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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
Whether Elson is a legit starter or a solid backup-caliber player is irrelevant. The important thing is that he performs his role. That role is to be a fairly productive role-player type of center who is quick and agile enough to play against Dirk and the Mavs.
Again, a few years ago against the Lakers, we just needed a shooter. He could have been an utterly mediocre player as a whole. It wouldn't have mattered, just so long as he hit some open shots. It was the absence of a role player that cost us that series, just as it was the absence of any kind of center capable of running with the Mavs that cost us the series last year.
We don't need Elson to be any better at blocking shots or rebounding the basketball than Rasho or Nazzi were. We just need him to do those things and be agile enough that Pop doesn't feel the need to bench him against Dallas as he did both of our centers last year.
By the way, I brought up the Spurs losing to the Lakers a few years ago because of the absence of a pure shooting role player... shortly thereafter, the exact same thing happened to the US Olympic team. They had plenty of scorers, but nobody adept at camping outside and hitting open shots.
Role players are very important... especially against a great team. You have to be firing on all cylinders to beat a team like Dallas. You don't notice role players when they're there, but when they're missing, it's pretty damned obvious.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by mabber
So, will Elson be guarding Amare if they play each other in the 2nd round (which is probably going to happen)?
I'd say probably so, because he has the athleticism and speed to keep up with Amare on pick-n-rolls and in transition. He will have trouble in the post though, as Amare probably has 20-30 pounds of pure muscle on Elson.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by mabber
So, will Elson be guarding Amare if they play each other in the 2nd round (which is probably going to happen)?
He will no doubt see some time against Amare, but unlike Dallas, the Suns don't usually use a center... Stoudemire starts at center if I'm not mistaken.
The Spurs usually play Duncan on Amare. Timmy has to play him loosely so as not to get into foul trouble, which is why Stoudemire always seems to go off on the Spurs. But playing small ball some against Phoenix doesn't hurt us as much as it does against Dallas.
The problem against the Mavs last year was that they did have two 7-footers on the floor, and we were unable to match that. Our other big guys (other than Duncan) were way to slow to guard Dirk, and we didn't want Duncan on him because it would likely get him into foul trouble.
Because they had two big men and we didn't, they often beat us to death in the paint. We shouldn't run into that same problem with Dallas this year (because Elson can match up with Dirk), and it never was a huge problem with Phoenix, because they play small all the time and aren't likely to dominate the paint against us.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
I think one of the Spurs' strengths is the versatility of their front line. Elson is long, quick, and athletic. Horry is rangy and a shot-blocker. Oberto is smart and has size. Bonner is rangy, scrappy, and a decent rebounder. Ely has size and low-post ability. And Duncan....well he's all of the above, but he needs no expounding.
There are six frontline players with different strengths that can match up against different teams.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by PHAT TONY
I think one of the Spurs' strengths is the versatility of their front line. Elson is long, quick, and athletic. Horry is rangy and a shot-blocker. Oberto is smart and has size. Bonner is rangy, scrappy, and a decent rebounder. Ely has size and low-post ability. And Duncan....well he's all of the above, but he needs no expounding.
There are six frontline players with different strengths that can match up against different teams.
PHAT TONY, thank you for bringing up Bonner. If he can get some minutes and get sharp, he could play a part against Dirk in a Dallas-SA series.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
It was clearly the intent of the front office to have quicker big men for this season. Whether it is Elson, or Fabri, or Horry, or Bonner, Dirk is going to go off and get his.
Just anything that lets us shift Bowen over to Howard is a plus. He's had mixed results there in the past, but I think over the course of a 7 game series, Howard would hate having Bruce on him for the majority of the game.
Dirk was unstoppable last year, but if the Spurs could have just kept a few of the other Mavs in check (Howard, Harris, Stack), San Antonio would have won that thing in 5.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
He will no doubt see some time against Amare, but unlike Dallas, the Suns don't usually use a center... Stoudemire starts at center if I'm not mistaken.
The Spurs usually play Duncan on Amare. Timmy has to play him loosely so as not to get into foul trouble, which is why Stoudemire always seems to go off on the Spurs. But playing small ball some against Phoenix doesn't hurt us as much as it does against Dallas.
The problem against the Mavs last year was that they did have two 7-footers on the floor, and we were unable to match that. Our other big guys (other than Duncan) were way to slow to guard Dirk, and we didn't want Duncan on him because it would likely get him into foul trouble.
Because they had two big men and we didn't, they often beat us to death in the paint. We shouldn't run into that same problem with Dallas this year (because Elson can match up with Dirk), and it never was a huge problem with Phoenix, because they play small all the time and aren't likely to dominate the paint against us.
i think they have been starting KT at center lately, but i'm not 100% sure there. Diaw has been coming off the bench.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by leemajors
i think they have been starting KT at center lately, but i'm not 100% sure there. Diaw has been coming off the bench.
Yeah, Thomas has been starting at center but was wondering if Elson would be guarding Amare since you don't want Duncan guarding him and getting in foul trouble.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by ggoose25
i still dont understand why pop spends so much time trying to tweak his lineup for matchup purposes. the years we won the championships were through the spurs exerting their style of play on the opponents, not through worrying about adapting to every single player the opposing coach puts out on the floor.
last year pop killed me with his small ball bullshit against dallas. I think he gave up on Nazr way too quickly, and I have a feeling he is going to do the same with elson in a dallas/phoenix series. i swear, if pop sends out a lineup of parker, ginobili, finley, horry, and tim against dallas I'm going to smash my tv into bolivian.
small ball may win games in the regular season but it has yet to prove it wins championships.
Amen....
I thought Elson was a great find at first but this guy has the basketball IQ of a vegetable. If you could put Oberto's brain in Elson's body you'd have something really special. As it is, if Elson can bring us what we expected of Nazr against the Mav's, that could be the difference. We got away from using our bigs and switched to small ball crap last year that didn't work. I hope Pop doesn't have a short memory, we need another big body so the perimeter defenders can funnel everyone the the inside. But on the insdie we need two capable defenders. Elson is showing signs he could be that guy. But we really need him to be that guy against the Mavs. Having speed to chase Dirk arouand doesn't hurt either.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by mabber
Yeah, Thomas has been starting at center but was wondering if Elson would be guarding Amare since you don't want Duncan guarding him and getting in foul trouble.
Yes, whenever the Suns have 2 big men on the floor... it's a safe bet that Elson or someone else, not named Tim Duncan, will be guarding Amare. Ya don't want Timmy in foul trouble.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
Yes, whenever the Suns have 2 big men on the floor... it's a safe bet that Elson or someone else, not named Tim Duncan, will be guarding Amare. Ya don't want Timmy in foul trouble.
Amare is just a tough matchup for most teams. The Mavs don't have anyone that can guard him. Diop will give it a go but I don't think he's quick enough. I'm sure most teams (in the playoffs) will double Amare and make him a passer as he's not that good at passing as yet.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
Yes, whenever the Suns have 2 big men on the floor... it's a safe bet that Elson or someone else, not named Tim Duncan, will be guarding Amare. Ya don't want Timmy in foul trouble.
Timmy is a first team all defense player every fucking year. The whole idea that he can't defend Amare or Dirk because he'll get in foul trouble is retarded, and it's a big contributing factor in the fact that the Spurs aren't defending a title this year. He's got enough experience not to foul. Unless they put FIBA referees in the playoffs, he's not going to be fouling out of games.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Timmy is a first team all defense player every fucking year. The whole idea that he can't defend Amare or Dirk because he'll get in foul trouble is retarded, and it's a big contributing factor in the fact that the Spurs aren't defending a title this year. He's got enough experience not to foul. Unless they put FIBA referees in the playoffs, he's not going to be fouling out of games.
He doesn't have to foul out in order for it to affect the game. If Duncan gets a quick foul, he'll be less aggressive on future posessions because he knows what gets him taken out of a game.
Tim is smart, but he's not immune to fouling. He's agressive shot-blocker and rebounder...this often leads to fouls. Watch the games and you'll see that Duncan very often does not defend the best perimeter player.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
I agree that Elson's ability to at least be assigned to guard Dirk for good stretches is important to keep us "big" on defense. But more importantly (I think) is we can use Bowen more on JHo. Dirk had great numbers in that series last year. But TD had better numbers. I think the key was JHo was too big for his defenders (Barry, Fin, Manu). Bowen can slow him down enough. Dirk will have Dirk numbers this year again if we meet again in the playoffs. Whether it's on Elson or Bowen, he'll get his usual numbers, there is no stopping him really, but if we're lucky, he has low FG % shooting nights every now and then. But I think Bowen can really get Howard zero'd in on and slow him down on offense (if he can keep him off the boards). Being able to use Bowen on Howard and Stack might be the real key, and that is only possible if someone else can take Dirk more often.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
Elson will go medieval on those bitches!
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
Agreed. Robert Horry even hinted that it was a mistake to do that. He said something to this effect (and I'm paraphrasing)...
"We went small and we got beat. It was like Miami looked at us and decided not to do the same thing. They stayed big and won."
Search Intensifies for Missing Spurs Coach
San Antonio (AP) MAY 27, 2007- -Authorities today intensified their efforts as the investigation into the disappearance of San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich extended into its sixth day.
Popovich was reported missing a few hours after the Spurs dropped Game One of the National Basketball Association's Western Conference Finals to the Dallas Mavericks, 102-93. Spurs players dismissed speculation that Popovich's disappearance had anything to do with unhappiness over the "Small Ball" style of play the Spurs employed in Game One.
"Nah, there's nothing to that", Spurs forward Robert Horry said, "it's as big a mystery to us as to anybody". When asked about rumors that he and center Francisco Elson were seen carrying a writhing laundry bag to a garage freezer at 666 SW Street in Alamo Heights the morning after Game One, Horry stated it was a "venison delivery".
Remarkably, in his absence the Spurs have managed to reel off back-to-back-to-back wins, 91-84 in Dallas and then again 87-72 and 90-79 in San Antonio to take a commanding 3 games to 1 lead in the series. This despite a change in philosophy which has limited Game One centers Michael Finley and Brent Barry to diminished but more effective roles in the backcourt, and more extended playing time for Horry, Elson, Matt Bonner, and Fabricio Oberto, none of whom played more than 2 minutes in Game One. But most surprising has been the contribution of little-used Melvin Ely, who has averaged 8 points per game in the three wins and presented unexpected matchup problems for the Mavericks front court.
Spurs superstars Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili, who have turned in typically dominant performances, remained upbeat about Popovich's status.
"Pop, you know, sometimes he likes to do unexpected things to shake us up", Duncan said. "I'm sure this is just another one of his little tricks."
"Yu know, Pop I steel heer heem yelling at me, even zo hee ees not heer", Parker said. "Zo I reely can't tell ze differance."
"¡Puta bola pequeña!", Ginobili stated emphatically, which was translated by Barry as "I hope Pop is well and comes back soon".
Meanwhile, Mavericks' owner Mark Cuban and coach Avery Johnson announced they were increasing their reward offer to $10 million for information leading to the return of Popovich to his rightful position as Spurs head coach.
SAPD officer Zarko Stomp said he was confident that a break in the case will be coming soon. "I wouldn't be surpised to see him thaw-I mean-turn up safe sound sometime after the next win, er, week.", Stomp said.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
Search Intensifies for Missing Spurs Coach
San Antonio (AP) MAY 27, 2007- -Authorities today intensified their efforts as the investigation into the disappearance of San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich extended into its sixth day.
Popovich was reported missing a few hours after the Spurs dropped Game One of the National Basketball Association's Western Conference Finals to the Dallas Mavericks, 102-93. Spurs players dismissed speculation that Popovich's disappearance had anything to do with unhappiness over the "Small Ball" style of play the Spurs employed in Game One.
"Nah, there's nothing to that", Spurs forward Robert Horry said, "it's as big a mystery to us as to anybody". When asked about rumors that he and center Francisco Elson were seen carrying a writhing laundry bag to a garage freezer at 666 SW Street in Alamo Heights the morning after Game One, Horry stated it was a "venison delivery".
Remarkably, in his absence the Spurs have managed to reel off back-to-back-to-back wins, 91-84 in Dallas and then again 87-72 and 90-79 in San Antonio to take a commanding 3 games to 1 lead in the series. This despite a change in philosophy which has limited Game One centers Michael Finley and Brent Barry to diminished but more effective roles in the backcourt, and more extended playing time for Horry, Elson, Matt Bonner, and Fabricio Oberto, none of whom played more than 2 minutes in Game One. But most surprising has been the contribution of little-used Melvin Ely, who has averaged 8 points per game in the three wins and presented unexpected matchup problems for the Mavericks front court.
Spurs superstars Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobili, who have turned in typically dominant performances, remained upbeat about Popovich's status.
"Pop, you know, sometimes he likes to do unexpected things to shake us up", Duncan said. "I'm sure this is just another one of his little tricks."
"Yu know, Pop I steel heer heem yelling at me, even zo hee ees not heer", Parker said. "Zo I reely can't tell ze differance."
"¡Puta bola pequeña!", Ginobili stated emphatically, which was translated by Barry as "I hope Pop is well and comes back soon".
Meanwhile, Mavericks' owner Mark Cuban and coach Avery Johnson announced they were increasing their reward offer to $10 million for information leading to the return of Popovich to his rightful position as Spurs head coach.
SAPD officer Zarko Stomp said he was confident that a break in the case will be coming soon. "I wouldn't be surpised to see him thaw-I mean-turn up safe sound sometime after the next win, er, week.", Stomp said.
:lol
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View
Timmy is a first team all defense player every fucking year. The whole idea that he can't defend Amare or Dirk because he'll get in foul trouble is retarded, and it's a big contributing factor in the fact that the Spurs aren't defending a title this year. He's got enough experience not to foul. Unless they put FIBA referees in the playoffs, he's not going to be fouling out of games.
Dude, it's not retarded... it's a fact. That is what has often happened when they've put TD on Dirk and guys like that. That's not a reflection on Timmy's defensive ability... it's just the way it is when you guard a player like that. People get into foul trouble trying to defend Duncan all the time. It's just the reality.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by ShoogarBear
[size=4][b]Search Intensifies for Missing Spurs Coach
[size=2]San Antonio (AP) MAY 27, 2007- -Authorities today intensified their efforts as the investigation into the disappearance of San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich extended into its sixth day. Spurs players dismissed speculation that Popovich's disappearance had anything to do with unhappiness over the "Small Ball" style of play the Spurs employed in Game One.
:rollin he better not repeat that shit from last year :nope
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by smrattler
I agree that Elson's ability to at least be assigned to guard Dirk for good stretches is important to keep us "big" on defense. But more importantly (I think) is we can use Bowen more on JHo. Dirk had great numbers in that series last year. But TD had better numbers. I think the key was JHo was too big for his defenders (Barry, Fin, Manu). Bowen can slow him down enough. Dirk will have Dirk numbers this year again if we meet again in the playoffs. Whether it's on Elson or Bowen, he'll get his usual numbers, there is no stopping him really, but if we're lucky, he has low FG % shooting nights every now and then. But I think Bowen can really get Howard zero'd in on and slow him down on offense [B](if he can keep him off the boards). [/B] Being able to use Bowen on Howard and Stack might be the real key, and that is only possible if someone else can take Dirk more often.
I'm glad you mentioned this. IMO its the primary reason the Spurs were outsted last year against Dallas. I've never seen Dirk have the rebounding totals that he had against the Spurs against anyone else, ever.
The Spurs gotta stay big and force a lot of jumpers. Letting any team kill you on the boards (especially in the playoffs) is asking for trouble. Call me crazy, but I see rebounding as the weak link in the Spurs usually dominant defensive schemes. If we struggle on the boards, we lose. (examples like Matt Harpring in the first game in Utah or Jason Kapono in Miami come to mind....)
Enter Franscisco Elson. Not a game breaker, but he fits the bill when it comes to getting key rebounds after missed shots and keeping up with Dirk. Face it, Bruce on Dirk is murder when it comes to rebounding.
Anyone else notice a correlation between Elsons return to the lineup and the Spurs play of late? Coincidence? I don't think so.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by dirk4mvp
The first game of the season Spur fans were ready to crown him as a king then found out he sucked and now he's a key to beat the Mavs. Interesting.
Another junior varsity take. Great! :depressed
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by DubMcDub
You really don't fit in here. Your posts of reason and intelligence stick out like a sore thumb.
Is that sarcasm or seriousness?
I just try to look at things objectively. I'm not kissing any Mavs fans ass, that's the last thing I would do. But I definitely do NOT want to be ignorant.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
Actually, I'm really hoping to see how Elson makes a difference, granted we make it to face the Mavs in the playoffs.
His ability and speed should suffice. But yeah, I'm glad we have Elson merely for his speed and length at the five. He is a refreshing alternative to the maladaptive bigs we had last year. (Nothing against Rasho or anything.)
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by Kent_in_Atlanta
Dude, it's not retarded... it's a fact. That is what has often happened when they've put TD on Dirk and guys like that. That's not a reflection on Timmy's defensive ability... it's just the way it is when you guard a player like that. People get into foul trouble trying to defend Duncan all the time. It's just the reality.
Believe it or not, Timmy has drawn some difficult defensive assignments in his career, and he doesn't often end up in foul trouble. He's not a fucking china doll that has to be protected from the other top players in the league. Timmy was the only one patrolling the lane during the layup drill that was the western conference semis last year and he was in some foul trouble, more than he would have been if they'd just had him play Dirk straight up. Amare was allowed to "go off" on the Spurs because the Spurs were committed to stopping the three point shooters and didn't double. Ironically, it's the same philosophy that the Mavs employed against the Spurs.
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Re: Elson is a key ingredient to beating Mavs
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Originally Posted by td4mvp21
Is that sarcasm or seriousness?
I just try to look at things objectively. I'm not kissing any Mavs fans ass, that's the last thing I would do. But I definitely do NOT want to be ignorant.
Seriousness.
