacturing.

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I totally disagree with it, too. Tim MUST have the "natural" instinct required to be a true great basketball player, because he would not be the gifted, talented player he is today having started when he did (basketball was not his first choice of sport) and be where he is today (i.e., MVP, Championships, etc.) otherwise. Additionally, there is no way they could bounce back from injuries the way they do if they were not true "athletes".

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Originally Posted by boutons

I would call Tim and Tony them "manufactured" players, 1000s of hours, years in the gym practicing moves, skills, shooting, dribbling. Who probably couldn't play baseball or football if their lives depended on it.

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I don't think Tim and Tony are "manufactured players". Thousands of hours of practice only add to and enhance the God-given talent that is already there and expand and develop their existing athletic game. Avery Johnson is a "manufactured" (self-made) player of the type you describe. Bruce Bowen is a "manufactured" (self-made) player of the type you describe. But...not Tony and not Tim...athletes like them are born.

Does anyone find it ironic that the two franchises who pined most for Tim Duncan play in arenas named TD? I didn't think so. :elephant

Must suck to be reminded of him every time you walk in though. :lol

I just want to make a quick comment on that spin move Tim has been utilizing lately. I've seen him use it a little over half a dozen times this year and I don't recall him (i could be wrong) using it at all last season. This is just an observation to those who feel that Tim is on a downward swing. I remember he used it quite a bit from 2000-2003 then he just stopped using it. Another move I haven't seen him use in a while is that 2 step statue of liberty dunk, but I think that's the dunk that injured his knee back in '01.

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Originally Posted by jman3000

I just want to make a quick comment on that spin move Tim has been utilizing lately. I've seen him use it a little over half a dozen times this year and I don't recall him (i could be wrong) using it at all last season. This is just an observation to those who feel that Tim is on a downward swing. I remember he used it quite a bit from 2000-2003 then he just stopped using it.

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I think the reason he didn't use it last year is his battered ankles. Twisting like that is very painful if you have a sore ankle.

"Timmy was a gifted swimmer"

Those long arms helped a lot. :)

ime, competitive swimmers are often good at no other sport. I remember laughing at the swimmers in college trying to play any kind of pick-up ball games, even volleyball. Swimming success translates very poorly into ball sports, whereas great natural athletes often had to choose in which sport to concentrate on after HS.

Tim isn't well muscled or naturally strong, and doesn't think hitting the weights is important for his finesse game, he's not fast or quick, or graceful. He's a very, hard-working big man who is in basketball, like so many other big men (eg, Rasho, Yao, Brad Miller), not because he's above-average athletically, but primarily because he's tall. Tim's main physical gift is his height.

Another stat on non-athleticism of basketball big men is their classic inabilty to shoot FTs, which requires good co-ordination and timing. Even with tons of practice, many of them NEVER shoot FTs with even average %ages.

Tony's main gifi is his straight-ahead speed, but, after 10 years of playing competitive basketball, his inability to FT and jumpshoot well exposes his lack of co-ordination.

I love both those guys, for having achieved so much on quite average athleticism.

There are many NBA players with fantastic athletism but without pscylology and work ethic to go with it. Imagine Tony's psychology with a Ricky-Davis athelticism.

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"I'm just glad that I will be out of the league when he is peaking,'' Duncan said.

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Whoa!

Is Duncan foreshadowing an early retirement?



Panic! Panic!

"Duncan foreshadowing an early retirement?"

Tim will have big decision to make after his current contract expires.
5 more years, which is about right for "sophomore" Dwight to be peaking.

in about 5 more years
tp will be a free agent to.....

boutons, you amaze me. Average athleticism? Don't kid yourself. The people in this Forum may be average, but not those guys. Tim may not have the leaping ability of KG, but his sense of timing, his kinesthetic awareness, hand-eye coordination and other things to go into making an athlete are right up there with some of the best. Same with Tony.

But that's just my perception. If you look up athlete in the dictionary, you won't get much help there either, boutons, so I guess it's sort of an amoeba-shaped idea of what an athlete really is today.

Boutons, I think the distinction you are making is not a part of the contemporary definition of athleticism.

A runner could be a great "athelete" by being naturally fast.

Now we do say some who have a combinations of skills are especially great atheletes, and sometimes these combinations allow them to play several sports very well. For instance, if a person is very strong, fast and coordinated they will probably probably be able to play almost any sport.

The basketball players that we think of as atheletic are the fastest runners, best dribblers, and highest jumpers, with consideration also of coordination.

I would say Tony's speed falls under the category of atheletic gift.

Tim's skills are somewhat based on intelligence and size, with average NBA-level athleticism. He is not stronger, faster or more coordinated than the average big-man, but he is more skilled. I'm not sure its just a matter of the number of hours that he has trained, though. I do think it has to do with ability, but I'm not sure we can articulate what makes him great.

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Originally Posted by boutons

Tim isn't well muscled or naturally strong, and doesn't think hitting the weights is important for his finesse game, he's not fast or quick, or graceful. He's a very, hard-working big man who is in basketball, like so many other big men (eg, Rasho, Yao, Brad Miller), not because he's above-average athletically, but primarily because he's tall. Tim's main physical gift is his height.

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I completely disagree that the only difference between Rasho and Duncan is that Duncan has worked harder. Aside from the exceptional athletic gifts that some guys bring to the table, some players just have a better innate feel for the game than others.

I figure Brad Miller has probably worked as long and as hard as Duncan at basketball. Neither is hugely athletic. Duncan is a two-time MVP who has led his team to three titles, while Miller is a nice complementary player and borderline All-Star. Duncan is just better at a lot of the little things in the game -- footwork, passing out of the double team, positioning for rebounds, etc. Some of that is the work he's put in, some of it is simply his gift for playing basketball.

Florida Day
By John Denton
Dec 6, 2005
Link: Florida Day

Duncan drills Magic
Spurs star takes Magic's Howard to school in rout

ORLANDO - When they faced off last season for the first time ever, Dwight Howard was so nervous playing against Tim Duncan that one of his jump shots actually sailed over the top of the backboard.

A year older and far more poised now than his erratic rookie season, Howard pronounced himself ready to challenge the two-time Most Valuable Player and three-time NBA Finals MVP Monday night.

But as Duncan proved in an absolute demolition of the Magic's promising power forward, Howard is still light years away from holding his own against the NBA's elite.

Hounded all night by Duncan's long-armed defense, Howard suffered through one of the worst games of his young NBA career. He missed 14 of his 18 shots -- four of which were stuffed by Duncan -- as San Antonio turned up the intensity in the second half, cruising to a runaway 110-85 defeat of the Orlando Magic.

Howard had 13 points and 15 rebounds -- his 13th double-double of the season -- but it was an otherwise forgettable night for the 6-foot-11, 265-pound teenager. Meanwhile, Duncan scored 18 of his 26 points in the second half, sparking San Antonio to a 64-39 pummeling of the short-handed Magic after the break. Duncan also added 12 rebounds and five blocks, leaving Howard once again in awe after the game.

"He's so composed and he takes his time," Howard gushed. "He got the shots he wanted. I have to do that instead of taking the shots the defense wants me to take. Duncan got every shot he wanted.

"It was a rough, rough day. I learned a lesson."

To his credit, Duncan was much kinder after the game to Howard than he was during it. At 29 and in his ninth year in the league, Duncan has a decided advantage over Howard and said as much.

"I was looking before the game and I'm like 9 1/2 years older than him," Duncan said. "That is just crazy. (Howard) is just so talented, so developed. He doesn't look like a 19-year-old. He has so much promise and I'm just glad that I will be out of the league when he is peaking."

Orlando (7-10) lost its fourth consecutive game and the third straight time by at least 20 points. The Magic, who have nine home games the next four weeks, host the Chicago Bulls on Wednesday night.

The Magic were without point guard Steve Francis for a third consecutive game. Francis has strained cartilage in his ribs, an injury he says he suffered in a car wreck two weeks ago. Hill said that Francis has been cleared to return as soon as he can tolerate the pain, but the Magic's leading scorer refused to put a timetable on when he might play again.

"We're going through a tough stretch right now, but our heads are still up," said DeShawn Stevenson, who had 15 points, but just two after halftime. "We're missing Steve and Grant (Hill), but there are no excuses. We just have to go and play."

On a more encouraging front for the Magic, Hill expects to practice today and could be back by late this week or early next week. Hill had surgery for a sports hernia (a lower abdomen tear) five weeks ago Monday. He said he's felt no pain during light workouts the past week, and his conditioning is the only thing keeping him off the floor now.

The game was tied at the half, but that's when San Antonio poured on the steam. Duncan scored San Antonio's first eight points of the second half and the Spurs hit 25 of 42 shots after the break. The same Spurs team that didn't have a second-chance point in the first half got 14 points on putbacks after the break.

"Our motto is just to play the whole 48 minutes," Duncan said. "We are here to play it from start to finish. Things will go up and down. We will make runs and they will make runs. But we just keep playing."

Tony Parker continued his push to make the NBA all-star team for the first time, scoring 20 points. Robert Horry scored a season-high 18 points off the bench, including a deep 3-pointer just before the half that tied the score and sapped whatever the momentum the Magic might have taken to the locker room.

Howard was one of eight in the second half, while Duncan was seven of 11. The domination was complete late in the fourth quarter when Duncan leaned back against Howard, spun baseline and finished at the rim as Howard could only foul him. When it was over, Howard attributed his struggles more to his own butterflies than anything Duncan did defensively. But he also asked for more time to learn the game before he is compared to Duncan.

"I'm just 19 and I've got a long time left in this league," said Howard, who turns 20 on Thursday. "This is just my second year and I'm still learning every night."

Dwight looks a like his head and heart are in the right place to exploit his talents to the max. If he doesn't learn all the asshole balla shit and stay humble and authentic like Tim, he should give us all a lot of years of pleasure watching him grow and play.

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Originally Posted by spursfaninla

Tim's skills are somewhat based on intelligence and size, with average NBA-level athleticism. He is not stronger, faster or more coordinated than the average big-man, but he is more skilled. I'm not sure its just a matter of the number of hours that he has trained, though. I do think it has to do with ability, but I'm not sure we can articulate what makes him great.

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For all the shit I've posted criticizing Tim and Tony and Pop and the Spurs (but not Manu, because he's perfect :)), I've never once posted this, so I think it might be appropriate, even though it doesn't add anything to the discussion:

I love Tim Duncan!!!!!

Now Duncan is not athletic? omg... the crap gets deeper everyday.

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Originally Posted by Solid D

The only knock on Duncan besides his FT shooting percentage (pre-2005-06) has been his springs. He's not a "leaper".

Tell me though, how is that 360 spin move Tim put on Howard for the and-1 not fast-twitch athleticism?

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The problem is the Sports Center Junkies and many scribes confuse quickness and especially explosive jumping with athleticism, when in fact, it is only a very small part.

The facts are, you don't excell in sport, especially not as one of the best players in the World at a particular sport, without being one of the Worlds most gifted athletes.

Not only is Tim proven to be one of the World's most gifted basketball athletes, before Tim was a basketball player, he was a World Class Swimmer for his age bracket.

I acknowledge, Tim is one of the most celebrial athletes who have ever played a professional sport. He thinks, then he delivers with precision and great athletic skills. Duncan is athleteticism at it greatest form.