Parker or Ginobili: Who Takes the Bigger Next Step?

Which young foriegn player in our backcourt do you think will step up the most this season?

Between Ginobili and Parker, which guard do you think will clearly seperate himself as the superior player?

To me, it is a tough call.

While I think Manu brings more intangibles to the table, I feel like Parker is going to assume more a leadership role on this team and establish himself as a consistent, second star for the Spurs, with Manu being the third-best Spur as a jack-of-all-trades.

What do you peeps think?

Manu will because he is the more complete player (def. a better passer) and stronger defensivley, i also think his abitity to score is very similar to parker's, that is one of the reasons that i consitently said Parker was worth Manu money, i never thought he was really worth 66 million dollars, but when adriyan foyle gets a 42 million dollar extension...

I agree to some extent.

I think Parker will get most of the notoriety and a lot of credit for becoming a dependable scorer. If his jump shot has really improved like he says it has, he'll be difficult to defend. He'll certainly get the most opportunities.

Manu will do all the little things and he'll score some points just because he'll get more playing time. I think he'll gain some respect as an above-average defender. I've always criticized him for gambling on defense, but I'm hoping that his two years in the league have taught him how to stay in front of his man. He anticipates as well as anyone on both ends of the court.

Of course, neither is a guaranteed thing. Our latest memories of Parker include his performance against the Lakers when he couldn't score and couldn't get shots for his teammates. And with Manu, some would argue that he's reached his ceiling and we've seen the best he has to offer. I think it's reasonable for us to expect improvement from both. I think it will happen, but it isn't a sure thing.

I agree. Ginobili's talents are not always obvious on the balance sheet - he'll win games for you, but won't throw up lots of points. Parker will turn into a star this year in a more obvious way, as the second scorer. I just don't believe Manu has it in him to be a big-time scorer in this league - even in the Olympics he was more of a spot scorer. Parker is different. Both are valuable.

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I feel like Parker is going to assume more a leadership role on this team and establish himself as a consistent, second star for the Spurs, with Manu being the third-best Spur as a jack-of-all-trades.

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I agree. I think Parker is ready to turn the corner and take his game to the next level.

Manu, if and only he gets to shoot and drive it to the hoop more.

Parker or Ginobili: Who Takes the Bigger Next Step?

Gino definitely takes longer steps when he goes to the basket, so my v-dollar's with Gino for his next step. :hat

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Between Ginobili and Parker, which guard do you think will clearly seperate himself as the superior player?

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I believe and hope that they'll both seperate themselves as superior players in different ways. I think Parker's ppg are going to be phenomenal as a result of Manu's Mad amount of assists he is going to rack up this year. And with Beno and Barry in the mix as well, we are gonna get so many open looks it is gonna be ridiculous.

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While I think Manu brings more intangibles to the table, I feel like Parker is going to assume more a leadership role on this team and establish himself as a consistent, second star for the Spurs, with Manu being the third-best Spur as a jack-of-all-trades.

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I could'nt agree more

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Originally Posted by Solid D

Parker or Ginobili: Who Takes the Bigger Next Step?

Gino definitely takes longer steps when he goes to the basket, so my v-dollar's with Gino for his next step. :hat

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r
right on! :lol

I agree with everything Ghost said....

I would also prefer Parker to increase his scoring, Manu is older by 5 or so years, as a result his growth isn't as important when you consider the long term future of the organisation. If Parker becomes a consistent star at his age.. look out world.

well i think its funny that everyone thinks Parker is the better scorer, history shows us tha Ginobili does more with less time and has the better all around game, and as far as the olympics, i have to disagree, big game after big game for Ginobili and a huge preformance against team usa.

I think that as between the two, Tony is the superior talent and is closer to being at the top of his position. That's not to say that Manu is a poor man's anything. But I think (and the Spurs seem to think) that Tony is simply the better player.

With some of the "proving himself" pressure gone, I'd expect Parker to settle down and rise a notch or two this season. He's said he's going to work on getting his teammates involved, and if he does that, he's going to make that rise -- to me its a sign of his maturity and his understanding of what Pop wants out of him. If he plays like he did in March-April-early May last year, the kid will be a load. If he raises his assists by 1.5 or 2 per game, and marginally increases his scoring, he's going to be securely in the Nash/Bibby-type range of PG, which makes him a borderline all-star every year. I just expect great things from the kid.

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Manu will do all the little things and he'll score some points just because he'll get more playing time. I think he'll gain some respect as an above-average defender. I've always criticized him for gambling on defense, but I'm hoping that his two years in the league have taught him how to stay in front of his man. He anticipates as well as anyone on both ends of the court.

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I think Manu is already an above average defender. Not quite elite like Bowen, but very valuable in his own way. The guy just disrupts a defense with all of his deflections and steals. Lots of times his steals are on passes his own man throws, most great thiefs get their steals by picking players pockets on their way to the basket or stepping into passing lanes.

Manu had a few games where his gambles were boneheaded and hurt the team. But I truly think his gambles pay off a lot more than not. I actually read a scouting report on him once that actually said he is able to gamble and suceed a lot more often times than not. I also looked back on some old scouting reports on some past defenders and even under Scottie Pippen's name it said likes to gamble a lot and it doesn't always pay off, but he still was rated as a perfect defender.

I am not saying Manu has ELITE containment defense. But as a team defender he is very disruptive, creates a lot of turnovers through drawing charges and deflections, and is probably a bit above average in terms of containment D. Thus I would say overall if you factor his containment man-to-man D, and team D, he is a very valuable and above average 2 guard defender.

Back to the original topic.

If I had to guess I would say TP will seperate himself as the better player. The reason is simply cause he will likely be the better and more consistent scorer.

If we are talking about overall value and talent to the team I thought it was very close last season. Parker was the better scorer in terms of consistency and scoring more with extra shot attempts, but Ginobili was more well rounded and gave more intangibles when his shot was off.

Parker should seperate himself a bit more by improving his shot, scoring consistency, and floor general skills. If he does that Manu will likely be the bonafide third option, with Tony as the second.

I like Manu's game a lot, but I'm not sure he can improve too much in the scoring department. He has the ability to it seems, but I'm not sure if he will capatilize on it.

Eventually Parker will be the clear second best player. Right now he is the second option, but I don't think hes proven to be clearly a better overall player yet. The advantage might be slight, but he has to live up to his talent to truly be a great 2nd option for this team. He probably will this season.

Manu just has to score a little more at a similiar efficiency as last season, but also cut down on turnovers. If he could make those chippy layups then that would be very nice.

This one is easy. The perception of most fans is that the better player is the guy that scores the most. Points per game is the ultimate statistic for 90% of the fans. Based on the characteristics of the players and the system the Spurs use, Parker will naturally score more.

Parker has the ball in his hands 50% of the time and shots more. Pop is perfectly fine with Tony shooting more as well. Marginal improvements in FG% (up to 8%) by any player are only equivalent to less that 1 shot per game at the rate that Parker and Gino shoot the ball. So the most important factor for PPG is shot attempts, and Parker has a clear advantage by design.

If the notion would be some more integral efficiency metric, Manu has a clear edge. He contributes more in all facets of the game, and has consistently increased his efficiency in the playoffs in the last 2 years. Last playoffs, Manu was 7th in efficiency and 1st in efficiency/min among all shooting guards (better eff/min than Kobe!). He was also top 10 in eff/min among all players in the playoffs (Duncan was 6th).

I just read an interview where Manu said he is fine with parker being the second option. He also said he doubts he could ever make an all star game.

Not that the all star game means anything, but Im not sure I like the idea of him defering too much. He will be needed to score whether Parker becomes a very good section option or not.

I would hope Manu keeps working hard and actually wants to be a better scorer and overall player this season. Perhaps he does not like to talk about making all star games or whatever -- he seems a bit humble in general. But I just hope deep down he feels he can grow as an NBA player, not neccesarily an all star, but maybe close.

If he doesn't beleive that he could be a better player, than I would worry a bit.

Bottom line is Manu needs to be more consistent in scoring on MORE shot attempts, while cutting his turnovers (or increasing his assists if his TOPG stay nearly the same).

Efficiency stats might say he is a very good player, but at some points he needs to maintain that efficiency with MORE shots. He needs to score more consistently, or at least cut the turnovers. Otherwise, he probably won't improve as a player nor even be close to the second best player on the team (unless TP doesn't grow much at all, which is unlikely).

Tony goes off on occasion. That game he had at Boston last year was incredible. He is pretty much unstoppable if he's knocking down his jumper.

But Manu has that chutzpah or whatever it's called. When he starts to warm up, you just feel like he's going to do something amazing every trip down the court. The game he had against Sactown last season was legendary. The dunk and the threes against the Cavs was insane. And the three consecutive three pointers at Chicago was Jordanesque.

I think Manu will make the All-Star team this season because he will stand out as one of the premier two guards in the NBA. Tony will probably have to wait a year but who knows, maybe both will make it.

Excellent analysis here by everyone, especially RVB and Nikos.

I am counting on Parker to emerge as the second-best Spur, but it's evident to me so far that Manu is.

Ginobili has been sensational so far this season.

Manu can cut to the basket whenver he wants thus far.

I dare say that he is a better playmaker than Parker. He can create for himself and others.

I want Parker to be more than a shoot-first undersized SG playing the point.

I want him to make the right decisions for the team and himself.

Parker has been on the Spurs long enough to garner the respect of his teammates and assert himself as team leader.

Scoring points is overrated.

P.S.

The Sonics announcer (might've been Craig Ehlo) said Manu is probably the Spurs best perimeter player. Bold.

Agreed. Manu will become a better shooter and a Complete Playmaker.

Parker will be traded. Of course, i'd love to be wrong here, and I'm rooting for TP to make my statment moot and idiotic. We shall see.

Parker is not gonna be traded.

Is he?


I will be pissed if that b1tch Kidd comes here ina deal. Let him suffer on NJ's IL.

Parker is going nowhere.

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Scoring points is overrated.

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Not on the Spurs. The Spurs are a team without a proven second scorer. Manu has done a good job so far, but it's unclear if he'll be able to remain consistent enough to be a reliable scorer every day.

The Spurs lost in the playoffs last season because they couldn't score points. They've failed in past years because they couldn't score points.

On the Spurs, scoring points isn't overrated. It's the key to their success this season.

That's fine, Brodels, but the PG's primary role is to create scoring opportunities for the team as a whole.

Parker needs to not just look for his own shot and set up his teammates.

Duncan and even Rasho are skilled at finishing on breaks.

Manu finds open players on the perimeter after his dribble-drives more than Parker.

Take a look at the stat sheet, Manu is filling it up this year.

Answer to question: #20.

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That's fine, Brodels, but the PG's primary role is to create scoring opportunities for the team as a whole.

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Traditionally, yes. But it doesn't have to be that way on the Spurs. The Spurs won two seasons ago with Parker being a scorer more than a distributor. Other successful point guards are scorers first and distibutors second. Guys like Marbury, Iverson, Francis, and Davis have all found success by scoring points and getting teammates shots too.

Parker needs to set up his teammates for easy buckets, but he needs to be a scorer first. Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, Brent Barry, and Beno Udrih are all better at getting their teammates good looks. That's O.K. The Spurs have lost of options when it comes to creating scoring opportunities for others. It doesn't need to be Parker.

The Spurs will struggle at times to score points. Parker is arguably the second-best scorer on the team. If you ask him to create opportunities for his teammates first and score second, you're taking away his greatest strength and highlighting one of his weaknesses.

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Parker needs to not just look for his own shot and set up his teammates.

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He needs to do both. But Parker is a scoring point guard. He needs to score if the Spurs are going to be successful.

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Duncan and even Rasho are skilled at finishing on breaks.

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Rasho is not skilled at finishing on breaks. Manu, Duncan, and Barry are very good though.

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Manu finds open players on the perimeter after his dribble-drives more than Parker.

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You're right. But in my mind, that's O.K. The Spurs don't need to stick to the traditional model to be successful.

Well Manu said before the game last night that this is really the first time he's felt comfortable so hopefully he will have a great year and so will Parker.

Brodels, if Parker wants to go from being a hyped-up young PG to an upper crust player in this leahue, he has to do more than run around and shoot.

In today's NBA, can you name me one starting PG that isn't asked to score?

Saying the Spurs need Parker to score is obvious. When you have Bowen as your starter, you need everyone to fill it up.

The Spurs would be more successful if he was a more well-rounded PG.

People bestow all this praise on Parker like he's a top 5 PG. I'm still not sure if he is top 10. Maybe top 15.

Until he can show me that he can be a leader, drop 6+ assists per game and consistently be a factor in multiple games in a row, he's still an up-and-comer to me.


P.S.

And Rasho is better than you think at catching a ball in transition and laying it in. We're just so used to see him clumsily flubbing around in the half court.

Where is Brodels?

Parker is not an All-Star yet, people.

He needs to be a more complete PG.

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Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

Where is Brodels?

Parker is not an All-Star yet, people.

He needs to be a more complete PG.

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I didn't say that he was. If you bothered to stick around then you would realize that I've been harder on Parker than any other person in this forum over the past month. I don't think he's an all-star either, and he certainly isn't top five right now.

That having been said, you need to look less at what makes traditional point guards great and more at what the Spurs need from the position. Sure, Parker needs to improve his playmaking ability. But he needs to be a score-first point guard. They need him to score points more than anything else.

Fact: The Spurs have several quality playmakers in Barry, Manu, Duncan, and Beno.

Fact: The Spurs don't have a consistent second scorer and have only one player of consistently putting up 20 points throughout the course of a season.

The Spurs can survive with Barry, Manu, Duncan, and Beno as the playmakers. They need someone to score points this season, and Parker is the best choice.

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I will be pissed if that b1tch Kidd comes here ina deal. Let him suffer on NJ's IL.

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Why? After all, the Spurs don't have any real talent outside of Duncan, right?

My answer is: both at the same time.

With TD taking up so much attention, you might be able to focus a little more on either Manu or TP, but certainly not both. If a team perceives one of these two players to be more of a threat, then that leaves the court more open for the other player.

hmmm.... im the only one who said manu would be better, i need to get some props....

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hmmm.... im the only one who said manu would be better, i need to get some props....

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For what, the season just started.

Team needs both of them to play well.

Manu. He's just a more mature player. He already had a game that just needed adaptation to the NBA. Tony's just barely found his. I think eventually, Tony will be the more "star power" player. I know this sound like a broken record, but he's fucking 22. Manu was already 25 when he hit the league.

I think Manu should be. Manu is getting old and Tony and Pop should let him have his day in the sun.

Brodels, Manu is already a better playmaker than Parker and is emerging as a consistent second scorer.

Parker?

More of the same inconsistency.

If Kidd came to the Spurs, you would expect him to be a score-first PG?

Um, no.

Parker is not a good playmaker, regardless of what you think his primary responsibility is on this team.

Manu will be a superstar...TP will be a well traveled pro.

If Pop would unleash Parker then he would be that playmaker. Just like 4Down, the motion O results in Parker giving up the ball and the decisionmaking rather often.

Pop just needs to let go. He was able to do that with AJ. There's no reason why he can't now with TP.

I'm not sure if it's that simple.

I never saw Parker do a lot of playmaking for France.

I just don't think that playmaking is high on PArker's skill set.

That's why Pop was attracted to Kidd.

P.S.

I would like to see the Spurs run more and Parker be given more liberty to create for himself and others. You're right in that the offense is not conducive to free wheeling, but we do see Barry and Ginobili cutting and passing more than Parker.

Sure, Parker is not a Kidd. Kidd didn't want to play in SA long term. Parker does. Deal with it.

Um, what?

My contention is that even if Pop took the training wheels off, Parker is simply not a great distributor.

There's been no evidence of him racking up assists on any team at any level.

This is not to say that he doesn't have it in him, but we have not seen this.

I dont' think the spurs need a pass-first pg to win it all. Parker, as an adequate passing pg, is fine because of the other positives he brings to the table; his excellent ability to break down an offense with his quickness, clutch play, excellent transition play, adquate 3 pt shooting and decent perimeter d.

If his jumper starts to show up, which according to the summer work he did should happen, his impact will be felt even moreso.

We pass just fine; look at our assist numbers as a team. Our pf% is good, also a mark of a team taking good shots. I am not worried, I think this is a non-issue.

His recent up and down play is unlikely to be chronic; everyone has good and bad games, and our 4 game sample is utterly small. Chill people.

The question about parker this year is when will his scoring consistently go to the next level (18ppg+).

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There's been no evidence of him racking up assists on any team at any level.

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Were you paying attention last season? He certainly put together a number of games with high assist totals.

parker can score that consistently in the run n gun offense. in our offense, no. the wheels fell off of our playoff hopes last year when parker was not allowed to run. whether that was by his choice, pop's choice, or the lakers defense, i do not know. combination?

How exactly is Parker supposed to rack up assists when the Spurs are running a motion O?

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Originally Posted by spursfaninla

I dont' think the spurs need a pass-first pg to win it all. Parker, as an adequate passing pg, is fine because of the other positives he brings to the table; his excellent ability to break down an offense with his quickness, clutch play, excellent transition play, adquate 3 pt shooting and decent perimeter d.

If his jumper starts to show up, which according to the summer work he did should happen, his impact will be felt even moreso.

We pass just fine; look at our assist numbers as a team. Our pf% is good, also a mark of a team taking good shots. I am not worried, I think this is a non-issue.

His recent up and down play is unlikely to be chronic; everyone has good and bad games, and our 4 game sample is utterly small. Chill people.

The question about parker this year is when will his scoring consistently go to the next level (18ppg+).

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Maybe we can win it all with Parker not being a pass first PG, but he sure as hell needs to shoot better than 33% for the Spurs to win it all. If your shot is not going down, start passing more, stop jacking it up.

He can not even make a layup. Last night Barry hit him with a Sports Center highlight pass, but Parker blew the reverse layup and Barry was robbed of an assist and some primetime exposure.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

How exactly is Parker supposed to rack up assists when the Spurs are running a motion O?

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I bet Nash or Kidd could average double digits assists in our offense.

Sure, because Pop wouldn't tell them to give up the rock early in every fucking possession.

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Sure, because Pop wouldn't tell them to give up the rock early in every fucking possession.

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So you think this is a Pop problem, not a Parker problem?

Ultimately it is a Pop problem. I don't think it's TP's call to bring the ball up and immediately give it up all the time.

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Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

Brodels, Manu is already a better playmaker than Parker and is emerging as a consistent second scorer.

Parker?

More of the same inconsistency.

If Kidd came to the Spurs, you would expect him to be a score-first PG?

Um, no.

Parker is not a good playmaker, regardless of what you think his primary responsibility is on this team.

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And there isn't anything wrong with that.

It comes down to this:

- The Spurs can still win if Parker doesn't improve his playmaking skills.

- The Spurs cannot win if Parker doesn't score some points.

His ability to score is more important to the Spurs than his playmaking ability. There are lots of playmakers. There aren't many scorers. It's as simple as that.

Who cares where he falls in relation to other point guards? If he's doing what the Spurs need him to do to win, it doesn't matter. And the Spurs need him to score more than they need him to suddenly get great court vision.

TP would have more leeway to run n gun and score when coming off the bench....if it was to ever come to that....

Parker or Ginobli? My gut tells me it'd have to be Manu. Couldn't tell you why. Just a hunch.

Tony just needs to stop shooting all of those 3s. He can't hit them.

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Originally Posted by desflood

Parker or Ginobli? My gut tells me it'd have to be Manu. Couldn't tell you why. Just a hunch.

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oh god thats a difficult hunch to take now, when manu is 21 ppg with 6 prg and 3 stpg along with shooting 50 percent from the field,

mean while parker is struggling btw, while i said this before the first game.

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Originally Posted by Rynospursfan

Tony just needs to stop shooting all of those 3s. He can't hit them.

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Especially with 15 secs left on the shot clock...he thinks he is Steve Kerr and keeps jacking up 3s all the time. I do not think he is over 20% for the year, for Chissakes.

Parker, you are a point guard!!! Not a shooter!!! Freaking French always have higher opinions of themselves than they should. :rolleyes

Ginobili is the one who will be the next star for the Spurs, not Tony. I would say Tony can be that next star in about two years. Right now, Ginobili is ready to break out and show the NBA he is more than a star in Argentina.

With most Shooting Guards, you only hope for adequate defense and a little rebounding.

Manu's defense is 'inspired madness' that can disrupt an opposing team's offense and demoralize them, especially in one of his crazy streaks.

He's now been in the league long enough, and has the Gold medal confidence, that he will be able to 'bring it' nearly every night.

I've thought that Manu's been bringing it since he came into the league. He just hasn't been rewarded with the mins. and the freedom to do what he does best. He made some risky passes that became TO's and last year he would've been on the bench soon after. This year, life goes on and he is playing like he does for his Argentinean team. In control.

The reason I think Manu's minutes are limited are because of his style of play. I think since he plays so hard, he sits a little more because of the energy that he puts out.

Pop takes Manu out with five/six minutes to go in the first quarter and then puts him back in with a minute or two left in the quarter. He is managing his minutes well. If he plays around 28-31 minutes and the minutes are managed well -- Manu will be able to handle the season. With the energy he puts out, it wouldn't be bright for Pop to play him a whole quarter straight, etc.

I think it's funny how most people here have tried to convince me for a couple years now that Parker is a top 5 PG and he's the second star and all that.

Meanwhile, Manu has actually delivered on a more consistent basis, doing more than simply scoring, but actually contributing across the board.

Of the 2 neither will ever become a dominant force like Duncan. Manu I don't think will ever become a 20 point scorer but rather a stat filler type guy. Someone who can get you 15 pts 6 boards 5 assists 2 steals and 1 block a game. Parker has the best chance of becoming the 20 point scorer but hes never gonna be a high assist man I'd say he tops out around 6-7 a game.

Interesting.

I'd love Parker to get 6-7 assists a game.

Manu can score 18-20 a game. I really think he can.

There's about 10 people in the NBA that are close Duncan's level, Ice.

I'm just looking for someone that might be an All-Star reserve for krissakes.

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I think it's funny how most people here have tried to convince me for a couple years now that Parker is a top 5 PG and he's the second star and all that.

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i think it's funny that you think it's funny GW...

sincerely,

your first post in this thread.

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While I think Manu brings more intangibles to the table, I feel like Parker is going to assume more a leadership role on this team and establish himself as a consistent, second star for the Spurs, with Manu being the third-best Spur as a jack-of-all-trades.

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Manu's improved shooting touch from long range has come out of nowhere, and frankly, i'm very pleasantly surprised.......it would be nice if some of whatever Manu did in the offseason rubs off on TP. :smokin

Not sure your point, bigzak, but every year I'm told thta this is Parker's year and I find myself getting excited over all the hype.

I would still take 10 PGs over Parker today.

Manu is legit.

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Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

I would still take 10 PGs over Parker today.

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Name them.

$10 says he names Jason Hart.

i'd say nash, marbury, and wade right now. 10 pgs in the nba better though? i dunno about that.....

As many high quality takes as I've seen in this forum lately I suppose we need Ghost to average the overall forum quality down a bit.

Ten Superior PGs to Parker
R. Alston
C. Billups
A. Iverson
S. Francis
J. Terry
B. Davis
G. Arenas
S. Nash
M. Bibby
S. Marbury


M. Williams, Z. Planinic, D. Harris, L. Ridnour, M. Jaric and A. Miller are all outperforming Parker.

Old men like K. Anderson and S. Cassell have better numbers thus far.

J. Williams, J. Tinsley and G. Payton are doing better than Parker this year.

Former Spurs PGS like C. Ward, A. Daniels, S. Claxton and J. Hart are all having better seasons than Parker so far.

How my doin'?

Right on cue. Good work, Boxscore Bitch © 2004 MB Enterprises, Inc.

Got [email protected], I don't even know where to begin. Zoran Planinic? Charlie Ward?

:shootme

i'd also say bobby jackson is he could stay healthy and was 10 years younger....but he can't and he isn't....

don't think my replay went thru- can someone explain the difference between shooting guard and point guard to me. Is there a difference. Are there point guards that are also shooint guards? Examples?? thank you all for your patience in having me learn the game, maybe a year from now I can hold a decent conversation with you guys