Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZeusWillJudge
Oh, it was worse than that.
The league had done a bunch of tests in a gym, with cameras set up to check times precisely. They decided that .4 seconds was the minimum amount of time to get off a "normal" shot. They issued guidance that if there was anything less than .4, the shot could only be a tip-in, or the game was automatically over without even a review. The video review system wasn't as polished as it is today, and that was done so that the refs wouldn't have to try and figure out 1/10th of a second differences on the fly. So .4 seconds was the minimum they said that a player could catch, cock, and fire. (Not turn, put the ball on the floor, and fade away.)
Most of you probably don't remember, but when Tim made his amazing shot on the previous play, the final buzzer sounded. The refs reviewed the video, to figure out if they should put time back on the clock. I was watching with friends and said, "Watch this... they're gonna put exactly four tenths back." That was no accident. They put back enough time to allow one last shot. If they had put back .3, that shot would have been disallowed without review.
Well, I agree that the Laker refs were not going to follow the guidance. And I believe that that clock keeper sucks at his job whether or not he was paid off.
However, Fisher did not put the ball on the ground.
If you watch, you'll see that the ball was all the way through at 0.6; so, I'm surprised that the refs didn't add time.
I'll add that Manu was trying not to commit the foul, but he needed to put real pressure and not just half-ass jump.
I'll also say, Fisher did the full fade and follow-through in .4? I think it's been timed and it was really .8 IIRC.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZeusWillJudge
LOL. It was always known that the shot didn't get off within .4 seconds. But it did get off before the buzzer. The NBA had issued guidance to the refs that they were supposed to make calls based on actual time, and that they were the final word and not the buzzer. Pretty much custom made for a situation like that one. They ignored that, and went with the buzzer/light.
That being said, you have to give Fisher credit - it was a bitchin' shot under the ultimate pressure. And it's not that hard to understand that the refs didn't want to step in on a crucial playoff game between the two best teams in the league. I think they should have made the right ruling. If you're going to have instant replay, you should use it and let the chips fall. But I understand why they didn't. That's why they finally started having instant replay decisions made by an offsite official.
Yes Fisher made a great shot. No it didn't happen in .4 seconds. Yes the Lakers won the game. That last one is really the only one that matters. If it had been waved off, and the Spurs had gone on to win the LOB, there would still be some Laker fans talking about the one that got taken away. I guess that's part of the reason professional sports never get boring.
I give Fisher zero credit he was under no pressure to hit that shot since everybody including probably himself felt there was no chance the Lakers could win the game. Plus he's a role player so there's even less pressure when you are a role player versus being a star in a playoff game. If anything that shot saved Fisher's career. Never liked Fisher the player or the person prior to that shot. I always thought he was a smug ass kisser evident by him kissing Shaq ass and getting Nick Van Exel traded. I also felt he was low key a dirty player that pretended to be a good guy. A lot of people at ate that up but I never did. Anyways didn't think he deserved to have that moment but it happened thanks to the league and the shot clock operator.
Duncan's shot would have gone down as the greatest playoff game winner in NBA history had the Fisher shot not counted. Even better than Jordan's shot on Ehlo. It really sucks we got deprived of seeing Tim have that historical moment. It would also had been great to see Shaq having to go to therapy for years to deal with that type of humiliation since he has a fragile ego. I did enjoy Duncan's shot for a brief moment when I saw Malone,Shaq,Kobe,and Payton looking like they were about to cry. They would have been in tears had the league and shot clock operator not saved them. Would have been nice to beat the Lakers 2 years in a row and humble Phil Jackson,Kobe,Shaq. That's something their egos would have had a hard time handling
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
If the Spurs make that same shot, the refs waive it off, PERIOD, especially in LA.
Just look at the Fisher on Barry no-call 4 years later.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UZER
If the Spurs make that same shot, the refs waive it off, PERIOD, especially in LA.
Just look at the Fisher in Barry no call 4 years later.
Pretty much why I don't respect some of the titles those Laker teams won. I felt in '00 and '02 the Lakers win because of the refs. I'll give them credit for '01 but even in the finals they needed the refs to help guard AI. I remember them allowing Tyron Lue to hold AI's hand and arm on every possession after game 1. They would have still won that series in '01 without that dirty tactic but it shows you how much the refs were in their pocket. One thing the Laker title runs during '00s taught me is that not all title runs are to be respected. There are certain teams due to market size and media favor ability that will get special treatment.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
If anything that shot saved Fisher's career. Never liked Fisher the player or the person prior to that shot. I always thought he was a smug ass kisser e
Yea, I do kind of remember him being on thin ice. My initial impression of the guy before the Lakers even rang was that he was a guy who would be selling drugs if he wasn't in the NBA. I stopped feeling that way eventually; but maybe I was right all the same.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
Pretty much why I don't respect some of the titles those Laker teams won. I felt in '00 and '02 the Lakers win because of the refs. I'll give them credit for '01 but even in the finals they needed the refs to help guard AI. I remember them allowing Tyron Lue to hold AI's hand and arm on every possession after game 1. They would have still won that series in '01 without that dirty tactic but it shows you how much the refs were in their pocket. One thing the Laker title runs during '00s taught me is that not all title runs are to be respected. There are certain teams due to market size and media favor ability that will get special treatment.
In the 08 playoffs Game 1, Spurs were up by like 15 or 20 and then the Lakers were just allowed to hit Parker and Manu on drives like they were linebackers. Don't think the Spurs ever complained. And even few or no other Spurs fans here other than me really complained about that long after the fact. But I was watching and was shocked by how blatant it was. Refs learned a valuable blueprint on that. IMO, that's how the Miami Heat were later made.
That game really took the air out of the Spurs balloon. It would have been a totally different series with different officiating. In fact, I think that 08 Lakers team lacked confidence and would have shat the bed against a team with Spurs championship pedigree in Game 2 and it would've all been over.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
Duncan's shot would have gone down as the greatest playoff game winner in NBA history had the Fisher shot not counted.
I went to great lengths to make sure I caught the last five minutes of that game as I was working that day. I caught it in a sports bar, and I was shocked that it went in; totally stunned! Yea, now only Spurs fans would even ever talk about that shot.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spurtacular
In the 08 playoffs Game 1, Spurs were up by like 15 or 20 and then the Lakers were just allowed to hit Parker and Manu on drives like they were linebackers. Don't think the Spurs ever complained. And even few or no other Spurs fans here other than me really complained about that long after the fact. But I was watching and was shocked by how blatant it was. Refs learned a valuable blueprint on that. IMO, that's how the Miami Heat were later made.
That game really took the air out of the Spurs balloon. It would have been a totally different series with different officiating. In fact, I think that 08 Lakers team lacked confidence and would have shat the bed against a team with Spurs championship pedigree in Game 2 and it would've all been over.
Lakers were always allowed to hack and play dirty against the Spurs whenever they were down. Remember in '04 when the Spurs went up 2-0 and suddenly the refs allowed Malone to play Draymond Green like defense once the series went to LA. He was allowed to hold and grab Duncan on every possession along with knocking the shit out of Parker and Ginobilli and not being called for it. I agree with you on the WCF game 1 in '08. If the Lakers lose that game they are buried confidence wise and fall apart. Hell I give the Spurs a 50-50 chance of winning the series if Brent was allowed to shoot those freethrows in game 4.
Anyways I always hated playing the Lakers due to the fact that not only did you have to be good enough to beat them but you also had to be good enough to overcome the refs. It was always like a handicap match.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spurtacular
Yea, I do kind of remember him being on thin ice. My initial impression of the guy before the Lakers even rang was that he was a guy who would be selling drugs if he wasn't in the NBA. I stopped feeling that way eventually; but maybe I was right all the same.
I never liked him from day 1. Whenever he got outplayed I would always see him throw temper tantrums and start throwing cheap shots at whoever was outplaying him. For example I remember a rooke Tony Parker schooling him in game 3 of the Spurs vs lakers in '02. Fisher lost his cool threw a cheap shot at Tony. I think it was either an elbow or he just threw him to the ground. Parker confronts him then Bitch Fox comes to Fisher's aide and both get up in his face. I remember even back in '14 when the Thunder were going to lose game 5 of WCF that he threw a cheap shot at Baynes. I remember Jeff Ayers getting up in Fisher's face and then seeing Fisher nearly in tears and backing away.
Stuff like that always enraged me. It's bitch made to go after guys simply because they are outplaying you.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
I never liked him from day 1. Whenever he got outplayed I would always see him throw temper tantrums and start throwing cheap shots at whoever was outplaying him. For example I remember a rooke Tony Parker schooling him in game 3 of the Spurs vs lakers in '02. Fisher lost his cool threw a cheap shot at Tony. I think it was either an elbow or he just threw him to the ground. Parker confronts him then Bitch Fox comes to Fisher's aide and both get up in his face. I remember even back in '14 when the Thunder were going to lose game 5 of WCF that he threw a cheap shot at Baynes. I remember Jeff Ayers getting up in Fisher's face and then seeing Fisher nearly in tears and backing away.
Stuff like that always enraged me. It's bitch made to go after guys simply because they are outplaying you.
It's just a damn helluva fucking shame that Fisher wasn't on that helicopter.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
Lakers were always allowed to hack and play dirty against the Spurs whenever they were down. Remember in '04 when the Spurs went up 2-0 and suddenly the refs allowed Malone to play Draymond Green like defense once the series went to LA. He was allowed to hold and grab Duncan on every possession along with knocking the shit out of Parker and Ginobilli and not being called for it. I agree with you on the WCF game 1 in '08. If the Lakers lose that game they are buried confidence wise and fall apart. Hell I give the Spurs a 50-50 chance of winning the series if Brent was allowed to shoot those freethrows in game 4.
Anyways I always hated playing the Lakers due to the fact that not only did you have to be good enough to beat them but you also had to be good enough to overcome the refs. It was always like a handicap match.
I don't think Barry should have got FTs in 2008. Let the players play. The Spurs just looked outmatched and fighting for their lives after they choked away Game 1.
I also think that Dogface shouldn't have gotten the FT in 2006 when Manu got 95% ball and 5% hand, in a playoff game 7 that's not a foul, especially if Gay Allen's hack on Manu's wrist at the end of OT in 6 wasn't a foul.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spurtacular
Yea, I do kind of remember him being on thin ice. My initial impression of the guy before the Lakers even rang was that he was a guy who would be selling drugs if he wasn't in the NBA. I stopped feeling that way eventually; but maybe I was right all the same.
He was on real thin ice that season. His numbers were straight up garbage. He was barely averaging 7 points a game on 35 percent shooting overall and only 29 percent shooting from 3. I remember Laker fans wanting him off the team that year because he was just that bad. Crappy defender and crappy shooter that year. Plus he was an FA in the summer of '04. If he doesn't hit that shot no team would have touched him. But because of that shot it extended his career.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UNT Eagles 2016
I don't think Barry should have got FTs in 2008. Let the players play. The Spurs just looked outmatched and fighting for their lives after they choked away Game 1.
I also think that Dogface shouldn't have gotten the FT in 2006 when Manu got 95% ball and 5% hand, in a playoff game 7 that's not a foul, especially if Gay Allen's hack on Manu's wrist at the end of OT in 6 wasn't a foul.
I have played hschool ball and I still play ball on the streets. I can say in both atmospheres that it's an obvious foul what Dfish did to Barry. Dfish jumped and threw his whole entire body into Barry when he was dribbling and about to go up for his shot. If you don't call that foul on the streets guys will start yelling at you and in some cases even fight you.
I didn't like seeing Dirk go to the line but Manu committed an obvious dumb foul. My problem was at the end of that game when Dirk and I think it was Dampier hacked Duncan when he tried to win the game and they didn't give Duncan the foul. That was bs.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spurtacular
Well, I agree that the Laker refs were not going to follow the guidance. And I believe that that clock keeper sucks at his job whether or not he was paid off.
However, Fisher did not put the ball on the ground.
If you watch, you'll see that the ball was all the way through at 0.6; so, I'm surprised that the refs didn't add time.
I'll add that Manu was trying not to commit the foul, but he needed to put real pressure and not just half-ass jump.
I'll also say, Fisher did the full fade and follow-through in .4? I think it's been timed and it was really .8 IIRC.
You're right - Fisher didn't put the ball on the floor. His was just moving away from the basket, so that he had to catch and turn before taking the shot. Still not possible within the NBA's guidance. They got rid of it the next season. I also agree that they could have (and probably should have) put .6 on the clock anyway.
My point was that it was just a piss-poor use of the instant replay, all the way around. If you're going to use it, you should use it right. I think it was the second year for replay, but they still should have done a better job than that.
That was about the same time the NBA had people reviewing referees after games, but several of the people they had looking at film weren't even from a basketball background. That was a dark age for NBA officiating. It's gotten a lot better since then.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZeusWillJudge
You're right - Fisher didn't put the ball on the floor. His was just moving away from the basket, so that he had to catch and turn before taking the shot. Still not possible within the NBA's guidance. They got rid of it the next season. I also agree that they could have (and probably should have) put .6 on the clock anyway.
My point was that it was just a piss-poor use of the instant replay, all the way around. If you're going to use it, you should use it right. I think it was the second year for replay, but they still should have done a better job than that.
That was about the same time the NBA had people reviewing referees after games, but several of the people they had looking at film weren't even from a basketball background. That was a dark age for NBA officiating. It's gotten a lot better since then.
Legit conspiracies aside, the refs hands were tied. They have to go off the replay and the clock as it functioned. Had they taken out a stop watch, sure that might've been something. But it wasn't in the rules. It still isn't.
If it had been 0.6 Manu would have played tougher defense. With 0.4 he understood how tough it was to get off a real shot in that time and he didn't want to bail out Fisher on a foul.
He learned his lesson for later years....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjUgDgcAIXY
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
Lakers were always allowed to hack and play dirty against the Spurs whenever they were down. Remember in '04 when the Spurs went up 2-0 and suddenly the refs allowed Malone to play Draymond Green like defense once the series went to LA. He was allowed to hold and grab Duncan on every possession along with knocking the shit out of Parker and Ginobilli and not being called for it. I agree with you on the WCF game 1 in '08. If the Lakers lose that game they are buried confidence wise and fall apart. Hell I give the Spurs a 50-50 chance of winning the series if Brent was allowed to shoot those freethrows in game 4.
Anyways I always hated playing the Lakers due to the fact that not only did you have to be good enough to beat them but you also had to be good enough to overcome the refs. It was always like a handicap match.
That’s Phil Jackson’s coaching. He knew the bigger market star teams can get away with more especially in 4th quarters. It’s something Steve Kerr has taught his team as well. Look at the Lakers, look at the Bulls, look at the Warriors. That’s why it would always seem like their team’s intensity went up another level, and the Spurs would start struggling. They really started struggling because all of a sudden, their getting pushed, pulled, grabbed, held, and the refs suddenly swallowed the whistle.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
UZER
That’s Phil Jackson’s coaching. He knew the bigger market star teams can get away with more especially in 4th quarters. It’s something Steve Kerr has taught his team as well. Look at the Lakers, look at the Bulls, look at the Warriors. That’s why it would always seem like their team’s intensity went up another level, and the Spurs would start struggling. They really started struggling because all of a sudden, their getting pushed, pulled, grabbed, held, and the refs suddenly swallowed the whistle.
Agreed. A team that has media favorability is always going to be allowed to get away with being physical in the 4th quarter along with getting phantom touch fouls on the offensive end that allows them to get to the line. I look at even OKC with Durant-Westbrook they were allowed to get away with a lot of shit. I'm still amazed at how the Spurs were able to beat them in '14. It took a lot of win game 6 in OKC. I remember Ibaka getting away with goal tending at the end and thinking the Spurs were going to lose. They showed a lot of will power and mental fortitude to stay in that game despite the refs.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Refs refs refs
Yeah maybe the refs helped the Lakers
That, right there, is why I fucking hate Pop sometimes
His « don’t complain to the refs like other teams players do, be classy, we’re better than this gneugneu » mantra brought us jack and shit
When Jackson whined to the refs, with both the Bulls and Lakers, it paid off
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
I remember the rule vividly. With .4 second a player can catch and shoot only. Fisher caught, turned, and shot which was literally against the written NBA rule book. But I blame the shitty ass Spurs personal as much as anything. He started the clock late. Same mother fucker who robbed Duncan of his quadruple double in the NBA finals. I will never forget ABC showing Duncan with 9 blocks after he clearly blocked the ball only for the Spurs recorder to give the block to someone else. Ridiculous. Spurs have the worst home cooking period.
Also pisses me off how scrubs/stars always go off against us and just shit the bed in the Finals. Like y’all should’ve just lost to us like the losers that you are instead of embarrassing yourself like that on the biggest stage. Fisher shot like 17% on 3s in the 04 Finals. Dirk going for 40 and being clutch only for him to shrink like a coward in the finals. Kobe losing by 36 on his own damn home court to close out the series. Harden too scared to shoot the fucking ball after hitting dagger after dagger against us. CP3 losing a 3-1 series. Just too many times where I think man why the fuck did y’all show up against the Spurs if you were gonna be such a pussy later on. Rant over :lol
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
I love how the Spurs dynasty was a roller coaster, with equally memorable ups and downs.
I especially love how every time something tragic happened, the Spurs made up for it the following year.
Tragedy of '04 --> Ring '05
Tragedy of '06 --> Ring '07
Tragedy of '13 --> Ring '14
Doesn't get sweeter than that.
Re: Ludden: .4 shot follows Fisher
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daslicer
I have played hschool ball and I still play ball on the streets. I can say in both atmospheres that it's an obvious foul what Dfish did to Barry. Dfish jumped and threw his whole entire body into Barry when he was dribbling and about to go up for his shot. If you don't call that foul on the streets guys will start yelling at you and in some cases even fight you.
I didn't like seeing Dirk go to the line but Manu committed an obvious dumb foul. My problem was at the end of that game when Dirk and I think it was Dampier hacked Duncan when he tried to win the game and they didn't give Duncan the foul. That was bs.
On the streets there's no free throws though.
