Bruce Bowen's Value

I've been saying for years that Bowen is probably the worst starting small forward in the NBA. I gave you people a pass a couple seasons ago, when he could at least slow down top scorers and hit 3s with efficiency.

Now Bowen gives up at least 20 to whoever he is guarding, doesn't hit many 3s and still can't hit 2s or FTs.

He hasn't contained Kobe in years. We don't need him to now without Shaq there.

Can the Bowen supporters please show me the value in Bruce Bowen?

It's getting near impossible to justify him.

He's baaaaaaaack!

:lol


Seriously, I mean... even the ardent homer can't justify Bowen getting signifigant minutes, let alone starting for us.

Bowen gets scored on by everyone these days.

I think this could be his last year as a spur

especially if the new d rules hurt him

would you keep bowen over rose if holt is to cheap to keep both?

I think they are waiting to see if LJ III can fill the role, they will keep bowen to teach him the game. Moreover LJIII will have a better time defending on long 3

With Bowen in the game:

Stojakovic: 3-9
Bryant: 4-11
Allen: 6-11

If Bowen continues to have games like last night, I'd agree with you... but even at 3 games into the season, I don't think there's anything to panic about.

Quote:

---

Now Bowen gives up at least 20 to whoever he is guarding, doesn't hit many 3s and still can't hit 2s or FTs.

---

GW, if this statement of yours holds true, then rest assured, he won't be starting for long....he is still one of the defensive leaders of this ball club, and i'll give him more than 3 games to see if he's lost it or not....

1st Team ALL-NBA D Team and finalist for DPOY.

Whatever you say Casper, whatever you say

Quote:

---

Now Bowen gives up at least 20 to whoever he is guarding, doesn't hit many 3s and still can't hit 2s or FTs.

---

Ray Allen had a good game on him. But that's it. Peja and Kobe shot like crap against him. Bowen never hits 3's in Oct/Nov -- I've been telling everyone that for the last 3 years.

One thing you are right about is that he has to stop trying his "in between" game. It isn't working.

And for the record, (I don't know if you saw the game last night) but Ray Allen got hot when he was being guarded by Devin Brown.

I'm glad it takes one shitty game by the Spurs to bring you out of the woodwork though. Spurs sucked last night -- everyone but Manu. People are praising Tony because he had 21/6 -- but 21 points on 23 shots isn't exactly efficient. They sucked as a team -- rebounding, defense, scoring -- and most importantly aggression.

Hopefully Pop's "soft" and "arrogant" comments will light a fire under them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

I've been saying for years that Bowen is probably the worst starting small forward in the NBA. I gave you people a pass a couple seasons ago, when he could at least slow down top scorers and hit 3s with efficiency.

Now Bowen gives up at least 20 to whoever he is guarding, doesn't hit many 3s and still can't hit 2s or FTs.

He hasn't contained Kobe in years. We don't need him to now without Shaq there.

Can the Bowen supporters please show me the value in Bruce Bowen?

It's getting near impossible to justify him.

---

The situation is more complex than simply believing that Bowen doesn't deserve to start or play significant minutes.

He hasn't been awesome so far this season, but he hasn't regressed much from past seasons. He's still essentially the same player he was two years ago. He played Peja pretty well and did a solid job against Kobe. It's not fair to evaluate his value to the team after three games, especially when he's been doing what's expected of him for the most part.

You have to consider the team's needs and the players available to fill those needs. What's the alternative to having Bowen play big minutes? None of the alternatives are really very good.

You could have Brown play extended minutes instead. But I'm sticking to my claim from preseason: his needs to improve on the defensive end. Watching last night's game hammered that point home for me. If Brown plays big minutes, you either need to trust him to guard Kobe, Ray, Tracy, Lebron, and Peja or have Manu guard those players for extended stretches. I'm not ready to let Brown guard all of the toughest swing men. I think it's bad for Manu, too. Manu expends so much energy out there. It's quite possible that an increased workload for Manu on the defensive end could affect his offense. The Spurs don't need a worn down Manu. And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that Manu would have to stop gambling on defense if he was even to get the job done anyway.

Another alternative is to give Barry big minutes. I think we can both agree that it's unrealistic to expect an (almost) 33 year old Barry to play 36 minutes a game and guard the game's top swingmen part of the time. He's not the best defender anyway, and the Spurs need to limit him to under 30 minutes if they hope to keep him fresh for the playoffs. And if you take him off the second unit, the bench will really lack offensive punch.

The Third might help when he gets back, but we can't really know what he'll provide. He's still very raw, and his offensive game isn't much better than Bowen's if it's any better at all.

And it's unfair to blame the Spurs for failing to come up with a solution over the summer. They used most of their cap space to resign Manu. They used the remainder to address their biggest weakness in the playoffs last season: perimeter shooting. They really needed a shooter like Barry and they got him. With all of the money being given to Parker, Barry, and Manu recently, it's unfair to criticize the Spurs for not improving at small forward. Who could they have brought in instead of Bowen? There really weren't any better answers.

Bowen isn't going to conjure up images of swan lake on the offensive end, but I'm willing to give him some time to see if he'll be able to shoot the three ball consistently. We're only three games into the season.

And with most teams having at least one talented swing player, it's good to have a player like Bowen around. Perhaps Brown should get some more minutes and The Third should get some time when he's healthy. But there aren't any better options right now. You can't have great players at every position. And having an all-NBA first-teamer at small forward is a good thing. Unless you want to see Brown guarding Kobe, Barry playing too many minutes, or Manu getting worn down, you'll have to live with Bowen playing significant minutes.

Give him some time. His defense hasn't regressed.

Ghost, I'm on record saying that Devin Brown is going to start sooner or later.

The thing that is killing Bruce is he's trying to be an "all-around" player. His new thing is to pump fake that three and then drive to about ten feet away from the basket. That move is successful about 10% of the time ... yet he does it over and over again in game.

He just needs to go back to basics. Either shoot that corner three or pass the ball. He's trying to be an All World player instead of a defensive stopper. Pop needs to forbid him from ever dribbling the ball to get him back to how he was playing in 2003.

Another bad sign I saw against the Sonics is Seattle used the same plays the Lakers did to free up Kobe against Bruce ... and it worked for Ray Allen. They set a pick away from the ball (they used Fortson and Jerome James) and Bowen can't fight thru it fast enough. That allowed Allen to get some easy shots early and often.

Brown is never going to start playing that kind of D.

Who can fight through a Fortson/James pick?

Last night Pop messed up on the substitutions too. He left Bowen in when Ray was on the bench (and Bowen picked up his second foul) then he sat Bowen when Ray was getting hot.

Oh well, it's one night.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Brown is never going to start playing that kind of D.

Who can fight through a Fortson/James pick?

---

Brown does a much better job of fighting thru the picks. Bowen does the best job of anyone on the planet in playing one-on-one defense.

The problem is if the whole league starts using that "Kobe Play" that killed Bowen in the playoffs. The Sonics ran the same plays last night.

Hopefully that will not become a trend.

But that same type of play killed Devin too.

Why isn't anyone expressing their dismay concering Lewis killing Manu/Barry? Or our front court being owned by the Sonics front court?

It was a bad night and out of the ordinary.

Move on.

And Brown got lit up one on one.

And was afraid to drive the lane.

Pick your poison, they were equally ineffective.

Quote:

---

Why isn't anyone expressing their dismay concering Lewis killing Manu/Barry?

---

That is pure physics--the guy is half a foot taller than anyone guarding him, as was Radman.

I said in another thread to waive Wilks and get someone to play Lint's role til he heals up -- there are many out there. Doesn't have to be a stopper, just someone who can actually contest a shot from one of these tall forwards out on the perimeter.

Quote:

---

I said in another thread to waive Wilks and get someone to play Lint's role til he heals up -- there are many out there. Doesn't have to be a stopper, just someone who can actually contest a shot from one of these tall forwards out on the perimeter.

---

Yes, I agree with that. There's no point of Wilks.

I wonder how much longer Linton is out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

Last night Pop messed up on the substitutions too. He left Bowen in when Ray was on the bench (and Bowen picked up his second foul) then he sat Bowen when Ray was getting hot.

Oh well, it's one night.

---

I don't think he'll ever get his subsitution down, that's my biggest problem with POP. He sucks at his rotation, always has, always will.

But other than that, IT'S on THE F'ing third game. You guys are unbelivable. :pctoss

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

And Brown got lit up one on one.

And was afraid to drive the lane.

Pick your poison, they were equally ineffective. That is pure physics--the guy is half a foot taller than anyone guarding him, as was Radman.

I said in another thread to waive Wilks and get someone to play Lint's role til he heals up -- there are many out there. Doesn't have to be a stopper, just someone who can actually contest a shot from one of these tall forwards out on the perimeter.

---

I've been saying this since the begning. we still need another atheltic three, even after LJIII comes back.

I've watched all the Spurs games so far this season and portions of just about every game so far. NBA League Pass is tremendous.

I didn't get a chance to post over the weekend, as I was thuggin' and buggin' FRI-SUN.

I did catch the Lakers game SAT night while enjoying Effin Black Cherry Vodka and Diet Cokje. Don't knock it until you try it.

Anyway... my problem with Bowen is that at the end of the day, the Pejas and the Allens and the Kobes still wind up with 20-30 points.

Bowen? 5-10 points.

I noticed that new move Bruce is trying, too, timvp. It's akin to Malik Rose still shooting jumpshots. Good idea, but bad result.

I am hopeful for your boy Devin Brown. I see he is trying to add a 3-point shot, which I had said last year was my big knock on him.

If I had to give Bowen one compliment, it would be that he has mental toughness and plays with heart.

I still think his skill set is vastly limited.

Eddie Robinson anyone?

Bold.

ERob will never come here.

And he sucks.

Again, Bruce's impact goes beyond mere boxscores. Ever notice Kobe focuses on his matchup with Bowen to the exclusion of all else? Completely ignoring his role as facilitator of the offense.

My point is get something that works consistently better if you plan on kicking him to the curb.

Erob and Devin don't come close.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

Eddie Robinson anyone?

Bold.

---

Ghost Writer is baaaaaack.

Quote:

---

I am hopeful for your boy Devin Brown. I see he is trying to add a 3-point shot, which I had said last year was my big knock on him.

---

I talked to him in preseason and he said that he's confident in the 3-pointer now. He said he's going to take a lot of them and make a lot of them this season. The problem for Devin is going to be playing time.

Chump, your point was lost in another so-so offseason, unless you can envision Barry starting at the 3.

Eddie Robinson was a suggetsion more for my own amusement. We know the Spurs refrain from bringing in and/or retaining young, black street player with attitude.

Why would we need any of that when we got a bunch of foreigners or shook players?

Back to the topic at hand... anyone else wish the Spurs got a little younger or more athletic in the offseason?

At least Bowen has [email protected] I'll give him that much.

Rasho starts for the Spurs.

Boy, I am digressing.

You think that Memphis would deal us one of their 9 billion talented swingmen after their horrible start?

I like Barry off the bench. The only real weakness on the Spurs is at SF. It's like a vacuum of talent there.

Is Deven Brown big enough to play/guard at the SF?

Quote:

---

You think that Memphis would deal us one of their 9 billion talented swingmen after their horrible start?

---

To a team within there own division and conference?
Yeah makes sense.


They end up with 20 or 30 points but end up taking 20 or 30 shots.

Once again, who was availablethey shouldve gotten, and who should they have traded.

Bitch, no answers.

Quote:

---

Eddie Robinson was a suggetsion more for my own amusement. We know the Spurs refrain from bringing in and/or retaining young, black street player with attitude.

---

Name someone that can actually get PT on the fucking Bulls next time.

Oh wait -- we already have the guy that beat him out.

Nevermind.

Did you never watch Linton in all those Bull games you claim to have seen or did your ballavision not extend beyond Crawford?

Yes we are size challenged at the swing spots. I have been saying this since Hedo was let go. Nice of you to catch up.

I think Brodels has a lot of sense in his analysis. We is what we is and we got there through market forces.

Bowen is a veteran with good defensive skills who fits into the 'defense first' scheme that defines the Spurs. He may be reacting to everyone's complaint that he can't shoot by trying that pump fake on the three and then driving for the pull up jumper. It ain't working but that's what everyone wanted out of him.

If the NBA had no cap (or the Spurs had more money)...wouldn't it be nice to have Hedo on the bench at 6'10'' for defending some of those long forwards. No? OK.

Wouldn't it be nice if Devin really blossomed this year and picked up some of Bowen's time? Sure. Could happen. Might happen.

We is what we is--and that ain't bad--just three games into a long season.

Hey, T Park and Chump, go fvck yourselves.

Don't get mad at me because your favorite team has flaws.



We never should've let Jackson go.

Crawford was a missed opportunity.

Hedo was never the answer at the 3.

Bowen still is one dimensional.

I'd take Eric Williams over Bowen.

He was available.

Now watch your tone with me, c0cksvckers.

I was calm and cool before you two d1ckheads had to start sh1t.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

We never should've let Jackson go.

---

Brent Barry. Stephen Jackson.

Pick one.

Quote:

---

Crawford was a missed opportunity.

---

Crawford would never ever have come here. Less fables, please.

Quote:

---

Hedo was never the answer at the 3.

---

He sure as hell defended the likes of Odom better.

Quote:

---

Bowen still is one dimensional.

---

No shit. Bring something better than ERob and a brief history of your whining.

Jackson.

And I love Barry for many of the same reasons. Intensity. Vocalism. Skills. Slashing. 3-point shooting.

But Jackson was younger and could've been had for cheaper.

And if we took care of Jackson last, last summer... I am convinced we beat LA and I like our chances against Detroit.

P.S.

Let the record show that Chump and T Park insulted me for no reason. It's like these tricks liked it better when they could just fellate each other online after Spurs games and just lay-low after losses. Well, I'm back to bring the pain.

Let the record show all you brought was ERob.

E

Rob.

Ghost, I think the major difference between the two is Barry has a high basketball IQ while Jack has a history of hitting big shots. So you either have a player who hasn't proven whether he's clutch or an erratic player who hits big shots. Give and take.

This year's playoffs will determine who is right. If Barry hits the big shots that Jack hit, then the Spurs made the right decision. If not, Jack will smile.

Again.

Read, pr1ck.

I mentioned Eddie Robinson half-kiddingly.

You jumped on it just like the cretins who turned a valid statistical comparison between Chris Whitney and Tony Parker into a mantra for homers through Spursdom.

E-Rob is a balla who deserves to be passed over by the Spurs. He truly is devoid of character and work ethic, unlike others who the Spurs simply shy away from because of stereotype.

Name a few foreign players who have a history of bringing it in the playoffs.

Name something to do that doesn't involve using your balla wayback machine.

For once.

:blah

Not that I think Brown is starting-quality, but I'd entertain him over Bowen, especially if he thinks he's found an outside shot. I know his D is not as good as Bowen's, but I still believe that it's better to let your guy score 25-30 and you score 10-15, than yeilding 20-25 and scoring 5-10. You have to make team defenses honor you when you are on offense to open things up for the rest of your team.

Bowen blows.

Too bad Brown wasn't scoring last game either. Might have made an argument for himself.

I try to watch Spurs' games to get a take on them, but I always fall asleep by halftime.

Like I said before, if you could combine the best of Bowen and Brown, you'd have the type of starting swingman we're looking for.

We could call him Stephen Jackson.

GW, I agree with you somewhat on Bowen. His defense is defintely not what it use to be, age will eventually catch up with you. But he still was the best available for what we needed. SJ got mid level 5.4, we couldn't afford him, again.

How is hanging on SJ jock going to help anything. Its done, nothing we can do about it.

You want E. Rob, suggestion I know you were just throwing it out there. But LJ is somewhat similar, so why bother. Who else is out there?

Ghost do you want to have Bowen guarding Manu or Barry in the playoffs?

Hell no we do not want to trade him.

Eric Williams wound up on the Nets this past offseason.

I like him better than Bowen.

E-Rob is not an option.

Eric Williams
MPG - 28
PPG - 4.7
FG% - .211
3P% - .250

Bruce Bowen
MPG - 26.3
PPG - 5.0
FG% - .316
3P% - .429

Thank God GW isn't RC.

Quote:

---

I like him better than Bowen.

---

Why?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

:blah

Not that I think Brown is starting-quality, but I'd entertain him over Bowen, especially if he thinks he's found an outside shot. I know his D is not as good as Bowen's, but I still believe that it's better to let your guy score 25-30 and you score 10-15, than yeilding 20-25 and scoring 5-10. You have to make team defenses honor you when you are on offense to open things up for the rest of your team.

Bowen blows.

---

So you're happy with Manu and Barry having to guard the league's best swingmen. That's a recipe for fatigue and will hurt their offensive games.

Brown is the future. Bowen is still the present.

If you want someone who will score 10-15 ppg, Eric Williams is not your guy.

He's shooting 21% this year... as a power forward... IN THE EAST.

Frankly, I'd rather have ERob at the swing spot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

Eric Williams wound up on the Nets this past offseason.

I like him better than Bowen.

E-Rob is not an option.

---

Ghost, with all due respect, Eric Williams blows. He can't do anything offensively either.

Would you really rather have Williams starting? He's been awful so far this season, and he doesn't do any one thing really well.

Quote:

---

E-Rob is not an option.

---

Gee, neither is Jack or anyone else you've brought up.

Why don't you post Eric Williams' career numbers vs. Bruce Bowen's?

We're a week into the season.

timvp I know you and wifey are down with Bowen, but he sucks.

And Chump, the front office could've traded over the years or signed an upgrade over Bowen. The retained his services willingly.

I just don't see how he can be justified any longer.

It's a team game. The Spurs' are built on defense. Defense wins championships. Offense doesn't. See Kings, Sacramento.

As for Jack, the Spurs passed on Jack for your boy Barry. So when you feel ready to complain about that, look into a mirror and call yourself an idiot for about an hour.

Quote:

---

It's a team game. The Spurs' are built on defense. Defense wins championships. Offense doesn't. See Kings, Sacramento.

---

Right, defense does win titles -- as long as your offense is good enough at the same time.

Eric Williams' career numbers are not better by a margin that would be comparable to losing Bowen's defense.

Williams is a serviceable roleplayer off the bench.

Given the perimeter talent the Spurs have it is rather difficult to make the case that they don't have enough offense. You need guys who will fill a role and not necessarily put up a lot of points. There are teams in this league that follow a philosophy of filling out their rosters with the best scorers available. They tend not to win championships.

Sooner or later you would think someone who allegedly follows the Spurs would undestand this.

Why would he understand this now.

It worked in 03, but yet he still denounced it.

same bs, same day, same ghostwriter, same arguement.


Bring a new game trick

It worked in 2003, because we had more offensive players then.

Did we win it last year?

No.

I forgot.

With Shaq in the East, the need to have a defensive stopper who doesn't stop and sucks on offense is even less of a priority.

So the Spurs don't have "more offensive players" now?

"Doesn't stop"... Wow.

Quote:

---

And Chump, the front office could've traded over the years or signed an upgrade over Bowen.

---

You mean Artest?

:lmao

Quote:

---

Given the perimeter talent the Spurs have it is rather difficult to make the case that they don't have enough offense. You need guys who will fill a role and not necessarily put up a lot of points. There are teams in this league that follow a philosophy of filling out their rosters with the best scorers available. They tend not to win championships.

Sooner or later you would think someone who allegedly follows the Spurs would undestand this.

---

The whole point is the Spurs need to play better offense than last season if they want to win the title. They were one of the best defensive teams of all time last season in terms of defensive effiency, but were slightly below average on offense. I would be willing to give up a little defense as long as the offense improves.

Players that filled rosters with scorers didn't win cause they didn't have a good enough leader to make up for their potential offensive inconsistencies. Many of those teams like the Mavs of last season brought in Walker and Jamison, but their offense didn't really improve because having too many scorers can sometimes make offenses less efficient cause certain players like Antoine Walker cannot fill a role.

Bowen playing 30mpg can work, as long as he hits his threes and the backcourt picks up the slack in the scoring department, also Brent Barry, Malik Rose, and maybe Devin from time to time need to score.

You don't sacrifice the D for the O.

Would you beleive the defense was actually MUCH better last season in 0304, than in 0203? No because you simply hate Rasho. But fact is the Spurs were better on D last season if you factor the entire season. They were at #3 in the league in 2002-03, and #6 offensively. Sure Drob was out 20 games and Manu had his injuries, but the offense got better at mid-season when Rose (who also started) and Manu became bench demons.

In 0304 they were by FAR #1 on D, and about 16-17 on offense?

Sure you don't sacrafice D, but if the team can improve by a lot offensively, than it might slip up a little bit on the defensive end. Plus the fact they lost a solid defender in Hedo at the 3 spot.

Either way, Spurs have to get better on offense than last season, even if the D stays the same....

Also, the Spurs don't need to sacrifice the D for the O given the perimeter players they have, as well as the progression of Ginobili and Parker.

Stfu Gw.

This year, maybe the Spurs can win despite the fact that Bowen sucks on offense.

Last year, his defense did not justify his lack of offense.

And this year, his defense is deteriorating.

I've been saying for years now that Ghostwriter is probably the worst poster in the forum. I gave you people a pass a couple seasons ago, when he had some comedic value. But now he can barely come up with coherent arguments.

It's getting near impossible to justify him.

Bowen is shooting 46.3% from the floor, 60% from beyond the arc and 83.3% from the line. Your "other boy" Eric Williams is shooting 27% from the floor.

Apologize.

I'm sorry... I did not realize it was April.

Do you think he can keep this up?

Check his 2003 stats and then get back to me.

No one expects him to keep this up.

Half of this productivity is still eons ahead of Eric Williams or any of your other Scrub Alternatives du Joir.

I guarantee that E. Williams finishes this seasonw ith better numbers than Bowen, just like every other season.

And if you watched the games, you'd know that Williams is regarded as a pretty darn good defender, but not quite on Bowen's level.


P.S.

this is like Whitney vs. Parker. You guys fall in love with a Spur until I point out that a NBA scrub is doing basically the same.

Eric Williams shot 38% last season.

Maybe now that you have league pass, you'll see that the grass isn't always greener on the other side.





P.S.

What team is Whitney on?

:smokin

Quote:

---

I guarantee that E. Williams finishes this seasonw ith better numbers than Bowen, just like every other season.

---

Irrelevant. Bowen is here for defense.

Quote:

---

And if you watched the games, you'd know that Williams is regarded as a pretty darn good defender, but not quite on Bowen's level.

---

Did you happen to watch Mavs vs. Nets, where Jerry Stackhouse was hitting just about every shot he took?

Williams isn't an All NBA Defensive 12th Teamer, let alone First.

Um, Bowen's defense has not been up to par, hence this entire thread, simpleton.

Eric Williams was not guarding Jerry Stackhouse the whole game, Spurm.

Bowen's defense HAS been up to par, hense all of the posts in this thread besides yours.

Bowen doesn't guard his man the entire game either, but he's held most accountable when his man goes off.

Your Scrub du Joir got torched.

If offense won titles then the Kings would have a few banners hanging by now.

Stfu Gw.

bruce bowen is critical to the spurs success we need a shut down defensive stud out there on the perimeter.

Position Defense cannot be quantified and last I checked, Eric Williams has never ever been on a team that won their division, finished first in some defensive category, or proven to be a pivotal cog on the way to a title. He also has never been chosen for a 1st, much less 2nd, team ALL-NBA Defensive. While you cite his stats as your reasoning for him being better than Bowen, I'll cite that he is a player who is REGULARLY used as a THROW-IN on trades. That alone de-validates your opinions on just how valuable the guy is.

I think you're just hard up for O. Try Phoenix :)

On a related note, Spurs scoring is up. Spurs D Scoring is also up. Not good. I'm spoiled...I want the best point differential as well.

what is his value after tonight?

Which half?

I'd say he broke even for the night.

his lack of it burried the spurs and they could not get out of the hole

Ray Allen is, like, sort of good and stuff...

The last half was as good as anyone's played him this year. It's not like Bowen can stop the bank shot from three.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

I've been saying for years that Bowen is probably the worst starting small forward in the NBA.

---

I wish we had the worst starting small forward in the NBA instead of what we got now.

5.5 year bump, that has to be some kind of record

Nah, this would be nothing for the Mookie Crew.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ghost Writer

I'd take Eric Williams over Bowen.

---