Why does Nellie keep getting coaching jobs?

Sorry, this might belong in NBA forum, but I figured there are enough Mavs fans that might want to weigh in.


Nellie's defensive philosophy seems to be -- don't play any. There hasn't been an NBA champion in the last decade that didn't play solid defense. His only smart defensive strategy was the Hack-o-Shaq and the Bang-o-Bowen. Otherwise, he just seems to hope other teams don't shoot well. Dallas didn't become a serious contender until they got rid of Nellie and Nash, two of their biggest defensive liabilities. I'm just wondering what Mavs fan thinks of Nellie.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Sorry, this might belong in NBA forum, but I figured there are enough Mavs fans that might want to weigh in.


Nellie's defensive philosophy seems to be -- don't play any. There hasn't been an NBA champion in the last decade that didn't play solid defense. His only smart defensive strategy was the Hack-o-Shaq and the Bang-o-Bowen. Otherwise, he just seems to hope other teams don't shoot well. Dallas didn't become a serious contender until they got rid of Nellie and Nash, two of their biggest defensive liabilities. I'm just wondering what Mavs fan thinks of Nellie.

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Nellie is a very good basketball coach. He has a long history of being able to build a good team. He just doesn't coach playoff winning basketball. Think of him as the NBA's version of Marty Schottenheimer.

Nellie gets jobs because his teams win games in the regular season and because he seems to know talent and how to use his players fairly effectively. The Warriors have the longest playoff drought of any NBA franchise -- they are similar, in some ways, to the Mavericks team that Nellie inherited in 1997-98. For Golden State, a 41-win season, which they haven't had since 1993-94, would be a step up; a playoff birth would be a minor miracle. Nellie is a good enough coach, with his somewhat unconventional and fairly innovative offensive schemes, to get them to those levels at least. That would be success in the short term in that situation.

With his current job, at least, the short-term goals have nothing to do with championships. Start with getting the 8 seed one time. Then worry about repeating that success. Then hope you add a wunderkind player or two, either through shrewd drafting or a good trade, and proceed from there. It's a baby steps situation (much like Dallas was) and I think Nellie might actually be among the better coaches at handling those kinds of situations.

Beats the shit out of me. I know he got this one mainly because of his track record for turning around bad teams, but primarily because of his close relationship with Warriors GM Chris Mullin.

Even if he does somehow manage to "squeeze" them into the playoffs, his teams never get past the 2nd round.

"his teams never get past the 2nd round."

never? 2003? Spurs were lucky Dirk was hurt.

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Originally Posted by monosylab1k

Nellie is a very good basketball coach. He has a long history of being able to build a good team. He just doesn't coach playoff winning basketball. Think of him as the NBA's version of Marty Schottenheimer.

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I agree with this.

Also, he does a great job of exploiting mismatches on offense. He's all about getting the other team to adjust to your team's offense (to hell with defense). He didn't, actually, used to coach this way in Milwaukee as he had a few very good defensive teams back then. I think he must have just got frustrated with never being able to get past Boston & Phily back then and decided to try to win with offense alone.

The Warriors just want him to get that team going in the right direction before he decides to retire "for real".

to me, Nellie's problem is he is more interested in showing how clever he is and winning Coach of the Year awards than winning championships.

All his gimmicks are great when you have an undermanned team, but when you have a team with a solid talent base you need to focus on playing defense, reboudning, etc. all that boring stuff.

When he coached the Bucks back in the 80s with Marques Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, and Quinn Buckner he understood this, although for various reasons they could never get past the Boston/Philadelphia powerhouses. (Arguably, though, even then there was a year or two he should have beaten them but didn't.)

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Originally Posted by boutons_

"his teams never get past the 2nd round."

never? 2003? Spurs were lucky Dirk was hurt.

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Mavs were lucky they werent down 3-0 at the time Dirk got hurt. When Dirk went down in game 3 it was halfway through the 4th and the spurs were already kicking their asses. The Mavs needed the Spurs to lose 18 point leads twice to get that series to 6 games. Spurs easily would of swept that series otherwise.

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Originally Posted by boutons_

"his teams never get past the 2nd round."

never? 2003? Spurs were lucky Dirk was hurt.

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The Mavs were lucky to not choke a 3-0 series lead to Portland in round 1 and Portland had players like Pippen, D. Anderson, and Dale Davis injured for them. In Round 2, they faced Sacramento and Chris Webber injured his knee in Game 2 of that series and were still pushed to 7 games.

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Originally Posted by boutons_

"his teams never get past the 2nd round."

never? 2003? Spurs were lucky Dirk was hurt.

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WTF? Did you even watch that series? Dirk was so bad defensively at that time that the Mavericks actually played the Spurs much tougher when he went out. Look at Duncan's numbers when Nowitzki played, and then look at them when Najera was the one getting all the minutes at PF after Dirk's injury.

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

Nellie gets jobs because his teams win games in the regular season and because he seems to know talent and how to use his players fairly effectively. The Warriors have the longest playoff drought of any NBA franchise -- they are similar, in some ways, to the Mavericks team that Nellie inherited in 1997-98. For Golden State, a 41-win season, which they haven't had since 1993-94, would be a step up; a playoff birth would be a minor miracle. Nellie is a good enough coach, with his somewhat unconventional and fairly innovative offensive schemes, to get them to those levels at least. That would be success in the short term in that situation.

With his current job, at least, the short-term goals have nothing to do with championships. Start with getting the 8 seed one time. Then worry about repeating that success. Then hope you add a wunderkind player or two, either through shrewd drafting or a good trade, and proceed from there. It's a baby steps situation (much like Dallas was) and I think Nellie might actually be among the better coaches at handling those kinds of situations.

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Exactly.

He was brought in to the Mavericks to do exactly what he was brought into GS to do...get them into the playoffs. Once they're there, he'll need to step down and let someone who can coach some defense into them take over, but that's 10 years down the line for GS.

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Originally Posted by boutons_

"his teams never get past the 2nd round."

never? 2003? Spurs were lucky Dirk was hurt.

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In 2003, the Spurs were lucky they had me.
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/ga...05-29-kerr.jpg

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Originally Posted by Dirties Robbed Me

I have a hard time considering him as a good coach

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I have a hard time concentrating on the topic at hand with DarrinS' sig staring me right in the face!

wow, thats a REALLY bad picture of Kerr, lol.

Makes him look like the bad guy from the Phantasm movies..... or like an 80 year old who still has some muscle definition. :lol

Nellie is very innovative and sly. He knows how to plan for certain players. He does things other people wish they would have thought of. He originated hack-a-shaq. He tried the same thing in 03 by fouling Bruce non stop. It usually takes more than a game to figure out what he is doing to you.

Last night, he kept it close by putting basically 4 gaurds and a tall SF out there and forcing Pop to sit Timmy for a bit. Granted, if it were a playoff Tim would be out there. After Tim got back in, they constantly did a pick and roll forcing Tim to go 1-on-1 with one of the quick Gs who drove past him.

The drawback to that is, once you figure out what he is doing to you, his teams aren't built on much substance. This is the main reason he has never done very well in playoff series - because you see the same thing and after a couple times you deal with it.

Well, that and he doesn't coach defense.

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Originally Posted by monosylab1k

Nellie is a very good basketball coach. He has a long history of being able to build a good team. He just doesn't coach playoff winning basketball. Think of him as the NBA's version of Marty Schottenheimer.

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That's right he is very good at building a team and getting them to a point where they are close to being contenders. However he is not good at getting them over that final hurdle. Which is why he is always fired once his teams hit a certain level.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Why does Nellie keep getting coaching jobs?

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:fro Because he's White :fro

Just kidding!!

Stupid owners keep hiring re-treds just like the nfl

Some owners actually know that their team is not going to win a championship with the talent they have, thus they get a coach who can improve the team instead of taking them to the promised land.
A coach is very much the leader of the pack (despite getting paid a lot less than a normal business), and under different situations, teams choose to have different leaders to attain their short-term goals. The reason Phil Jackson is this successful is because he knows he is a hands-off type of coach who can lead a group who knows the basics of basketball to a common direction. A coach like Larry Brown is an excellent teacher who can lead a group of young players who would listen to him, while Don Nelson is great at letting his team have fun.

and Jeff Van Gundy, and Mike Fratello, and Mike Dunleavy, and.....

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

Sorry, this might belong in NBA forum, but I figured there are enough Mavs fans that might want to weigh in.


Nellie's defensive philosophy seems to be -- don't play any. There hasn't been an NBA champion in the last decade that didn't play solid defense. His only smart defensive strategy was the Hack-o-Shaq and the Bang-o-Bowen. Otherwise, he just seems to hope other teams don't shoot well. Dallas didn't become a serious contender until they got rid of Nellie and Nash, two of their biggest defensive liabilities. I'm just wondering what Mavs fan thinks of Nellie.

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NBA teams are paid by the league to hire Nellie. Each club that is not really in contention has to take a turn.

The purpose: Higher scoring games for the real contenders AS WELL AS ALSO RANS so that fans will swarm to see the games.

Well, let's be honest here. If not for Steve Kerr and the Spurs in '03, Nellie would most likely have gotten his ring. He is actually just below .500 post season. He coached some pretty decent teams. He also had his best years in Milwaukee while the Celts and Lakers were trading Rings in the 80s, then again with the mavs while the Spurs and Lakers were running them off in the '00s.

He's not been a bad coach by any means. A bad coach is Bob Hill or Ron Rothstein or Isaiah Thomas.

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Originally Posted by FromWayDowntown

Nellie gets jobs because his teams win games in the regular season and because he seems to know talent and how to use his players fairly effectively. The Warriors have the longest playoff drought of any NBA franchise -- they are similar, in some ways, to the Mavericks team that Nellie inherited in 1997-98. For Golden State, a 41-win season, which they haven't had since 1993-94, would be a step up; a playoff birth would be a minor miracle. Nellie is a good enough coach, with his somewhat unconventional and fairly innovative offensive schemes, to get them to those levels at least. That would be success in the short term in that situation.

With his current job, at least, the short-term goals have nothing to do with championships. Start with getting the 8 seed one time. Then worry about repeating that success. Then hope you add a wunderkind player or two, either through shrewd drafting or a good trade, and proceed from there. It's a baby steps situation (much like Dallas was) and I think Nellie might actually be among the better coaches at handling those kinds of situations.

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Hit the nail on the head. It's not very often that a franchise player comes through the draft or even the FA. Most teams have to start one step at a time, which means winning here and now. Make the playoffs, even an 8 seed with no chance of advancing, and you become slightly more attractive to free agents. From there, make a trade or two and draft reliable players over the years until you've created a stable winning situation. Once you actually start contending, then you get rid of a coach like Nellie and bring in someone who can win when it counts.

Nellie is not perfect but he did help to create the Mavs as they are now.

You think little general took that team out of his ass?

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Originally Posted by nkdlunch

Nellie is not perfect but he did help to create the Mavs as they are now.

You think little general took that team out of his ass?

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He sure made them a lot better.

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Originally Posted by DarrinS

He sure made them a lot better.

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so? little general is a good coach, doesn't mean he'd take the Warriors to the finals.

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Originally Posted by boutons_

"his teams never get past the 2nd round."

never? 2003? Spurs were lucky Dirk was hurt.

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and mavs were lucky webber was hurt in rd 2

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Originally Posted by Amuseddaysleeper

and mavs were lucky webber was hurt in rd 2

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Yeah they were.

Until last year, the Spurs and Kings never got to throw down in the playoffs. During the Kings heyday it was always the Lakers or Mavs getting in the way.

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Originally Posted by CaptMike

Well, let's be honest here. If not for Steve Kerr and the Spurs in '03, Nellie would most likely have gotten his ring.

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Um, WTF? The Spurs had already erased all but like 2 points of Dallas' lead before Kerr starting shooting. It pisses me off that no one remembers Stephen Jackson as the hero of that game.

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Originally Posted by baseline bum

Um, WTF? The Spurs had already erased all but like 2 points of Dallas' lead before Kerr starting shooting. It pisses me off that no one remembers Stephen Jackson as the hero of that game.

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I do and so do a few others.

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Originally Posted by SenorSpur

Even if he does somehow manage to "squeeze" them into the playoffs, his teams never get past the 2nd round.

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He coached the Bucks to the ECF in th following seasons:
'82-'83
'83-'84
'85-'86
Never say never.

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Originally Posted by cherylsteele

He coached the Bucks to the ECF in th following seasons:
'82-'83
'83-'84
'85-'86
Never say never.

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Those are some of the most underrated teams in NBA history, and Sidney Moncrief is one of the most underrated players I've ever seen. His Bucks went and swept Bird and the Celtics, 4-0, back in '83. I used to love watching the Bucks with Moncrief, TC, Ricky Pierce, and Paul Pressey (I was too young to see them at Moncrief's peak though).

It is a curious phenomenon to me that the NBA (and other sports) have this habit of recycling coaches - as if, well, this person couldn't coach worth a damn for this team, maybe they'll be the savior for this other team. It's pretty illogical. Now, I understand that occasionally it does happen that a team and a coach are just not a good fit, but more often than not, the coach is just not good enough.

Paul Silas? Rick Carlisle? Maurice Cheeks? Byron Scott? There's no evidence these guys can coach worth a damn, even though they may have been decent players. They're been shifted around so much I think it's time for their teams to bring in someone totally new, totally fresh, instead of some other team's recycled hasbeen.

I think it's interesting that the two new coaches I can think of in the NBA (AJ and Mike D'Antoni) are currently coaching for two of the top 3 teams in the NBA. One could posit that those two teams really benefited from having fresh new ideas and leadership.

Youre right. He is a great starter coach/setup man in the NBA. Nellie is there, in my opinion, to get the team to the playoffs and to put butts in seats. From there i assume they'll put in a playoff caliber coach.

And nellie did a lot for the mavs, but this team moved away from that and now have a totally different identity under avery. IMO dirk with avery, way better than dirk with nellie.

The question you should be asking is how does BOB HILL keep getting coaching jobs. At least you have fun watching Nellie's teams (unless he is doing his "gimmick of the week" thing against your team) and they win a lot of regular season games.

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Originally Posted by Supergirl

It is a curious phenomenon to me that the NBA (and other sports) have this habit of recycling coaches - as if, well, this person couldn't coach worth a damn for this team, maybe they'll be the savior for this other team. It's pretty illogical. Now, I understand that occasionally it does happen that a team and a coach are just not a good fit, but more often than not, the coach is just not good enough.

Paul Silas? Rick Carlisle? Maurice Cheeks? Byron Scott? There's no evidence these guys can coach worth a damn, even though they may have been decent players. They're been shifted around so much I think it's time for their teams to bring in someone totally new, totally fresh, instead of some other team's recycled hasbeen.

I think it's interesting that the two new coaches I can think of in the NBA (AJ and Mike D'Antoni) are currently coaching for two of the top 3 teams in the NBA. One could posit that those two teams really benefited from having fresh new ideas and leadership.

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I agree with your sentiment, but you picked two bad examples in your list of retreads.

Byron Scott took two Nets teams to the NBA Finals, something his replacement hasn't been able to do despite having more talent. And he's done a decent job the past two years with a Hornets team that nobody expected much out of.

Carlisle has a COY and in his first three years accomplished about as much as D'Antoni.

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Originally Posted by mavs4ever

cuz he knows how to party after a game.

he dont pussyfoot around in a tootoo sipping a dainty wine glass like some crater faced sissyboy, he chugs coronas, and he dont wait till after the cameras are off.

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LOL him doing the interview with a case of beer in hand was definitely one of his greatest moments ever.

They say that during the playoffs on the team plane, Nellie would regularly be getting hammered while playing poker as he let Avery handle all the planning for the next game in the series.

Its simple. He makes bad teams into contenders. He made the Warriors what they were in the 90's, he made the Bucks what they were in the 80's and he made the Mavs what they are today. Not to mention he's the guy who traded Tractor Traylor for Dirk Nowitzki. He's the one who drafted Josh with the #29th pick. He's the one who traded Juwan Howard for Lafrentz and Van Exel. He's made great moves. The Warriors don't have the personnel to play defense so why bother? If he had a starting lineup of Bruce Bowen, Dwight Howard, Ron Artest, Jason Kidd and Kobe Bryant than yea i'm sure they'd be playing better defense. But they don't have the personnel.