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I was :reading wikipedia and there it states that taken overall the 57th pick, some commentators consider him the greatest draft steal in modern NBA history. Perhaps of all time.
Now I've never given it much thought. I know he's the biggest steal in Spurs history. What are your thoughts?
yess he is!! that guy is awsome
He may be the steal of all time. I think there have been some effective bench players drafted in that area, but can't remember any other All Stars. Arenas was an All Star and a second rounder, but he was picked somewhere in the 30s, IIRC.
Gilbert Arenas would also be considered as such. I don't know where he was picked in the 2nd, but I know for sure he was a 2nd round pick.
whoever is pickd in 2nd round or not drafted is considered a steal, and guys who are lottery picks who end up HOFs imo are not draft steals cause any other fuckn team would draft the top prospect
i dunno, i think ben wallace is the biggest steal ever. now obviously manu is more skilled and has a better resume but wallace, as a defensive big, is more valuable, won a dpoy, started a couple all star games, and dude wasnt even drafted, not even with the 57th pick. dont think anybody saw that coming.
otoh the 96 draft was quite deep, but there were still plenty of stiffs taken ahead of him.
Rashard Lewis was a second rounder too. And wasnt John Starks undrafted?
Lewis went 32 I think. I remember watching him in high school (lived in Houston at the time), and the media hyped him so hard. I think the only reason he came out was because the Rockets assured him they would take him at 14, and instead, they took Michael Dickerson at 14, Mirsad Turkan at like 17 or 18, and Bryce Drew in the 20s. Dumbasses.
did starks go to the allstar gameQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Arenas was picked at 31, two picks into the second round. Lewis was picked at 32. Not really close to 57 at all. In fact, those two picks are closer to the lottery in the other direction than they are to #57.
Manu >>>>>>>> Rashard LewisQuote:
Originally Posted by stretch
i question one of his DPOY awards, the year where he was suspended part of the pacer/pistons crowd brawl and ron artest missing the whole season, tim duncan got robbed that year. Seriously if you missed 10 games and can win dpoy, but ur not in the equation of mvp if your a candidate that misses 10 games....lame.Quote:
Originally Posted by diego
I like Ben Wallace, but there are years when they have to plug in PFs to the center spot at the ASG, because there are no good centers left. There are ALWAYS a bevy of great wing players to choose from.
Manu was a diamond in the rough when he was drafted. I read that the Spurs weren't even considering Manu as their first choice for their 57th pick that year. I heard it was another Argentine player.
The Spurs probably had no expectations of him, yet he helped to win 2 championships.
:lmao
Willis Reed?
Ben Wallace went undrafted, so he was not biggest "draft" steals.
Michael Redd was a pretty incredible steal at #43 in 2000.
And, there were some other great late draft picks as well:
Steve Kerr, # 50 overall in 1988
Drazen Petrovic, #59 overall in 1986
Kurt Rambis, #58 overall in 1980
Bill Laimbeer, #65 overall in 1979
Michael Cooper, #58 overall in 1978
Manu might be the best steal, but there were some other great players that came very late in the draft.
:huhQuote:
Originally Posted by polandprzem
Willis Reed was picked #10.
Brad Miller was also an undrafted All Star(and yes Manu is better than he is).
I'd say that since the draft was cut to 2 rounds Manu is the greatest steal...
Keep in mind though that in the era when the league was just a few teams, the NBA Draft used to be 20 rounds...there have probably been picks much later than the 2nd round to make the AS Game and perhaps even the HOF. But I can't say for certain...
What I can say is that Manu is definitely the steal in the 2 round era...
IIRC he was the second to last pick in the 99 draft...the fact that he's made an All Star Team, challenged for a finals MVP, and likely will be the 6thman of the year this year, makes him easily the steal of the modern era.
Gilbert Arenas is a stud, but I'd take Manu over him if I want to win...
I think there is a tendency to not look at what Manu is capable of on his own...because he's meshed into a team built around Duncan so well...but Manu is a franchise 2 guard and he's proven that in head to head play he can lead his team as well as Duncan.
Manu gets under-rated because of this, much like Drob did after he meshed his game around Duncan's...
Manu is definitely first round talent and arguably #1 overall pick talent in some recent drafts(like last years).
Man he was awesome :DQuote:
Originally Posted by baseline bum
btw - pretty quckly somebody checked it :)
:tu
Wasn't Michael Redd in the 40s?
redd and arenas are cornerstones to their franchises. manu is great, but he's the second or third best player on his team.
Manu was drafted 57th and the Spurs had no interest on letting him play. The next two years Manu was awesome in the Euroleague, and the Spurs thought him as ready. Our FA is lucky.
Manu could be a cornerstone for either of those franchises. Redd andQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave McNulla
Arenas are good, don't get me wrong, but where, exactly, have they led their franchises? Milwaukee won't even make the playoffs. Washington will, but they probably go out in round 2.
All three are good players, but to me, what sets Manu apart is that he is about winning. He'll start or come off the bench. He'll take over a game, or sit back and feed the hot hand. Manu is a leader. He's a diamond of a SG in a chest full of NBA cubic zirconia stones.
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Manu has said so many times that he doesn't give two fucks about his stats. Gilbert Arenas is the exact contradiction. I don't think there's ever been a player who has cared more about his stats than Arenas.
Redd is a great player as well, he is the cornerstone for the Bucks, but like exstatic said, what have the Bucks been doing the last few years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by EssaySpur1001
In the college ranks, he spent three years leading the offensive attack of Ohio State University garnering point averages of 21.9, 19.5, and 17.5, respectively. Michael Redd was then drafted after his junior year in the 2000 NBA Draft as a second round pick (43rd overall) by the Bucks.
THere you go. A good steal, but Ginobili is far higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Which is why we're more inclined to take Greg instead of Kevin.
Manu would arguably be the best since the draft has gone to two rounds.
Manu also took a group of Euro players, one other part time NBA starter (Noccioni) and a couple of NBA players to an Olympic gold over a veritable NBA All Star squad. He's won at just about everything he's put his efforts to: Euroleague, Olympics, NBA. The only thing he hasn't won is the WCs. He was injured, and they didn't win. :lol What a surprise.
Ginobili>Jordan
:lmao
You gotta be fucking kidding me?Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
:dizzy
Good player...not an overall #1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by whottt
Manu has started 36 of the 57 games he's played in. He's not getting the sixth man award this year.
And, that last comment is ridiculous. You don't look at what he's done professionally and then re-rank him in his draft class. You take the player as he was when he was drafted at 18, 19, 20, 21 years of age and the skills and potential he had then. You could argue plenty of players in the league could have been "arguably" the #1 overall pick in some drafts, like Kobe, KG, Dirk, Amare, etc. And, we don't know how good players like Tyrus Thomas, Bargnani, Rudy Gay, Brandon Roy are going to be. It's not like Manu is a 25 ppg scorer. It's not like he's a League MVP candidate. That statement was sooooo ridiculous.
36 of 59. If he comes off the bench the rest of the way, he's definitely eligible. But I think it will go to Barbosa or Lee.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
If you think being a great draft day steal is a big accomplishment, just wait until you get to the "little known trivia" section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=111979779
How many #1s have become All Stars recently?Quote:
Originally Posted by Que Gee
Here are the last ten #1 picks
97 Tim Duncan - first ASG 1998
98 Michael Olowokandi - none
99 Elton Brand - first ASG 2002
00 Kenyon Martin - first ASG 2004
01 Kwame Brown - none
02 Yao Ming - first ASG 2003
03 LeBron James - first ASG 2005
04 Dwight Howard - first ASG 2007
05 Andrew Bogut - none
06 Andrea Bargniani - none
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Are you sure? Do you know what number of games or percentage of games a player has to come off the bench in order to be eligible?
He's come of the bench 23 games then. Spurs have 18 games left. If he comes of the bench the rest of the way, that's 41 out of 76 games he would have come off the bench. Sure that would qualify him?
And, I agree that Leandro Barbosa has locked up the sixth man award for this season.
So, being an AS, he'd be in good company with most of the #1s, and better than some of the total busts like Kandi and Kwame.
I understand that you have to come off the bench for more games than you start. I haven't seen it written anywhere lately, but I heard that from quite a few people.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
RIF. Kori said he was definitely eligible if he comes off the bench the rest of the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
i don't know about that. manu plays big as long as his minutes are contained. when he plays too much, he'll contribute less. we'll probably never know, but i don't think manu can carry a team for the long haul.Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
It's just Wikipedia, which doesn't mean that much.
Quote:
The NBA Sixth Man of the Year Award is the award given by the National Basketball Association to the league's most valuable player for his team coming off the bench as a substitute (sixth man). To be eligible for the award, a player must come in off of the bench in more games than he starts. The winner is voted on by a group of basketball journalists.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Que Gee
You go right ahead.
You can have Yao and Bogut over him too...
Stiff lover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
That is the only requirement...I saw the rule mentioned in an excerpt for previous 6th man winners. Not Wiki...
I'd never trust anything I read on Wiki without a second source.
Anyone. who in retrospect of their careers, says they would take Michael Olowokandi over Manu is just a flat out fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by QueGee
Mehmet Okur was taken 38. Nick Van Exel was taken 37.
What about before their careers started? Granted, I don't follow college or international ball very closely so I knew nothing about them, but was it foolish before their careers started to pick a big over a guard?Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
Draftphiles will have to examine this question, not I.
the simple fact of the matter is that Ginobili is "arguably" the greatest draft steal in History due to many, many compensating factors. Including but not limited to, NBA champ, olympic gold medalist, all star, etc.... He can create some sensational plays and he makes you want to watch him, thats whats makes him most likely the greatest draft steal, his charisma is captivating.
That's a different discussion. What we're talking about is would Manu be a #1 pick overall, in retrospect. Then, QueGee chimed in with his foolishness about picking several known busts before Manu....Quote:
Originally Posted by SRJ
True, but Manu would be THE star on a lot, if not most, of the teams in the league. We're lucky to also have Duncan and Parker to play with him. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave McNulla
IMO, Manu also put the league's scouts on permanent notice there is a lot of great talent outside the US- not just the once in a decade player to make it here like Dirk was at the time. Now, there are foreign players drafted very high in almost every draft.
Drazen was a stud....
Michael Jordan was taken #3.
true wow he was only 20 or so when he was draftedQuote:
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
man he whould probably have made the HOF tcccccccc spurs would have won more title tcc
stupid POP!!!!!!!!! :wtf
Quote:
Originally Posted by exstatic
LMAO...QueeGee never said that, that was artistic license with quotes on my part.
What he said was that there's no way Manu is #1 overall pick talent.
I just listed a few of the #1's taken since Manu was. And I'd argue that Manu's draft ranking has a lot to do with year you are talking about drafting him.
Most of the doubts about Manu's ability would have been tied into lack of games against NBA talent...I think after 04 it's not a stretch to say he could have gone #1.
And there's absolutely no doubt he's a better player and more talented than about half the overall #1 picks taken since he was drafted.
Hell we could trade Manu for Olo, KMart and Kwame right now...I'd also take him over Yao and Bogut. Yao because he makes Manu look like AC Green.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
Manu wasn't awesome in the NBA to start his rookie season at age 25. So I'm not sure bringing him over at age 20 would have made him any better. He learned a lot and became better player in his experience in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by powerpower
(By the way, he was almost turning 22 when he got drafted, not 20).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
Yeah, for one thing we brought him over AFTER he won, and took his teams all the way to their goal, over in Europe.
Who's to say we would have brought over a young and rawer Manu too soon to help us?
Then again, people describe Manu as always being the same, and unchanged since being brought over, his game even looked the same in Europe highlights, maybe just less refined as it is now.
Manu could have been just like Tony in 2002, a little more under the control of Pop. By 2003, Manu came into the league more matured and knowing he can go all the way at least somewhere else. But eh, it's mostly speculation...but I think Manu winning the championships by himself over in the Euroleague did a lot to shape Manu's confidence, as a proven winner.
The Olympics 2004 Gold Medal was a big reason for Manu letting his game all out in 2005. If you consider how his elevated game came out of nowhere in 2005, maybe it was better overall we brought him in 2003.
I wouldn't chalk it up to his development as a player: you have some adjusting to do when you join the NBA from the FIBA world, and that holds whether you are 22, 25 or 29. And let's not forget he struggled all of his rookie season with a serious ankle injury. All in all, I'd say it's more like it took him a while for the NBA to see the Manu the FIBA world already knew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
He certainly improved a lot from the time he was drafted to when he was signed, but I'd be fairly confident in saying he was already damn good and NBA ready one or two seasons before that as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Sticking with the Spurs, where were James Silas and George Gervin drafted? I believe Silas would have been drafted by both the NBA and ABA. Because Gervin came out early, I don't know if the ABA drafted him (I don't believe the NBA would have).
Edit after searching . . .
Gervin was drafted in the third round of the 1974 NBA draft (40th overall) by Phoenix. He was drafted in the first round (#10) of a special circumstances ABA draft by Virginia in 1973.
Silas was drafted in the fifth round of the 1972 NBA draft (70th overall) by Houston.
Both have their jerseys hung from the rafters.
I doubt itQuote:
Originally Posted by Ariel
since you do not have a job scouting
Neither does anyone on this board, as far as I know. However, I have been watching Manu for about 10 years which at least makes my opinion informed, which sets me apart from you. That, of course, and the fact that I can express myself somewhat coherently, at least every once in a while.Quote:
Originally Posted by ducks
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamStone
Michael Cooper >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Manu
Drafted out of New Mexico by the Lakers in the third round of the 1978 NBA Draft (60th overall),
He won the NBA Defensive Player of the Year Award in 1987.
Member of five Lakers championship teams in 1980, 1982, 1985, 1987 and 1988.
"Coooooooop"
Michael Cooper supposedly was like a Bowen, EXCEPT he had the offensive game as well :wow
But Manu's a unique player of his own calibre too, so i don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz
" Larry Bird has always said that Cooper was the best defender he played against." Quote from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Cooper)
This would be a Laker fan's analysis, wouldn't it? Hard to find a greater argument than "Cooooooooop" :rolleyesQuote:
Originally Posted by LAKERS4LIFE
Coop had as much to do with those rings as Magic, Kareem, or Worthy?
I would take Michael Cooper over Manu any day.
Larry Bird also said that Lonnie Shelton had the best first step of anyone he had to guard. Larry Bird also game serious money to Austin Croshere. Larry Bird's assessments are notable, but not infallible.
Cooper was great value for a #60, I'll give him that.
Cooper only averaged about 9 points a game, I believe. He wasn't a huge offensive weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by ManuTim_best of Fwiendz
Don't mix up individual succes with team success, they are not the same. You put Arenas or Redd with Duncan and they win.Quote:
Originally Posted by ALVAREZ6
Arenas is better than manu. A more consistent scoring threat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SRJ
Just like Manu had as much to to do with the 2 rings as Duncan, Parker or Bowen.
My point is that Manu Ginobili, NOT the greatest draft steal in history?.
Just an opinion.
Cooper was not a big scorer because he didn't get the shots with the other Laker greats on that team but he was more athletic offensively than Bowen is. At least he could dribble the ball to the rim and make a layup without losing the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by rascal
Because Arenas takes 30 shots and horrible shots at that.
Just be grateful Manu doesn't care about his numbers or making the all-star team every year, otherwise a 2 of 8 would turn into a 8 of 20 night that many SG's force. Where Manu maintains a 22 point avg, killing the team in the process.
Like you said, "Don't mix up individual succes with team success" :rolleyes
I am aware of Michael Cooper's game. I lived in LA for 17 years, so I watched him play a bit - I wasn't saying that he was similar to Bowen. I was just pointing out to the original poster that he wasn't awesome offensively.Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal
I tihink you can say Manu was more crucial in getting their 3rd ring than >>>Bowen, Parker.Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKERS4LIFE
Not that they weren't key pieces. But when your'e talking Duncan Manu, in the 2005 finals
It's almost like talking about Magic and Kareem, just in the context of the Spurs team in 2005.
That ring argument is such a cop-out cuz all you had to do is watch the games to know who played the larger roles for their success.
In order Cooper was probably fourth in line in terms of valuability with Magic, Kareem, Worthy going ahead of them.
Just like in 2005 it went Tim, Manu, then Tony, then Bowen.
I knew that you weren't saying he was similar. I wanted to state he had a better offensive game then Bowen and was more of a threat although he did not put up huge stats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Michael Cooper was Bruce Bowen, basically.
From 2002-2006, Bowen has scored 7.3% of the Spurs points.
For his entire career, Michael Cooper scored 6.9% of the Lakers points.
Defensive specialist who can spot up and shoot the three? That's Bowen. And Cooper.
and I was just making a point that in comparison to Bowen, where Cooper WASN'T an offensive liability (at times).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Cooper was the more versatile defensive stopper.
agreed. hes a great player. no question about it. but without Tim, the Spurs are NOT championship contenders. without Manu, the Spurs still are championship contenders... because of Tim Duncan. if Arenas or Redd had played their entire careers with Duncan, the Spurs would probably have gotten 4 or 5 titles with them. Arenas and Redd are definitely more talented than Manu. sure, people can say Manu is a better winner... but first off, Arenas and Redd have never really had great teams. second, if they played with a team like the Spurs and a player like Duncan their entire career, i strongly doubt that Arenas would have ever turned into any kind of a selfish player. and Redd would fit PERFECTLY with Duncan.Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKERS4LIFE
i dont think Ginobili is the greatest draft steal by any stretch of the imagination. there are definitely far more talented and better basketball players that have been drafted late in drafts.
Denial much?Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
You must not have seen him play. Cooper had more offensive skills then bowen, was better offensively but the shots went to Magic, Kareem and Worthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by SRJ
Cooper could take the ball from court to court and nail a driving layup off a steal. Bowen cannot. Cooper also hit the long shot from on top of the key.
Bowen is limited to the corner 3 and if that is not falling he is worthless on the offensive end.
I saw him play, thanks. I'm not in the business of evaluating virtual skills - the COULD have dones, I was discussing actual production, and Cooper's basic role was the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal
I don't think you've seen Bowen enough if the corner 3 is all you've seen.
Manu was only a couple of votes away from being Finals MVP in 2005. He was absolutely HUGE in that championship run.Quote:
Originally Posted by LAKERS4LIFE
I have a hard time agreeing that he's the greatest draft steal of all time though.
I've never heard where Cooper was an offensively liability to those Laker teams. The same cannot be said of Bowen with the spurs.
The makeup of the teams were different and Cooper could step up on the offensive end at times when needed but for the most part the lakers had no problems on the offensive end with the players they had.
Just for some side-track, one of the most impressive steals by Manu would be the one he made against Richard Jefferson in Q4 of Game 6 of the 2003 Finals, which he converted to a 2-handed dunk.
As for whether Manu is the greatest draft steal in NBA history, only time will tell.
Cooper and Bowen are pretty much equivalents -- defensive specialists on championship teams. Team players.
They each had one offensive weapon and not much else on that end of the court. Bowen has the 3 from the corner. Cooper had the "Coop-a-Loop" alley oop dunk. Coop's play was more flashy but neither was much of an offensive threat -- they both knew where their bread was buttered.
LMAO @ rascal for saying Cooper was held back in the Lakers offense...
He probably doubled his offense over what he would have done playing for any other team...
Magic Johnson could make me into a 10 ppg scorer.
That's like saying Duncan and DRob hurt AJ's offense. Get that shit out of here rascal...your worst take ever.
Bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by rascal
Arenas has so many games where he's way off, and shoots terribly...and not only that but he shoots a hell of a lot more than Manu does.
Maybe that's the difference between Manu and "more talented" players who have never won anything.
Manu is a team player, yet capable of taking over a game like many superstars. But he's never thought of personal success or stats, he thinks in winning over anything else and sometimes to win you need an extra pass or let someone else stand up and take more o the last shot. I think that uncommon way of playing has taken Manu where he is. He's won almost everything he's put his effort in.
See, Tim is another one to do that, he won't complain if he doesn't get the last shot or if has to take 5 or 6 shots a game...
and he's won 3 rings.
And I think many of non-spurs fans can't really see Manu's game the way he really plays. Many of them just look at the stats sheet to give an opinion.
you also have to consider what the other players, like Arenas has had to work with. crappy teammates, crappy coaches, etc... until the past year or two, he never had any good teammates. when you have to score 25-30 a game, just for your team to MAYBE win, as well as an organization that doesnt seem to give a shit about winning a title, as opposed to making money, its easy to become selfish. but if he played on a team with a disciplined coach, a winning mentality, and a winner like Tim Duncan, perhaps Arenas would have become a much better teammate as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by MmP
Sorry jordan is the number one steal followed by Manu... Jordan is a legend
Definitely. There are a lot of players who may never win anything cause of the lack of realiable 2nd and 3rd options. But there are cases and cases, many super talented players seem to be sentenced to be stars of a crappy teams just because they play for stats all their life. Sometimes they add another grat player to the roster but still that shoot-first mentality lead those players to nowhere.
Im not talking about Arenas here or any specific player.
Drazen at 59 has to be considered. When he died he was probably the second best guard in the NBA.
forgive me if this has already been mentioned
but michael redd was a mid 2nd rounder. might not be the greatest draft steal, but its gotta be up there
kobe, if i remember correctly, was a mid 1st rounder and then traded.
for me, i gotta go with two #3 picks: jordan and wilt.
When Wilt was drafted, the draft was territorial - teams had to select someone in their area. In a free draft, I'm sure he would have gone #1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Worlds_finest
IMO, to be a steal he would have had to have been passed over by more than 2 teams.
Manu was passed over by every team once and every team but 2 twice.
Anyone could have had Manu but it was the defending champions using their last pick that got him.
Not any team could have had Jordan. Only 3...
:lmao :lmao :lmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by aaronstampler
oh i see. i didn't know thatQuote:
Originally Posted by SRJ