Bj Armstrong gets my "Huh?" award for today.

Art (San Antonio, TX): Wuz Up B.J. Hey whats your take on Ginobili. Do you think he is one of the premier clutch players in this league? and is there a team in the west that has a chance to stop the Spurs?

B.J. Armstrong: (2:16 PM ET ) Manu is a terrific role player playing along side a great player in Tim Duncan. He's shown the ability to be fearless in giong to the basket and taking clutch shots. On the other hand is Manu on the same level as a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter, talentwise? Probably not. But championship caliber players need to be championship caliber teammates and that he is.

Reading is FUNdamental BJ

Colin, (SB, CA): Hey B.J., why is it that duncan isn't getting called for setting so many illegal picks. i know superstars get calls under the basket and thats ok, they earned it, but duncan consistantly shuffels his feet after a screen/pick and never gets blown up for it. what gives?

B.J. Armstrong: (2:36 PM ET ) Setting a pick is a lost art in basketball. It's interesting that you picked up on such a small detail a very good observation on your part. He's one of the few big men that sets screens these days. He gives up his body to set the screen and get his teammates open. What a novel idea. My hats off to Tim Duncan.

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Originally Posted by Sec24Row7

Art (San Antonio, TX): Wuz Up B.J. Hey whats your take on Ginobili. Do you think he is one of the premier clutch players in this league? and is there a team in the west that has a chance to stop the Spurs?

B.J. Armstrong: (2:16 PM ET ) Manu is a terrific role player playing along side a great player in Tim Duncan. He's shown the ability to be fearless in giong to the basket and taking clutch shots. On the other hand is Manu on the same level as a Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady or Vince Carter, talentwise? Probably not. But championship caliber players need to be championship caliber teammates and that he is.

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IF he wanted to take 30+ shots he would be......c'mon compare apples with apples!

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Originally Posted by LilMissSPURfect

IF he wanted to take 30+ shots he would be......c'mon compare apples with apples!

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So all that is separating Manu from kobe, t-mac etc is that he doesn't take 30 shots a game? :lol

Manu and Kobe's Killer instinct seperate them from players like Vince and T-Mac.

Kobe's athleticism and shooting prowess seperate him from manu.

Ginobili is the perfect championship role player. He knows when to take over and when to let other players shoot. I don't have a problem with someone calling him a role-player.

I don't think BJ is off-base here in terms of physical talent. He is not as talented, physically, as the other names mentioned. Not even close really. Hell, basketball-wise Ginobili can't even go right!

On the other hand, he is craftier than any of those "superstars" and is a winner -something you can't say about Vince "Let me tell the other team our final play so that I can get traded" Carter.

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Originally Posted by Banks91

So all that is separating Manu from kobe, t-mac etc is that he doesn't take 30 shots a game? :lol

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that and his long hair...
.
.
..

and the color of his skin.....
,
,,
, :smokin :lol

Oh, god, here we go again. Manu is "smart" but Kobe is "athletic".

Manu is a role player. The major reason for this is that you can't reliably play him more than 30 MPG over the course of a season.

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Manu is a terrific role player playing along side a great player in Tim Duncan.

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Manu's role is to play like a superstar in the playoffs, and last year in the playoffs he did a terrific job of it. Hopefully he can continue to fill this role in this year's playoffs. :)

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Originally Posted by NCaliSpurs

Ginobili is the perfect championship role player. He knows when to take over and when to let other players shoot. I don't have a problem with someone calling him a role-player.

I don't think BJ is off-base here in terms of physical talent. He is not as talented, physically, as the other names mentioned. Not even close really. Hell, basketball-wise Ginobili can't even go right!

On the other hand, he is craftier than any of those "superstars" and is a winner -something you can't say about Vince "Let me tell the other team our final play so that I can get traded" Carter.

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If you don't think Manu can go right, you havent watched him play and don't know wtf you are talking about. When was the last time a championship team consistently depended on a role player to "Take Over"?

Robert Horry is a role player. Barry is a role player. Kevin Martin is a role player. Jason Hart is a role player. Manu is a star who has a big deciding factor over the course of an entire postseason, game in and game out. Role players contribute in spurts when their team needs them, such as Horry with the big shots. Stars contribute the entire game. Manu does that. He was a role player in the '03 Championship, but is a star on this team now.

I don't know why people harp on number of points without looking at fg%. I don't give a shit if you can score 50 points if you are taking 45 shots to do it. That player is incredibly inconsistent and wastes too many opportunities for his team to score. Scoring 50 by going 17-45 with some free throws is not condusive to winning a game. That is 28 times that player alone gave the ball up without scoring, and a good team will take advantage of that.

Manu's a superstar in my book. :tu

He's definitely got more heart than Tracy and Vince Carter, and that puts him way above them in my opinion. I'll take that.

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Originally Posted by Sec24Row7

If you don't think Manu can go right, you havent watched him play and don't know wtf you are talking about. When was the last time a championship team consistently depended on a role player to "Take Over"?

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Settle down.

I love Manu. He is not a "superstar" like those other guys. He can't play enough minutes conistently to be considered a franchise guy.

He is not as athletic as the other guys and relies on his craftiness. Not to take anything away from Kobe's craftiness, he is just more blessed than Manu and can often just jump-over his man, as opposed to misdirecting him.

He is a star on the team, and one of the leaders. Fine. But I don't think it is an insult to call him an awesome role-player.

As far as being able to go right, if he could he would. Everybody knows he goes left. He always goes to his left hand. The trouble is that no one can stop him anyway.

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Originally Posted by NCaliSpurs

I don't think BJ is off-base here in terms of physical talent. He is not as talented, physically, as the other names mentioned. Not even close really. Hell, basketball-wise Ginobili can't even go right!

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Ginobili is way way more than just basketball-wise. That boy got mad handles!!! He's top 20 in the league in basketball skills. that plus his experience as euro,olympic,nba champion, his clutchness, his cold blood and his heart makes him top 10 player in the NBA.

Spurs won't win it all this year if Manu doesn't singlehandedly carry us for many of these playoff games.

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Originally Posted by Sec24Row7

Reading is FUNdamental BJ

Colin, (SB, CA): Hey B.J., why is it that duncan isn't getting called for setting so many illegal picks. i know superstars get calls under the basket and thats ok, they earned it, but duncan consistantly shuffels his feet after a screen/pick and never gets blown up for it. what gives?

B.J. Armstrong: (2:36 PM ET ) Setting a pick is a lost art in basketball. It's interesting that you picked up on such a small detail a very good observation on your part. He's one of the few big men that sets screens these days. He gives up his body to set the screen and get his teammates open. What a novel idea. My hats off to Tim Duncan.

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Finally someone other than me notices this! Too bad BJ miffed the response by being an idiot and not admitting to it. The most recent and obvious example is Duncan's clear-out of Mike Bibby (although I think Barry would have still had enough time to get off a clean shot otherwise). If you look at every game of the Western Conference Finals (especially 4th qtr of game 5), then you will see that almost everytime Duncan sets a screen, he is moving and I think he only got whistled once the entire series. People complain that the Suns set moving screens and I'll admit it when they do, but they often do not clear out the smaller defender and continue riding him into the post like Duncan does - and his ability to do it has grown as he's gotten older and slower over the years... the refs just allow it.

Last year, Amare would move, but he would also immediately roll to the basket and not continue to ride the defender the whole way. This year, Kurt Thomas has gotten called for a lot of moving screens and I'm still waiting for the moment when Duncan gets called for it at a crucial moment in the playoffs (my guess is never because he'll just stand there, stare at the refs, or complain heavily until Pop starts complaining as well and then the official will be too intimidated to make the call again).

I'm just asking for a fair shake because it makes it a lot easier for the Spurs to close out games when Duncan can keep moving on screens and Ginobili can keep flopping and fooling the refs.

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Originally Posted by NCaliSpurs

Settle down.

I love Manu. He is not a "superstar" like those other guys. He can't play enough minutes conistently to be considered a franchise guy.

He is not as athletic as the other guys and relies on his craftiness. Not to take anything away from Kobe's craftiness, he is just more blessed than Manu and can often just jump-over his man, as opposed to misdirecting him.

He is a star on the team, and one of the leaders. Fine. But I don't think it is an insult to call him an awesome role-player.

As far as being able to go right, if he could he would. Everybody knows he goes left. He always goes to his left hand. The trouble is that no one can stop him anyway.

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Watch a Manu highlight reel. Ya know that dunk against the lakers everyone creams over? He went right. A TON of his plays are going right. He may finish more often than not with his left hand at the rim (not always one of the most famous manu plays from Euroleague is when he made an insane behind the head grab of an alley oop with his right hand and slammed it home), but the dude can go right and does consistently.

Manu can go right. I've watched him since before his rookie year in the World Championships.

Anyone who's really watched Manu play for a while knows he can go right.

People that say he can only go left really haven't watched him for very long or just aren't paying attention.

Maybe they just listen to national media types who are reading a scouting report from someone ELSE who is ill informed.

I have watched Manu since his rookie year.

If you look at a tape of every time Manu penetrates, 85% of the time would have him going left.

He CAN go right. But it is the weakest part of his overall great game.

BJ Armstrong is an idiot. He don't know crap

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/MG_295_050612.jpg

Manu only goes right when he is forced to do so.

Manu is a pure basketball player with a creative flair and not just a talent. He's not Kobe or T-Mac in the scoring department, but then again, they aren't Manu in his court vision and passing skills.

Homerism in its finest.

Homerism in its finest.

imo if gino had his own team and was allowed to put up kobe shot attempts he will get his stats.

BJ armstrong doesnt know shit, GINO>bj

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Homerism in its finest

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Who and what are we talkng about here?

I read a bunch of BJ's replies on ESPN, and it's almost comical how he tried to sound zen in all his replies. Oh well, I suppose he thinks it makes him sound intelligent by throwing rhetorical questions.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Finally someone other than me notices this! Too bad BJ miffed the response by being an idiot and not admitting to it. The most recent and obvious example is Duncan's clear-out of Mike Bibby (although I think Barry would have still had enough time to get off a clean shot otherwise). If you look at every game of the Western Conference Finals (especially 4th qtr of game 5), then you will see that almost everytime Duncan sets a screen, he is moving and I think he only got whistled once the entire series. People complain that the Suns set moving screens and I'll admit it when they do, but they often do not clear out the smaller defender and continue riding him into the post like Duncan does - and his ability to do it has grown as he's gotten older and slower over the years... the refs just allow it.

Last year, Amare would move, but he would also immediately roll to the basket and not continue to ride the defender the whole way. This year, Kurt Thomas has gotten called for a lot of moving screens and I'm still waiting for the moment when Duncan gets called for it at a crucial moment in the playoffs (my guess is never because he'll just stand there, stare at the refs, or complain heavily until Pop starts complaining as well and then the official will be too intimidated to make the call again).

I'm just asking for a fair shake because it makes it a lot easier for the Spurs to close out games when Duncan can keep moving on screens and Ginobili can keep flopping and fooling the refs.

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u lost. get over it.

One of the reasons Manu is so hard to guard is that most players are righties and go right almost all the time--just like Manu goes left most of the time--and therefore most players defend against the right handers move out of conditioned reflex and habit, giving lefties like Manu something of a small edge.

You'll note that Beno, not the fastest guy around, often gets by his man because of that edge as well.

All of these comments that Manu isn't the same as other top SGs because he doesn't shoot as much are ridiculous to me. I count a trip to the FT line as a shot attempt because it's a used posession*. Going by this, Manu shoots a lot. The generalization is that guys like Kobe, Carter and Pierce all shoot a lot (and on some nights they really do) but there are other differences too.

*Anyone else have a beef with this? You get fouled and if you put up a shot you might make it and get a 3 point play. If you miss, it doesn't count as a FGA. What's up with that?

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Originally Posted by ca®lo

u lost. get over it.

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great, lucid response...

Manu is extremely athletic and extremely gifted as a ball handler and finisher. Who gives a shit about jumping ability. Some of the best jumpers in the NBA are scrubs as basketball players, and if jumping ability is what you use to rank players then get your ignorant ass over to "streetball" or some bullshit like that and leave REAL basketball to REAL fans.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

great, lucid response...

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Here's a lucid response for you:

Please stop complaining about last year's playoffs. Your team got beaten 4 games to 1, and the only reason is was not a sweep is because the Spurs wanted to get in an extra game before having to wait a week for Detroit. Duncan's screens and bad officiating did not cause your team to lose. An extremely flawed system in which the only thing that matters is running the court and jacking up threes is what caused your team to lose. No D = No Championship, but for some reason D'Antoni does not want to accept that fact and still keeps with the street ball style.

LMAO, Manu is not even close to a Kobe. Manu can't even play 2 games in the same week without sitting out crying. Give me a break.

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Originally Posted by Scobe

Here's a lucid response for you:

Please stop complaining about last year's playoffs. Your team got beaten 4 games to 1, and the only reason is was not a sweep is because the Spurs wanted to get in an extra game before having to wait a week for Detroit. Duncan's screens and bad officiating did not cause your team to lose. An extremely flawed system in which the only thing that matters is running the court and jacking up threes is what caused your team to lose. No D = No Championship, but for some reason D'Antoni does not want to accept that fact and still keeps with the street ball style.

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You're an idiot, as well, so I'll make this simple. As soon as Joe Johnson came back, the Suns won game 4 because he dominated Bruce Bowen (please see the box score). Also, the amount of fans that complained about Amare's block on Duncan's dunk removes creedence from your comment that they were "phoning it in" and that you guys were OK with that. Lastly, Amare dominated Duncan in the 4th quarter offensively, did not get the amount of calls he deserved, and Duncan goaltended one of his shots that would have put the Suns down by 1, instead of spurring the break that put you guys up by 5 with under a minute to go. No doubt the Suns would probably have lost game 6 in SA, but it would have made it more of a series.

Also, it's hard to play defense when Duncan gets all the calls and actually hits free throws for once (game 3 in particular), and the refs buy into Ginobili's 3-steps then flop charade because the games are "higher tension." Suns would have lost the series anyways, and all games were close, but they had a difficult time with Choke Richardson and an injured Joe Johnson in the backcourt because last year's bench was worthless at best. If you don't believe me, my roommate is a die-hard Spurs fan and we have the entire WCF burned on CD, which we've consulted many times to confirm a lot of what I have said.

Also, for those of you that say the Suns don't play D, please get an ESPN insider membership and read John Hollinger's stats, where he states (before the injury to Kurt Thomas) that the Suns were playing better defense than the Pistons, while the Pistons were putting up more efficient offensive numbers (when adjustments were made for number of possesions per game). The Suns front line is more than depleted this year and the lack of defensive prowess since Kurt Thomas went down is evident to close out the season.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

You're an idiot, as well, so I'll make this simple. As soon as Joe Johnson came back, the Suns won game 4 because he dominated Bruce Bowen (please see the box score). Also, the amount of fans that complained about Amare's block on Duncan's dunk removes creedence from your comment that they were "phoning it in" and that you guys were OK with that. Lastly, Amare dominated Duncan in the 4th quarter offensively, did not get the amount of calls he deserved, and Duncan goaltended one of his shots that would have put the Suns down by 1, instead of spurring the break that put you guys up by 5 with under a minute to go. No doubt the Suns would probably have lost game 6 in SA, but it would have made it more of a series.

Also, it's hard to play defense when Duncan gets all the calls and actually hits free throws for once (game 3 in particular), and the refs buy into Ginobili's 3-steps then flop charade because the games are "higher tension." Suns would have lost the series anyways, and all games were close, but they had a difficult time with Choke Richardson and an injured Joe Johnson in the backcourt because last year's bench was worthless at best. If you don't believe me, my roommate is a die-hard Spurs fan and we have the entire WCF burned on CD, which we've consulted many times to confirm a lot of what I have said.

Also, for those of you that say the Suns don't play D, please get an ESPN insider membership and read John Hollinger's stats, where he states (before the injury to Kurt Thomas) that the Suns were playing better defense than the Pistons, while the Pistons were putting up more efficient offensive numbers (when adjustments were made for number of possesions per game). The Suns front line is more than depleted this year and the lack of defensive prowess since Kurt Thomas went down is evident to close out the season.

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Damn, you are such a bitch that you will whine and cry about every fucking thing just to make your weak ass team look better. Amare didn't get constantly fouled. The Spurs didnt even show up for game 4 because they already had 3 in the bag. And what happened in game 5? Your shit team got beaten again. And you are bitching about goaltended shots? You are nothing but a whiny cry baby. So :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff

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Originally Posted by SequSpur

LMAO, Manu is not even close to a Kobe. Manu can't even play 2 games in the same week without sitting out crying. Give me a break.

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:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

With kobe you inadvertantly bump him and he goes Artest on you and tries to elbow your throat. What a puss.

I actually thought BJ's response to the Manu question was reasonable. Yes he is a star, yes he is a basketball genius, but no he ain't Kobe (and I HATE Kobe, but he is a more physically talented bala). What really seperates Manu is his instincts - he reads the game a second or two before it happens, and that sets him apart. That and his absolute lack of fear.

As for not being able to go right, that's complete BS. Does he go left more than right? Yes. Does that mean he doesn't have a right hand? No freakin way! You see it all the time. Try watching a bit closer.

"*Anyone else have a beef with this? You get fouled and if you put up a shot you might make it and get a 3 point play. If you miss, it doesn't count as a FGA. What's up with that?"

Yes, I have a problem with that. I am going up for a putback and my opposite no. takes out both my arms before I'm anywhere near the rim. I go to the line, but you want to count that as a shot. That's a missed shot? No it isn't.

The only fouls that should then be counted as shots are touch fouls, but then how you define "touch foul"? You can't, so you have to be categorical and say that fouls don't count as shots unless they go in. Fair enough.

:lol who's manu? is he as good as sean may?

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Originally Posted by Blobit

:lol who's manu? is he as good as sean may?

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haha - almost as good

:lol @the Manu homerism. And not even one Argentinian or member of the church has posted in here yet.

Manu is good, he is a borderline superstar in the playoffs, but, he is more of a Robert Horry kind of player. His game raises dramatically in the playoffs, all his positive stats raise, and all the negatives (TO, Missed FG) decrease.

He can't play with consistency in an 82 games season, because of his playing style, which brings him many injuries. Also his style isn't the style of a shooter, or superstar, if his shot ain't falling, he will pass the ball and not force the issue.

Also, he needs to feel motivated sometimes (in his partcipation in the Rookie vs. Sophmore All Star Game, he said that he didn't like it because it was more of a dunk contest than a game, and nobody bothered to play defense).

Manu is more a Scottie Pippen kind of player. A borderline superstar, but he is a team player. So it could be said that he is a mix between a star and a role player, which is exactly what the Spurs need from him.

Being a borderline star, or a role star player, it is better than being a superstar sometimes. Just look at some "stars" like Gilbert Arenas or Vince Carter. He also brings something different than other almost-star players, like Kenyon Martin, which is his attitude.

Haha.

I like it how my "can't even go right" sparked so much hate.

It was made partially tongue in cheek, but you guys are so sensitive about our Argentinian Jesus.

As I stated later, he CAN go right, but the majority of his drives are to the left. The supermajority of his drives are to the left. It is the weakest part of his game, as it is completely predictable. Nevertheless, it hasn't been solved, and it probably won't be, as he is so god damned crafty with his dribble and change of pace.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

You're an idiot, as well, so I'll make this simple. As soon as Joe Johnson came back, the Suns won game 4 because he dominated Bruce Bowen (please see the box score).

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He sure did, Joe Johnson then got back down to earth in Game 5. Can you say lack of preperation? Or maybe Joe Johnson was healthy in game 4, then suddenly hurt again in game 5? Or maybe the refs were helping out the Spurs again? Just thought I might put in a bunch of excuses for you ahead of time.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Also, the amount of fans that complained about Amare's block on Duncan's dunk removes creedence from your comment that they were "phoning it in" and that you guys were OK with that.

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Didn't read past posts, won't comment.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Lastly, Amare dominated Duncan in the 4th quarter offensively, did not get the amount of calls he deserved, and Duncan goaltended one of his shots that would have put the Suns down by 1, instead of spurring the break that put you guys up by 5 with under a minute to go. No doubt the Suns would probably have lost game 6 in SA, but it would have made it more of a series.

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The Suns lost by 7 points, 3 points, 10 points and 6 points in those 4 games, just want to let you know that one possession is worth 2 or 3 points, 4 points in very rare occasions.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Also, it's hard to play defense when Duncan gets all the calls and actually hits free throws for once (game 3 in particular), and the refs buy into Ginobili's 3-steps then flop charade because the games are "higher tension." Suns would have lost the series anyways, and all games were close, but they had a difficult time with Choke Richardson and an injured Joe Johnson in the backcourt because last year's bench was worthless at best. If you don't believe me, my roommate is a die-hard Spurs fan and we have the entire WCF burned on CD, which we've consulted many times to confirm a lot of what I have said.

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My 2 uncles and 5 of my cousins confirmed that that is not true. Who the hell made you and your roommate the cruel governor of basketball correctness?

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Also, for those of you that say the Suns don't play D, please get an ESPN insider membership and read John Hollinger's stats, where he states (before the injury to Kurt Thomas) that the Suns were playing better defense than the Pistons, while the Pistons were putting up more efficient offensive numbers (when adjustments were made for number of possesions per game). The Suns front line is more than depleted this year and the lack of defensive prowess since Kurt Thomas went down is evident to close out the season.

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For every John Hollinger Stat, there are legions of writers contending otherwise, can't just take what works in your favour and ignore everybody else.

BTW, in the spirit of sticking to the subject. Manu is a role player that can pick up his game during pressure moments. Kinda like a pre-injured Andrew Toney.

ambchang, you tried, but I remember when .4 seconds and two points determined an entire series... a lot of what I'm discussing is momentum

Joe had 14 pts, 4 rebounds and 4 assists with 50% 3pt shooting in game 5 - not "down to earth" especially when Amare has 42 and 16...

also, when i say that with under a minute left, a single play was the difference between 1 point and 5 points, and then you begin shooting free throws, then obviously the games might end with a 6-point or more differential... especially when TD is shooting FTs out of his mind (when ABC/ESPN have graphics about such things, it's easy to remember that he usually doesn't shoot 14-15 in a game). Six point-plus differentials occur when the Suns start jacking 3-pters with under a minute to go (a philosophy I don't agree with, but one they used too often in late-game situations). Ironic that the AP article of that game said that a "crucial" tap-in by Tim Duncan made it a 5-point game and held off a Suns rally...

I'm just saying there are a lot of small plays that add up to an overall victory - and a lot the Spurs get away with despite their complaining sometimes about foul calls (i.e. Duncan screaming at the official and making a blocking gesture with his arms when he obviously traveled).

Manu != Kobe/Carter/etc

Manu > 99% of the league in Playoffs.

Which would you rather have?

From a guy who watched him single-handedly win Game 7 in crunch time in the NBA Finals, I need to see no more to know what Manu is.

Manu = Clutch

Manu's an adrenaline junkie, like EMTs or fighter pilots or standup comics. He needs the high-pressure situation to sharpen his edge and bring out the best in him.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

ambchang, you tried, but I remember when .4 seconds and two points determined an entire series... a lot of what I'm discussing is momentum

Joe had 14 pts, 4 rebounds and 4 assists with 50% 3pt shooting in game 5 - not "down to earth" especially when Amare has 42 and 16...

also, when i say that with under a minute left, a single play was the difference between 1 point and 5 points, and then you begin shooting free throws, then obviously the games might end with a 6-point or more differential... especially when TD is shooting FTs out of his mind (when ABC/ESPN have graphics about such things, it's easy to remember that he usually doesn't shoot 14-15 in a game). Six point-plus differentials occur when the Suns start jacking 3-pters with under a minute to go (a philosophy I don't agree with, but one they used too often in late-game situations). Ironic that the AP article of that game said that a "crucial" tap-in by Tim Duncan made it a 5-point game and held off a Suns rally...

I'm just saying there are a lot of small plays that add up to an overall victory - and a lot the Spurs get away with despite their complaining sometimes about foul calls (i.e. Duncan screaming at the official and making a blocking gesture with his arms when he obviously traveled).

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give up, suns got run in their own style. amare had a monster series, and it wasn't enough.

All I have to say is this: Who took over the finals last year?wasn't it Manu?

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

ambchang, you tried, but I remember when .4 seconds and two points determined an entire series... a lot of what I'm discussing is momentum

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.4 seconds was a ONE possession game, the Lakers did not win by 10 points, 3 points, 7 points and 6 points. .4 seconds was DRAMATIC, it changed the series in a way where it allowed the Lakers to win game 6 at home. The Lakers have figured out how to play the Spurs, and it was to pack it in and force them to shoot jumpers, which they couldn't. You can just as easily say that the Stoudemire block on Duncan was a series changing play, but you can't, beucase the Suns lost.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Joe had 14 pts, 4 rebounds and 4 assists with 50% 3pt shooting in game 5 - not "down to earth" especially when Amare has 42 and 16...

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Way to be selective in your stats. He shot 6/17, and 2/4 on 3s. And For a guy who scores 17/5/3.5 in the regular season, 14/4/4 is not coming down to earth, it went slightly below it.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

also, when i say that with under a minute left, a single play was the difference between 1 point and 5 points, and then you begin shooting free throws, then obviously the games might end with a 6-point or more differential... especially when TD is shooting FTs out of his mind (when ABC/ESPN have graphics about such things, it's easy to remember that he usually doesn't shoot 14-15 in a game). Six point-plus differentials occur when the Suns start jacking 3-pters with under a minute to go (a philosophy I don't agree with, but one they used too often in late-game situations). Ironic that the AP article of that game said that a "crucial" tap-in by Tim Duncan made it a 5-point game and held off a Suns rally...

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You can also say that a single play at the beginning of the game could be the difference between a 30 point win and a 30 point loss, so what? I can't see into parallel universes and see what could have/would have happened if the refs called teh game differently. You make it sound like the Suns get teh short end of the stick every single game, and the Spurs gets preferential treatment throughout the series, which is simply untrue.
Even IF it was true, championship plays through adversity, the Suns can't, and instead you refused to admit that they lost to a superior team. This is just sad.
I am not going to, and I am not able to argue with you about what would have happened if the refs called ever single play as you would have wanted. Because, first, it's unlikely, because referees cannot call plays through the eyes of a biased fan, or else they would have been fired a long time ago, and two, I can see the present, and to some degree, the past.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

I'm just saying there are a lot of small plays that add up to an overall victory - and a lot the Spurs get away with despite their complaining sometimes about foul calls (i.e. Duncan screaming at the official and making a blocking gesture with his arms when he obviously traveled).

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You trying to say that the Suns NEVER had a call called in their favour? The Spurs have every single play called in their favour? Or are you just trying to claim that the Spurs have MORE calls go for them? If you, you would have to go through all 5 games and document it play by play.
And guess what? The Spurs are able to capitalize on the favouralbe calls, Suns can't.
Also, let us break down the FTA per game.
Game 1: Spurs 31, Suns 29
game 2: Spurs 21, Suns 17
Gmae 3: Spurs 30, Suns 15
Game 4: Spurs 23, Suns 16
Game 5: Spurs 16, Suns 17.
Other than game 3, there simply was not a significant difference between the two teams. Keep in mind that the Suns were, as you suggested, fouling on purpose in the last second, and that the Spurs are an inside team, while the Suns are a perimeter team, it looks to me that the Suns got a fair shake. Hell, I am starting to think why did the Spurs not shoot 10 more FT per games than the Suns did.

BTW, I am not even so sure what we are arguing about. Are you saying that the Suns lost the series because of bad calls? Are you saying the Suns lost one game because of a bad call? Are you saying the Suns get less calls than the Spurs? Please let me know.

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Originally Posted by ambchang

BTW, I am not even so sure what we are arguing about. Are you saying that the Suns lost the series because of bad calls? Are you saying the Suns lost one game because of a bad call? Are you saying the Suns get less calls than the Spurs? Please let me know.

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Actually, I was at game 3 in SA (I live in College Station) and I just got really frustrated with the homerism and stupidity I saw when I was there, and I've been bitter about that series ever since. Of course, I tried to show a little courage and support, so I wore an Amare jersey, where I expected to get a little bit of crap from the fans for it. My friend was with me and as soon as I came up the escalator to the promenade upstairs, the mariachi band stopped and everyone (like 200 people) booed me, which we both thought was hilarious and I'll respect that kind of team spirit.

It was when I was at my seats and this idiot 16-year-old behind me kept kicking me in the neck by "accident" and trying to throw pieces of stuff in my hair (to impress his girlfriend or something I don't know) that I started getting a little angry and irritated. Being the only Suns fan in the 500-mile radius of the arena, I felt no need to start a fight and my friend (wearing a Parker jersey) actually turned around and told the kid to cut it out. In addition to that, just listening to the fans dispute every single call that went the Suns' way (you mentioned that the Spurs had a 30-15 FT advantage) was preposterous to me, and I heard on almost every occasion how "every call was going Phoenix's way." While also enduring a humiliating loss, hearing this unobjective BS was unacceptable in my mind.

Now, on the whole, a lot of the fans were pretty nice and I didn't receive any lame discrimination from like a vendor or anything, but it just took a few bad apples to ruin my 3rd AT&T Center experience. These are the types of things I'd expect out of Pistons fans or Cavs fans or Laker fans or Mavs fans, but for such a classy organization, I was very disappointed in the overall demeanor of the fans that went to a playoff game. I'm not saying our fans are the nicest either (and I haven't been back to Phoenix that often in the last 2 years to tell), but I went to a lot of games in the Kidd and Barkley eras and I always remember our fans being really spirited and cordial to fans of any other team (even bandwagon Laker fans). And don't bring up how obnoxious our new owner is because I will be the first to agree with you that he is a giant douche.

On the subject of calls, my frustration arises from (a) what I've seen first hand of 17,000 fans bitching about being "wronged" when they have an amazing FT shooting performance from Duncan and a 15 FT advantage, (b) the fact that Duncan, Mohammed, and (formerly) Malik Rose repeatedly get away with over the backs, moving screens, and foot-shuffles (Mohammed mostly on that one), and (c) in late game situations, the foul count seems to rise quickly for the Suns especially as Ginobili begins his drive and flop charade, and (d) the fact that the Suns aren't as solid as a team that we need every single call to go our way in order to have a chance to win (basically, I'm conceding that we're not quite at the status yet to beat you guys straight up because your talent, execution, experience, and game plans are much superior), so a lot of my watching hinges on officiating, which I hate to do, but it's pretty much the only subjective leg I can stand on. (It frustrates me too when I see Popovich and Duncan complaining about getting a lack of calls on the court when the Spurs did have the FT advantage in nearly every game, because I respect those guys and I don't like seeing them pull a Phil or George Karl... and I also wonder why D'Antoni never does it).

And the subject of Joe Johnson, let's admit that he had a broken face and still was only 3 pts and 1 rebound off his average.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Actually, I was at game 3 in SA (I live in College Station) and I just got really frustrated with the homerism and stupidity I saw when I was there, and I've been bitter about that series ever since. Of course, I tried to show a little courage and support, so I wore an Amare jersey, where I expected to get a little bit of crap from the fans for it. My friend was with me and as soon as I came up the escalator to the promenade upstairs, the mariachi band stopped and everyone (like 200 people) booed me, which we both thought was hilarious and I'll respect that kind of team spirit.

It was when I was at my seats and this idiot 16-year-old behind me kept kicking me in the neck by "accident" and trying to throw pieces of stuff in my hair (to impress his girlfriend or something I don't know) that I started getting a little angry and irritated. Being the only Suns fan in the 500-mile radius of the arena, I felt no need to start a fight and my friend (wearing a Parker jersey) actually turned around and told the kid to cut it out. In addition to that, just listening to the fans dispute every single call that went the Suns' way (you mentioned that the Spurs had a 30-15 FT advantage) was preposterous to me, and I heard on almost every occasion how "every call was going Phoenix's way." While also enduring a humiliating loss, hearing this unobjective BS was unacceptable in my mind.

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Can't comment on that, and I am sure some obnoxious fans can be quite annoying, but that has absolutely nothing to do with teh team itself.
Another thing is, the Spurs had a 30-15 advantage in ONE game, and I am still quite surprised about the small difference in FTA in the other 4 games. I really really expected the Spurs to have MANY more FTAs due to style of play and intentional fouling at the end of games.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Now, on the whole, a lot of the fans were pretty nice and I didn't receive any lame discrimination from like a vendor or anything, but it just took a few bad apples to ruin my 3rd AT&T Center experience. These are the types of things I'd expect out of Pistons fans or Cavs fans or Laker fans or Mavs fans, but for such a classy organization, I was very disappointed in the overall demeanor of the fans that went to a playoff game. I'm not saying our fans are the nicest either (and I haven't been back to Phoenix that often in the last 2 years to tell), but I went to a lot of games in the Kidd and Barkley eras and I always remember our fans being really spirited and cordial to fans of any other team (even bandwagon Laker fans). And don't bring up how obnoxious our new owner is because I will be the first to agree with you that he is a giant douche.

On the subject of calls, my frustration arises from (a) what I've seen first hand of 17,000 fans bitching about being "wronged" when they have an amazing FT shooting performance from Duncan and a 15 FT advantage, (b) the fact that Duncan, Mohammed, and (formerly) Malik Rose repeatedly get away with over the backs, moving screens, and foot-shuffles (Mohammed mostly on that one), and (c) in late game situations, the foul count seems to rise quickly for the Suns especially as Ginobili begins his drive and flop charade, and (d) the fact that the Suns aren't as solid as a team that we need every single call to go our way in order to have a chance to win (basically, I'm conceding that we're not quite at the status yet to beat you guys straight up because your talent, execution, experience, and game plans are much superior), so a lot of my watching hinges on officiating, which I hate to do, but it's pretty much the only subjective leg I can stand on. (It frustrates me too when I see Popovich and Duncan complaining about getting a lack of calls on the court when the Spurs did have the FT advantage in nearly every game, because I respect those guys and I don't like seeing them pull a Phil or George Karl... and I also wonder why D'Antoni never does it).

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Like I said earlier, the Suns get away with calls too, and you overlook them just because you are a fan. I let bad calls go if it went in favour of the Spurs. Hell, I cannot comment on officiating when the Spurs are involved, and when I say the refs are biased for the Spurs, I just KNOW that it was one of worst games called in history.
Nash complains ALL the time, that's what they are supposed to do. I have no problem about player complaining to the refs, I have no question about people flopping, I have no problems with hard fouls as long as they paid the consequences and doesn't hurt the other players. As long as both teams play within the rules, and take every little advantage to win the game, then it's all fine and good.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

And the subject of Joe Johnson, let's admit that he had a broken face and still was only 3 pts and 1 rebound off his average.

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So what happened in Game 4? His face was unbroken for 48 minutes, and then rebroke in Game 5?

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Originally Posted by ambchang

So what happened in Game 4? His face was unbroken for 48 minutes, and then rebroke in Game 5?

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Like when Amare came back his first game and scored 20 pts in 18 mins this year, it was probably adrenaline for his first game back, which wore off by Game 5.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Like when Amare came back his first game and scored 20 pts in 18 mins this year, it was probably adrenaline for his first game back, which wore off by Game 5.

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Which means that the Suns should probably be swept. :lol