Pop's reasons for small ball

"When they (Nazr and Rasho) have gotten time, it hasn't been enough for them to really produce," Popovich said. "This particular series, it's difficult for big guys to guard Dallas' perimeter. It's tough to put a big guy on Dirk (Nowitzki).

"The way the rules are, offense really has an advantage, obviously. He has a huge advantage when big guys try to stay with him, so I can't afford to get somebody like Tim Duncan in foul trouble, and the other big guys don't have a shot with that."

Pretty simple. Not going to change this series. You have to put Tim on their center, so there is no one to match Nazr or Rasho up with.

Sounds familiar.

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Originally Posted by Solid D

Sounds familiar.

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Yeah some of us have been saying this for quite some time now.

So then we'll be seeing the same if the Spurs and Phoenix win Monday?

Fo shizzle Pop lover.

:lol

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Originally Posted by Solid D

Fo shizzle Pop lover.

:lol

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:lol :lol

I guess I could understand all this better if the small ball lineup was in any way slowing Dirk down...it isn't...he's just shooting over whoever is guarding him, we are still having to double team him, he's still getting to the FT line umpteen times per game, plus he's rebounding like Bill Russell...and so are the rest of the Mavs....and they are making our interior D look like the Phoenix Suns.



I am trying to figure out exactly what we are gaining by sticking with the small ball...


It seems to me that all we do is give up our shotblocking, interior D and rebounding and are still woefully ineffective against Dirk.

I really don't understand why Horry isn't getting minutes on him...

And the thing no one mentions...if we stick Nazr in there there Dirk has to guard a big man and he might actually pick up a foul every now and then.

Let Nazr pull some minutes on him too and lay some wood on Dirk's ass...it's not like we are stopping Dirk in any way, shape or form with small ball...so I really don't understand what it is that we'd lose by having a big in there even if they are mismatched on Dirk...just have them back off of him on the perimeter and let Dirk shoot...like he does any time he is being defended by a smaller defender anyway....at least we'd have some rebounding in there.

Yes, and all this works if Harris can't recapture his confidence.

Sorry, but that's just lame. I agree that one minute of PT isn't enough for them to produce. That's about it.

Pop should probably explain why he puts Horry or Oberto in to cover the center when Duncan is on the bench in foul trouble.

lol

THATS JUST LAME


yeah that pop what a moron.

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Originally Posted by T Park

lol

THATS JUST LAME


yeah that pop what a moron.

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Since you can't rationally defend it, better to just stick with insults. As I said, that's just lame.

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Originally Posted by whottt

I guess I could understand all this better if the small ball lineup was in any way slowing Dirk down...it isn't...he's just shooting over whoever is guarding him, we are still having to double team him, he's still getting to the FT line umpteen times per game, plus he's rebounding like Bill Russell...and so are the rest of the Mavs....and they are making our interior D look like the Phoenix Suns.



I am trying to figure out exactly what we are gaining by sticking with the small ball...


It seems to me that all we do is give up our shotblocking, interior D and rebounding and are still woefully ineffective against Dirk.

I really don't understand why Horry isn't getting minutes on him...

And the thing no one mentions...if we stick Nazr in there there Dirk has to guard a big man and he might actually pick up a foul every now and then.

Let Nazr pull some minutes on him too and lay some wood on Dirk's ass...it's not like we are stopping Dirk in any way, shape or form with small ball...so I really don't understand what it is that we'd lose by having a big in there even if they are mismatched on Dirk...just have them back off of him on the perimeter and let Dirk shoot...like he does any time he is being defended by a smaller defender anyway....at least we'd have some rebounding in there.

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I don't usually agree with you on much of anything-but if small ball is the answer, why have we owned the Mavs all these years using our bigs? The small guys are struggling with him and he's scoring at will anyway.

Can one guy beat us? I don't care if Dirk shoots a bunch of threes and takes a smaller guy into the lane--if we have someone other than Tim to be there to meet him. Everyone is talking about Dallas using up all their 6 fouls on their bigs defending Tim. Why can't we give up a few hard fouls on Dirk as well?

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Originally Posted by ShoogarBear

So then we'll be seeing the same if the Spurs and Phoenix win Monday?

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Hmmm....I dunno...the Suns are much more easily overpowered by size in a half court set, so I don't think it would be totally the same. I am sure Pop would use the small lineup some, but the bigs should see more play than they have against the Mavs.

I think what will happen if we have bigs guarding Dirk is a Free-throw fest to star tthe game, with our big guys getting into foul trouble anyway.

Its kinda no point in getting Dallas to the line early in the game, and then shifting to smaller defenders-at least with smaller guys we can cut down on dirk's penetration more often.

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Originally Posted by whottt

I guess I could understand all this better if the small ball lineup was in any way slowing Dirk down...it isn't...he's just shooting over whoever is guarding him, we are still having to double team him, he's still getting to the FT line umpteen times per game, plus he's rebounding like Bill Russell...and so are the rest of the Mavs....and they are making our interior D look like the Phoenix Suns.



I am trying to figure out exactly what we are gaining by sticking with the small ball...


It seems to me that all we do is give up our shotblocking, interior D and rebounding and are still woefully ineffective against Dirk.

I really don't understand why Horry isn't getting minutes on him...

And the thing no one mentions...if we stick Nazr in there there Dirk has to guard a big man and he might actually pick up a foul every now and then.

Let Nazr pull some minutes on him too and lay some wood on Dirk's ass...it's not like we are stopping Dirk in any way, shape or form with small ball...so I really don't understand what it is that we'd lose by having a big in there even if they are mismatched on Dirk...just have them back off of him on the perimeter and let Dirk shoot...like he does any time he is being defended by a smaller defender anyway....at least we'd have some rebounding in there.

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Exactly this I am wondering last few days. Dirk doesn't seems to be effected with small ball. His career average vs. Spurs is 20.8 pts, in PO 2006 it is 25.5. So, Spurs are not stopping Dirk.

Lets check some other stats:
J. Terry has career vs. Spurs 13.9 in PO 2006 it is 18.5
J. Howard has career vs. Spurs 12.8 in PO 2006 it is 16.2
D. Harris has career vs. Spurs 9.2 in PO 2006 it is 14.5

In career numbers are pts from PO 2006 already included, so the difference is even bigger. BTW: J. Stackhouse is not affected with small ball in any direction.

So. Small ball doesn't stop Dirk, doesn't stop Stackhouse, it just open paint for Terry, Howard and Harris.

That said, I don't belive that Pop will change line-up on Monday, neither I belive that Mavs will win.
I just think that Pop is making wrong decision and that he will get away with it. Spurs shouldn't have so many problems with Mavs.

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Originally Posted by whottt

I guess I could understand all this better if the small ball lineup was in any way slowing Dirk down...it isn't...he's just shooting over whoever is guarding him, we are still having to double team him, he's still getting to the FT line umpteen times per game, plus he's rebounding like Bill Russell...and so are the rest of the Mavs....and they are making our interior D look like the Phoenix Suns.



I am trying to figure out exactly what we are gaining by sticking with the small ball...


It seems to me that all we do is give up our shotblocking, interior D and rebounding and are still woefully ineffective against Dirk.

I really don't understand why Horry isn't getting minutes on him...

And the thing no one mentions...if we stick Nazr in there there Dirk has to guard a big man and he might actually pick up a foul every now and then.

Let Nazr pull some minutes on him too and lay some wood on Dirk's ass...it's not like we are stopping Dirk in any way, shape or form with small ball...so I really don't understand what it is that we'd lose by having a big in there even if they are mismatched on Dirk...just have them back off of him on the perimeter and let Dirk shoot...like he does any time he is being defended by a smaller defender anyway....at least we'd have some rebounding in there.

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You make some good valid points. I wonder sometimes if the Spurs gave up to quickly on their big lineup. Yes, I am certainly aware that going with the bigs really makes perimeter defense tough, but with a lack of rebounding, and shot blocking, is almost seems like a wash if you ask me. It wouldn't have hurt to try and go big and play zone D behind it just to see if it would have worked a bit...yeah yeah, I am aware that Pop hates zone, but he also hates to go small, so why not.

All that being said, the smalls have began to become acustomed to their new roles, and have been improving every game, so I wouldn't change it anymore now.

The key to tomorrows game is to jump on them early and late. The Mavs haven't been there before, and the Spurs have. The Mavs will cave under pressure, but the Spurs have to put that pressure on them by bulding a lead late. Harris and Howard have been very solid for the Mavs, but making shots in the 2nd quarter of a game 2 isn't half as difficult as making the same shot down 8 in a game 7 elimination game on the other teams home court.

GO SPURS GO !!

Whott- you really want to see Nazr attempt to cover Dirk??

Screw this.. I want Twin Towers back...

BEEEP this small BEEP.
http://images.art.com/images/product...0/10006173.jpg

None of our bigs can cover Dirk, not even Duncan (not that you want him too- 11 minutes in the first half of game 6, anyone?). And if we had Rasho or Nazr in covering Dirk, not only would the quick Mavs blow past them in the lane, but then we suffer on the offensive end because Rasho isn't that good offensively and Nazr can't hold onto the ball.

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Originally Posted by Melmart1

None of our bigs can cover Dirk, not even Duncan (not that you want him too- 11 minutes in the first half of game 6, anyone?). And if we had Rasho or Nazr in covering Dirk, not only would the quick Mavs blow past them in the lane, but then we suffer on the offensive end because Rasho isn't that good offensively and Nazr can't hold onto the ball.

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Now hold on there Melmart. Don't make so much sense of this. Let's keep things more irrational.

I say just put Horry on him-he'd get burned on a drive but he could contest jumpers better than Finley. Duncan on Diop, Parker on Harris, Ginobili on Terry, Bowen on Howard, but then in the fourth, put Bowen on Terry?

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Originally Posted by Melmart1

None of our bigs can cover Dirk, not even Duncan (not that you want him too- 11 minutes in the first half of game 6, anyone?). And if we had Rasho or Nazr in covering Dirk, not only would the quick Mavs blow past them in the lane, but then we suffer on the offensive end because Rasho isn't that good offensively and Nazr can't hold onto the ball.

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Have you seen any TP's layups lately? With Rasho on the floor, there is a lot of place in the paint on the offensive end, and where is place, there are layups.

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Originally Posted by ata

Have you seen any TP's layups lately? With Rasho on the floor, there is a lot of place in the paint on the offensive end, and where is place, there are layups.

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So you are saying to put Rasho in... so that the Spurs are more spaced out on the offensive end? :wtf

Putting Rasho in would help defense more as it would hurt our offense.

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Originally Posted by ata

Putting Rasho in would help defense more as it would hurt our offense.

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How? Who is his slow ass going to guard?

I don't know about his ass, and I don't want to guess anything about yours.
Nevertheless, Rasho should guard Dampier/Diop, Duncan on Dirk. Duncan shouldn't have to guard Dirk to tight. Dirk will score his 30 points regardless of who is guardning him, but Rasho would stop Mav's layup parade.

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Originally Posted by ata

I don't know about his ass, and I don't want to guess anything about yours.
Nevertheless, Rasho should guard Dampier/Diop, Duncan on Dirk. Duncan shouldn't have to guard Dirk to tight. Dirk will score his 30 points regardless of who is guardning him, but Rasho would stop Mav's layup parade.

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Timmy guards Dirk= 3 fouls in the 1st half of game 6, 11 minutes played.

Timmy guards Dirk= Dirk steps on his foot and Timmy gets whistled for it, 6th foul on Timmy.

Timmy guards Dirk= bad, period.

Rasho in the game= less offense

Rasho in the game= Mavs still blow by him to the bucket

Rasho in the game= bad, period.

Oh, and don't be talking smack about my ass. I didn't get personal and there is no reason for you to, either. Besides, you couldn't handle this ass anyways.

With Terry back the Spurs have no choice but to go back to all-small-ball. Horry did a decent job in Game 6, he's really picked up the pace of his game. I can see where he'll get some burn Monday.

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Since you can't rationally defend it, better to just stick with insults. As I said, that's just lame.

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link to where I insulted you? lol

ooooookkkkk

I can't believe some of you clowns are advocating putting Duncan on Dirk.


DONT YOU WANT DUNCAN TO PLAY!?!??


God.....

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Originally Posted by Melmart1

......
Oh, and don't be talking smack about my ass. I didn't get personal and there is no reason for you to, either. Besides, you couldn't handle this ass anyways.

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So getting personal and smacking players is OK, geting personal with posters is not OK. Hypocrisy.

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Originally Posted by ploto

Whott- you really want to see Nazr attempt to cover Dirk??

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Exactly how is he going to do any worse?

What's Dirk hitting against us right now? about 27-29 PPG on 50% shooting? Plus he's pulling down about 10 boards a game? Getting to the line 10+ times per game?


Look the whole reason we are using smaller player to defend him is to try and turn him into a driver...it aint working, he's just adjusted and is shooting over them...and when he is driving it usually ends up being a foul on Duncan or a score...

My logic is that if Dirk is going to own us...we might as well put Bruce on someone he can be effective against(and stay out of foul trouble against as well) like Jason Terry...and get some rebounding(the Mavs are killing us on offensive glass) and secondary shotblocking in there(to protect Duncan).

I think Nazr, Rasho and Horry all have something to offer situationally.

I think Horry can be effective against Dirk in spurts...he used to guard Dirk all the time with LA, he guarded Garnett, he guarded Webber...and he guarded Duncan, and he did all of that well. Yes he's old and slow...but he is excellent at forcing turnovers still...and more importantly, he's freaking Robert Horry. I have no doubts Horry could have figured out Dirk's tendencies if given the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by ata

So getting personal and smacking players is OK, geting personal with posters is not OK. Hypocrisy.

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Me saying that Rasho is slow and you posting a video of a girl who takes it up the ass and says it reminds you of me are two completely different things.

I defy you to find a single person on this board who will say that Rasho ISNT slow.

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Originally Posted by Melmart1

None of our bigs can cover Dirk, not even Duncan (not that you want him too- 11 minutes in the first half of game 6, anyone?). And if we had Rasho or Nazr in covering Dirk, not only would the quick Mavs blow past them in the lane, but then we suffer on the offensive end because Rasho isn't that good offensively and Nazr can't hold onto the ball.

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Rasho and Nazr can both suck...but Rasho hardly ever sucks defensively, even when's forced to defend the basket against guys like Kobe or Dwayne Wade...Rasho is exceptional at doing this, and he is a disruptive force to any teams interior game. He can shoot if he wants to, but defensively he keeps people out of the paint effectively.

Nazr is...well it's just about which Nazr going to show up. If Nazr is on his game(holding on to the ball), rebounding well, and not blowing his defensive assignment, the Mavericks get routed. Nazr can look awful..but he can also make a teams interior defense look like paper mache.

They both have something to offer, situationally if nothing else.


I get nervous because we have the weakest/oldest/least athletic part of our team, going up against the strongest, youngest, most athletic parts of the Mavs team...

How long is our 60 year old swing rotation of offensive players going to be effective having to run all over the court to doubleteam, rebound and defend?

Experience is fantastic...but at some point youth will be served.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Rasho and Nazr can both suck...but Rasho hardly ever sucks defensively, even when's forced to defend the basket against guys like Kobe or Dwayne Wade...Rasho is exceptional at doing this, and he is a disruptive force to any teams interior game. He can shoot if he wants to, but defensively he keeps people out of the paint effectively.

Nazr is...well it's just about which Nazr going to show up. If Nazr is on his game(holding on to the ball), rebounding well, and not blowing his defensive assignment, the Mavericks get routed. Nazr can look awful..but he can also make a teams interior defense look like paper mache.

They both have something to offer, situationally if nothing else.


I get nervous because we have the weakest/oldest/least athletic part of our team, going up against the strongest, youngest, most athletic parts of the Mavs team...

How long is our 60 year old swing rotation of offensive players going to be effective having to run all over the court to doubleteam, rebound and defend?

Experience is fantastic...but at some point youth will be served.

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I agree with most of what you are saying, especially with Rasho being great defensively. But against smaller lineup, historically he is awful. And don't even get me started on Nazr.

Against smaller lineups, Rasho is just not effective, period. And Duncan guarding Dirk means foul trouble. He can NOT get into foul trouble tomorrow like he did in game 6 and expect the Spurs to only be trailing by 6 at the half.

ata, save the links to your mother's home videos..

And Rasho is slooooooooooow...so don't even go there and damn sure don't take it personally.

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Originally Posted by Melmart1

Me saying that Rasho is slow and you posting a video of a girl who takes it up the ass and says it reminds you of me are two completely different things.

I defy you to find a single person on this board who will say that Rasho ISNT slow.

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I truly apologize if you understand that link personally. I truly do, that was not my intention.

It was just association I got, and that is why I allso wrote "totaly of topic".

I apologize again, link was not ment to smack you.

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Originally Posted by Melmart1

Besides, you couldn't handle this ass anyways.

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Must resist the temptation... ;)

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Originally Posted by ata

I truly apologize if you understand that link personally. I truly do, that was not my intention.

It was just association I got, and that is why I allso wrote "totaly of topic".

I apologize again, link was not ment to smack you.

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Apology accepted. I like Rasho, I really do. A helluva lot more than Nazr. But the fact remains that the guy is too slow to guard the fast lineup of the Mavs.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Must resist the temptation...

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:eyebrows

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Originally Posted by whottt

ata, save the links to your mother's home videos..

And Rasho is slooooooooooow...so don't even go there and damn sure don't take it personally.

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Point taken, link deleted.

I not argue speed, I argue how speed was mentioned. I am just sick of how he/she mentioned that Rasho is slow. I am sick of how some posteres here (naming themselves fans) are able to smack any player of our team at any given time (with exception of TD and TRob, of course).
Smacking some person, which is unable to defend itself is just not what I am used to.

If you put a big on Dirk that big's not going to help much with shotblocking and rebounding, unless you want Dirk taking OPEN shots now. I know the Spurs aren't exactly shutting Dirk down, but we're talking about one game here, and if you start trying to guard him with Rasho or Nazr (while they simulateneously try to help in the paint) you could give up 40 or 50 to this guy. We're talking about a very talented scorer (understatement of the fucking year), and now is not the time to try to get cute.

Nazr covering Dirk would be such a clusterfuck.

With refs calling the ticky-tack, you can't put Duncan on Dirk or Dirk on Duncan.

Rasho on Dirk? Dirk dribbles right by him into fouls on Duncan.

Nazr on Dirk? The problem is that Nazr can't be counted on for anything resembling smarts on the floor no matter who he guards.

So, you put a smaller, quicker person on Dirk to keep Dirk from the basket (and getting fouls on Duncan). Dirk can shoot that fadeaway anytime he like, and the game is over if he shoots a higher percentage. That's the way it goes.

On the offensive end, Nazr and Rasho would just get in the way of Duncan. The Mavs rotate pretty fast and pretty well on defense, so spreading out the floor with shooters gets space for Duncan.

Seriously, Pop has got to be one of the most overrated coaches in NBA history. He's won because he has had superior talent. He is not good at all at making adjustments. Phil Jackson outcoached him when the Lakers beat us a couple of years ago. They made the adjustments, we didnt. The pick and roll was killing the Lakers and for some reason, we abandoned it.

Robert Horry should be guarding Dirk. He wont shut him down but he wont have 20+ rebounds either and Horry has long arms which are more difficult to shoot over. Bench Bowen and let him come off first. Problem is Pop wouldn't dream of doing something like that even when Bonzi Wells was killing us.

Yeah, I will probably get flamed for this post but it is on point.

The one time or so Nazr was in, GNob did a nifty shake n bake down the key. No looked it to Nazr for the easy slam, and chalk up another momentum changing assist to GNob.

Wrong. Butterfingers let it slip thru his hands and out of bounds.

Not saying it would have given Nazr more PT or that Nazr/Rash is the way to go, just saying i have no doubt he F'd up his chances for more time on that play. LJ, Kori, not to turn this into a Nazr Roast but I am assuming the Spurs coaches have practiced to the 10th power with Nazr on holding onto those passes. True, you guys hear anything as such? Seems he is just not wired to do it.

Mel hit the nail on the head earlier and almost everyone has ignored it. Yes, putting Rasho in would help us on the defensive end, but Pop feels what would be gained on the defensive end would be more than lost on the offensive end where Rasho would hurt the team.

It is what it is. We're going to play small ball whether anyone likes it or not. At least with Finley getting more burn he is producing. They've also figured out a better way to defend the Mavs in six straight quaters, so hopefully that keeps up.

7 game series are won with adjustments. If the last defensive adjustment Pop made holds, then the Spurs will win this series.

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Mel hit the nail on the head earlier and almost everyone has ignored it.

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Maybe I needed to start my own thread so that people can see my point. I am having insecurity issues!

Actually I disagree with both of you. Pop believes that Rasho would not be effective defensively because there is no one for him to cover that matches up. The notion that Rasho hurts the team offensively is untrue. The penetration he helps to create for Tony and the screens he sets for Manu and Finley are valuable. Just because he isn't shooting does not mean he hurts the team offensively. As for getting in Tim's way on the offenisve end- that is Nazr's problem, not Rasho's.

I also think that Finley is outplaying Horry and that is why we are seeing even more small ball.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Since you can't rationally defend it, better to just stick with insults. As I said, that's just lame.

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I think your insult was LAME.

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Originally Posted by whottt

I am trying to figure out exactly what we are gaining by sticking with the small ball...


It seems to me that all we do is give up our shotblocking, interior D and rebounding and are still woefully ineffective against Dirk.

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That's the funny thing, yeah. We didn't stop Dirk.

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Originally Posted by ploto

Actually I disagree with both of you. Pop believes that Rasho would not be effective defensively because there is no one for him to cover that matches up. The notion that Rasho hurts the team offensively is untrue. The penetration he helps to create for Tony and the screens he sets for Manu and Finley are valuable. Just because he isn't shooting does not mean he hurts the team offensively. As for getting in Tim's way on the offenisve end- that is Nazr's problem, not Rasho's.

I also think that Finley is outplaying Horry and that is why we are seeing even more small ball.

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Ploto,

Rasho's screen setting ability becomes moot when they are not covering Tony on the perimeter. They're sagging off a good 5 feet and daring Tony to shoot a jumper. This is the main reason the spacing was much better with NVE on the floor on Friday. They were guarding him and not clogging the lane the way they did with Tony.

Right now with the way Tim Duncan is dominating, the best offense we can run involves an inside out game with him and four guards around him.

Other problem with having two bigs on court is that dallas are playing with two pg, well they were until the suspension, and on a pic n roll with nowitski a pg will be matched up against a big man, on the other hand if two perimeter players switch on picnroll they can try to stop terry and harris. Pop is letting nowitski let his points

Manny,
I would contend that a big part of the reason they are tempting Tony to shoot jumpers is because he is getting nothing in the lane-- missing one big man is hurting his scoring inside as he gets swarmed every time he goes into the paint with no one to seal those defenders off. I have said all along that I understand the small ball reasons, but there are trade-offs and things you lose and I just think that this is one of them.

What I really don't get is that the Spurs could play with two frontcourt players, and still use a perimeter players on Dirk. There are two orthogonal issues.

Rasho/Nazr/Oberto - Diop/Dampier
Bruce/Finley - Dirk
Duncan - Howard

This way, you still have two shot blockers that could rotate for help defense and improve rebounding. I think we would definitely have the advantage this way, and Dallas would struggle mightly to get anything going offensively. Dirk would have to defend someone on the other end. Perhaps more importantly, we would impose the pace and strategy of the game, and force Dallas to adjust to our personnel.

Pop has decided otherwise, and I am almost getting heart attacks with this small ball crap.

Duncan was matched up with Marion last playoffs and no one complained about it. Now, he is not even capable of guarding Howard? I am confused! :rolleyes