Vaughn fits well as Spurs' mentor

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/b...n.36a72ee.html

Vaughn fits well as Spurs' mentor

Web Posted: 03/09/2007 10:43 PM CST

Johnny Ludden
Express-News

Matt Bonner bounced out of his sideline chair and onto the court when Spurs coach Gregg Popovich unexpectedly called on him in the third quarter of Thursday's game in Sacramento. His enthusiasm carried over when, seconds later, he cut the wrong way and nearly ran into Jacque Vaughn.
Popovich shook his head in frustration, spun on his heels, walked down the bench and muttered a few descriptive adjectives about Bonner's sense of direction. But as Popovich turned around to light into the young forward, Vaughn already was clutching Bonner around the hip, calmly explaining what he had done wrong.

The play didn't show up in the box score of the Spurs' 100-93 victory, but credit Vaughn with another assist. If nothing else, he saved Bonner from a potentially embarrassing blistering.

"That's my job," Vaughn said later, laughing.

The Spurs have benefited from Vaughn's steady hand on more than a few occasions during their 11-game winning streak. He more than capably filled in for injured starter Tony Parker for two games, sparking victories over Houston and the Los Angeles Clippers with his energy and hustle. On Tuesday, he helped direct the Spurs' comeback in Portland as Parker watched from the bench.

"He steps on the court and he takes over in the sense that everybody knows where they're supposed to be," Popovich said. "He'll help other people with what defense we are in, with the play call.

"His aggressiveness defensively — all those things just ups the level of competitiveness when he's on the court."

A 10-year veteran who has played for five franchises, Vaughn credits some of his leadership abilities to a point guard he'll see tonight. Before signing with the Spurs, Vaughn spent two seasons playing behind — and sometimes alongside — New Jersey's Jason Kidd.

"I learned a lot from Jason," Vaughn said. "I think the things that stand out were the fact that he could lead a team by example, the simple things like being at practice, being the first guy to do drills."

Vaughn also benefited from having a locker next to Utah's John Stockton for four seasons. As a rookie, Vaughn learned the value of day-to-day preparation from Stockton, who taught him how to be a professional.

The Spurs recognized as much when they went looking last summer for a veteran point guard to help mentor Beno Udrih and Parker. "We signed him like two minutes after the signing (period) opened up," Popovich said. "It was the first thing we did. We locked him up right off the bat."

At the time, the Spurs planned to have Udrih, who played infrequently last season behind Parker and Nick Van Exel, serve as the primary backup. Which is exactly what Popovich told Vaughn.

"I told him Beno sat all last year, so we're going to give him the ball this year ... and see how he does," Popovich said. "Stick with us. Stay in shape. Bide your time and see what happens."


Vaughn used the time to get know his teammates and learn the Spurs' offense and defense. He often sat next to Udrih on the bench and, when necessary, provided advice or encouragement.
"I never shy away from challenge, but at the same time I knew that with my experience and the places I've been that I could help Tony and Beno," Vaughn said. "I wasn't afraid to do that. I'm pretty OK in my skin right now."

Vaughn also has proved to be pretty OK on the court, too. Frustrated by Udrih's inconsistency, Popovich elevated Vaughn into the backup role when the Spurs began the second leg of their rodeo trip on Feb. 7 in Washington. The team has since gone 12-2.

Vaughn has averaged 4.4 points and 3.3 assists during that time, including 9.0 points and 6.0 assists in the two games he started for Parker. His biggest contributions, however, might be his on-the-ball defense and hustle: Against Houston last week, he scooped up a steal near midcourt with a pop-up slide before darting in for a layup.

"He makes all those little plays that win games, diving on the floor, getting loose balls," Parker said. "He's not maybe the most talented, you can say maybe Beno is more talented.

"But Jacque is playing very hard, and that's what Pop wants."

Whether from watching Vaughn or picking up his aggressiveness on his own, Udrih also played well during Parker's absence. He averaged 11.3 points in three games while making 6 of 8 3-pointers, including the go-ahead shot against Portland.

"We all know Beno can score and he's a heck of a passer," Popovich said. "But when it's money time I'm looking for the other stuff more often than the scoring. To Beno's credit, when we have called on him to get in there, he's done a good job."

With Parker assuming his usual workload Thursday against the Kings, Udrih didn't play. Vaughn, meanwhile, was on the floor at the end of the third quarter, directing traffic.

After Mike Bibby's layup cut the Spurs' lead to one, Vaughn found Bonner open from 25 feet. Three points for Bonner, another assist for Vaughn.

not to sound like a smartass or anything, but if the whole theme of this article is that Vaughn was signed to be a mentor to the younger point guards, then wouldn't he have to be considered a failure in that capacity since Beno played like crap the whole year? Actually, now that I think about it, Tony's game has regressed a bit too.

Thank God he's a decent backup PG because it seems to me that Vaughn's pretty shitty at this mentoring business. You know who must have been a great mentor? Nick Van Exel. Both Tony and Beno played great when he was here last season.

Tony's game has regressed this year? Interesting theory. Up until his hip pointer, he had probably never played better ball.

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.

So He is playing more like Iverson ans less like himself?

Gotta agree with ex on this one. Tony has been having his best season offensively IMO. Although his D isn't as good as it was the last time we won a title.

I've also become more impressed with Jacque as he's gotten comfortable on this team.

The fact that he already seems to have the d figured out is impressive...very few players have figured out the Spurs D to that degree within months of being on the team.

Jesus, here comes the "Parker should be averaging 15 assists per game" canard again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.

---

Parker's has a J now, a good one. His FG% last year was among the best in NBA history for a PG. This year he's pretty good too..

Why do you think the coaches elect him to the AS game? And it more impressive they voted him in this season than it was last season.

I mean holding that dip in FG% against him is like holding it against Jordan that he's scoring 35ppg instead of 37.



You can't judge a Spurs passing ability by his assist totals...they run the ball through Duncan, they run it through Manu...as team the Spurs assists totals are great and this is one of the better offensive teams of the Pop era.


And Tony is having his best year from 3 as well...


And most importantly...Parker has carried the team offensively and in the clutch more than he has in any previous years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Jesus, here comes the "Parker should be averaging 15 assists per game" canard again.

---

Werd.

And even if you look only at his stats, Parker is doing his better year.

He averages 0.5 less turnovers per game and it's more meaningfull than his 3% drop in a FG%.

Haters.... :rolleyes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by whottt

Parker's has a J now, a good one. His FG% last year was among the best in NBA history for a PG. This year he's pretty good too..

---

Bingo. His jumper is SO much better, and it opens the paint for other players when he can hit it. His increased FT% also benefits the team, and is huge for a primary ballhandler. His assist numbers will never be great in a motion offense. It's the nature of the beast. Too many players touch the ball for you to expect Tony to be THE player that delivers the assist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.

---

His points and assists are virtually the same as last year because he's playing more than a minute less this year. Divide it and see. Per minute, his assists are very very slightly down and his points are very very slightly up.

His field goal percentage is basically the only thing that is down - and I am not sure anyone expected him to repeat the phenomenol FG% of last season - but no one should be complaining about 52% from the floor from a point guard.

Quote:

---

I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season.

---

05-06 - 6.8 per 40
06-07 - 6.7 per 40

I wouldn't be so concerned over a 0.1 drop.

Vaughn's leadership is akin in 03 to a Danny Ferry role that he had.

He would pull he newbies aside and tell them their mistakes and what not.

Vaughn might not be this high scoring high assisting point guard that everyone clamors for in a poin guard. Although, since hes gotten the backup primary nod, his play has been phenomenal.

The defense, and the baskets he gets for others with his drives are pretty darn good.

Especially Duncan, Elson, Oberto. He seems to find them right NEAR the basket alot for easy shots...

:tu on the signing of Vaughn so far.

I never said he's not playing good or that he didn't deserve to be an All-Star, I simply said he was a little better last year. I don't know why everyone is so defensive about that. It's possible to be a good player and not have your career year.

It's not like it's Tim's best season either and most people agree that his prime is behind him. Doesn't mean he's still not a fabulous player.

I think Tony was amazing in December. Just incredible that month. Since then though his numbers have sagged noticably for whatever reason. It's like as Manu's gotten better, Tony's gotten worse.

And you're being very silly Chump. 15 assists? Show me anybody who ever said such a dumb thing. But 7, 7.5 should certainly be a reasonable goal. Neither you nor Kori can honestly tell me that Pop has been thrilled with Tony's passing lately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I never said he's not playing good or that he didn't deserve to be an All-Star, I simply said he was a little better last year. I don't know why everyone is so defensive about that. It's possible to be a good player and not have your career year.

---

I think maybe he "appeared a little better" last year because he had to assume a larger offensive load with Duncan hurt and Ginobili never really finding his groove last season. He was asked to shoot more, score more, pass more, etc. This season with Duncan healthy and recently Ginobili playing out of this world, he's taken a backseat somewhat. But his numbers are still around or better than his "Career" numbers.

Either way, I am happy with Vaughn and the leadership he's shown on the court recently. One thing I'm not so excited about: Elson seems have to regressed yet again in that time frame. :(

Quote:

---

But 7, 7.5 should certainly be a reasonable goal.

---

Why? Because you said so? I'm fine with the offense running through Tim and Manu. Why do you want to limit it to just Tony?

Quote:

---

Neither you nor Kori can honestly tell me that Pop has been thrilled with Tony's passing lately.

---

Do you have a quote to that effect?

We're on an 11-game win streak while Tony deals with multiple injuries. I understand all his detractors can do is focus like a laser on assist totals, that's their problem.

Quote:

---

Either way, I am happy with Vaughn and the leadership he's shown on the court recently. One thing I'm not so excited about: Elson seems have to regressed yet again in that time frame

---

So a couple bad games and hes regressed.

Funny.

Quote:

---

And you're being very silly Chump. 15 assists? Show me anybody who ever said such a dumb thing. But 7, 7.5 should certainly be a reasonable goal. Neither you nor Kori can honestly tell me that Pop has been thrilled with Tony's passing lately

---

He'll more than likely never average that due to the offense.

That, freakin, simple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1Parker1

I think maybe he "appeared a little better" last year because he had to assume a larger offensive load with Duncan hurt and Ginobili never really finding his groove last season. He was asked to shoot more, score more, pass more, etc. This season with Duncan healthy and recently Ginobili playing out of this world, he's taken a backseat somewhat. But his numbers are still around or better than his "Career" numbers.

---

That's a fair point. It is reasonable for him to score less with Tim and Manu doing more. But it's also reasonable for him to be averaging more assists then as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

That's a fair point. It is reasonable for him to score less with Tim and Manu doing more. But it's also reasonable for him to be averaging more assists then as well.

---

Not..in..this...offense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T Park

So a couple bad games and hes regressed.

Funny.




He'll more than likely never average that due to the offense.

That, freakin, simple.

---

That's BS. The offense isn't the way it is because Pop is necessarily in love with it, it's because Pop has no choice. But by no means does Pop dislike pass first point guards. AJ averaged 7.4 assists in our first title year and that was with TWO post up players.

And don't forget Pop wanted to bring Jason Kidd here as well.

Pop has pretty much given up trying to get Tony to think "pass" but I don't think for a second he's thrilled about it. I don't recall him ever saying he was disappointed that Tony passed too much after a game that Parker wound up with 8 or 10 assists.

And please Kori for the love of God, don't drag out the famous "I want him to shoot 25 times a a game" quote from the Kings' series last year.

ADELMAN HAD MIKE BIBBY ON HIM. He had Artest on Manu. Under those circumstances, yes I'd want Tony shooting as much as possible too. But the match-ups aren't so extreme against most teams and we'll be facing a lot of coaches in May smarter than Rick Adelman.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

That's a fair point. It is reasonable for him to score less with Tim and Manu doing more. But it's also reasonable for him to be averaging more assists then as well.

---

How can you expect his assists to go up? For the better part of the season, you had your top 3 bench players Horry, Finley, and Beno shooting around 30% or so. Even Bowen and Barry went through a tough shooting stretch there for a while. You can only rack up assists when the other person makes the basket and if you have teammates in a shooting slump, that's going to be hard to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T Park

So a couple bad games and hes regressed.

Funny.

---

I wasn't trying to be funny. :rolleyes

Quote:

---

And please Kori for the love of God, don't drag out the famous "I want him to shoot 25 times a a game" quote from the Kings' series last year.

---

When your point guard shoots better from the floor than Yao Ming, it's ok for him to take 15 shots a game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 1Parker1

How can you expect his assists to go up? For the better part of the season, you had your top 3 bench players Horry, Finley, and Beno shooting around 30% or so. Even Bowen and Barry went through a tough shooting stretch there for a while. You can only rack up assists when the other person makes the basket and if you have teammates in a shooting slump, that's going to be hard to do.

---

The team is shooting the exact same FG %, down to the thousanth, as we did last year: .472.

This year we're averaging 98.4 points and 22.3 assists as a team compared to 95.6 points and 20.9 assists last year.

So yeah, I'm not going to buy that one.

Manu is averaging a career-low in most every assist related stat. Although you'd never read that on this forum.

Some Spurs fans realize that this offense is a low post oriented motion offense that won't allow any single player to rack up huge amount of assists. Other Spurs fans don't want to realize it.

Quote:

---

That's BS. The offense isn't the way it is because Pop is necessarily in love with it, it's because Pop has no choice. But by no means does Pop dislike pass first point guards. AJ averaged 7.4 assists in our first title year and that was with TWO post up players.

---

Doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact, run a motion offense (which you seem not to understand how it operates at all), and that Nash would struggle to get 7 dimes here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

When your point guard shoots better from the floor than Yao Ming, it's ok for him to take 15 shots a game.

---

Get back to me when he gets to the line and make them like Yao Ming. Yao 1.45 points per shot, Tony 1.26.

Tony's not as efficient as he appears because A) he doesn't get to the line enough and B) doesn't hit a lot of threes. His 1.26 PPS is only 5th on the team and right at the team's average overall.

Believe it or not but in a lineup of Elson-Duncan-Barry-Ginobili-Parker, Tony would be the guy that other teams would most like to put it up.

Quote:

---

I wasn't trying to be funny

---

No I find it funny that you feel a player regresses after a couple bad games.

Quote:

---

When your point guard shoots better from the floor than Yao Ming, it's ok for him to take 15 shots a game.

---

SHHHH :lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I don't know what numbers y'all are looking at. I see fewer points, fewer assists, and a lower shooting %. He's averaging half a point less on a half more shooting attempt than last year. Basically he's getting to the free throw line less and it's hurting his efficiency.

While his free throw % and his defense have improved this season I'm concerned that his assist rate and his assists per 40 minutes have dropped for the second straight season. I can't understand why every part of his game continues to develop year after year but as a point guard he peaked two seasons ago.

---

Over a career so far.

Tony Parker is averaging 5.4 assists.
Compare that to James Silas' 3.8 career assist average....and Silas played in an era run and gun Spurs teams.
Many people consider him to be the best point guard the Spurs have ever had.

And you say Assist numbers should be higher? That is only part of what a point guard needs to do to be good. Just because TP's assists number aren't as high as other point guards doesn't mean he is not a good passer. Maybe he makes a pass that sets up the actual assist? That won't make it onto the stat sheet, but without that initial pass the actual assist may never be made.

I rank the point guards like this:
Tony Parker
Johnny Moore
James Silas
Johnny Dawkins
John Lucas

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by exstatic

Doesn't change the fact that they do, in fact, run a motion offense (which you seem not to understand how it operates at all), and that Nash would struggle to get 7 dimes here.

---

I'd bet my car, my TV, my computer and just about every possession I have that Nash could easily get 7 assists in this offense or any other.

Quote:

---

Get back to me when he gets to the line and make them like Yao Ming. Yao 1.45 points per shot, Tony 1.26.

Tony's not as efficient as he appears because A) he doesn't get to the line enough and B) doesn't hit a lot of threes. His 1.26 PPS is only 5th on the team and right at the team's average overall.

Believe it or not but in a lineup of Elson-Duncan-Barry-Ginobili-Parker, Tony would be the guy that other teams would most like to put it up.

---

Yeah, they would want Fracisco Elson to shoot before Tony parker.


What the fuck are you people drinking. Good god.

Quote:

---

I'd bet my car, my TV, my computer and just about every possession I have that Nash could easily get 7 assists in this offense or any other.

---

well i have a color one, dont want a pinto, the double wide isn't that great, so you prob wont have any takers.

Tony averaged 7.3 dimes in December. I guess Pop must have completely overhauled the offense since then. I must have missed that Ludden article.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

Tony averaged 7.3 dimes in December. I guess Pop must have completely overhauled the offense since then. I must have missed that Ludden article.

---

Since this is I team game I don't concern myself with individual averages too much....I concern myself with team averages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I'd bet my car, my TV, my computer and just about every possession I have that Nash could easily get 7 assists in this offense or any other.

---

Nash didn't average 7 assists per game until he was more than two years older than Tony currently is.

You can send your possessions to:

21 SpursTalk Lane
San Antonio, TX 78250
In care of Beno Udrih

Thanks.

:smokin

:lmao

Quote:

---

Tony averaged 7.3 dimes in December. I guess Pop must have completely overhauled the offense since then. I must have missed that Ludden article

---

check the team field goal percentage for that month as compared to others.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by timvp

Manu is averaging a career-low in most every assist related stat. Although you'd never read that on this forum.

---

That's because Finley and Tony don't try to hit their shots when Manu passes it to them.

Plus, I believe the official motto of the CoM is Just give the ball to Manu and get out of his way®.

I really don't understand why you all are being so stubborn. You can check every reputable source you want, Hollinger, 82games.com, Wagesofwins, etc. You won't find one person who thinks critically and objectively about basketball that thinks Tony is having a better season this year than last.

It doesn't mean he's still not a great player. It just means he was better last season. How is that insulting? I don't get it. He went from being our best regular season player last year to 3rd best this year, that's all.

Funny, with parker is "objective" with Ginobili its "hate"

Typical :lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by timvp

Nash didn't average 7 assists per game until he was more than two years older than Tony currently is.

You can send your possessions to:

21 SpursTalk Lane
San Antonio, TX 78250
In care of Beno Udrih

Thanks.

:smokin

---

You mean his second season as a full time starter? Tony's started how many years now? Five?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

Believe it or not but in a lineup of Elson-Duncan-Barry-Ginobili-Parker, Tony would be the guy that other teams would most like to put it up.

---

:lmao

Yes, opposing teams regard Francisco Elson as a bigger offensive threat and key their defenses on him.

Quote:

---

He went from being our best regular season player last year to 3rd best this year, that's all.

---

Well for starters....part of those three best players was hurt last year. Remember Tim had PF all year and his numbers were way down.

Also every player has fluctuations in their careers....even the very best of them.....I base it on overall play of the team and how they fit in with the other 11 players on the team.

Quote:

---

Yes, opposing teams regard Francisco Elson as a bigger offensive threat and key their defenses on him.

---

Isn't he the one that gets double teamed in the post and has to kick it out to parker who then hogs the ball and shoots?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T Park

No I find it funny that you feel a player regresses after a couple bad games.

---

I love how you always give this sarcastic/defensive responses to people without actually using some substance to back it up. Here is Elson's stat-line since his amazing 18 rebound effort against the Pistons:

vs. Hawks:

2 points, 2 rebounds, and 5 fouls in 12 minutes.

vs. Sonics
6 points, 2 rebounds in 22 minutes

vs. Raptors
6 points, 5 rebounds in 28 minutes--but I'll give you this one because he played solid defense on Bosh.

vs. Magic
2 points, 2 rebounds in 16 minutes

vs. Houston
13 points, 8 rebounds in 33 minutes

vs. Kings
4 points, 2 rebounds, 5 fouls in 12 minutes


And these are just stats. More telling, his defense is still not where it should be at this point. He feel for the most basic fake pumps against the Kings and Corlos Williamson the other night. He still doesn't know how to set a halfway decent screen...the most basic staple of basketball defense. He's still too inconsistent for me.

Anyway, to each her own. But next time you want to comment on my post, try bringing some actual substance and facts to the table instead of sarcastic one-liners. :rolleyes

Quote:

---

But next time you want to comment on my post, try bringing some actual substance and facts to the table instead of sarcastic one-liners

---

so now we can't give an opinion without stats?


Thank you forum police.

BTW, you give me the game against Bosh, but not Houston were he gets 13 and 8 :lmao

Whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T Park

Funny, with parker is "objective" with Ginobili its "hate"

Typical :lol

---

Um.. Manu has a +/- that's 87 points better than Tony despite Parker having logged over 500 more minutes on the floor with Duncan. :rolleyes

Notice that you totally avoided what I said.

Defenses would fear us if only we had Jamaal Tinsley.

Tony's good, he's fine. But I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't trade him in two seconds for Chris Paul. And I bet Pop would too.

Gee, and you think he wouldn't trade Manu in two seconds for Dwyane Wade?

Quit betting what Pop would say. You haven't backed up one thing you claim he thinks.

I'm still waiting on your quote from him saying he's unhappy with Tony's passing.

You'd trade him for Jamaal Tinsley. Admit it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShoogarBear

Gee, and you think he wouldn't trade Manu in two seconds for Dwyane Wade?

---

Wow you think Paul is that much better than Tony? That's quite a comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

You'd trade him for Jamaal Tinsley. Admit it.

---

No, Paul is pretty much the only young point guard I'd rather have. Though Deron Williams is tempting. I think Calderon's going to be a pretty special player in a couple of years too, but he's already older than Tony.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Quit betting what Pop would say. You haven't backed up one thing you claim he thinks.

I'm still waiting on your quote from him saying he's unhappy with Tony's passing.

---

There was a Ludden article a couple months back to that effect and Tony even said after a game that Pop wanted him to pass more. CIA Pop denied it afterward. And you haven't backed up anything you've said with any credible stats.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

Wow you think Paul is that much better than Tony? That's quite a comparison.

---

What are you talking about? Chris Paul, taking into account his potential, is a top 3-5 point guard.

Are you actually admitting that any player could be that much better than St. Manu?

Just admit you hate Tony Parker, and we can all move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

There was a Ludden article a couple months back to that effect and Tony even said after a game that Pop wanted him to pass more. CIA Pop denied it afterward. And you haven't backed up anything you've said with any credible stats.

---

11-0.

Kori already posted the stats relevant to the "much worse than last year" argument.

Do you need them repeated to you like a three year old?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

No, Paul is pretty much the only young point guard I'd rather have. Though Deron Williams is tempting. I think Calderon's going to be a pretty special player in a couple of years too, but he's already older than Tony.

---

So what's the problem? The Spurs have the second best young point guard according to you.

Not all five players on the court can be named Manu.

Quote:

---

There was a Ludden article a couple months back to that effect and Tony even said after a game that Pop wanted him to pass more.

---

Back when you said Tony was playing his best? Make up your mind.

I don't hate any Spur. It's sad that this debate has devolved into this petty name-calling bitchfest. Everyone gets all defensive because I said Tony was a bit better last season than this. If you disagree it's your burden. The numbers are on my side. I'm done with it.

Let's see if there's even the remotest chance we can get this thread back on topic...

So, how bout that Jacque Vaughn, huh? :spin

Quote:

---

I don't hate any Spur. It's sad that this debate has devolved into this petty name-calling bitchfest. Everyone gets all defensive because I said Tony was a bit better last season than this. If you disagree it's your burden. The numbers are on my side. I'm done with it.

---

Summarized as,

"I lost the arguement so Ill accuse others of namecalling, you meanies win"

I didn't lose anything. I know I'm right. If y'all can't read statistics or refuse to then I can't make you.

:lol

You totally got owned by Shoogar and Chump just admit you were wrong and move on.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/b...S.20e932c.html

January 21, vs. Sixers. Not December, but still "a couple months ago" as I said. Can it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I didn't lose anything. I know I'm right. If y'all can't read statistics or refuse to then I can't make you.

---

Yes, and because you can list statistics, you automatically feel that you have a superior argument which is infallible to the statements or opinions of others.

You're bitching about our PG play while we're on a 12 game winning streak and he's nursing an injury.

You're upset about one player's assist total on a team that has never, for one second, in the course of the past decade, been concerned about a single stat of a single player. This might be due to the fact that the Spurs are a team that transcends individual statistics in favor of team greatness, but who knows.

You're criticizing an all-star point guard putting together one of his finest seasons with an evolving jumpshot.


Most of all, anyone who responds to your criticisms without statistics are summarily dismissed by you as worthless and beneath a person of your intellect to offer rebuttal against beyond more stats.

And you wonder why this thread degenerated? Gee, it beats me too.

The whole thread started with me making a joke about Vaughn's mentoring skills because I wrote that Tony and Beno were both a bit better last season. But everyone took it serious and ran with it. I don't understand why people here operate in such extremes. If I wish Tony passed more it means I "HATE" Tony. If I say he was a bit better last year it means I think he "sucks" this year. Everything is black/white on this board. It's ridiculous how you people are being.

Apparently Tony is supposed to just get better and better every year until he retires.

I think aaronstampler is correct, strictly in a factual sense. You can demonstrate that Parker's production this year is inferior compared with his production last year. And I believe statistics are very useful - but I would like to make two points about statistics as they relate to the topic...uh, I mean, as they relate to Tony Parker. (Poor Jacque, a thread about him has nothing at all to do with him - the life of a journeyman)

My points:

1) Reading statistics is useful and beneficial, and so is observing on-court events. However, there are illusions and omissions in the statistical record, and also are there illusions and omissions in the observation of on-court events.

Statistical illusions relative to the "assist" exist when a team plays for fewer possessions; they exist when a team attempts to exploit matchups rather than run a set offense; they exist when a team elects to run an offense through a post player; they exist when the official scorer is generous or stingy when interpreting what an assist is; they exist when a teammate fails to convert a wonderful pass, and they exist when a player delivers a pass to teammate and that teammate makes a very difficult shot. There are other "assist" illusions that I don't care to take the time to list, and there are still other "assist" illusions that I'm not even aware of - but to be sure, a player's ability to produce the assist is subjected to many factors beyond his ability to pass the ball. I would even say that, because it is a statistic more reliant on interpretation than any other basic statistic (points, rebounds, steals, blocks), the assist is the most suspect statistic of the basic five.

But as I said before, observing on-court events has its own set of illusions and omissions. If for instance, I watch the Spurs play the Pistons twice in November (the only two regular season meetings of the year), how will that be useful in assessing the Spurs-Pistons Finals matchup in June? Months have passed. Players are banged up. More than likely, the two teams involved look very different in June than they did in May. Rotations are shorter and more stable. No doubt it would be more useful to compare the two teams' performances over the length of the season and the playoffs, but we're only observing on-court events, not the record. Again, continuing with my hypothetical scenario, we may recall how the Spurs played against the Mavericks compared with how the Pistons played against the Bulls in each team's conference final, but what does that tell us? The Pistons breezed through the Bulls and the Spurs struggled with the Mavericks, OK - but how does that provide any insight into the upcoming Finals? Detroit will be playing a tougher team than the Bulls, while the Spurs will be playing an easier opponent than the Mavericks, based upon records. Of course, we're only observing game action and not referencing the record, so in that scenario we don't know that Dallas had a better season than Detroit.

The point is, game and series prediction and player evaluation isn't easy - but it's a lot harder when unable or refusing to make use of one set of tools. Season ticket holders may not care a whit about stats and bloggers may not get to see more than a handful of games per year. In that case, stat-blind season ticket holders and bloggers without cable are at a disadvantage while trying to figure out how a season will play out - or if their team's second-round draft pick is a promising player.

2) A decline in performance is not particularly noteworthy if it's an insignificant decline.

aaronstampler pointed out, correctly, that Parker has shown decline in several categories this season. In 2006, Parker averaged 18.9 points on 54.8% from the field and 70.7% from the line. He also averaged 5.8 assists against 3.1 turnovers.

This season, he is down across the board save free throws: 18.4 points on 51.8% with 5.4 assists. Decline in stats, sure - but what has this decline cost the Spurs? How many losses does .5 points, .3 assists, and .03 percent in shooting account for? (Considering how many factors are involved with the outcome of a ball game, my own guess is much less than one loss) If these meager declines contribute significantly to Spurs losses, does his improvement free throw percentage (78%) and turnover average (2.6) not offset at least some of that?

Now if Parker is averaging 14 points on 44% with 4 assists to 2 turnovers, maybe then we have something to discuss. But for me, Parker has been his usual self plus a few more bumps and bruises. In fact, his virtually identical performance compared with last year is notable considering the fact he has taken a few more lumps.

Watch the games? Absolutely. Examine the record? Absolutely. But always remember not to put too much faith into either one - the records and the naked eye can both tell lies.

All you need to do is a search on posts by aaronstampler with the word Parker. They speak for themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Yes, and because you can list statistics, you automatically feel that you have a superior argument which is infallible to the statements or opinions of others.

You're bitching about our PG play while we're on a 12 game winning streak and he's nursing an injury.

You're upset about one player's assist total on a team that has never, for one second, in the course of the past decade, been concerned about a single stat of a single player. This might be due to the fact that the Spurs are a team that transcends individual statistics in favor of team greatness, but who knows.

You're criticizing an all-star point guard putting together one of his finest seasons with an evolving jumpshot.


Most of all, anyone who responds to your criticisms without statistics are summarily dismissed by you as worthless and beneath a person of your intellect to offer rebuttal against beyond more stats.

And you wonder why this thread degenerated? Gee, it beats me too.

---

Of course...aaronstampler will list stats and stuff and ignore the bigger picture...I posted stats compring to another Spurs' great and he ignored it totally.
I posted a statistical comparison to Parker and James Silas (who was revered by many Spurs fans. Parker compared quite favorably to him with better asisst numbers and Parker's career has really just begun....and this was over Silas' total career. On top of that Silas played in an area of the Spurs' run and gun where many NBA teams averaged over 100 points and just a few.
Another reason TP's assists are lower is because of the offense the Spurs run which alot Tim....if the Hornets had a player like Timmy and to some extent Manu...I bet Paul's assists would be lower as well.

Actually...other than assists....if some of the other Spurs were more consistent this year....TP's assist total would be higher too. Parker is in the same class as Chris Paul.
Here are stats from this year.

Chris Paul:
PPG 17.1
RPG 4.1
APG 8.8
SPG 1.89
BPG .02
FG% .431
FT% .808
3P% .314
MPG 36.7
To's 2.59

Tony Parker:
PPG 18.4
RPG 3.3
APG 5.5
SPG 1.07
BPG .07
FG% .519
FT% .779
3P% .438
MPG 32.7
TO's 2.60

Parker's FG% is loads better that Paul's...and most of this is playing 4 min fewer than Paul per game.

You want stats aaronstampler....here's one that IMO is more important than individual stats. This is a team sport so I will post the team's averages.
Spurs 22.3 asst/gm
Hornets 18.2 asst/gm


Would I be disappointed if the Spurs had Paul instead of Parker? Not really.
Would I trade Parker for Paul? No way.

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.

Aaron...Pop routinely describes Tony as a "stud".

Also, your take isn't exactly cutting edge with regards to Parker's assists...it's been argued about for years.

Go talk to IceColdBrewski sometime.

It's not that people are getting defensive, it's that your take is one that gets destroyed annually....


Check some of the older threads...you are not the first to make this claim.

tp had to do more last year because td and manu were hurt alot
he is having a better year this year even though his stats do not say that much

his outside shot is much better

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.

---

And so obviously, by extension, this means he will be equally as worthless in the playoffs. :depressed

Quote:

---

Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not

---

:lol

Tony makes no difference for this team whatsoever now? You're simply an idiot.

Chump, why are you listed as a Hawks fan? Did you lose a bet?

Someone's gotta be one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

Someone's gotta be one.

---

:lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.

---

Hmmm.....maybe it is because he more last because NVE was his backup mainly and did practically nothing. Along with Beno. This year Vaughn has been a serviceable backup and Beno has played better of late. Plus the reason Tim was so low last year was because he was hurt or do you selectively omit that part of it to try to improve your argument?

Were did you get those numbers? Do you have a link to the site?

82games.com

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

:lol

Tony makes no difference for this team whatsoever now? You're simply an idiot.

---

I got hard data, you have name calling. Welcome to American discourse in 2007

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I got hard data, you have name calling. Welcome to American discourse in 2007

---

Chump is right, you can throw statistical data around all you want but ultimately your work is an inexplicable phenomena... if you are asserting that this team would be better or no different without tony then 1) you don't watch many Spurs games or 2) you posses no common sense whatsoever... where pray tell, would the Spurs find a replacement for Tony's 19 ppg and 5.5 apg?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

I got hard data, you have name calling. Welcome to American discourse in 2007

---

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Number jockeys are horrible coaches, and this is an example why. You simply don't understand the game, because you think the numbers are the paragon of reason in sports. You choose to see the flaws in Parker's numbers rather than his improvement with his jumper and his decreased need to dominate the possession during our offensive sets, which we needed last year. You probably (if old enough) were one of the few people calling out Scottie Pippen for being less effective when Jordan came out of retirement. Cause we all know Pippen sucked after MJs return. :lol

Parker's numbers are slightly down. Congratulations on "proving" that. The sad fact is that every other Spurs fan is trying to get you to understand why, and you continually bury your head in the sand and mutter, "But his numbers are down, so he's playing worse this year!"

People aren't calling you names because you're listing stats. they're slinging mud at you because that's the extent of your repertoire. Explanations have been offered to you, and you choose to shake your head and point at the stats and continually mutter about how he's declining in effectiveness. You don't listen to anyone except a box score, and it's annoying people for wasting our time when you only want to trumpet your ability to copy-paste numbers from nbastatistics.com.

Well, guess what. Spurs fans only look at one stat. For the past twelve games, it's been all in the first column and nothing in the second.

You probably (if old enough) were one of the few people calling out Scottie Pippen for being less effective when Jordan came out of retirement. Cause we all know Pippen sucked after MJs return. <<

See there's that word again. Sucked. I have not once used a word like that in this entire thread. You people are the one who throw out black/white words like best, worst, love, hate and sucks. I haven't done that. I've pointed out numerous times that I think Tony is playing well generally and that I had no problem with his All-Star selection. What is your issue here?

Secondly I find it disengunuous for you to suggest that the reason for Tony's numbers dropping is because his teammates are carrying more of the load. Not only is Tony's averaging more FG attempts this year than last (ooh sorry, I used a statistic again) but as one of your cohorts pointed out several Spurs like Horry, Finley and Bruce have shot rather poorly this year.

The fact of the matter is Tony is using more possessions this year than ever. He's just not as efficient with those possessions as he has been in the past. The major reason why is he's not getting to the line enough and since he doesn't shoot many threes, his improved FT% hasn't compensated enough. It's great that he's improved his jumper a little, but at the end of the day it's still a 2 point field goal and not nearly as likely to be successful as a lay-up attempt. And lay-up attempts get you to the foul line. Trust me, it doesn't upset any coach in the league when Tony is casting up 18 footers, regardless of if they're falling or not.

if you are asserting that this team would be better or no different without tony then 1) you don't watch many Spurs games or 2) you posses no common sense whatsoever... where pray tell, would the Spurs find a replacement for Tony's 19 ppg and 5.5 apg?>>

I find it ironic that you can throw out such an obtuse statement and accuse me of being the one without common sense. Whenever any player from any sport misses a game it's not like they're replaced by thin air. When Yao got hurt for the Rockets it's not like they played 4 on 5 for 30 games and automatically sacrificed 25 points and 12 rebounds. Sports don't work that way. It's up to the next man down the ladder to step up. Tony's shot attempts don't magically go *poof!* when he's gone. They just because shot attempts for someone else. And I'm pretty certain that our offense didn't get 19 points or 5.5 assists worse in his absence. Actually we've scored 98.3 a game in the three games he's missed, so I think that's pretty good. I'm not saying Tony won't be a difference maker or a critical player for this team's success in the playoffs. I'm just saying he hasn't been thus far and it seems that a large portion of this board is overrating him, perhaps as a backlash for all the Manu worship (guilty as charged there).

Well, guess what. Spurs fans only look at one stat. For the past twelve games, it's been all in the first column and nothing in the second.<<

Finally, your implication that I can't be a Spurs fan because I look at the game differently than you is pretty offensive. I wasn't aware that there was some kind of application form I had to fill out telling me what the rules are to being a Spurs fan. You've got some people on this board who want Ron Artest on the team and as far as I know, they're allowed to be Spurs fans. Everyone's different. Every game the Spurs play I root for them to win, and I'm pretty sure that's the extent of all I need to do to qualify as a Spurs fan.

Quote:

---

I'm not saying Tony won't be a difference maker or a critical player for this team's success in the playoffs.

---

No, you just say he makes no difference now.

so far, not so much, no. Especially during this winning streak. I'm telling you, his best month was December.

But he made no difference then either according to you, so what does that matter?

People should learn to read stats :

1) Parker best statiscal year is this year not last year. His FG% is maybe 3% lower and he averages something like 1% less points and assists per minutes but in the same time he average 0.5 less turnover per game and it overtakes all other stats. His PER (who is the most accurate stat) has raised from 22.3 to 22.5.

2) Comparing +/- stats when Parker is on the court and of the court is quite stupid because when Parker isn't on the court, it's either when Spurs played against the opposite second team or it's during garbage time. If people aren't sold about that : last year Spurs have allowed 101.3pts/100poss with Bowen on the court (98.6 when he was off the court), Spurs have allowed 97.9 pts/100 poss when Barry was on the court ( 101.7 when he was off the court). So Barry is a better defender than Bowen.

Since people are throwing around numbers: where is the evidence that PER is the "most accurate stat"?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aaronstampler

No matter what you think of me, I did come across some numbers that I think are fascinating. Just look at this and tell me if you think it's all completely insignificant.

These are his '05-06 numbers
Minutes 2711 1242 68%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.6 104.4 +6.2
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 99.8 101.9 -2.1
Net Points per 100 Possessions +10.7 +2.5 +8.3

Now this is the '06-07 Season...

Minutes 1898 1049 64%
Offense: Pts per 100 Poss. 110.4 110.4 -0.0
Defense: Pts per 100 Poss. 101.2 100.8 +0.4
Net Points per 100 Possessions +9.1 +9.6 -0.4


Last year Tony was a big difference maker for us. Our offense was significantly better with him and the defense was improved as well. His net +8.3 per 100 possessions led the team (Manu was next closest as 7.6, Tim was 5.0).

Now consider this year's data. The scoring doesn't drop off one iota when he's not on the floor and the defense is even a tiny bit better. Essentially it really hasn't mattered if Tony has played or not, we're getting the same results. His net -0.4 per 100 possessions is 7th on the club behind Tim (12.6), Manu (10.9), Bruce (7.3), Jacque (5.0), Robert (2.0), and Frankie (+0.3).

I can't make anyone here think these numbers mean anything. Maybe they're all a complete fluke. But they tell me two things: 1) Tony's teammates are playing way better 2) He's playing a bit worse.

---

according to 82games.com Ely has a +33.9...maybe he should start instead of Tim if you want to go by stats alone. :rolleyes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bruno

People should learn to read stats :

1) Parker best statiscal year is this year not last year. His FG% is maybe 3% lower and he averages something like 1% less points and assists per minutes but in the same time he average 0.5 less turnover per game and it overtakes all other stats. His PER (who is the most accurate stat) has raised from 22.3 to 22.5.

2) Comparing +/- stats when Parker is on the court and of the court is quite stupid because when Parker isn't on the court, it's either when Spurs played against the opposite second team or it's during garbage time. If people aren't sold about that : last year Spurs have allowed 101.3pts/100poss with Bowen on the court (98.6 when he was off the court), Spurs have allowed 97.9 pts/100 poss when Barry was on the court ( 101.7 when he was off the court). So Barry is a better defender than Bowen.

---

Your numbers are ridiculously inaccurate. I'm looking at the numbers right now. Last year they allowed 105.8 per 100 possessions with Brent on the floor and 97.4 when he was off. With Bruce they allowed 98.1 per 100 possessions when he was on, 106.3 when he was off. Thus, Bruce was, pretty safely, a better defender than Brent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShoogarBear

Since people are throwing around numbers: where is the evidence that PER is the "most accurate stat"?

---

I'm looking at Hollinger's PER numbers and he's got Parker doing better last year. 20.89 last year, 20.72 this year. In fact, Tony is doing worse than Hollinger's projection for him because quite reasonably he was expecting Tony to improve this year, not get worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cherylsteele

according to 82games.com Ely has a +33.9...maybe he should start instead of Tim if you want to go by stats alone. :rolleyes

---

Small sample sizes much?...

doofus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChumpDumper

But he made no difference then either according to you, so what does that matter?

---

As I've said many times, Tony played quite fabulously in December. How many times do I have to repeat myself? If Tony played like that every month he'd be our best player.

But for the year, if you ask "any NBA coach," they'll say it doesn't matter if Parker is on the court or not, right?