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If Amare was a fundamentally sound player who didn't rely on pure athletic ability to be successful he could come back from these injuries. Unfortunately for him - he's the exact opposite of that and relies solely on his athletic ability. Therefore, he's screwed.
He is not screwed
how do you know he won't get back to what the old amare was? he has enough time to do so.
how about people judge him when he actually plays enough games through the regular season? it is idiotic to call him done when the freaking season hasn't even started yet. There is plenty of time for him to find his feet
he shouldn't be even judged until at least the all-star break...NO SOONER
Get off amare's back and give him the chance to prove himself
suns need him ready for the playoffs...give him the time for that to happen where he can help get them a title shot.
Do you even know the type of injuries this guy has had to his knees? Those injuries have made otherwise healthy players RETIRE. Amare is young - but with his knees in such bad shape he will never be anywhere near as athletic as he was - especially on a consistent basis. At best he will have flashes of ability - at worst he will be a complete dud from here on out. I don't have to see anything - just knowing what happened to both of this guy's knees tell me all I need to know. He was an undersized player who made up for it with freakish athletic ability. Now he won't have that anymore - what else can he do? He can't shoot. He can't rebound. He can't defend. What can he do??
ExactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!
His injury and surgery was serious but to he will never be as athletic is not confirmed as really amare has been getting up quite high in pre-season and considering he is not back to normal yet his knees didn't look too bad to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!
yes some guys have never been the same because of the surgery but guess what? none of them were as young as amare...
undersized? on what planet is 6'11 undersized? is duncan undersized? seeing as how he is basically one inch taller than amare...big difference hey
can't shoot? i remember amare being very consistant from 15 feet in the 04 playoffs..wasn't just pure dunks....9 rebounds a game means he can't rebound? ok
amare needs time..that is all really
saying he is done is foolish to say the least
I'm not saying Amare is done. But his condition is definitely worrisome. They are talking about him having a second surgery in that same knee, chronic arthritis in his other knee, etc.
He's in a lot of pain trying to come back and they shouldn't rush him if they want him to have a chance to return to form. The odds are against him because his game is based on his athleticism, but perhaps if he takes his rehab a little slower and doesn't rush then he has a chance to get back.
Chronic osteoathritis is a chronic, progressive disease. There is no return to normal from chronic osteoarthritis.
I wonder who advised him to get the micro-fracture surgery since there hasn't been 1 player that came back to be even 80% of what they used to be. Easy to 2nd guess now I suppose but there where examples, why try to be the guy to buck the trend?
they need to let the guy rest and stop trying to force him back. If he needs a year off sobeit. No substitute for rest.
jason kidd cameback to be just as good as before
Jason Kidd didn't have this happen to his knees. Especially both of his knees. I know you love Amare, but face it - the Amare you knew is dead. He's gone and never coming back. The only hope he has is to really devote himself to fundamental play and develop a complete low post game. I don't know how that kind of player fits into the Suns system, but he has no other choice. Those knees will not hold up under the kind of pounding they did before his injuries.
For the medically inclined.
A prospective randomized clinical study of mosaic osteochondral autologous transplantation versus microfracture for the treatment of osteochondral defects in the knee joint in young athletes.Gudas R, Kalesinskas RJ, Kimtys V, Stankevicius E, Toliusis V, Bernotavicius G, Smailys A.
Department of Orthopaedics and Trauma, Kaunas University Hospital, Kaunas, Lithuania. [email protected]
PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to compare the outcomes of mosaic-type osteochondral autologous transplantation (OAT) and microfracture (MF) procedures for the treatment of the articular cartilage defects of the knee joint in young active athletes. TYPE OF STUDY: Prospective randomized clinical study. METHODS: Between 1998 and 2002, a total of 60 athletes with a mean age of 24.3 years (range, 15 to 40 years) and with a symptomatic lesion of the articular cartilage in the knee were randomized to undergo either an OAT or an MF procedure. Only those athletes playing in competitive sports at regional or national levels were included in the study. Fifty-seven athletes (95%) were available for a follow-up. There were 28 athletes in the OAT group and 29 athletes in the MF group. The mean duration of symptoms was 21.32 +/- 5.57 months and the mean follow-up was 37.1 months (range, 36 to 38 months), and none of the athletes had prior surgical interventions to the affected knee. Patients were evaluated using modified Hospital for Special Surgery (HSS) and International Cartilage Repair Society (ICRS) scores, radiograph, magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and clinical assessment. An independent observer performed a follow-up examination after 6, 12, 24, and 36 months. At 12.4 months postoperatively, arthroscopy with biopsy for histologic evaluation was carried out. A radiologist and a pathologist, both of whom were blinded to each patient's treatment, did the radiologic and histologic evaluations. RESULTS: After 37.1 months, both groups had significant clinical improvement (P < .05). According to the modified HSS and ICRS scores, functional and objective assessment showed that 96% had excellent or good results after OAT compared with 52% for the MF procedure (P < .001). At 12, 24, and 36 months after surgery, the HSS and ICRS showed statistically significantly better results in the OAT group (P = .03; P = .006; P = .006). Younger athletes did better in both groups. No serious complications were reported. There was 1 failure in the OAT group and 9 in the MF group. The ICRS Cartilage Repair Assessment for macroscopic evaluation during arthroscopy at 12.4 months showed excellent or good repairs in 84% after OAT and in 57% after MF. Biopsy specimens were obtained from 58% of the patients and histologic evaluation of repair showed better scores (according to ICRS) for the OAT group (P < .05). MRI evaluation showed excellent or good repairs in 94% after OAT compared with 49% after MF. Twenty-six (93%) OAT patients and 15 (52%) MF patients returned to sports activities at the preinjury level at an average of 6.5 months (range, 4 to 8 months). Others showed a decline in sports activity level. CONCLUSIONS: At an average of 37.1 months (range, 36 to 38 months) follow-up, our prospective, randomized, clinical study in young active athletes under the age of 40 has shown significant superiority of OAT over MF for the repair of articular cartilage defects in the knee. We found that only 52% of MF athletes could return to sports at the preinjury level. Limitations of our study included a small number of athletes and a relatively short (3-year) follow-up. A long-term follow-up is needed to assess the durability of articular cartilage repair using these methods in young active athletes. LEVEL OF EVIDENCE: Level I, Therapeutic study, randomized controlled trial, significant difference (a).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!
Jason Kidd did have microfracture surgery on his knee. (I don't know exactly if you are saying he didn't. I didn't understand really what this meant: "Jason Kidd didn't have this happen to his knees") But he didn't come back totally the same. I can't think of any player who has. Maybe Zach Randolph has so far, but his game doesn't rely on athleticism like Amare's. But the list of players who were never the same is really long (Penny, CWebb, Mashburn, etc).
I know he had the surgery on a knee, but he didn't and doesn't have the chronic problems on both knees. Some people are acting like he just got injured recently - he hasn't been anywhere near healthy in over a year, and is now having chronic arthritis and pain in the knees. That just doesn't go away, so I see no way that he could recover to a point that his knees would be able to sustain the pounding necessary to perform the athletic feats he did in the '05 playoffs. Notice I never said that he is done as a player, just done as the player that he once was. If his knees allow - he will have the opportunity to rebuild his game to include more fundamental low post play based on positioning rather than pure athletic ability. I don't know if he will be able to do this, and even if he does what use that kind of a player will be to the run and gun Suns. I don't think his career is over, just his style of play. The days of the run and gun beast Amare are now over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
guess we will have to wait and see
to say he won't be ever back to what he was is wrong....he may not but he may still...you can not say for sure at this stage
give him time, thats all he needs
if he isn't what he was, all the suns will hope is that he can give them what he has and that still might get them a title...who knows
Jason Kidd plays his game about 3 inches off the ground, just like Tim. The ones who's careers are ended by this are the high flyers.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Game
Jason Kidd is not near the athlete that he was before. But his biggest strengths that he brings to the game are his size as a PG, and arguably the best court vision in the league. These 2 things do not depend on athletic ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Game
Jason Kidd is also one of the most SKILLFUL players in the NBA. Amare is not. He is an athletic freak. Take away any of that athleticism, and he is just another tall guy.
No, No, No... It is as close to physically impossible as it gets for him to come back 100% or even 90% athletically. It won't happen. Only the graces of GOD himself can bring that kind of miracle. It can't happen and it won't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Game
how on earth would you know? ever had that kind of surgery? you are just GUESSING...you have no clue if he can comeback to be what he was.
you aren't a doctor, if they think he can comeback to what he was. then he can. It's only down to amare..no one else
Once he misses more time this year and can barely get any lift when he is in a game - come back here talk to me. 100%. Won't. Be. Done. Period.
I played college football until I had a bad knee injury and had to have surgery. I know what it feels like - and if 1 year later you can't do anything without pain - that's a very, very bad sign. Never 100% for the rest of his life.
Thats another IFQuote:
Originally Posted by BeerIsGood!
reports from friday's practise was amare played without pain. fact is he might feel some pain here and there. who wouldn't after a long lay-off? fact is when he has played he has looked good enough thus far in pre-season but obviously rusty...he has already threw down some nasty dunks already.
not saying he is back or anything but he has showed far more than any other guy who has had the surgery this soon...
it is a wait and see thing with amare
the suns goal is to win a title obviously so they are going to have to wait and maybe with time he can help them get there this year. wether he is the old amare or not
I know you're hoping beyond hope...Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Game
I hate to see this happen to a guy given how fun he was to watch...
But the list of guys whose vertical game was ruined by the surgery is long, and the list of guys who returned to previous form is null.
If Amare were going to bounce back, he would have by now. It's been a year. It was supposed to be six months, then nine months. He was supposed to be fine by now. Now he has arthritis in his other knee. The months keep peeling off the calendar. When will he be ready now, January? February? And then he has to get back into shape. 2006-07 is probably a wash.
So now we're talking two full years where Amare is basically out.
You bring up Jason Kidd. Jason Kidd's athleticism was hurt by the surgery. However, Jason Kidd is a cerebral player with a lot of other skills, so he is able to compensate and still be effective. He does not have to play above the rim.
Amare is going to have to learn to be that kind of player, much like Antonio McDyess did.
It doesn't look good. I'm sorry. You can tell us all we're not doctors, but the doctors are 0-for-whatever in bringing superstar players back to previous form following microfracture.
I'm not happy about it. It's bad for the game for this to happen.
As we said at the outset of this thread, Antonio McDyess is probably the best comparison here - a freakishly athletic guy whose knees crapped out on him, who missed 2-3 yrs before adjusting his game to being a high level reserve.
I hope Amare has more luck than McDyess did and is able to return to some semblance of his old ability, but it certainly will require him to change his game and up his skill level to be a productive player.