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SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...tion=si_latest
Waiting Game
Every player wants to be a starter -- no one really wants to be known as a great sixth man. But with a super sixth, like Dallas's Jerry Stackhouse, sparking each of the league's top three teams, the role of top sub has been revitalized
Posted: Tuesday March 20, 2007 8:54AM; Updated: Tuesday March 20, 2007 8:54AM
Even though he doesn't start, Stackhouse (42) can still fill it up, as the Suns found out.
Greg Nelson/SI
Once a prime-time player, a slashing swingman who averaged 29.8 points for the Detroit Pistons six seasons ago, Jerry Stackhouse is now a bystander when the Dallas Mavericks announce their lineup to pyrotechnics and ear-splitting noise at American Airlines Center. His sweats on, he rolls his shoulders and jogs in place as the starters' names are called, knowing he won't be needed until midway through the first quarter, at the earliest. "Sometimes over on the bench you stiffen up a little bit when you don't get in right away," says Stackhouse. "But it's just something to deal with."
And he is dealing with it well. Stackhouse is among the favorites to win the Sixth Man Award, an honor with which, like most sixth men, he would rather not be favored. "I can't speak for everyone," says Stackhouse, who was averaging 11.5 points at week's end and erupted for a team-high 33 in the Mavs' 129-127 double-overtime loss to the Phoenix Suns on March 14, "but I'd rather be starting."
Stackhouse finds himself sitting out the intros because the value of the sixth man, which had bottomed out in recent years, is on the rise again. For the last seven weeks Spurs coach Gregg Popovich has been bringing Manu Ginóbili, arguably San Antonio's best player after Tim Duncan, off the bench. (Ginóbili was averaging 18.1 points in that span, compared with 16.9 overall.) "A lot of guys who have won the award have been [de facto] starters," says Ginóbili's teammate Brent Barry, one of two players (along with Michael Finley) who filled the supersub role when Ginóbili was in the opening lineup. "They're playing starter minutes, 36 or 37, and the starting guy is playing 14."
To be eligible for the Sixth Man Award, a player simply must "come off the bench in more games than he starts." By the end of the season that standard may apply to Ginóbili. For now, Stackhouse's main competition is Leandro Barbosa, perhaps the quickest player in the league. The Suns' fourth-year combo guard from Brazil was averaging 17.4 points and 4.2 assists at week's end, and he led Phoenix in scoring in three straight wins earlier this month. In other words, the three best teams in the West -- and in the league -- have superior sixth men.
So do two of the top clubs in the East. Anderson Varejăo, a 6'10" forward, causes a sort of constructive chaos when he enters the fray for the Cleveland Cavaliers. And the surprising Toronto Raptors have been bolstered by 7-foot sharpshooter Andrea Bargnani, the top pick in the 2006 draft, who was averaging 11.5 points. But a winning atmosphere is not necessary for a productive sixth man; even on teams just scrapping to make the playoffs, there can be found ready, willing and able firemen. "I have only one thought when I go in there, and that's to play harder than anybody else," says the New York Knicks' 6'9" forward David Lee, who is averaging a double double -- 11.2 points and 10.7 rebounds -- on the season (12 starts) but has not played since developing a stress reaction in his right leg on Feb. 23. "I have to. They've been going at it for a while, and I'm trying to catch up."
When healthy, Lee, an overcaffeinated version of Varejăo, will grab rebounds, follow missed shots, dive for loose balls and play ferocious interior defense. (Merely in his kinetic energy he's a contrast to Knicks center Eddy Curry, whose D runs the gamut from indolent to indifferent.) Lee fulfills the classic role of a sixth man: to turn up the heat on the court and in the building. The Madison Square Garden fans begin cheering for him as soon as he rises from the bench, and by the time he reaches the scorer's table they're going nuts. "I don't even have to look up from my computer," says Howard Beck, who covers the team for The New York Times, "because I know it's for David."
In all likelihood, and for a variety of reasons (as we'll see), none of these players are on a course to become a long-term sixth man in the tradition established by the Boston Celtics. The most famous Shamrock of the pine is 6'5" swingman John Havlicek, who was a sixth man at the start of his 16-year Hall of Fame career, which began in 1962. But he was not the Celtics' first. That honor belonged to Frank Ramsey, a 6'3" swingman whom coach Red Auerbach used in the role from the mid-1950s until Havlicek's arrival. "It just kind of evolved," says Ramsey, 75, from his home in Madisonville, Ky. "I don't even remember anyone talking about it until maybe my third year. 'Hey, you're a great sixth man,' I'd hear. 'O.K.,' I'd say, 'I'm a sixth man.'"
Ramsey was a terrific offensive player -- he averaged 13.4 points over his nine-year career and was elected to the Hall of Fame -- but he couldn't beat out Bob Cousy or Bill Sharman at guard, or Tommy Heinsohn at forward. He might have been a better all-around player than Boston's other starting forward, Jim Loscutoff, but Auerbach liked Loscy's size, not to mention his willingness to inflict pain and suffering on opponents.
Because Heinsohn got gassed easily -- he was a heavy smoker -- Ramsey usually made his entrance in the first quarter. And since he came in for a player known as Tommy Gun, Ramsey knew he had to put points on the board. "Maybe it was because I was playing against other reserves, but it did seem like I was open a lot," says Ramsey. "Of course, the way we ran and Bill [Russell] rebounded, most of us were open a lot."
Havlicek, Boston's alltime leading scorer, was the NBA's top reserve through the 1960s, but the role remained fairly uncommon for another decade. The league presented its first Sixth Man Award in '83, to Philadelphia 76ers forward Bobby Jones. Marc Iavaroni, now a Suns assistant coach, had a serviceable seven-year career as a power forward, but he is remembered only for being a ceremonial starter on a championship team. "Nobody ever had to tell me that Bobby was better than me," says Iavaroni. "I knew it myself."
The list of All-Star-caliber players who won the Sixth Man Award continued: Boston big men Kevin McHale and Bill Walton, Milwaukee Bucks swingman Ricky Pierce (the only winner to lead a team in scoring, with 23.0 points per game in 1989-90), Phoenix forward Eddie Johnson, Indiana Pacers forward Detlef Schrempf and Chicago Bulls forward Toni Kukoc. The position was so capably filled that any number of outstanding subs never won the award: Vinnie Johnson, nicknamed the Microwave because he heated up so fast for the championship Detroit Pistons teams of '89 and '90; Michael Cooper, a three-point specialist and defensive ace on three Los Angeles Lakers title teams; and Thurl Bailey, an outstanding all-around forward who came off the bench for the Utah Jazz for six seasons beginning in 1985-86.
Some of those names belie a common perception about the role: that it is the province of out-on-the-floor players who handle the ball and can get their own shots quickly and often. That's what Ramsey and Havlicek did, though Havlicek was also a good defender. And both Vinnie and Eddie Johnson as well as Pierce fit that mold, as do Stackhouse, Barbosa and Ginóbili. But McHale was an inside scorer and Walton (by the 1985-86 season) was mostly an inside distributor. Jones was an all-arounder, as were Schrempf and Kukoc.
"What you have to provide in the role," says Cooper, "is something unique. The things that Havlicek did were the things that I tried to do, whether it was diving for a loose ball, rebounding, making an assist or scoring -- something that wasn't happening before I got on the floor."
If today's teams do discover a catalyst off the bench, it's usually by accident. There has been no repeat Sixth Man Award winner since Schrempf earned his second in 1992, and over the last six years only two names -- guards Bobby Jackson and Earl Boykins -- have appeared more than twice in the top 10 of the voting. When the Knicks' season began, for example, coach Isiah Thomas was almost certain that guard Jamal Crawford would be his top reserve. "Heck, it's hard enough figuring out what your starting lineup is going to be," says Suns coach Mike D'Antoni. "I wasn't nearly smart enough to know that LB [Barbosa] would be a good sixth man. It just happened."
Streak-shooting Bulls guard Ben Gordon won the Sixth Man Award as a rookie in 2005 and got off to a quick start as Chicago's off-the-bench spark at the beginning of this season, leading the team in scoring. But coach Scott Skiles, needing more production early in games, inserted Gordon into the starting lineup in January. While the move has helped the Bulls surge in the standings, Skiles would have preferred to keep Gordon on ice. "[Coach] Don Nelson, my rookie year [with the Bucks], often said he felt naked without Ricky Pierce on the bench," says Skiles. "I understand that feeling."
Indeed, there are reasons that a good sixth man is hard to find. "Too many guys think they're better than the role," says Minnesota Timberwolves vice president of basketball operations McHale, who won the next two awards after Jones's. "All their agents are saying, 'Hey, my guy should start,' and their guy believes it." Players also tend not to be as versatile as some of the old-timers, and so it's not as easy to "mix and match combinations," as Miami Heat assistant Bob McAdoo, a sometime sixth man with the Lakers in the early '80s, puts it.
Then, too, expansion has diluted the talent pool. Most teams are structured to pay (or overpay) two superstars and slot in everyone else behind them. Coaches tend to build around those two players, maybe three, and not think so much about a starting five and a hot-handed sub. When Ramsey first came off the bench for the Celtics, there were eight teams in the league. He eyed the court and saw five guys whose numbers would eventually be hanging from the Boston Garden rafters. "I believed I was good enough to start," says Ramsey, "but when I looked who was in front of me, how could I complain?"
By contrast, when Memphis Grizzlies swingman Mike Miller, last season's Sixth Man winner, took a look from the bench he saw Pau Gasol and, well, Lorenzen Wright, Shane Battier, Eddie Jones and Chucky Atkins. Former coach Mike Fratello talked Miller into the role -- and Miller, an offensive-minded type, performed it well -- but he never thought for a minute that he wasn't the second-best player on the team, behind Gasol. "Mike told me from the beginning that I'd be finishing most games even if I wouldn't be starting them," says Miller, who has started all but one game this year, "and that helped me accept the role." (Virtually every sixth man, by the way, will find a way to mention that he finishes games.) :lol
Even Stackhouse, coming off the pine for the league's best team, does not see himself as a reserve. "I still have goals I want to achieve, and that's why it's imperative to try to win [a title] right now," says Stackhouse, who is averaging -- whaddya know? -- the sixth-most minutes on the team. "Then I can really assess where I want to go forward. There's no doubt in my mind I could still play starter's minutes and help the team."
In truth, the desire of sixth men to be main men is consistent throughout the NBA's history. Even Cooper admits, "Being a sixth man made my career, but I would've preferred to start." This may be the season, however, in which that perception changes, particularly if a team with a strong one (like Dallas or Phoenix) wins the championship. And Ginóbili is really enhancing the idea of a super fireman. In a win over the Atlanta Hawks on Feb. 21 he scored 24 straight points, and two weeks ago the southpaw known for his corkscrew shots and his willingness to give up his body was named Western Conference player of the week. Ginóbili believes, in fact, that his minutes are more consistent as a sixth man.
Lee, though, is not at that point. He enjoys the idea that he can turn on a crowd and turn on a team just by rising from his seat -- for now. "The other day a guy said to me, 'So, you must be ready to do this for your whole career,'" says Lee, "and I said, 'Whoa, dude, let's hold up on that.'"
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Stackhouse is not the reason why the Mavs have the best record (that would be Dirk, Howard, Terry, and Harris before him) and he is a punk and the biggest choker of all.
IMHO, the only real contenders for Sixth Man are Manu and Barbosa, and right now Manu is in 2nd place but only because he hasn't been doing it all season like Barbosa. But if he keeps the Spurs finishing the reg season strongly, he should overtake Barbosa, esp if the Spurs steal the #2 spot from the Suns.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
that's just plain crazy talk. Stack is every bit as valuable to those Mavs as Manu and Barbosa are to their respective teams.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Stackhouse is not the reason why the Mavs have the best record (that would be Dirk, Howard, Terry, and Harris before him) and he is a punk and the biggest choker of all.
you must be a total moron. you clearly dont know what the fuck you are talking about.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyParkerSux
that's just plain crazy talk. Stack is every bit as valuable to those Mavs as Manu and Barbosa are to their respective teams.
Agreed. I can't stand all the hate people have for stack, just because of his past. But he is a VERY important part of the Mavs. Many times, he is IMO the second most important part of the Mavericks. his toughness, leadership, and aggression has saved our asses so many times, its ridiculous.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
anyone who watched that Mavs/Suns game (or even the highlights) would know how valuable Stackhouse is to Dallas. He can fill up th stat sheet at any given time....
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Stack is a punk. There is a reason why he has been dumped by multiple teams and never won a title. He is the anti-clutch.
I'd take Barbosa and Manu over Stack any day.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Stack is a punk. There is a reason why he has been dumped by multiple teams and never won a title. He is the anti-clutch.
I'd take Barbosa and Manu over Stack any day.
That reason would be that he has been on teams that were not good enough to win a ring. Which team should he have helped to a title? Sixers..., Pistons..., Wizards...? None of those teams were even remotely close. He really has changed his game up since having been with the Mavs. He has become an excellent passer, plays good D, and brings toughness to that Mavs team.
What exactly makes him so "anti-clutch"?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Stack is a punk. There is a reason why he has been dumped by multiple teams and never won a title. He is the anti-clutch.
I'd take Barbosa and Manu over Stack any day.
Stack has been the ultimate teammate and leader along with being very clutch for the Mavs. That's all that really matters to the Mavs (and me).
If he was such a punk in Detroit why does Joe Dumars (the guy who traded him for Rip Hamilton-good trade) still call him to talk? Dumars even called him prior to the finals to wish him luck last year.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Barbosa cant be clutch to save his life. Id take Manu over either two.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyParkerSux
That reason would be that he has been on teams that were not good enough to win a ring. Which team should he have helped to a title? Sixers..., Pistons..., Wizards...? None of those teams were even remotely close. He really has changed his game up since having been with the Mavs. He has become an excellent passer, plays good D, and brings toughness to that Mavs team.
What exactly makes him so "anti-clutch"?
Um, Pistons went on to win a title without him.
He doesn't know how to play D without flagrantly fouling people constantly.
He disappears when it matters most.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Um, Pistons went on to win a title without him.
He doesn't know how to play D without flagrantly fouling people constantly.
He disappears when it matters most.
Maybe you should watch some Mav games or maybe you should just stick with what you know (Spurs) cuz the more you post about Stack the more your ignorance shows.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Um, Pistons went on to win a title without him.
He doesn't know how to play D without flagrantly fouling people constantly.
He disappears when it matters most.
:dizzy
clueless... clearly doesnt know what he/she is talking about...
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabber
Maybe you should watch some Mav games or maybe you should just stick with what you know (Spurs) cuz the more you post about Stack the more your ignorance shows.
Make a claim that someone is ignorant, you have to explain the flaw in their logic. "Poopyhead" is a child's cop-out for having a real opinion with facts to back it up. Saying someone is ignorant is just a more official-sounding form of that same insult. Both make the offender (you) immediately lose all credibility in any argument.
If you want to speak loudly, make sure you have something to say.
It's "because," as well. The "z" does not add flair. It makes you sound like a poopy head. A child.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Since was was being clutch a necessity for a 6th man? It's nice, but the stars in the starting line-up are the ones who need to be clutch or not. Manu is a de facto starter. I think Leandro Barbosa is the most deserving for the 6th man award.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Okay seriously, check your facts, there never has been an accent on Ginobili. Ginóbili? :wtf?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samr
Make a claim that someone is ignorant, you have to explain the flaw in their logic. "Poopyhead" is a child's cop-out for having a real opinion with facts to back it up. Saying someone is ignorant is just a more official-sounding form of that same insult. Both make the offender (you) immediately lose all credibility in any argument.
If you want to speak loudly, make sure you have something to say.
It's "because," as well. The "z" does not add flair. It makes you sound like a poopy head. A child.
I agree, but I already had explained why I thought the poster was wrong about Stack in a prior post. This was the 2nd or 3rd exchange in the argument.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Um, Pistons went on to win a title without him.
He doesn't know how to play D without flagrantly fouling people constantly.
He disappears when it matters most.
Um, Pistons were a different team by then, 3 or 4 years later.....
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
The Brazilian BLURR
Is The 6th Man of the year!!!
http://img.epochtimes.com/i6/605090455301482--ss.jpg
FUCK MANU!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabber
I agree, but I already had explained why I thought the poster was wrong about Stack in a prior post. This was the 2nd or 3rd exchange in the argument.
So if you think someone isn't being logical, just walk away. No sense in deigning them with a response. Better to stay silent at the end and let your argument defend itself, than call names at the end and shoot a hole through your credibility.
There's a saying that goes "better to remain silent and be assumed an idiot, than to open your mouth and relieve all doubt." If someone disagrees with you, that is fine. But let them disagree with you on the subject. First one to take it beyond that is the first one to lose.
[this message brought to you by Bored At College]
GO SPURS.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samr
So if you think someone isn't being logical, just walk away. No sense in deigning them with a response. Better to stay silent at the end and let your argument defend itself, than call names at the end and shoot a hole through your credibility.
There's a saying that goes "better to remain silent and be assumed an idiot, than to open your mouth and relieve all doubt." If someone disagrees with you, that is fine. But let them disagree with you on the subject. First one to take it beyond that is the first one to lose.
[this message brought to you by Bored At College]
GO SPURS.
I don't recall calling anyone a name. I believe I said that poster (whoever it was) was showing their "ignorance" about a subject matter. All that is saying is that they don't understand or know what they're talking about. Trust me, that's about as harsh as I get but if I offended you with that, I apologize. I don't like all the name calling on here so I avoid that. You can read all of my posts in case you don't believe me. I can't believe out of all the name calling and crap that's thrown around on this board, you're calling me out for that :lol
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
:dizzy
clueless... clearly doesnt know what he/she is talking about...
You got to stop coming at people so hard that disagree with you man, its pretty insulting some of the stuff you say. I know that she is wrong, Stack is a HUGE part of that Mav team, but dont call her stupid, just explain why she is wrong. Now as far as the the topic, I know he wont win it, but I really like Varejao, he brings such energy to that team that helps make them what they are defensively, Manu in a bigs body. It definately is between him and Stack, but thats only for second. I dont see anyway that Manu doesnt win this award, he is so much more important to our team than the other two guys. If you took Stack or Anderson away from their teams, they could survive, the Spurs would absolutely fall apart without Manu. I also like Milsap from Utah, he doesnt have great stats, but he brings great hustle and d to that team
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Stackhouse helped the Spurs on their championship run in 2005. He busted-up Joe Johnson's face from behind on a layup in their playoff series. The Suns moved on but Johnson was not as effective and Bowen was able to focus on shutting down Marion.
http://www.nba.com/media/suns/joe_johnson_050511.jpg
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Shit, I forgot he was the reason Joe Johnson had the ugliest black eye Ive ever seen, yea, the Suns were damn good that year
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
ignorant is not an insult. it simply means lack of knowledge. we are all ignorant on a variety of subjects, this topic being one of those for Supergirl....
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyParkerSux
ignorant is not an insult. it simply means lack of knowledge. we are all ignorant on a variety of subjects, this topic being one of those for Supergirl....
Yea, but calling someone ignorant is different than calling them a moron, or are you to ignorant to see the difference?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
Yea, but calling someone ignorant is different than calling them a moron, or are you to ignorant to see the difference?
yes, that is my point. being called ignorant IS completely different than being called a moron. Moron is an insult with malicious intent, ignorant is simply a lack of knowledge of a particular subject....
:lol Ignorance seems to be rampant on this thread, because you just proved my point for me, ignorantly I might add.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
Yea, but calling someone ignorant is different than calling them a moron, or are you to ignorant to see the difference?
Also if you were reading the posts correctly, you would see that I was not responding to whatever you and Stretch had going on.....
more ignorance?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
How is me trying to tell stretch to stop calling people names ignorant? How is me pointing out that ignorance and name calling are different things being ignorant? I think you just want to sound smart so badly that you just like throwing that word around. Mission accomplished chief, you must be a scholar. And by the way, if Supergirl wants to think that Stack sucks and doesnt help the team, thats her opinion and she is entilted to it. Its not any worse than a Laker noob with Tonyparkersucks as his name. Damn, you ignant
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
How is me trying to tell stretch to stop calling people names ignorant? How is me pointing out that ignorance and name calling are different things being ignorant? I think you just want to sound smart so badly that you just like throwing that word around. Mission accomplished chief, you must be a geniuos. And by the way, if Spurswoman wants to think that Stack sucks and doesnt help the team, thats her opinion and she is entilted to it. Its not any worse than a Laker noob with Tonyparkersucks as his name. Damn, you ignant
Again, ignorance prevails!!!
read my post, genius. you might need to learn how to read first (and spell), but I have already stated that I was not responding to your weak ass posts. it was directed at someone else.
As for Supergirl, of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that doesn't mean that they are correct.
keep typing though, you are providing an excellent example of ignorance for everyone on the board. :lol
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
FYI: I never said Stackhouse wasn't an important part of the Mavs. I agree he is.
But I don't think he's THAT important - I don't think he's irreplaceable - and therefore I don't think he's the Sixth Man of the Year. The Mavs are a deep team - which is why the main reason they are so dangerous - and if Stackhouse goes down, as he has at times, they have any number of guys who can fill in just as well, perhaps even better. I also happen to think he's a punk, and don't like they way he plays the game (I have similar feelings about Kenyon Martin, and a few other players)
I would argue that without Barbosa and Manu, the Suns and the Spurs are as lost and will not win a championship. That is why they are better candidates for sixth men of the year. Even though Duncan and Nash are clearly the center of the respective franchises, both the Spurs and the Suns rely on Barbosa and Ginobili for energy and hustle in their offense, particularly while their starting PGs are resting...
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Stackhouse is not the reason why the Mavs have the best record (that would be Dirk, Howard, Terry, and Harris before him) and he is a punk and the biggest choker of all.
IMHO, the only real contenders for Sixth Man are Manu and Barbosa, and right now Manu is in 2nd place but only because he hasn't been doing it all season like Barbosa. But if he keeps the Spurs finishing the reg season strongly, he should overtake Barbosa, esp if the Spurs steal the #2 spot from the Suns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Stack is a punk. There is a reason why he has been dumped by multiple teams and never won a title. He is the anti-clutch.
I'd take Barbosa and Manu over Stack any day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Um, Pistons went on to win a title without him.
He doesn't know how to play D without flagrantly fouling people constantly.
He disappears when it matters most.
SpursDynasty / JeffDrums22....is that you??? :lol :lol :lol
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
FYI: I never said Stackhouse wasn't an important part of the Mavs. I agree he is.
But I don't think he's THAT important - I don't think he's irreplaceable - and therefore I don't think he's the Sixth Man of the Year. The Mavs are a deep team - which is why the main reason they are so dangerous - and if Stackhouse goes down, as he has at times, they have any number of guys who can fill in just as well, perhaps even better. I also happen to think he's a punk, and don't like they way he plays the game (I have similar feelings about Kenyon Martin, and a few other players)
I would argue that without Barbosa and Manu, the Suns and the Spurs are as lost and will not win a championship. That is why they are better candidates for sixth men of the year. Even though Duncan and Nash are clearly the center of the respective franchises, both the Spurs and the Suns rely on Barbosa and Ginobili for energy and hustle in their offense, particularly while their starting PGs are resting...
nice post.
explains alot more than "Stack sux balls, ect.,ect.,ect..."
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyParkerSux
Also if you were reading the posts correctly, you would see that I was not responding to whatever you and Stretch had going on.....
more ignorance?
I read it correctly, and at the end of it you called her out again, so maybe the timing was bad coming after my post, but that is what it seemed like to me, like yall were picking on her. So you win dude, keep putting your little smiley face on everything like what you are saying is actually funny, correct my spelling , whatever.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
I read it correctly, and at the end of it you called her out again, so maybe the timing was bad coming after my post, but that is what it seemed like to me, like yall were picking on her. So you win dude, keep putting your little smiley face on everything like what you are saying is actually funny, correct my spelling , whatever.
:toast
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
How is me trying to tell stretch to stop calling people names ignorant? How is me pointing out that ignorance and name calling are different things being ignorant? I think you just want to sound smart so badly that you just like throwing that word around. Mission accomplished chief, you must be a scholar. And by the way, if Spurswoman wants to think that Stack sucks and doesnt help the team, thats her opinion and she is entilted to it. Its not any worse than a Laker noob with Tonyparkersucks as his name. Damn, you ignant
I don't really have an opinion on Stack one way or the other. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant, just that I don't really care. :lol
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpursWoman
I don't really have an opinion on Stack one way or the other. It doesn't mean I'm ignorant, just that I don't really care. :lol
There, fixed
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
You got to stop coming at people so hard that disagree with you man, its pretty insulting some of the stuff you say. I know that she is wrong, Stack is a HUGE part of that Mav team, but dont call her stupid, just explain why she is wrong. Now as far as the the topic, I know he wont win it, but I really like Varejao, he brings such energy to that team that helps make them what they are defensively, Manu in a bigs body. It definately is between him and Stack, but thats only for second. I dont see anyway that Manu doesnt win this award, he is so much more important to our team than the other two guys. If you took Stack or Anderson away from their teams, they could survive, the Spurs would absolutely fall apart without Manu. I also like Milsap from Utah, he doesnt have great stats, but he brings great hustle and d to that team
saying completely incorrect things and insulting a player isnt any different. and i didnt say she was stupid. i said she was clueless. and yes, i called her a moron, but not in a malicious way. its the same way many spurs fans insult people here... but in a joking manner. or how about SeguSpur telling everyone to blow him?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
saying completely incorrect things and insulting a player isnt any different. and i didnt say she was stupid. i said she was clueless.
You called her a moron, which to me is the same thing, I think you make some good posts, but you do name call a bit to much for my taste, but to each their own I guess
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
You called her a moron, which to me is the same thing, I think you make some good posts, but you do name call a bit to much for my taste, but to each their own I guess
sorry, i made an edit just before you posted this to expand on basically what you just said.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Sequspur is who he is, I guess if you want to be like him go for it, most people ignore the slander that comes from his post. If you want to talk shit and call people names (altough I do realize that there are people on this board that say way worse things than moron), go ahead. I dont say shit about those other posters because they dont bring anything to the table other than their insults. You, on the other hand do make good points, and the more points you make and less name calling, to me at least , makes your posts more solid. But, I mean, who cares what I think, I talk shit from time to time, but have tried to cut down on it.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
when i use insults, its really in a joking way. unless its directed at idiots like Spursdynasty, Spursreport, or Nashfan. those guys are total and complete idiots. but i will try to use less insults against good posters that actually contribute.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
when i use insults, its really in a joking way. unless its directed at idiots like Spursdynasty, Spursreport, or Nashfan. those guys are total and complete idiots. but i will try to use less insults against good posters that actually contribute.
You say whatever you want about those posters though, they make us all dumber for reading anything they right
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody Paige
Here's a media insider secret - the Sixth Man Of The Year award will go to the player that provides the best production off the bench for his/her team. You can't be a regular starter on the team to win the award, so look for Nash and Nowitzki to be disqualified from this race. More insider info to come...
Your killing me Woody, Jesus :lol
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Weird thread with all the ignorant talk. (I still don't understand how SpursWoman got called out when it was SuperGirl that was posting) :wtf
Anyway back to the topic, I didn't even consider Stack in the running, but I guess he's worthy.
6th Man of the Year talk around the league has been around Barbosa and Lee all year.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Weird thread with all the ignorant talk. (I still don't understand how SpursWoman got called out when it was SuperGirl that was posting) :wtf
Anyway back to the topic, I didn't even consider Stack in the running, but I guess he's worthy.
6th Man of the Year talk around the league has been around Barbosa and Lee all year.
Yea, that was my fault, wasnt paying attention
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Weird thread with all the ignorant talk. (I still don't understand how SpursWoman got called out when it was SuperGirl that was posting) :wtf
Anyway back to the topic, I didn't even consider Stack in the running, but I guess he's worthy.
6th Man of the Year talk around the league has been around Barbosa and Lee all year.
Yeah, I've heard Lee being thrown around as a possibilty too, but it would seem weird to give it to someone who plays on a team that's not even about .500. I mean, yes, they're going to the playoffs, which is bad enough, but come on. Seems like it should go to the best player off the bench for a team with a winning record.
I think it's Barbosa's to lose. But I think Manu is equally deserving.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
It wouldnt piss me off or anything if Manu didnt get it, Barbosa is a stud. But with that said, Manu has carried us for many, many games, and if he keeps playing the way he has been playing (last couple games not includud), he will have a good shot
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
I think Manu's downfall in consideration for this award may be that most people still think of him as a starter. I'd guess that if you ask most people around basketball to quickly answer the question, "Who's the Spurs starting backcourt?" People will immediately say Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.
It's weird, because he's come off the bench for so long now, but most people think of him as a starter.
Also, I think he may go back into the starting lineup soon, which would blow his eligibility for the award.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
I think Manu's downfall in consideration for this award may be that most people still think of him as a starter. I'd guess that if you ask most people around basketball to quickly answer the question, "Who's the Spurs starting backcourt?" People will immediately say Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili.
It's weird, because he's come off the bench for so long now, but most people think of him as a starter.
Also, I think he may go back into the starting lineup soon, which would blow his eligibility for the award.
You have to play less than half the season right? Thats why Gordan isnt in this conversation? Dont you think though, if Manu was to stay off the bench, that he is by far the most important sub to his team in the whole league?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Also, I think he may go back into the starting lineup soon, which would blow his eligibility for the award.
Well, as of right now he is still not eligible for the award.
Games Started - 36
Games Off Bench - 23
But I think this is Barbosa's award this year.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
You have to play less than half the season right? Thats why Gordan isnt in this conversation? Dont you think though, if Manu was to stay off the bench, that he is by far the most important sub to his team in the whole league?
What would make you think that
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
You have to play less than half the season right? Thats why Gordan isnt in this conversation? Dont you think though, if Manu was to stay off the bench, that he is by far the most important sub to his team in the whole league?
I believe you have to come off the bench for at least one more game than you started. Right now Manu has started 36 and come off the bench for 23. The Spurs have 18 games left. So if my calculations are right, he would need to come off the bench for at least 16 of them.
Ben Gordon has started six more games than he's come off the bench and he's pretty solidified as a starter now.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flight3107
What would make you think that
Because there isnt another sub averaging 17 points a game that is relied upon as much as Manu, except maybe Gordan, but even the Bulls can win when Ben has a bad game, the Spurs have a hard time replacing what Manu brings when he is having a bad game.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
Because there isnt another sub averaging 17 points a game that is relied upon as much as Manu, except maybe Gordan, but even the Bulls can win when Ben has a bad game, the Spurs have a hard time replacing what Manu brings when he is having a bad game.
I disagree
There is not another player on the suns (maybe the NBA) that can stretch a teams defense the way Barbosa does. Barbosa is just as important to the Suns as Ginobili is to the Spurs
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Except that the Suns have three guys in front of him that average more points, and Bell who averages 2 less points, and Diaw who averages 10, meaning they can get scoring from other places if he has a bad game. Manu is our 3rd leading scorer, and less than 2 points behind our second leading scorer, and after that, our next highest scorer is Brent with 8 points a game, so if he has a bad game, its very difficult to replace his scoring
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergirl
Stack is a punk. There is a reason why he has been dumped by multiple teams and never won a title. He is the anti-clutch.
I'd take Barbosa and Manu over Stack any day.
Just because a player doesn't meet your standards of a role model doesn't detract from the fact that he is a viable candidate for 6th man of the year.
There are those out there that would say they don't think Manu shouldn't win because of him having the label of flopper by some. That shouldn't take away from a player's chances either because a select few don't like a player's way of playing.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardigan
Except that the Suns have three guys in front of him that average more points, and Bell who averages 2 less points, and Diaw who averages 10, meaning they can get scoring from other places if he has a bad game. Manu is our 3rd leading scorer, and less than 2 points behind our second leading scorer, and after that, our next highest scorer is Brent with 8 points a game, so if he has a bad game, its very difficult to replace his scoring
Of course it will be hard to replace Manu's scoring.
But there is not another guy in the league that does what Barbosa does.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flight3107
Of course it will be hard to replace Manu's scoring.
But there is not another guy in the league that does what Barbosa does.
You mean his speed and three point combination or what?
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Spurs fans continue to amaze me, Stack is definitely valuable to ANY team.
Manu should seriously go back to being a starter. He'd start on any other team.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woody Paige
The problem with Manu being a starter is this - by starting, he prevents himself from being a bench contributor. Conversely, by being a bench contributer, he prevents himself from being a starter. It's a pickle of a situation.
It's getting old, fast.
You, like most trolls, need to learn where to pick your spots.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
I think the thing that makes the Manu off the bench decision work is that it more clearly balances the Spurs roster. If Manu starts, the Spurs have nobody in the 2nd unit who can consistently create shots for teammates as well as for himself. Barry can do that, to an extent, but seems to be a better creator when teams have to expend a lot of defensive energy on Duncan and Parker. Barry also tends to benefit (though perhaps not as much of late) from playing in the first group with Duncan because it better allows him to space the floor.
I've wondered of late if the first group wouldn't actually be better with Finley at the two. The Spurs seem to get their best ball movement when Barry and Manu play together and I wonder sometimes if that wouldn't stave off some of the offensive problems that exist with the 2nd group while taking some of the scoring burden in that group off of Manu.
I agree with anyone who thinks that the Spurs biggest problem is the inefficiency they've gotten on the offensive end from Bowen. I'm not inclined to throw Bruce Bowen under the bus or argue that he should be benched. But it's becoming more and more apparent that unless he dramatically turns a corner soon, Bowen's limited offensive utility is almost completely gone.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
If Manu doesn't get it and Ben Gordon comes up short...I think Leandro Barbosa will win it.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
I hope, for Manu's sake, that he does not get it, because he does not consider himself a sixth man. He considers himself someone who has given up his starter's position to help out the bench until the bench recovers from its doldrums. If Pop were to offer him his starting position back, I don't think Manu would refuse.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Manu doesn't give a crap about it anyways.
Quote:
"It's nice to get awards and be treated with respect," he said, "but getting a Sixth Man Award is like being the best left-handed guard. I believe you're either the best player or not." :lol
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
No, I think Kori is right...what will prevent Manu from getting it is that people still think of him as a starter, even when he comes off the bench.
Which is fair, because he has gone back and forth throughout his years with the Spurs, and I believe he averages more MPG coming off the bench than as a starter.
It is clearly, clearly better for the Spurs that he come off the bench. The 13 game win streak wouldn't have happened with out. I believe this is because it allows he and Parker to split time as the playmaker, rather than having to start off on the floor together.
The big question is --and this is unrelated to this thread--who should start instead? Barry or Finley? I'm not sure who is better starting and who is better off the bench. I tend to think Barry is better as a starter, but I'm not sure.
As far as 6th man, I think Barbosa is going to get it. And he's deserving.
Will Bowen get DPOY, finally? Probably not. Actually, I think this year TD is even more deserving of that award.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kori Ellis
Weird thread with all the ignorant talk. (I still don't understand how SpursWoman got called out when it was SuperGirl that was posting) :wtf
Anyway back to the topic, I didn't even consider Stack in the running, but I guess he's worthy.
6th Man of the Year talk around the league has been around Barbosa and Lee all year.
I never have either. He really hasn't played enough minutes to be considered for the award IMO. He's very valuable to the Mavs but since they've been limiting his minutes all season (to make sure he's ok for the playoffs) I never thought of him as being in contention for 6th man award. I don't believe there's been an article written about that in Dallas papers this season.
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Re: SI: Waiting Game-Sixth Man of Year
Gordon plays much more minutes than Manu, I think. That would probably give Manu the edge, he is much more efficient when it comes to minutes.
