:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
so twoo
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:lolQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
so twoo
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
When Chump or his cronies post about 9/11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
When anyone else post about 9/11
Why so offended? I was just pointing out that the 'prevailing opinion' that thermite could not be used effectively to cut steel beams is no longer a given...your pixies and dancing fairies example would be sooooo,,.... original and mildly amusing if we weren't talking about the death of 2000+ AmericansQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
....thermite needs to be thrown back into the mix.....
...Mouse is right....
None of this was in the 911 Commission report, nor in the NIST analysis....your speculating....could have been fairies and pixie dust too...or thermiteQuote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy
Quote:
Originally Posted by mouse
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They have no dignity....just watch...
Once the 'stretches in truth' in the 9/11 Commission report are exposed, because lies always eventually are (think Able Danger), watch how quick Randomlie and Chumpy, the report largest cheerleaders, run away from it...
:tongue
So no comment from the resident conspiracy non-theorists about the UPS batteries.
Just attempts to change the subject.
:tu
lol speculating
Here we have a truther attempting to prove the thermite theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
With a good bit of effort, he does manage to prove it is possible to use thermite and shaped "cutters" to cut vertical columns using thermate.
Unfortunately, he doesn't really solve the rest of the problems for the theory:
1) The requirement to have access to all the columns, including the requirement to cut through office walls to access the appropriate columns.
2) The sheer amount of labor it would take.
3) The massive amount of heat and smoke produced.
4) How to proof his cutters against the shock of impact and fire.
This sets aside the circular logic of his theory, and the misleading half-truths presented as complete facts.
Not altogether convincing, although I do give him credit for succeeding where NG failed.
I am still left with the impression that the guy was lying to me by omission.
You forgot
5) How to place them precisely at the floors of impact for both towers in the first place.
6) How to make the "molten steel" fountain at only one corner of one tower (coincidentally where a banks of lead acid batteries were known to have existed) and nowhere else.
Let's put this into some perspective. Let's see how this would play in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
Is is possible to conclusively identify a molten metal from a photograph or eyewitness account?
No.
Do banks, as a matter of course, have large battery backups to keep their computers running in the case of a blackout?
Yes.
Was there a large bank on the floor where this molten material was noted?
Yes.
Do the plans note that space was occupied by "UPS"?
Yes.
Is UPS a common acronym for "Uninterruptible Power Supply"?
Yes.
Are most large battery arrays made from lead-acid batteries?
Yes.
Would these batteries melt and short out when exposed to an uncontrolled office fire?
Yes.
What would that look like?
Electric arcing, a white-colored intensely bright fire, some explosions due to hydrogen gas from the batteries.
If a large bank of these, sufficient to provide power for a large bank's computer system were exposed to such a fire with temperatures normally associated with such fires, describe what would happen to the battery array.
The liquids in the battery, a strong lead-acid would start to heat and give off hydrogen gas in large amounts, leading to a series of explosions sounding much like sequential gun fire. As the fire progressed, the casings would melt, and a large amount of pure molten lead from the interior anodic and cathodic plates would start running down to the floor accumulating in a large puddle.
Would this be consistant with eyewitness accounts?
Yes.
Would this puddle then flow, like any liquid, seeking the lowest point due to gravity?
Yes.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now enter the truther to the stand.
You have shown it is possible to cut vertical columns using thermite, and contend that "super-thermite" was used to cut columns, leading to the collapse of these buildings.
How much super-thermite would be required?
I don't know.
Can you tell me if it was available in the large quantities in 2001?
No.
Your method for cutting vertical columns requires some pretty specific equipment, the "cutters" from the video that are not completely destroyed in the process. Do you have any pictures of these cutters being found at ground zero afterwards?
No.
Do you have any eyewitness testimony from the professional firefighters, or steelworkers noting the existance of these devices when they combed over the area intensively in the period after the collapse?
No.
Would these cutters have been completely destroyed in the process?
No.
How many cutters would have been required to collapse the building in the manner you suggested?
Hundreds, if not thousands.
To place these hundreds or thousands of devices, would access to the structural members be required?
Yes.
What would that have entailed?
Cutting through a lot of existing interior walls.
Would this have created some pretty notable disruptions to the crowded offices where this activity was taking place?
Yes.
Do you have any testimony or accounts of this happening?
No.
How much labor would have been required to place these cutters in sufficient numbers to implode the buildings in the manner you propose?
Thousands of man-hours.
Do you have any witnesses that describe such large amounts of unusual activity?
No.
You say that the material falling from the 80th floor is molten steel from this process. Is it possible to conclusively determine the composition of a molten metal from pictures or video?
No.
You have an eyewitness claiming it was "molten steel". Did he test the pools of molten metal for chemical composition?
No.
How did he arrive at the conclusion that it was molten steel?
He looked at it.
How is that different from looking at a picture of molten metal and trying to determine what kind of metal it is?
It isn't.
If the material was molten steel, and you theorize that almost all the other floors had such devices all melting steel at the same time, would there be other pools or streams of material?
Yes.
Were there any other places where such streams of material were witnessed?
No.
So the only stream of molten material witnesses just happened to be in the general area of a large array of lead-acid batteries?
Yes.
No further questions.
You consistantly ignore relevant questions when they are put to you in this forum, but you cannot dodge them in court, and neither would your "experts" be able to under oath.
That is really where the weakness of your "thermite" theory rests.
I don't mind dishonesty on the part of you or your experts, but such dishonesty is called "perjury" when applied to witnesses under oath and it is a crime, and courts tend to view that pretty dimly.
I got there, just had to type up a quick exchange.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChumpDumper
I was going to ask Dan/mouse those questions, but we all know they would avoid/ignore/lie in response, so I thought it best to provide the honest answers and short cut the process.
So there you have it, this evidence is busted because RandomLie has 'an impression'...Quote:
I am still left with the impression that the guy was lying to me by omission.
....disagree with the status quo and you are dealt with......what a joke....
This is RandomLie's only forum weapon....try to bury you with details that you couldn't possibly know without a real September 11 investigation....pathetic....Quote:
1) The requirement to have access to all the columns, including the requirement to cut through office walls to access the appropriate columns.
2) The sheer amount of labor it would take.
3) The massive amount of heat and smoke produced.
4) How to proof his cutters against the shock of impact and fire.
Yet your convinced its lead from batteries...do you have physical evidence that the heat in that specific part of the building was hot enough and was sustained long enough to melt batteries and that these batteries in fact melted...Quote:
Is is possible to conclusively identify a molten metal from a photograph or eyewitness account?
No.
No...
Either we believe that a group of 19 militants, part of an organization with a history of attacks against these United States, carried out the 9-11 attacks by exploiting various weaknesses in commercial airline security, immigration processes, and national intelligence or we believe in some kind of nebulous conspiracy (the members of whom, and goals thereof, changes with each passing day) which would require an incredible degree of secrecy, high levels of technical execution, rampant willingness to risk disgrace and financial and legal repercussions if their involvement was disclosed, and a fair amount of overkill given that even if the WTC towers did not fall, this nation would still have been in the frame of mind to go to war (the one constant goal of the shadowy, make believe league of treasonous villains).
Anyone who is sane or has actually managed to move out of mom's basement can figure out which scenario is more likely. The end.
Your speculating again....now without any proof, the intense fire was sustained in that one area of the building long enough and the battery lead pooled...then fairies flew from your ass....Quote:
Do the plans note that space was occupied by "UPS"?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
Or, even the militants were mere patsies in the larger scheme of things...
....follow the money....
The legacy of the cottage conspiracy theory industry spawned by the JFK assassination and penny ante utilitarian materialism rampant in American life. Show that someone benefits somehow and the conspiracy is proven. Qed.
That's your best evidence if you had to go to a court-of-law? Seriously?Quote:
Are most large battery arrays made from lead-acid batteries?
Yes.
Can you prove that those specific UPS were lead-acid battery?
Was it possible to produce the amount of lead scene in the video?
How many battery lead would have to pool to create that amount of lead?
Was the fire hot enough to melt batteries in that specific area?
Was the fire sustained long enough to melt batteries in that specific area?
Do you have physical evidence of melted batteries?
Do you have physical evidence that batteries exploded?
....Once again......No....
Yeah, heads rolled after 9/11...Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant
NOT!
:rolleyes
And so the initial conspiracy grows larger and more elaborate.
would your evidence of wrong doing be a youtube video?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
burden of proof does not go this way.Quote:
Can you prove that those specific UPS were lead-acid battery?
Was it possible to produce the amount of lead scene in the video?
How many battery lead would have to pool to create that amount of lead?
Was the fire hot enough to melt batteries in that specific area?
Was the fire sustained long enough to melt batteries in that specific area?
Do you have physical evidence of melted batteries?
Do you have physical evidence that batteries exploded?
....Once again......No....
What good does that do when the chemical markers that would be present were not? Tell me, how much of that oxidized aluminum did they find? Finding aluminum, iron, and other elements is not the same as finding specific markers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
"Can you prove that those specific UPS were lead-acid battery?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Nbadan
I personally cannot. Nor do I care to fully flesh out everything for you. Sorry. It would be a fairly accessible item of information for the bank's IT director, I suppose.
Have at it.
FWIW:
http://www.jetcafe.org/npc/doc/ups-faq.htmlQuote:
Almost all UPSes use lead-acid batteries, like most car batteries.
"Was it possible to produce the amount of lead scene [sic] in the video?"
I think one of you truthers actually calculated the volume. It didn't seem to be on the scale that would rule out a large room full of industrial UPS batteries. I used to work in a building with an entire large room devoted to such UPS'. They were big, with several rows.
As for the rest of it:
These kinds of batteries do not react well to fires. Any car buff will tell you about the amount of hydrogen produced by any acid battery, lead or not.
I do not have any physical evidence of melted batteries, nor do I need to have them. All I need to do is to show they were there before hand.
You're cute, but your attempt at cross-examination is weaksauce on bread.