19-0. The (San) Francisco Treat?

The Spurs are 19-0 when Francisco Elson plays at least 22 minutes.




Their average margin of victory is 17.6 points in those games.




They were 6-5 when he was hurt.




So...is he the main, or one of the main reason for those wins...or is he getting those minutes because the Spurs are blowing teams out?

I'd say he's better in the middle than Oberto against most teams, and would say the Spurs look like a lot better team when he's playing well and getting extra minutes.

I find it interesting that he's playing his best ball of the year when the Spurs are finding their inner SPAM.

He's not THE reason for the team's resurgence, but I think his presence is being felt. Hopefully he'll keep it up.

interesting......

but I thought he was a stiff.........

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Originally Posted by EHJ

So...is he the main, or one of the main reason for those wins...or is he getting those minutes because the Spurs are blowing teams out?

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In the beginning of the season, he was getting a lot of garbage time and overall he was an awful player. Only lately has he actually been a defensive contributor and yes, I think that's part of the Spurs recent success. He's still very inconsistent offensively and on the glass, but his defensive is much improved (though still not great).

I bet they have a pretty good record when Beno plays over 20 mins too.

yeah they were clicking with elson untill her got hurt...then they started clicking until bonner got hurt...and put together a crazy string of blowouts...

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I bet they have a pretty good record when Beno plays over 20 mins too.

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:lol

His defense has been much better as of late. Since the Rodeo Road Trip started, he has rotated better and played tougher down low.

I think that 19-0 stat has more to do with the fact that the Spurs are better when Pop doesn't go small. If the Spurs stay big (which gives Elson more time, obviously), the Spurs are tough to beat. Small ball is what has killed the Spurs over the last year.

If Elson could get more consistent, he'd really start to be something. After getting 18 rebounds against Detroit, he had 19 rebounds in the next five games. If he can rebound consistently and up his blocks a little bit, the Spurs should be good enough in the middle.

11-0 when Beno plays 18+ mins

:lmao

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Originally Posted by aaronstampler

11-0 when Beno plays 18+ mins

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8-0 when he plays 22 or more minutes.





Now look at games Beno's played well:





There's Houston..........








Now look at games where Beno's actually been a factor in those games:





There's _______________ and there's ______________.

Very interesting stat. Thanks for posting that Ed!

Please God don't let Pop go small in the playoffs this year...

I still say he'll be an interesting "wild-card" versus the Mavs in the playoffs.

Elson is a much better bet against Dirk than Nazr and Rasho were, that's for damn sure.

It's tough being a role player on a great team because what you need from peripheral players changes from game to game. Against Detroit, a halfcourt team with good bigs, Elson is valuable. Against Phoenix, who will go small, run up and down, and shoot a bunch of jumpers, did Elson really play badly if he plays 10 minutes and grabs three rebounds? Suppose during his 10 minutes he kept his man off the glass and Timmy grabbed five boards? Did Elson really fail to contribute, or was it something we just couldn't see?

Although +/- can be misleading, I'd like to see what Elson's is. To me, he's been an effective player for us.

Pop stayed Big tonight. Elson v. Battier is a little easier than Elson v. Dirk, however.

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Originally Posted by Solid D

Pop stayed Big tonight. Elson v. Battier is a little easier than Elson v. Dirk, however.

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Don't matter. He's got more than enough quickness and foot speed that he can stay in front of Dirk. His length and athleticism should also come in handy.

No one is going to shut down Dirk, but if he can make him work for his points and frustrate him into taking bad shots - he's done his job.

I liked what Elson was able to do against him in the season opener.

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

Don't matter. He's got more than enough quickness and foot speed that he can stay in front of Dirk. His length and athleticism should also come in handy.

No one is going to shut down Dirk, but if he can make him work for his points and frustrate him into taking bad shots - he's done his job.

I liked what Elson was able to do against him in the season opener.

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I like having Elson on the floor against Dirk even if it's only because then Bowen won't have to switch off between Dirk and Howard. Josh Howard is very, very good and Bowen is going to keep his full concentration on preparing for and playing against Howard. Last season, they kept switching Bowen off onto Dirk/Howard and then the other one would get hot. Elson gives them an option by at least being able to be tall with Dirk :lol

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

I like having Elson on the floor against Dirk even if it's only because then Bowen won't have to switch off between Dirk and Howard. Josh Howard is very, very good and Bowen is going to keep his full concentration on preparing for and playing against Howard. Last season, they kept switching Bowen off onto Dirk/Howard and then the other one would get hot. Elson gives them an option by at least being able to be tall with Dirk :lol

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Good point. In fact, it was rather comical to me that Pop kept switching Bowen around that way. I remember thinking to myself, 'there's simply NOT enough of Bowen's defensive wizardry to go around'. At times he had to guard his man and help out on others.

All the more reason the FO shouldn't have waited yet another year to address the backup SF position.

After watching the WCSF series, I was more convinced than ever they would address the diminished perimieter defense this past summer. What was I thinking? :)

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Originally Posted by SRJ

Although +/- can be misleading, I'd like to see what Elson's is. To me, he's been an effective player for us.

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His +/- numbers aren't anything to write home about. He has the 8th best +/- total and the 7th best +/- per minute.

Where you can see improvement in his numbers is defensively. Over the last ten games, he's starting to become a pretty good defensive player.

Points Against Per 48 Minutes Over The Last Ten Games
Horry - 76.9
Elson - 82.1
Oberto - 93.1

While he's not quite at a Robert Horry level, he has started to separate himself from Oberto on that end of the court.

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Over the last ten games, he's starting to become a pretty good defensive player.

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shit, the apocolypse had to come before the playoffs.

Bastards.

It should also be noted that Elson will provide not only some much needed support against Dallas, but Phoenix as well.

I like the idea of
Parker - Nash
Barry/Finley/Gino - Bell
Bowen - Marion
Duncan - Thomas
Elson - Amare

No, Elson won't shut down Amare, but he very well might limit him, same as Dirk.

Really, aside from Nash, we match up very very well against the Suns, even better than previous squads. And Parker will always torch the Canadian anyway. :lol

Elson disrupts everything for the other team offensively when he's on the floor...and he did a great job when he was matched up on McGrady tonight...pretty sure TMac came away scoreless everytime he was matched up on Elson.

I personally am thrilled with him...he does a little of everything that the Spurs want...he's probably not as good at anyone thing as Rasho and Nazr were at their specialities...but his all around game is better than theirs.

I think some people *ahem* are getting a little to worried about individual performance and need to take a look at how the team is performing of late...we're blowing teams out by 20 ppg, D is there, shooting is there, passing is there...exactly how many points is career 10ppg scorer Barry supposed to be scoring? Ditto Elson's rebounding.

Team is playing well and that trumps any individual stat lines.

Barry makes our offense better because he stretches the D of the opposing team...he has done this since the day he stepped on the court for the Spurs.

Elson does stuff just by being 7 feet tall, fast and athletic...he erases a lot of mistakes and breakdowns just by moving.

I still don't think Elson is going to be the answer against a bruiser like Shaq or the physical frontline of the Jazz...

But he can definitely steal some minutes on SF's playing at the PF slot in small ball lineups...he proved that to me tonight. If he can hang with TMac better than anyone on our team outside of Bowen he can definitely grab some minutes on Amare, Marion and Kirilenko types...

Uh, he switched off onto TMac twice, maybe thrice. And the first time, Elson committed the cardinal sin of Spurs defense -- let McGrady go middle.

About 5 times, with TMac driving just about every time from the perimeter and either being forced to pass, or blowing point blank layups...and he bothered TMac when he was on him.

Say what you want but you evidentally haven't watched what TMac does to everyone else on the Spurs that guards him...cept for maybe Manu, on occasion.

It's usually a no contest...hell it's a no contest with Bowen on him.

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Originally Posted by whottt

About 5 times...and he bothered TMac when he was on him.

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Granted, he stayed with him better than Rasho or Nazr could ever dream to, but that's about it. McGrady toyed with him on the perimeter.

:lol
TIMVP just cant bring himself to come over to the darkside.

Compared to who? Finley? Barry? Anyone else we have tried to guard him with the last 3 years?

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Originally Posted by T Park

:lol
TIMVP just cant bring himself to come over to the darkside.

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I've given him props in this thread. I'm not going to name him a McGrady stopper, however.

I'm not saying he's a McGrady stopper either, nor am I saying we should put Elson out there and lock him on TMac...but it's relative to what anyone else does on him. If have to pick I saw enough tonight to want Elson on him in a pinch over anyone else outside of Bowen or perhaps Manu.

The one thing I have been consistenlty impressed with about Elson is how fast he is...even when he gets beat on the perimter he still closes to the basket almost instantly and makes the shot an uncomfortable one...Elson is definitely the X factor on this years team.

7 feet extemely fast athletic and coordinated...Elson was a steal.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Compared to who? Finley? Barry? Anyone else we have tried to guard him with the last 3 years?

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Put a gun to my head, I'd guard McGrady with the players in this order:

Bowen
.
.
.
.
.
.
Ginobili
Finley
Vaughn
Elson
Parker
Horry
Bonner
Oberto
Duncan
Butler
Beno
Coach Bud
The Coyote
Barry

:hat

Nahh...I'd take ol' 2! over Beno. :lol

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Originally Posted by whottt

The one thing I have been consistenlty impressed with about Elson is how fast he is

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Agreed. That's the one thing we knew he could bring to the table. As of late, he's done a better job of making his speed more useful to the team.

I want him to show up more than once every other week, though. Between this game and the Detroit game, he hadn't done much of anything. He shows flashes of potential, but he's far from a savior at this point. I'm still not convinced that when the chips are down, Pop trusts Elson more than he trusts small ball.

:blah at the coyote better defender than barry..

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Originally Posted by timvp

I'm still not convinced that when the chips are down, Pop trusts Elson more than he trusts small ball.

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And that's what is scary.

Say no to small ball.

Elson has also picked up a ton of fouls early. He's very prone to get into early foul trouble which fucks up his playing stats. Too be fair - I'm not sure any other Spur has gotten the shaft as much as Elson from the in the 1st quarter. He's gotten in foul trouble with some HORRIBLE calls.

For the month of February, Elson averaged five points and four rebounds if you take out his Detroit explosion. Just about any human on earth who is seven-feet tall would put up comparable numbers next to the other four starters the Spurs have.

I don't think it's asking too much for more consistent play out of Elson ... especially considering that he's a McGrady stopping steal.

:smokin

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Originally Posted by timvp

For the month of February, Elson averaged five points and four rebounds if you take out his Detroit explosion. Just about any human on earth who is seven-feet tall would put up comparable numbers next to the other four starters the Spurs have.

I don't think it's asking too much for more consistent play out of Elson ... especially considering that he's a McGrady stopping steal.

:smokin

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5 and 4? That's damn near Mohammovich-esque. :clap for Elson :lmao

Mohammovich. :lmao

13 and 8.

Respect :smokin

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Originally Posted by timvp

For the month of February, Elson averaged five points and four rebounds if you take out his Detroit explosion.

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True enough, but how many numbers are available with Tim working the boards and the Big Three handling the scoring? If there are twelve rebounds available when Tim and Elson are playing together, who is supposed to grab them? Should they each have six during that time? Is Elson not performing well if Tim happens to grab them, or is Elson boxing out well?

I'm not saying I know the answers to these questions, but I don't think it's fair to use the usual numbers when evaluating role players. Their minutes fluctuate and their role changes from game to game.

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Originally Posted by SRJ

True enough, but how many numbers are available with Tim working the boards and the Big Three handling the scoring? If there are twelve rebounds available when Tim and Elson are playing together, who is supposed to grab them? Should they each have six during that time? Is Elson not performing well if Tim happens to grab them, or is Elson boxing out well?

I'm not saying I know the answers to these questions, but I don't think it's fair to use the usual numbers when evaluating role players. Their minutes fluctuate and their role changes from game to game.

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Elson usually loses his rebounds to his opponents, not Tim. He's so thin that pretty much anyone boxes him out.

By the way, his 5/4 February was an improvement from a 3/4 January. :(

Post All-Star break, he's averaging slightly more minutes than before, but his FG% is down 9% and his rebounding is down from 5.2 boards to 3.8.

That all being said, he is rotating better.

defense first, rebounding second.

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Originally Posted by T Park

defense first, rebounding second.

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He should be able to rotate and to grab more than 3.8 rebounds per game.

It's good to see TimVP doesn't let winning interfere with his nice relaxing glass of haterade.

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Originally Posted by whottt

It's good to see TimVP doesn't let winning interfere with his nice relaxing glass of haterade.

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So you are excited about Elson's FG% dropping off by 9% and his rebounding being under 4 since the All-Star break (despite his minutes being up)?

Both timvp and I said that his defense is getting better but it doesn't mean that he's awesome. He's still pretty mediocre.

Mediocre compared to who? Drob?


He doesn't bobble passes, he goes up for dunks, no stupid pump fakes, he alters shots, occasionally he has nice rebounding or game where he gets a lot of dunks, he finishes the break, tonight he got to the ft line...his j is just good enough to where you have to respect it, he's got just enough of a post game to be a threat there...

Honestly the Spurs don't ask for much from the C, and Elson gives them what they ask better than anyone since Drob, and he throws in a few extras.

Rasho had the talent to be the best...but he just floated too much. Elson seems to show up for the big games and coast during the meaningless ones...

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Originally Posted by whottt

Mediocre compared to who? Drob?

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He's about the same thing as Nazr and Rasho - a 5/5 player. Everyone thought they sucked, so what's different about Elson?

I'll give it to him that he's fast. And that he's tall.

But he's a mediocre player at this point.

He dunks more than Rasho, get to the FT line more than Rasho, hits FT better too, pumpfakes less than Nazr, got a better j than Nazr. and he's got better hands than Nazr. He runs the floor better than either of them...


Keep in mind...it's tough to get Wilt Chamberlain for 2 mil per year.

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Originally Posted by whottt

He dunks more than Rasho, get to the FT line more than Rasho, hits FT better too, pumpfakes less than Nazr, got a better j than Nazr. and he's got better hands than Nazr. He runs the floor better than either of them...

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And with all that, he's averaging 3.8 rebounds since the AllStar break :tu

:)

At some point, I'd like to see actual numbers result from how much "better" he is than Rasho/Nazr.

I want him to average 8/7 in 20-25 mpg, while playing "decent" defense.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

He's about the same thing as Nazr and Rasho - a 5/5 player. Everyone thought they sucked, so what's different about Elson?

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Nazr had the worst hands in the world and, basketball-wise, was dumber than a bag of hammers. Rasho was morally opposed to dunking and was an atrocious free throw shooter.

Elson is as statistically productive as those two, but he seems to be better in a few small but meaningful ways. Now, to be fair to Rasho, he was great in the realm of team defense. Elson seems to be improving in that area.

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Originally Posted by SRJ

Elson is as statistically productive as those two

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Nazr averaged 7.1 points and 6.7 rebounds in 23 minutes per game during the 2005 playoffs. I'll be happy if Elson can average 6.5 and 6.

Is that too much to ask?

If Elson alters 6 shots a game while discouraging the opponent to drive to the rack repeatedly (unlike Small Balls), the "alter" will not show up in the stats.
I think it's wrong to judge 100% on boards.

congrats...19-0 when elson plays in a great accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

If Elson alters 6 shots a game while discouraging the opponent to drive to the rack repeatedly (unlike Small Balls), the "alter" will not show up in the stats.
I think it's wrong to judge 100% on boards.

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Exactly. I want a stat called, "MtOTTAi" or "Made the Opponent Think Twice About it."

That's all that Elson really needs to do. If he doesn't get 4 blocks and 8 boards per, so what if our defense is solid? Lately it's been reminding me a lot of Spurs teams of the past...

To put up a like analogy, Tony Parker rarely dishes out 8+ assists per game. Are we ready to start calling him out for not contributing enough to the passing game? Does it mean when he passes to Bowen who passes to Finley who passes to Duncan for an easy layup that Parker isn't doing his job to get assists and help the offense?

From what I've seen, Elson is a hard worker.

That's something Nazr was, but he didn't have a head for the game and couldn't catch a pass.

That's something Rasho didn't project, I never felt like his heart was really in the game.

Elson brings emotion and heart. You can see this guy wants it.

And that's enough for me at this point, stats be damned.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Exactly. I want a stat called, "MtOTTAi" or "Made the Opponent Think Twice About it."

That's all that Elson really needs to do. If he doesn't get 4 blocks and 8 boards per, so what if our defense is solid?

To put up a like analogy, Tony Parker rarely dishes out 8+ assists per game. Are we ready to start calling him out for not contributing enough to the passing game? Does it mean when he passes to Bowen who passes to Finley who passes to Duncan for an easy layup that Parker isn't doing his job to get assists and help the offense?

From what I've seen, Elson is a hard worker.

That's something Nazr was, but he didn't have a head for the game and couldn't catch a pass.

That's something Rasho didn't project, I never felt like his heart was really in the game.

Elson brings emotion and heart. You can see this guy wants it.

And that's enough for me at this point, stats be damned.

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If he actually plays defense, I'd agree with all that.

So far this year, he hasn't. Only very recently has he started to catch on and actually do the basics like rotate and contest shots. The rest of the season, he sucked defensively and was constantly getting yelled at/pulled aside, etc by his teammates and coaches.

Hopefully his defensive progress continues and improves.

And he still has to try to box out and rebound, the Spurs lose when they get killed on the glass.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Nazr averaged 7.1 points and 6.7 rebounds in 23 minutes per game during the 2005 playoffs. I'll be happy if Elson can average 6.5 and 6.

Is that too much to ask?

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No it's not - but if I told you I was from the future and Elson was going to average 6.5 points and 6 rebounds per game during the Spurs' 2007 playoff run, would that tell you with any reliability whether the Spurs won the championship, lost in the first round, or any result in between?

Of course not, because what Elson produces statistically doesn't matter very much. Rotations shorten during the playoffs and matchups dictate minutes (and in turn, stats) more than anything else.

Jaren Jackson was the ultimate example of this. Do you think, back in 1999, someone out there said, "We need Jaren Jackson to raise his game if we're going to win a championship?" I doubt it. We couldn't have swept the Lakers without him going nuts from three, but that's entirely different from saying we needed more from Jaren Jackson. If the gameplan against a given opponent relies on a role player elevating his play to an unrealistic degree, that's a flimsy gameplan. It's about as realistic as saying "We need to stop Kobe to beat the Lakers"; well, if that's the plan, good luck.

Back to your 6.5/6 scenario - if I told you Tim Duncan was going to average 14 points and 8.5 rebounds during the 2007 playoffs, that's probably a little more revealing than Elson's hypothetical 6.5/6, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by SRJ

If the gameplan against a given opponent relies on a role player elevating his play to an unrealistic degree, that's a flimsy gameplan.

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Not part of the plan, but I think that's what it's gonna take to beat Dallas and maybe even the Suns this year. One or more of our role players is gonna have to go absolutely nuts. A miracle, in other words.

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

Not part of the plan, but I think that's what it's gonna take to beat Dallas and maybe even the Suns this year. One or more of our role players is gonna have to go absolutely nuts. A miracle, in other words.

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I'm not as pessimistic, but you may be right. Phoenix on the other hand is a paper tiger. We have nothing to fear from the likes of them. They've been worse against top teams than we've been.

I think it's time for y'all to finaly recognize Elson by calling him the official "X-man" of the silver and black.

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Originally Posted by alamo50

I think it's time for y'all to finaly recognize Elson by calling him the official "X-man" of the silver and black.

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When he plays defense and averages six rebounds, I will :lol

He's learning each and every single day.
Remember he came from Denver.

;)

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Originally Posted by alamo50

He's learning each and every single day.
Remember he came from Denver.

;)

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His rebounding has regressed since the All-Star break. So he needs to get more out of his education. :)

I know people will say that I'm a Oberto hater but we started playing better when Oberto went to the bench. Oberto terrible defense was killing us.

Like a lot of people said, I'm OK with Elson. He give us the same Rasho/Nazr stats

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

I like having Elson on the floor against Dirk

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I like the revenge factor. The Dutch have been waiting 60 years to pay back the Germans. :clap

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Originally Posted by timvp

For the month of February, Elson averaged five points and four rebounds if you take out his Detroit explosion.

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If you look at Spurs since Duncan arrived, the center's stats are almost irrelevant to team success. Even Robinson's stats weren't that great when the team became a champ.

How effective the big man next to Duncan plays show itself only in Ws and titles, not stats. The "glue" that is provided doesn't show in the box score. I bet the stats for Rasho, Nazr and Horry -- taken alone -- would deceive one as to who was effective in the center role and who wasn't.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

In the beginning of the season, he was getting a lot of garbage time and overall he was an awful player. Only lately has he actually been a defensive contributor and yes, I think that's part of the Spurs recent success. He's still very inconsistent offensively and on the glass, but his defensive is much improved (though still not great).

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c'mon kori, give him some love!!! you've only given him "backhanded compliments". when he plays good, they play good. (btw, just poking at ya!) are you convinced that he's the better player to start than Oberto? i would still take elson over oberto & rasho any day.

I think FO is getting more confident, more sure of his role, more convinced that his contributions really can and do make difference, taking real responsibility for the outcome of the game. He seems to be less bemused and befuddled, as if what is happening around him now isn't as random as it was in November, that he can actually cause stuff to happen, rather than have random stuff happen to and around him. :lol

The defensive schemes and offensive schemes are some of the toughest in the league.

I don't know why its so horrible thats it taken him a while to get the schemes.

Elson's defense has been a nice surprise lately...I've been impressed. He's nothing special but he's obviously doing something right.

If you double Elson's minutes he's pulling down 10 boards in @36 minutes per game, compare that to Duncan's rebounding numbers.

It's his minutes that need to go up.

Plus...Duncan is a rebound vacume. Not many get past him. Just about every bigman that has played next to him has had their rebound total go down, including David Robinson.

Elson's probably not as good of a rebounder as Nazr, that was what Nazr did best...but he's got better hands and offense, he's faster, and he doesn't pick up as many stupid fouls.

And it's not like Nazr had the D mastered either.

I don't know if it's fair to consider Elson a C in the traditional sense...it's like every team in the NBA but the Spurs has a 6'8-6'9 guy that just on the team for his athleticism, that just goes out there and does athletic stuff like rebound and get dunks, having a big game every once in a while....that's what Elson is for the Spurs...he's just bigger than most of them. He's not really a C.

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

I still say he'll be an interesting "wild-card" versus the Mavs in the playoffs.

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I so do want to see Elson on Dirk!

playing with elson is better than playing small ball. and that's the only thing that matters.
someone staple that to popovich's forehead.