Lets keep him there please, its working and we need the energy, from a player like him off the bench.
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Lets keep him there please, its working and we need the energy, from a player like him off the bench.
And thus opens the can of worms...
Does Argentina have any historical claim to the Bahamas?
:tuQuote:
Originally Posted by carib
for now :downspin:
it's hard to justify a $52 million contract for someone coming off the bench. those bif bucks are for starters.
So we should make decisions based on payroll as opposed to how well it works basketball wise? Thats ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by beirmeistr
The Spurs don't care about the money when it comes to playing time. What did Steve Smith make $12M? What about Mercer when he got waived? $7M?
That being said. Once Manu gets all the way back, I think he should start.
Eric Williams needs to play more than Bowen, Horry, Elson and Oberto.
Malik Rose was making a lot too. Ginobili has so much energy that I think Barry and Finley would be better starting, as they're spot up shooters that would benefit from playing with Duncan. Ginobili can create his shot at any time, and he can create shots for others. The Spurs starters don't need more help creating shots.
No need to let blatant pride get in the way of logic, IMO. I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I think it's at least worth trying for a while. Props to Pop for not rushing a comeback, and Ginobili for being so professional about it. Just my 2 cents
Ginobili coming off the bench would be turn him into the biggest bench weapon in the league. I've long been for the move.
Manu coming off the bench makes the Spurs deadly for 48 minutes a night.
Ginobili do not rush it back, do it for the team, its working great. Its about the lineup that works.
Pop keep doing what you are doing, its about the ring. I am sure that we have a team of professional players.
the title should read like this
Ginobili Has found his place, on the bench
One thing for sure, whenever Beno's on the floor Ginobili should be on the floor too.
Pretty good point. Manu is the better ballhandler and it'd free up Beno to be more of a spot up shooter and off the ball slasher.Quote:
Originally Posted by picnroll
That's how the Slovenian national team uses Beno -- as a combo guard paired with another combo guard (in their case it's Sani Becirovic). Unless one day Beno wakes up more athletic, I don't think Beno will ever become the classic point guard Spurs fans thought he'd become.
But really, if Beno is a scorer coming off the bench, that's fine as long as he limits his mistakes and plays decent defense.
Same old story.
Every year the same.
These are good points. When Manu is in the game with Tony and Tim he can get lost in the shuffle.
What Pop did tonight with the rotations was a good thing i think. He seemed to bring in a large group at once for the second unit. Beno, Manu, Brent, and Elson seemed to do pretty well together. The white guys really play well together.
I think we should stick with this. The only downside is that Finley gets too many minutes in general, and when he's out there with with Tony there is very little ball movement. Still, I like the idea of a whole new second unit coming in to give a different look.
Both Sean Elliot ( during the broadcast) and Coach Newman ( post game radio show) said Beno played well.
As long as he gets 30 minutes at the end of the day, I don't really care if he starts or not. But the less he plays with Tony, the better it seems.
Yeah, he should be starting. Save the brilliant move of bringing him off the bench for the day we lose a playoff game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by timvp
There you go again, mixing the words, good, fine, defense and Beno within the same post.
:dizzy
I don't mind him coming off the bench. It seems like he has a lot more room to play like himself instead of giving it all to Tim and Tony when he starts. Beno, Barry, and Manu all seem to play well with each other anyway. As long as he gets the same minutes he usually gets (once he gets healthy) then I'm fine with it.
We have all seen that Manu has started the season slowly. He can come off the bench and still get 28-32 minutes a game. If he comes off the bench, he's out there more time without Tim and Tony, which means he gets more shots and maybe he gets going quicker.
He can still end the game with Duncan and Parker, even if he comes off the bench. It's a little funny to me how many Manu fanatics care a bit too much about him starting when I'm sure he cares much more that he plays well and the Spurs win.
If only we found a decent shooting guard we could make play D and start, then we'd have the greatest bench player in the league. He'd be like Van Exel of Mavericks 2003.
He could be our Stackhouse. As much as I hate Stack, when he comes off the bench he's deadly because he's matched up with the other teams bench players who aren't as good and he gets more touches against them and it works out well for him.
Its just a way to make our 2nd team that much more deadly while not really harming the first team. I hadn't even though of the benefit to Beno PNR mentioned but that makes perfect sense. Beno looked good tonight shooting spot up jumpers as opposed to trying to be Parker Jr. and chucking up runners.
I thought manu had to play with oberta since he was from his country
but manu playing with beno is smart
or beno playing with barry to is smart
Exactly! Wherever he fits in the rotation, it doesn't matter, as long as he plays 25-35 mins a night.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
He could score 18-20 off the bench if we pitted him against the other teams' second units, and when we need him in with the starters, use him there.
And yes, now that he's in shape, Eric Williams should play 15 minutes a night behind Bruce, or even more if Bruce is having a tough night.
it should be obvious to anyone who has watched the spurs the last 4 years that the team is much more dangerous and deadly with manu coming off the bench. there is a dominace to that substitution unlike like any other, harkening back to the days of mchale. when he is subbed into the game, it's a tidal wave of energy and offense. i don't know why they won't make this move permanent. some players are bench players and manu fits that role to a tee. this is not a knock on the man, just an observation of his talents. like the old adage goes, it's not who starts the game, but who finishes.
Cousey never started.
Shit, does this really come up every year :lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kermit
oooh a tidal wave of offense!!!
:downspin: :downspin:
:downspin:
:downspin:
:downspin: :downspin:
:downspin: :downspin: :downspin:
:downspin: :downspin: :downspin: :downspin:
pretend that bill walton saying that and it makes perfect sense.
do you also accuse champagne of being apple cider?
My pipe dream is to get a good rebounding small forward and start him in place of Manu and slide Bowen to shooting guard ... much like the Spurs did when they had Hedo.Quote:
Originally Posted by LaMarcus Bryant
Not only does that solve the rebounding problem (that 2003-04 team was the best rebounding team in modern Spurs history), it allows Bowen to avoid the matchups that most trouble him (Artest, LeBron, etc).
The reason it works so well is Manu plays as well, if not better, off the bench. He comes in and attacks right away. It's such an advantage to have a guy come in and dominate the way Manu does.
One problem with this theory is that as it stands, the Spurs have no one to really fill that rebounding small forward role. Finley and Barry aren't good enough defenders or rebounders. Oddly enough, the player this strategy would work best with is Eric Williams. But I don't see him starting anytime soon :drunk
Don't know why not.Quote:
Oddly enough, the player this strategy would work best with is Eric Williams. But I don't see him starting anytime soon
After he gets into shape, go ahead and put him in there.
Hes long, rebounds, defends, and seems to have his shot coming around.
Don't know why it wouldn't work.
Cousy started.Quote:
Originally Posted by T Park
By Bob Cousy, I think T Park meant John Havlicek.Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid D
:hat
sorry got Cousey and Havilcek confused.
The memory gets fuzzy pre 75...
No problem, although Havlicek did start during the back half of his career.
i don't think Manu is 100% okay at all. Lower back injuries take longer to heal. He's just eager to go back and play, you can see his eyes while watching from the bench before playing against the Warriors. He can't stay long sitting & just watching from the sides:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kermit
They are about to go to Lala Land w/ 1 B2B. I hope he can sustain his stamina & strength. He shld play in limited minutes or must come from the bench. It's December and the Spurs are the BEST team during this time.
when ginobili comes off the bench, it DOES hurt his confidence...and he attacks the basket right away because he wants to prove that he should start.....i mean there was an article where Oberto said that he really worked hard so he would start this season and oberto said that manu told him to practice a lot and have patience and Pop will start him...Well Manu has proven himself to Pop and when Finley come to SA...pop told him that the starting position is taken...
I do agree that when tony and tim are on the floor there is little shots manu could take...
Hey y'll may be pop can bench tony .....and play manu the first 5 minutes and then put tony may be he has some kind of Energy he can bring.
But either way, gino is making $52 million so I don't think Pop will bench him....not after 2005 playoffs...
$52 million for this season? damn.
i think you meant $8,250,000. pop sit that much and not feel bad about it. hell, mike finley is making $19,000,000 this year. think pop thought twice about bringing him off the bench as it benefited the team?
if it hurts his confidence to come off the bench, then he's a pussy.
well, think about it, gino has 2 rings, gold medal blah blah blah.....some europian stuff also....he is 29 (the years when he can play 27-30 minutes) the years when he can be effective as a starter and then when he is 32-....then he can off the bench....of course it's going to hurt his confidence...he is a human beingQuote:
Originally Posted by Kermit
(don't you think that tony's confidece will be hurt if he is benched or whoever)
I think a real professional shouldn't get caught up in who starts the game. It should come down to who is getting the crunch time minutes. If Manu is playing better off the bench, then that should be taken into consideration in the lineups. Right now it's happening because of injury. If the ego starts getting in the way, that's when I've got an issue with things.
Hopefully, all the decisions will be based solely on what is best for the team.
Coming off the bench should not be seen as a demotion as long as it helps the team, and as long as Manu is there when it matters most... in 4th quarter crunch time.
He will still see the same amount of minutes....
Gee people... this isn't soccer. On a loaded team like the Spurs, being the sixth man does not mean that Manu <<< whomever the starting two guard happens to be. He is the Man. Which means that when Manu subs in - he immediately becomes the focal point of offense; whereas when he starts alongside Tony and Duncan they are the focal points of offense. It really diminishes our effectiveness when our three main offensive weapons are all on the floor at the same time with the limited number of shots that our system produces.
Granted if Pop ever changed the style to an up and down "small ball" style of play where the offense would generate about 10-15 more shots per game then and only then does a maximation of the overlapping minutes of the team's best offensive combination make sense. Otherwise the offensive focus needs to be staggered by subbing in Ginobili.
This should boost his confidence, not hurt it.
Im a manu homer and i prefer he comes off the bench. mostly because it allows him more time with the ball. of course, to finish games its best to have the big 3 out there together.
Who told you that? :huhQuote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel20
Manu´s professional too. He will be hurt if he can´t help his teamates.
anyway, Manu will be starter again but he can be effective off the bench.
i say leave manu on the bench. pop's rotations have been outstanding and very successful for the past 2 games. if it ain't broke don't fix it. plus this allows one of the big 3 to be scorers to be on the floor for the entire 48 minutes. and, dare i say it, manu is a better facilitator of the offense than either of tony's backup's.
by the way that crossover on hermann and layup over Omeka was just sick :downspin: :clap :hungry: :elephant
why waste the time on this? Manu will obviously be starting soon.
It's a good idea for many of the reasons already stated.
ESPN showed a stat line last night for Ben Gordon. He's averaging a couple more minutes a game coming off the bench, with more points and a higher FG %. Some players are just better in certain roles, and I think Manu is one of those 6th Man spark-type players.
Having said that, it won't happen, unless it's a temporary situation (i.e. Playoffs)
title of the thread should read when Manu plays spurs win. in the past i was never for him coming of the bench because the strategy only worked a few times and failed most others. However, this year playing him limited minutes seems reasonable, say 15-20 minutes night.
I think it has to do with "touches." Manu is more effective it seems like off the bench because he becomes the focal point on offense. When he is in the w/Tim and Tony, he doesn't get as many shots for him to be really effective. When he starts, the Spurs run 4 down and that ends up with Tim taking the shot or him passing out when opposing teams double team. This prevents Manu from taking to the basket because the paint area is clogged up.
Manu off the bench opens up that paint area because Tim's not in there and opposing teams aren't double teaming. I think a second unit w/Manu, Elson, Barry, Udrih, and Horry is great. You can even have Finley in there instead of Barry.
Where did you come up with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by T Park
I think its a good idea. Manu doesn't mind coming off the bench, and anybody who claims he does, does so because of emotion rather than logic. Not only would the Spurs benefit from the added energy off the bench, but as many have already stated, Manu would be the focus of the offense this way.
It amazes me how people still haven't gotten over the whole "bench = demotion" crap after all that has happened between 2004-2005 playoffs and now.
Wrong again. Havilicek didn't start in his first few years in the league and was the 6th man. But after the retirement of some guard (Sam Jones comes to mind for some reason) Havilicek moved into the starting lineupQuote:
Originally Posted by T Park
I hear good arguments from both sides: He should start; He should come off the bench.
How about this: Play that fool all 48 minutes or until he drops. Ride the strong horse.
He would drop in a week.
Manu against another team's bench is a terror. It would put a lot of pressure on their squad. This also alleviates Parker's tendency to dominate the ball, which he can go ahead and do, with Finley more of a spot shooter.
First line (hockey style): establish Duncan and Parker.
Second line: bring in Barry, Udrih, Horry and Ginobili, get ball working around.
It puts a slasher into each unit.
'05 Manu was a starter in the playoffs and ended as a starter. Him coming off the bench worked maybe twice. Two other times it was a disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc
However, this year I'm all for it.
How about bringing Tony off the bench? He would be a good energizer and we could gave a strong scorer/slasher that can create his own shot. And we would have Manu playing with Beno as some posters suggested.
Tony isn't anything w/out Tim in the lineup.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanvannen
Whoa. I disagree with that one big time. Remember how Tony stepped up last year when Timmy sprained his ankle in Detroit? Remember those 2 OT b2b wins last season? (edit) Actually 2 seasons ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by MoSpur
It would be nice if the team still had a Hedo/SJax type of SF. Hedo was a very good rebounder -- that season the Spurs were an elite rebounding team.
I don't really know if it matters much if Manu comes off the bench or not. His confidence is usually pretty high in both situations. Not sure it would make a huge difference, unless they could replace him with a good SF who can rebound. Barry and Finley don't exactly fit the bill.
Speaking of rebounding Manu has been great so far this season in that regard. Could be a little flukish though.
I like Manu off the bench because, as others have said, he would play against the other team's bench to start off, which works in favor of the Spurs. Of course, he would play his 25-35 mins a game as usual, and would definitely be in at the end. The biggest advantage would be that the Spurs wouldn't fall behind in the first half like they have been doing recently. A spark off the bench that the other team has to worry about, and that can help eliminate a deficit or extend a lead.
Borosai, give us a break. Dump either the sig or the avatar. :lol
We've seen Manu at the 05 level for maybe 3 collective quaters since 05. Its safe to say things are different now.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
Tony can safely handle playing 40 minute. Manu can not.Quote:
Originally Posted by vanvannen
Last time he was coming off the bench he said he didn't like it but that he would deal with it and that it wasn't his decision.Quote:
Originally Posted by MaNuMaNiAc
So what makes you so sure he doesn't mind. :lol
A week? Try two games.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
Here's the thing. An Average 29 year old starter should be playing more like 35-40 minutes on any given night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Emanuel20
To be fair TP or Duncan are not playing close to 40 minutes. Actually neither of them is playing 35 minutes.
True, but likely TP/Duncan/Bowen will end up averaging 34-35 mpg, while Manu averages 27-28. I think that was Manny's point. That Ginobili never averages starter type minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikos
you're exagerating. last year he willed the '05 level through injuries when the spurs absolutely had to have it.Quote:
Originally Posted by manuel
This year is too early, but him coming off the bench will save him come playoff time.
I just don't see what advantages there are to the team to have him starting. He doesn't play a large amount of minutes so its not like we need him in there for the first 5-7 minutes of a game. He changes the game far more when he comes off of the bench, he plays the same amount of minutes against lesser competition and lesser defense, and he works with the 2nd unit much more efficiently because they all pass well and he's the center of the offense. He finishes out the games, so he's in there at the most crucial point.
Now, give me the advantages to having him as a starter?
.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
he's the leader of the team and as he goes so does the team.
True, it is an exageration, but the fact is that Manu did not play at the same level last year that he did in 05. If anyone thinks that he did, they are either underrating his 05 year or overrating his 06 year. Even this past summer he didn't have his best WC. The man has mentoined that he's trying to change his game and that he's lost a bit of confidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
I LOVE Manu. I'm not knocking him. I just think he has physical limitations which do not go well with his wreckless abandon and because of that we should try to reserve him as much as possible.
The leader?
Gee, guess Duncan should go to the bench then.
you're overly dramatic. Down the stretch of the biggest games the guy who has the ball and the offense starts through is Manu. There is a reason for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Oh snap! I've been called out on my man-ass fetish! :dramaqueeQuote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
As soon as I install gimp, I will work some magic. :spin
Do whatever works.
So it really doesn't matter if he starts then?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
And this changes if he doesn't start? On the contrary I think Manu taking a bench role would be showing a lot of leadership.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
Come again?Quote:
Originally Posted by 2centsworth
Quote:
he's the leader of the team and as he goes so does the team.
I would not mind seeing Manu off the bench and playing 28-30 minutes for a couple more games.
He's going to be playing 28-30 minutes a game all season whether he starts or comes off the bench.
I think people need to NOT think that if you are not a starter, then you are lesser of a player. Starter or Bench are equally important. Manu has always played better off the bench and this DOES NOT implicate that he is lesser of a player than Parker. In fact, I think Manu has far more significant impact in a game than Parker. But then, it is probably better if he can start on the bench.
It all goes back to the fact that Manu's most loyal supporters will usually hail from Argentina, and in Argentina the ruling sport is soccer... and in soccer the bench role is usually reserved for less talented players...
The disconnect is that they (those taking exception to the notion of Manu coming off the bench) don't realize that the concept is not translative.
Granted this is not meant to deride Argentineans... I'm just writing this to show that perhaps this is where they are coming from.
I really don’t care, if Manu keeps playing this way and gets in good shape for the playoffs it’s all good in the hood.
Manu off the bench is my vote - but none of our votes matter :lol
you just ask for a reason in support of him starting. Early momentum and confidence is very important. Have you ever noticed how people play much better when they have early game success. Getting off to the right start is important.Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
However, I'm in favor of Manu going to the bench and playing limited minutes because the Spurs are a more veteran team.
There can be more than one leader :lolQuote:
Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
I don't know, whatever works best for the Spurs. I don't really care as long as Manu gets enough playing time, although two games shouldn't be a glaring indicator. If Finley is stinking it up, then put Manu back in the starting role. Before he got that back contusion, we were winning games WITH Manu starting too, you know.
Before that contusion...
If Manu had to play off the bench for the rest of the year and next year, he would always win the six man award, there is no better six man in the NBA.
He would be the best six man in the NBA !
Advantages are when he finds his groove the team will start games stronger on average. Having your three best offensive players on the floor can only help, not hurt. It sounds like a fresh idea -- Manu coming off the bench and all, but is it really any different then just saying "Manu your going play 3-4 minutes less than your usual 30?".Quote:
Originally Posted by MannyIsGod
To me it doesn't really make a difference where he plays. I don't think it helps or hurts very much. Maybe the label of a bench player would annoy Manu a little bit -- but I doubt it will rattle his game nor do wonders for it. The guy when he is playing well is a very good player who is prone to having some bad games where he appears lethargic (namely back to backs). Making him a bench player isn't going to make the team better or worse.
I doubt Manu is interested in that award. Where's the glory in torching bench players, when Manu's proven to be starter material?
It's like celebrating being overqualified.
That kind of injury just takes a couple weeks. It just hurts and hampers you for a bit. He'll be fine when he gets over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by v2freak
.
I think he should like being the 6 man
why he would be the go to guy with the other subs
play 30 minuts a game
help beno with the bringing the ball up
it would actually be a promation not demotion
will Manu start against LA
They have Finley in the starting lineup so I would say no
What I dont understand is why Pop can't make an educated decision of whether or not manu will start based on our opponent's lineup and past performances against them.
Its clear sometimes he is best off the bench but also clear that sometimes he is best to start the game. Why does it have to be black and white?