Spurs won't win playing four on five

I know this place is infested with homers and eternal optimists but I think the last two losses completely and totally illustrate the Spurs' main weakness; Bruce Bowen is not an NBA player anymore, let alone a starter that deserves 35 minutes a game.

The guy can't shoot, can’t dribble, can't make free throws and can no longer defend as evidenced by Michael Redd and Paul Pierce essentially going "balls deep" on him the last two games.

In the playoffs, every game is close and when you have a liability like Bowen on the court in crunch time and your stubborn idiot coach doesn't have the intelligence to replace him; winning will be EXTREMELY difficult.

Other posters here have expressed concern over Bowen and it's high time that Popovich drastically cuts his minutes if the Spurs have a hope of winning this year. The guy is completely lost out there. When you shoot 1 for 9 and the guy you're guarding drops 30 on you; it's real simple- YOU SUCK.

did you have to create a new profile for this? dude had 2 bad plays at the end of the game - the to and the missed shot he had no business taking. if i'm not mistaken, pierce scored 15 when bowen was on the bench.

This is pathetic.

Why make a whole new user name just to post this? I still haven't lost faith in Bruce though... wait until the playoffs to judge him.

Bowen was doing awesome on Pierce in the first half. Pop replaced Bowen early in the third quarter and that's when pierce rattled off 10 or so of his points to get the Celtics up big.

Bowen's shot sucks, but his D is still good.

i disagree..he played great d in my opinion tonight.

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Originally Posted by Why Bowen?!

. When you shoot 1 for 9 and the guy you're guarding drops 30 on you; it's real simple- YOU SUCK.

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Pierce had 17 or so with Bowen on the bench. Did you watch the game?

I guess he stopped selling herb to former Celtics.

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Originally Posted by Why Bowen?!

I know this place is infested with homers and eternal optimists but I think the last two losses completely and totally illustrate the Spurs' main weakness; Bruce Bowen is not an NBA player anymore, let alone a starter that deserves 35 minutes a game.

The guy can't shoot, can’t dribble, can't make free throws and can no longer defend as evidenced by Michael Redd and Paul Pierce essentially going "balls deep" on him the last two games. :lmao :lmao

In the playoffs, every game is close and when you have a liability like Bowen on the court in crunch time and your stubborn idiot coach doesn't have the intelligence to replace him; winning will be EXTREMELY difficult.

Other posters here have expressed concern over Bowen and it's high time that Popovich drastically cuts his minutes if the Spurs have a hope of winning this year. The guy is completely lost out there. When you shoot 1 for 9 and the guy you're guarding drops 30 on you; it's real simple- YOU SUCK.

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it's undeniable that he choked there at the end. He SHOULD have been called for an up&down. had bruce not had the ball promptly stolen the refs might have given a late whistle

bowen is terrible, nice blown layup, can't hit a 3 anymore, every scorer lights his ass up big time, he is a foul magnet, the spurs are out in the 2nd round!

Ugh, Bowen went 1 for 10.

If he doesn't regain his shot fast, I would strongly prefer he just not shoot. It won't be long before opponents just leave him totally open so they can double Tim.

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Originally Posted by Man Mountain

Pierce had 17 or so with Bowen on the bench. Did you watch the game?

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Yeah and what's your excuse for Michael Redd shooting 85% against him Thursday night?

Before I forget, who'd Delonte West drop 23 on? That guy sucks too.

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Originally Posted by Why Bowen?!

Yeah and what's your excuse for Michael Redd shooting 85% against him Thursday night?

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Shooters get hot sometimes.


But the Spurs didn't lose this game all because of Bowen. They shot 1-for-17 as a team from 3 and got killed on the glass in the third quarter.

As always I have no complains on Bruce D

Even when he miss shots I'm OK

But when he tries to drive with a minute to go and lost the ball I can't defend him

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Originally Posted by Spurs Brazil

As always I have no complains on Bruce D

Even when he miss shots I'm OK

But when he tries to drive with a minute to go and lost the ball I can't defend him

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True, but Tim and Tony's travels and Manu's O Foul in the closing minutes didn't help either.

The C's were hitting everything. It was their night

Shot 28 for 75 from the field, 1 for 17 on 3s and were outrebounded by 7. But it's on Bowen.

DAMNIT! Bowen seemed so confident with his offensive game in the first half of the season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by v2freak

The C's were hitting everything. It was their night

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no. they weren't

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Originally Posted by Man Mountain

Shooters get hot sometimes.


But the Spurs didn't lose this game all because of Bowen. They shot 1-for-17 as a team from 3 and got killed on the glass in the third quarter.

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I agree but you have to admit, Bowen is as worse as he's been since his first year on the Spurs. The guy is without a doubt the worst starter on any contending team which brings me to my point; Dallas and Phoenix don't have a Bowen, they don't have a guy that is utterly useless offensively and just average defensively. Pop plays Bowen because Pop takes seven months to figure something out and because he favors veterans.

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Originally Posted by Peter

Before I forget, who'd Delonte West drop 23 on? That guy sucks too.

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was he being guarded by a one dimensional player who's one dimension isn't so great anymore? oh wait...

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Originally Posted by Why Bowen?!

I agree but you have to admit, Bowen is as worse as he's been since his first year on the Spurs. The guy is without a doubt the worst starter on any contending team which brings me to my point; Dallas and Phoenix don't have a Bowen, they don't have a guy that is utterly useless offensively and just average defensively. Pop plays Bowen because Pop takes seven months to figure something out and because he favors veterans.

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Bowen is going thru a horrible offensive stretch - yes.

But he's still very good defensively.

And considering that Finley and Barry are horrible defensively and barely par offensively, I'm not sure who you want to be on the court and play.

If you are saying the Spurs should have traded to get an top notch SF, then they would have given up Parker or Manu to do so.

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Originally Posted by thispego

no. they weren't

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Most of the game, the Celts hit every kind of circus shot. West threw up a couple of hook shots fading behind the basket and Pierce hit extremely tough shots over Bowen

I didn't realize Bob Hill posted here.

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Pop plays Bowen because Pop takes seven months to figure something out and because he favors veterans.

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Then fill me in on why Tony became a starter on a championship team as a rookie then?

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Originally Posted by cherylsteele

Then fill me in on why Tony became a starter on a championship team as a rookie then?

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Because it was between Tony or the athletic trainer....they went with the athlete.

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Originally Posted by Man Mountain

Bowen was doing awesome on Pierce in the first half. Pop replaced Bowen early in the third quarter and that's when pierce rattled off 10 or so of his points to get the Celtics up big.

Bowen's shot sucks, but his D is still good.

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Actually Bowen wasn't doing great on Pierce in the first half. Pierce got several wide open looks and his shot just wasn't falling.

Then you can argue that Bowen did a great job on Pierce in the second half. Pierce hit some amazing shots; Bowen was right in his grill on every one of them. 2 more inches would have blocked a few shots, I'm guessing

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Originally Posted by v2freak

Most of the game, the Celts hit every kind of circus shot. West threw up a couple of hook shots fading behind the basket and Pierce hit extremely tough shots over Bowen

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it was pierce's shots over bowen that won them the game, but other than that, celt were basically hitting open jumpers. Spurs defense SUCKED till the last 2 minutes of the third quarter

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Originally Posted by picnroll

Actually Bowen wasn't doing great on Pierce in the first half. Pierce got several wide open looks and his shot just wasn't falling.

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Heresy

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Originally Posted by Peter

Shot 28 for 75 from the field, 1 for 17 on 3s and were outrebounded by 7. But it's on Bowen.

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:lol

Bowen shouldn't have gotten the ball down the stretch. And usually, he doesn't. But with the Spurs in small ball and Finley in the corner, Bowen was forced to the arch. Another reason to dislike small ball . . .

But yeah, he has to get back to being able to knock down open three pointers. That would solve a lot of his offensive problems.

Defensively, he could have been better the last couple games. But he's still a damn good defender. You can tell he's getting close to the end of his line, but he's not there yet.

1. He miss wide open shots.
2. He drive and loses ball.
3. He pass and ball gets stolen or pass into a crowed man in bad position.
4. He shoots misses.
5. Sometimes he does make a shot.
6. Gets fouled, goes to line and bricks freethrows.

Efficiency hovers around 23 percent.

This why he is wide open, other team wants him to have ball and shoot it. :bang

When do you know it is over? I know that we have talked about Bowen and a lot of people are complaining about his play. I would like to ask a serious question that needs to be discussed.

How hard and how can Pop seriously sit down and evaluate Bowen at this point in his career. He has helped us win 2 championships. When though do you say the time has come for him..

Um...right now, I'm of the mind that Pop is more done than Bowen is.

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Originally Posted by whottt

Um...right now, I'm of the mind that Pop is more done than Bowen is.

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You see this is the problem. Since we have won championships in the past how hard is it for pop to give into our problems.
For all the defense that Bowen brings us without his three point shot falling we have a dead spot.
Remember Game 7 against the pistons we do not win that game without Bowen hitting 2 huge threes.

Pop seems to have 2 main problems. (No it is not small ball, our bigs suck)

1. Respecting Bowen and all he has done for us.
2. Respecting Finly for signing with us last summer.

There should come a time when Pop stops this and starts going with what took us to the top. Anything to succeed.

Yes but if you put aside bruce and fin ( i think he will be ok in the PO) who will be your third perimeter guy? tony manu and then only barry?

Well thats the problem. This should have been taken cared of.
Doesn't Barry and Udrih for Maggette sound like a steal?

Pop's job is to bring the best possible lineup to win year in and year out.

Bowen has been in a decline since 2004-2005
Finley never really clicked.

But even with Bowen and Finley playing that is ok! But DO NOT TELL ME that Bowen is still a 35 minute guy!

When? His time is up!

I mean Bowen averages 2.6 rebounds a game! Thats his lowest in his Spurs career!

In the year of 2007 the age of small ball and long smalls, that rebounding number is absurd!

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Originally Posted by AceProfits

I mean Bowen averages 2.6 rebounds a game! Thats his lowest in his Spurs career!

In the year of 2007 the age of small ball and long smalls, that rebounding number is absurd!

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I don't disagree with the larger point, that the issue of Bowen's replacement should have been addressed sooner, but I'm not convinced that there is a correlation between Bowen's rebounding numbers and the Spurs' performance this season.

In 2002 he averaged 2.7,
In 2003 he averaged 2.9,
In 2004 he averaged 3.1,
In 2005 he averaged 3.5,
and in 2006 he averaged 3.9 RPG.

Is that 1.3 rebounds all that separates the Spurs from some sort of consistent championship caliber play? I don't believe that.

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Originally Posted by AceProfits

When do you know it is over? I know that we have talked about Bowen and a lot of people are complaining about his play. I would like to ask a serious question that needs to be discussed.

How hard and how can Pop seriously sit down and evaluate Bowen at this point in his career. He has helped us win 2 championships. When though do you say the time has come for him..

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Valid point, Pop might use Bruce as a matchup guy, depending on what happens later on with who makes the semis and finals, Bruce matches up better with some teams and is neutralized by those with fast feet and sharp shooting.
Which is Boston, to a tea.

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Originally Posted by Why Bowen?!

I know this place is infested with homers and eternal optimists but I think the last two losses completely and totally illustrate the Spurs' main weakness; Bruce Bowen is not an NBA player anymore, [I]let alone a starter that deserves........

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Bruce is another weapon in the closet.
Aim him judiciously in the right direction and you'll hit your target.
He's gotta go to bed with that ball, 24/7 with the old ball, wearing the gym rat's shoes from '03 when he practiced for perfection.

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Originally Posted by timvp

You can tell he's getting close to the end of his line, but he's not there yet.

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He's pretty much there. Without hitting his outside shot at a reasonable rate his fall off in defense and lack of rebounding will be a significant part of the Spurs '06 - '07 eulogy. Hopefully Pop, with his sense of loyalty, doesn't try to squeeze another year out of Bowen as a starter. Off the bench as a spot player fine but his decline will become exponential.

Micahel Cooper, another great perimeter defender, was done at 33. Name a perimeter defesive specialist that was still there at age 36, the age Bowen will be at the start of the '07- '08 season.

I've been making this argument for months now. Walt Frazier has an interview on the net where he talks about how good teams pick out a weakness and feast on it until the other team (player) counters.

Good smart teams are going to make Bowen beat them. It is a strategy that works against our offense and also helps their defensive play.

On defense, they will position their players away from Bowen, cheating toward the paint to help out against Parker and Manu. Stop these Spurs from driving by clogging the paint and you take away a lot of our offense.

Defensively it helps them because five guys can rebound better than four. It's all part of a strategy that makes Bowen's liabilities the key to beating us. It doesn't always work, but no strategy is 100% effective.

I agree Bowen sucks big-time but his defense is getting a little better but he has become a situational player at best for maybe 16-20 minutes a game but what choice do we have to replace him? it's too late now we are stuck with this dinosaur till next season!

Fucking ingrates.

Bowen is still amazing, even if he has lost a noticable step from his younger self. I want him to retire a Spur, but I doubt putting him on the bench would maximize his effectiveness. You need energy coming off the bench, and Bowen is more of a consistency-type player.

That being said, I hope the Spurs win a title soon so Bowen can retire DRob-style

Bowen is done because he is in a shooting slump ? :lol

Bowen is fine, he is not done. He is just shooting like crap since Janaury.

Bowen 3P% :
November/December : 46/95 (48.4%)
January/February/March : 23/90 (25.6%)

I don't know if it's because of the old new ball, lack of confidence or his back injury but Bruce has still one month to get back his shooting touch.

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Originally Posted by Spurminator

Fucking ingrates.

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:tu

There are two banners hanging in the at&t center due in no small part to Bowen. The Spurs would be last in the league in defense and bannerless if some of you crackheads were running this team.

Fuck you. You don't deserve to be a Spurs fan. Go follow the Bobcats you pieces of shit.

The Spurs lost because they gave up two 30 point quarters and struggled on the boards again.

Bowen is what he is, a strong perimeter defender (not a shut-down defender, that doesn't exist) whose shot can't be counted on.

And he'll be that in the play-offs. How far this team goes depends on the rest of the team playing defense and rebounding and somebody other than Timmy, Manu, and Tony doing a little bit on offense.

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Originally Posted by Peter

:tu

There are two banners hanging in the at&t center due in no small part to Bowen. The Spurs would be last in the league in defense and bannerless if some of you crackheads were running this team.

Fuck you. You don't deserve to be a Spurs fan. Go follow the Bobcats you pieces of shit.

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Since when does saying Bowen may be near done not show respect for past contributions. I guess Robinson and Gervin should play forever too according to people with their panties in a knot.

there's a very significant correlation between spurs' wins and bowen's shooting percentage. yet somehow, the spurs' bad play is all the centers' fault and small ball is the answer.

the "logic" of the pro-small ballers is pretty amazing.

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Originally Posted by Clutch20

Valid point, Pop might use Bruce as a matchup guy, depending on what happens later on with who makes the semis and finals, Bruce matches up better with some teams and is neutralized by those with fast feet and sharp shooting.
Which is Boston, to a tea.

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That is exactly what I am saying. Bowen is in no way a 30 minute player in this league no more. He should be used only in matchups.

By the way....

For all those homers out there (including me), lets all act like we didn't see REDD killing Bowen all night!

I really believe that since Bowen has this reputation (well earned) of being top or if not the best perimeter defender, guys bring there A+ game at him every night and Bowen's age is really starting to show. Sometimes it is better to just a throw regular defender like a "Maggette" at a Redd. Then they don't come into the game knowing the media and everybody is watching to see if Bowen is going to shut him down..

Bowen is not the reason Spurs are losing. He may be a small part of it...but Elson/Oberto and their soft-ass game, Finley/Barry and their sorry-ass shooting, and Pop's crappy rotations/stubborness not to play Bonner/Butler/Ely are as much to blame...

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Originally Posted by picnroll

Since when does saying Bowen may be near done not show respect for past contributions. I guess Robinson and Gervin should play forever too according to people with their panties in a knot.

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Then the season's over because this team isn't going to win a title based on outrunning the Mavs or Suns. Figure it out.

spurs won't win playing 5 on 5 either if their big men can't rebound for shit, and their supposed 3 point shooters keep firing up bricks

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Originally Posted by Peter

:tu

There are two banners hanging in the at&t center due in no small part to Bowen. The Spurs would be last in the league in defense and bannerless if some of you crackheads were running this team.

Fuck you. You don't deserve to be a Spurs fan. Go follow the Bobcats you pieces of shit.

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Thats messed up dog. I wasnt to happy about his play either but i wouldnt go as far as too say he sucks. looking back it wouldve been nice if he hit those open shots but other players also missed open shots.

You dont deserve to be a Spurs fan is bullshit wtf is that about. they're complaining probably cuz they love or care a lot.
Heres 2 bruce scoring 30 next game :drunk

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Originally Posted by itzsoweezee

there's a very significant correlation between spurs' wins and bowen's shooting percentage. yet somehow, the spurs' bad play is all the centers' fault and small ball is the answer.

the "logic" of the pro-small ballers is pretty amazing.

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I'm not trying to be snarky and I'm not a fan of smallball either, but could you please produce this correlation?

I'm not even a spur fan and I cringe when he gets the ball. The guy is one of the biggest offensive liabilities i've ever seen. At least before he had one spot he could shoot from, the corner, but now he can't even do that. And you better hope to God he doesn't try to put it on the floor because that'll be an automatic turnover.

For the first few months of THIS season, Bowen was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. Since January, I understand he has sucked, but I don't think your shot just permanently goes dead in that small time frame.

People act like he's never going to regain his shooting touch again.

I agree that I don't want to see him as a primary ball handler like we did on occassion yesterday. But I think to assume that his 3 point shot will never return when he was on fire in November/December - just four months ago - is crazy.

This argument fits right into the Bowen is overrated topic.

Dude, I can't even watch a Spurs game anymore... They won 13 straight against sorry ass teams and then drop 2 games to Eastern lottery teams. :lmao

I didn't see either game.:(

Just by looking at the Stats, Bowen is virtually useless. Oh and I did see Pierce's balls rubbing his face dropping the dagger on ESPN this morning...

Pitiful.

I think if we have an early exit in the PO's again the roster will be completely retooled with only a few players from this years roster (excluding the big 3). Lets hope the FO doesn't mess it up too bad.

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Originally Posted by 1Parker1

Bowen is not the reason Spurs are losing.

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He did miss wide open three when the Spurs played the Mavs that may have sent it into OT.(There were 4 seconds left)

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Originally Posted by Clutch20

Bruce is another weapon in the closet.
Aim him judiciously in the right direction and you'll hit your target.
He's gotta go to bed with that ball, 24/7 with the old ball, wearing the gym rat's shoes from '03 when he practiced for perfection.

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Imagine if Manu took Bruce aside and convinced him to JOIN him on the bench. What a bench, 2 sharp defensive players loaded with game knowledge making the opposition change their game whenever Pop places them into the game.

Bowen isn't a pure shooter and will never be a pure shooter. For Bowen to be succesfull he needs to be a confident shooter who is able to find comfortable positions on the floor from which to do his thing.

Thats the main problem. He's not in the least comfortable, and he hasn't been comfortable in months. Why would anyone expect him to recover that comfort?

Bowen is not the kind of shooter that can simply keep firing and get out of a slump. Bowen is the kind of shooter who will do great when in a comfort zone, and horribly when out of it. You can see it in everything he does on the offensive side of the court. He can't handle the ball very well, he's horrible on breaks, and now he's not even hitting the outside jumper.

Bruce brings very specific talents to this team, and I'm not saying his defense has fallen off. But the fact is that NBA basketball is a game where specialists aren't intergral parts of a rotation and instead are spot minute players. If you leave such a void in the game that your contributions on one side of the court are completely negated by your deficiencies on another side, then you shouldn't be given a large amount of time.

Bowen may be at the point where his deficencies detract more than he adds with his defense.

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

For the first few months of THIS season, Bowen was one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. Since January, I understand he has sucked, but I don't think your shot just permanently goes dead in that small time frame.

People act like he's never going to regain his shooting touch again.

I agree that I don't want to see him as a primary ball handler like we did on occassion yesterday. But I think to assume that his 3 point shot will never return when he was on fire in November/December - just four months ago - is crazy.

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...or maybe his back problems are worse than advertised?

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Originally Posted by SequSpur

This argument fits right into the Bowen is overrated topic.

Dude, I can't even watch a Spurs game anymore... They won 13 straight against sorry ass teams and then drop 2 games to Eastern lottery teams. :lmao

I didn't see either game.:(

Just by looking at the Stats, Bowen is virtually useless. Oh and I did see Pierce's balls rubbing his face dropping the dagger on ESPN this morning...

Pitiful.

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:lol

I don't know why newcomers are bothered by Sequ's posts. He speaks the truth in most of his posts!

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Originally Posted by MannyIsGod

Bowen may be at the point where his deficencies detract more than he adds with his defense.

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Bingo! It's been that way for awhile, not just this year. The Spurs would be better off with someone who could drop a few buckets and get some got damn rebounds. Bowen is useless in both departments...

Also one of the reasons why Parker doesn't get assists...

Replace Bowen with Bonner in the starting line-up. So what if Bowen holds someone to 24 who might get 30 against someone else, if he gives up 5 OR, misses key shots, can't make a lay-up and stops the offense every time he gets the ball. Bonner will need help on D for sure, but he will hustle his ass off, hit the boards hard, make his shots and will bounce a few bodies around.

Bonner... :lmao

:lmao

:cry

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Originally Posted by SequSpur

Bonner... :lmao

:lmao

:cry

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Yep, sad when I would find myself hoping for the Red Rocket to come on the floor in place of Bowen. But, that is where we are.

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Originally Posted by SRJ

I'm not trying to be snarky and I'm not a fan of smallball either, but could you please produce this correlation?

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i haven't compared the stats for the year, that would take too long. but these are the stats from the january wins/losses i posted a while back: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/show...31#post1434431

Bowen FGM/FGA in January wins
4/7
5/6
3/5
3/8
2/4
4/7
3/7
2/8
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26/52 (50%)
(6.5 shots/gm)


Bowen FGM/FGA in January losses
0/6
0/6
2/6
4/10
2/9
1/5
2/6
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11/39 (28%)
(5.6 shots/gm)