Fine. Then don't complain when it costs.Quote:
You’re damn right I go into the stands, regardless of how much it may eventually cost me.
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Fine. Then don't complain when it costs.Quote:
You’re damn right I go into the stands, regardless of how much it may eventually cost me.
I guess this topic couldn't have fit into another one.
Therein lies the dispute. Is getting beer thrown on you an attack? And is it worth punching someone for. Civilized people say no.Quote:
To me, self-defense is this: If you attack me, I’m going to attack you back.
What's really bad is how Detroit came out with basically a slap on the wrist, and that's not right at all. I can't wait until late Jan early Feb when Jax and JO come back....just remember, "revenge is a dish that is best served cold."
Again, when did the Pistons start attacking fans?Quote:
Originally Posted by pooh
When did the Pistons lay some guy out that was on his knees?
When did the Pistons bring a broom out of the hallway?
How many Pistons had their jerseys re-arranged because they were pulled off of people?
Detroit players didn't punch anyone. I imagine there will still be fines for the organization. Stern isn't done yet with this.
See the Srping 2005 meeting between the two teams with Jax and JO in Conseco and you'll see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_Blaze_47
Don't be a hater Pooh.
I wonder if this would qualify as pre-planning a crime.Quote:
Originally Posted by pooh
*Calls Homeland Security*
you can ban alcohol at the arena all you want...i will smuggle it in anyways and enjoy it responsibly
I find it funny no one responds when one of the most respectable players in the game defends Artest and no one has anything to say about it. It's BASH BASH the "THUGS".
I just re-saw the tape and although he was wrong, I don't have a problem with what Artest or Jackson did. I do have a problem with what O'neil did.
Artest, no matter what people say, how wrong he is, this doesn't happen if:
1) Wallace doesn't over react to a hard foul.
2) If that stupid fan doesn't throw a drink full of liquid at him.
No matter how you put it, doesn't happen!!!!!! Cause and Effect!!!!!! It was just the straw that broke the camels back. If you get touched, as a person, no matter who you are, you have a right to touch back. Don't matter what your job is. Nobody has a right to throw something at you or hit you.
Granted he went after the wrong guy, but looking at the replays, he doesn't really do anything to him. He grabs him by the face and knocks him down, that's it. He doesn't beat the crap out of him, like people are saying. He gets pulled away and then the "REAL" idiot starts punching him. Artest does start to punch him back. He has every right too, same for the guy who came charging at him on the floor.
SJ
As much as people want to say he came in swinging I just don't see it. If you really look at the replays. He comes in a couple of rows on top of Artest, he's looking directly at Artest as to pull him out. Then the fan with the black shirt to the right throws another drink at Artest, thats when SJ pops him "one", not two or three. Then when the idiot in the cap starts to hit Artest, he starts to lay it on him. He doesn't just start swinging away as people put it. Show me one guy he hits for no reason.
Oneil
Oneil hitting that guy who was getting up was just awful, funniest, but awful. There was absoultely no reason to hit that poor shubby fellow.
Everybody has their own opinion. Fact is, as A PERSON, no one has a right to disrepect you in anyway shape or form. Doesn't matter if it was just a cup of water or a chair. You have NO RIGHT.
Yeah? And the playoffs are a part of the season best made. A winning is a regular season best had....Not to mention that homecourt is an advantage best gained...Quote:
Originally Posted by pooh
You're fucked. Piston fan got over on your headcase and together they took your whole franchise down for the count in the 04-05 season.
NYT: One Player Barred for Season as N.B.A. Responds to Brawl
November 22, 2004
By LIZ ROBBINS, NY Times
The National Basketball Association imposed its stiffest
collective penalties ever yesterday, suspending the Indiana
Pacers' Ron Artest for the remaining 72 games of the season
and suspending his teammates Stephen Jackson and Jermaine
O'Neal for a combined 55 games for fighting with fans
Friday night.
In a sequence replayed repeatedly on television in the past
48 hours, Pacers players charged into the stands at the
Palace of Auburn Hills in Michigan in perhaps the worst
brawl in pro basketball history.
Jackson was barred for 30 games, O'Neal for 25. Detroit
Pistons center Ben Wallace, who shoved Artest and
instigated an on-court tussle between the teams after a
hard foul by Artest, received a six-game suspension. Five
other players received lesser suspensions. All the
suspensions are without pay, and the players union said it
would appeal them.
The police are investigating possible criminal charges.
In a 40-minute news conference before last night's
Knicks-Cavaliers game at Madison Square Garden, N.B.A.
Commissioner David Stern condemned the players' actions and
emphasized the need for greater fan control and arena
security. He said the league would redefine acceptable fan
behavior and would discuss curtailing beer sales. Stern
said fans who did not meet the new standard would be barred
permanently, although he did not elaborate on how that
could be accomplished. The league is also planning to
re-examine security at all 29 arenas.
"We have to make the point that there are boundaries in our
games," he said, "and that one of those boundaries, which
has always been immutable, is the boundary that separates
the fans from the court. And players cannot lose control
and go into the stands. As a corollary, we have to hold
fans responsible for their antisocial behavior as well."
Artest said in a statement released by the union: "I
respect David Stern, but I don't think that he has been
fair with me in this situation. It's very important to me
that people understand that I didn't mean for the situation
to turn out like it did. It really hurt me to see the
children crying on TV, and I think about how it could have
been my own kids. I also regret and apologize to fans who
were upset by what happened."
(note: sniff sniff.
note: he did NOT say he was sorry for doing it, but sorry the fans got upset at what he did.)
The league, which enjoyed growing popularity in the 1990's
with the success of Michael Jordan, has had to deal with
several hits to its image.
One of the league's stars, the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, played
under the cloud of a rape accusation last season; the case
was dismissed over the summer. Recently, Latrell Sprewell,
scheduled to be paid $14.6 million this season, said he
wanted to be traded because of trouble in reaching a deal
on a contract extension, saying he needed to feed his
family. Sprewell was the last player suspended for the
remainder of a season, when he choked his coach on the
Golden State Warriors, P. J. Carlesimo, in 1997.
Stern said he was confident the suspensions would hold; the
appeals will be made directly to him. Billy Hunter, the
executive director of the players union, called the
suspension of Artest unfair and said the length of the
other suspensions was "a bit egregious."
(note: Billy Hunter knows who signs his checks, the whore)
He also criticized those who run the Palace. "Where was the
security?" Hunter said. "They sell a lot of alcohol, and it
seemed that the people who were involved were people who
had a little too much to drink."
Over the past two days, coaches and players throughout the
league blamed security and unruly fans, but acknowledged
that the league's image had been damaged.
"It just leaves a bad taste in our mouth; it gives our
opponents of our league a chance to say, 'Look how out of
control the league is,' " Celtics Coach Doc Rivers said in
an interview Saturday. "We have some guys who are out of
control, but not the whole league."
Rivers had a meeting Saturday with his players. "I told
them a lot of things may happen, but the one thing that can
never happen is going into the stands," he said.
The N.B.A.'s swift suspensions made an impression on
players and coaches. "It shows me this kind of thing is not
going to be tolerated under any circumstances," Cleveland
Cavaliers Coach Paul Silas said.
The Cavaliers star LeBron James said he could not believe
Artest was suspended for the rest of the season.
"It was shocking that it had to go that way because I
really don't think he initiated it," James said. "It was
shocking and it's kind of sad that some of our good players
are suspended. To keep our image up, we kind of need those
guys."
(note: LBJ needs to stick to basketball, and stop trying to think.)
The Pacers, with the best record in the Eastern Conference,
lost their top three scorers. Their backup point guard,
Anthony Johnson, out with a broken hand, was suspended for
five games. Indiana guard Reggie Miller was suspended for
one game for leaving the bench. So were Detroit's Elden
Campbell, Derrick Coleman and Chauncey Billups.
Indiana, considered a favorite to reach the Eastern
Conference finals again, may have opened the door to its
opponents.
"Clearly, without those three guys, you got to go in there
thinking you have an edge," Silas said.
Stern said he took responsibility for the lack of control
at Friday's game.
Artest, the reigning defensive player of the year, has had
a history of misbehavior. Before Friday night, he was
suspended for a total of 15 games by the league and by his
teams. In January 2003, he destroyed a Madison Square
Garden camera and slammed a monitor to the ground. He
amassed nine flagrant foul points during that season.
Two weeks ago, the Pacers benched him for two games when he
requested time off from what he said was a busy schedule,
including the promotion of a rap album on his label.
Stern said, "I did not strike from my mind the fact that
Ron Artest has been suspended on previous occasions for a
loss of self-control."
(note: but he keeps playing well, That's Entertainment)
Stern made the decision after the league conducted two days
of interviews with the players involved - excluding Artest,
Jackson and O'Neal. Stern said they were exempt because of
the possibility they would be involved in legal action.
"There may well be lawsuits with players against fans and
fans against players," Stern said.
The Oakland County prosecutor, David C. Gorcyca, said:
"There's going to be some criminal charges from what I've
seen. It's just a matter of identifying fans and trying to
determine whether certain people were acting in
self-defense."
Gorcyca said he expected to receive a brief from the Auburn
Hills police department this morning outlining the case,
and he said he would consider possible charges.
If the suspensions stand, Artest will lose $5 million in
salary, and O'Neal $4.1 million.
Stern said O'Neal's suspension would have been longer had
O'Neal succeeded in getting past the people restraining him
and jumped into the stands.
"No one can condone what happened in Auburn Hills," Arn
Tellem, O'Neal's agent, said in a statement. "But no one
can justify the N.B.A.'s rush to judgment regarding
Jermaine O'Neal.
(note: Arn you dickhead, there was no rush to judegement)
"Without any consideration of the danger created by fans
running wildly and aggressively on the court, without any
consideration of the players' fear for their own safety
while they were under attack, without review of the
security failures of both the N.B.A. and the Palace, and
without any consideration of past player disciplinary
rulings, the N.B.A. has singled out Jermaine O'Neal in an
arbitrary and capricious way."
(note: Arn you dickhead, Jermaine was at the top of the heap of several suspended jersk, was NOT singled out)
================================================== =====
yep, the agents and lawyers are gonna lie and buy and weasal their clients' asses out of this mess.
How about this way. Artest chooses not to do it. You can't necessarily control your emotions but you can control your behavior. Artest made a concious desicion to go into the stands...he didn't have to...he chose to. Along that same line of logic...this doesn't happen if Artest is taken out of the game before it happens...so then does the blame lie with Rick Carlisle? Along that same line of logic this doesn't happen if Artest never gets traded from Chicago...so then does blame lie with Jerry Krause who traded Artest? Along that same line of logic...this doesn't happen if Mr. and Mrs. Artest decide not to do the horizontal mambo! so then does blame lie with them? Artest chose, CHOSE, that course of action of going into the stands. He now has to live with the consequences of his actions.Quote:
Artest, no matter what people say, how wrong he is, this doesn't happen if:
1) Wallace doesn't over react to a hard foul.
2) If that stupid fan doesn't throw a drink full of liquid at him.
No matter how you put it, doesn't happen!!!!!!
No that's the in the same line. The fan CHOSE to throw the beverage. Once that happens. As a human being, you have a right to throw something back. Doesn't matter your proffesion.
You have a right to throw something back? What gives you the right? Legally you don't. He wasn't in danger at that point. So it's not self defense.Quote:
Once that happens. As a human being, you have a right to throw something back.
I'm not saying its self defense. It has nothing to do with Self Defense. No one has a right to throw any type of object at another person.
Not excusing anyone for what happened. But the fromeister started it all, IMO.Quote:
1) Wallace doesn't over react to a hard foul.
Quote:
Originally Posted by samikeyp
I'm not saying self defense, But yes having any type of object thrown at you is being attacked.
Who says a person is civilized or not????????
I would say I'm very civilized and if you threw something at me, I would hope I would walk away. But if my adreline is pumping I would go straight to you amd swing, or at least shove the shit out of you.
says who? one stupid act means you HAVE to follow it with another? You can't necessarily control your emotions but you can control your actions. If you lack the ability to control your actions, you need professional help.Quote:
you have a right to throw something back.
you said that...then you said this...you can't have it both ways.Quote:
I'm not saying its self defense. It has nothing to do with Self Defense. No one has a right to throw any type of object at another person.
Charges to Be Filed In Pistons-Pacers Brawl
By Greg Sandoval, Washington Post
Authorities in Auburn Hills, Mich., confirmed yesterday that they intend to file charges against members of the Indiana Pacers -- as well as a number of fans -- involved in Friday night's brawl during a game between the Pacers and Detroit Pistons.
"Charges are forthcoming," Oakland County prosecutor David Gorcyca said in a phone interview. "Players and fans will be charged. . . . Eventually all those responsible will be held accountable."
Gorcyca is waiting until all the evidence is gathered before charging individuals, a process that will take at least two weeks, said Lt. James Manning of the Auburn Hills Police Department. The investigation has been slowed by the sheer volume of altercations captured on video.
Police have also begun investigating new reports that Indiana reserve center David Harrison struck a man during the melee but apparently out of camera range. "The information that we've received is that Harrison hit a 60-year-old man without any provocation," Gorcyca said.
Harrison, via a Pacers spokesman, declined to comment.
A day after the NBA suspended four Pacers -- including forward Ron Artest for the remainder of the season (73 games), swingman Stephen Jackson for 30 games and center-forward Jermaine O'Neal for 25 games -- the Indiana franchise rallied around the embattled players.
A spokesman for the NBA Players Association said it will appeal the Pacers' suspensions by tomorrow. The players' union will also ask that the appeals be heard by an independent arbitrator. League rules state that Commissioner David Stern has the final say on all appeals. Stern handed out the initial punishment Sunday.
"We're backing Ronnie 100 percent," said Larry Bird, Indiana's president of basketball operations during an afternoon news conference. "We support all our players. At times like this we need the support of our fans and I think we'll have it."
Friday night's game ended in one of the ugliest incidents in professional sports history when a brawl broke out in the final minute of Indiana's 97-82 victory, forcing the game to be called before the final buzzer. Arena officials have said nine people suffered injuries.
The brawl started after Detroit's Ben Wallace shoved Artest following a hard foul. As Artest lay on the scorer's table, he was struck by a beverage thrown from the stands and went into the crowd and exchanged punches with several men.
Jackson also charged into the stands and fought with fans. Later, the fighting spilled onto the court, where video captured O'Neal slugging a man. Throughout, players were pelted with objects thrown by numerous fans, such as ice, cups of liquid and popcorn.
Artest apologized Sunday. O'Neal, an all-star, issued his own statement yesterday.
"I was distressed and shocked to see the situation spiral out of control," O'Neal said. "I regret what happened, and I promise to work as hard as I can to help restore respect for NBA basketball."
Wallace was suspended for six games but said he will not appeal.
Nine fans have filed complaints alleging they were attacked during the fracas, according to Gorcyca's office.
Because no one was seriously injured, most of the people involved in the altercation face misdemeanor assault-and-battery charges, which under Michigan law are punishable by up to 93 days in jail.
"Had it not been for the notoriety of the athletes, these charges would not be considered a big deal," said Gorcyca. "Typically, this case would not have even reached my desk."
Only one of the people involved in the melee could be charged with a felony: the man who threw a folding chair that struck a policeman, Gorcyca said.
Police have also interviewed the man who they say threw the drink that struck Artest. Manning would not discuss whether the man will face charges but he did say that throwing anything at the Palace of Auburn Hills, the Pistons' home court, is a violation of a local ordinance and could mean a 90-day jail term.
Police are seeking to interview players, coaches and members of the media at the game.
"We're going to coordinate our information before we present our final case," said Manning. "We also still have to determine who was defending themselves and who were the aggressors."
Come on, Larry, for you of all people, how are the IND players "supportable" by IND org or fans? morally? financially?
We'll see how tough Stern (ie, owners group who selected him) will be.
I personally refuse the lawyer-written apologies of the IND players.
The Courage to Tackle the Brawlers
By John Feinstein, (appears Washington Post)
The best thing that happened to college football this past weekend was Ron Artest. If not for the out-of-control behavior of the now-suspended Indiana Pacers forward, the fight that broke out during the fourth quarter of the South Carolina-Clemson football game on Saturday would have been the story that all those who follow sports would be wringing their hands over right now.
Instead, the extraordinarily disturbing scene that unfolded in Detroit Friday night is dominating the airwaves and print. The videotape of what started as an on-court shoving match between Artest and the Pistons' Ben Wallace has already been replayed thousands of times, and NBA Commissioner David Stern guaranteed that the story would continue to be everyone's lead when he handed down unprecedented suspensions for Artest (gone for the Pacers' remaining 73 games this season) and teammates Stephen Jackson (30 games) and Jermaine O'Neal (25 games) on Sunday.
Good for Stern. He quickly recognized that, regardless of provocation -- and there was, without question, provocation -- players cannot go into the stands. Period. The players will appeal and correctly point out the awful behavior of the fans, part of a disturbing trend, but that doesn't matter. Stern did something too rare in sports today: He acted, swiftly and decisively.
One would not have expected the same of Andrew A. Sorensen and James F. Barker, the presidents of South Carolina and Clemson, respectively. The fight that broke out in the fourth quarter of Clemson's 29-7 victory Saturday was, in its own way, every bit as ugly as the Pistons-Pacers riot. The football fight involved dozens of players, most of whom left the sidelines and many of whom ignored state police who came on the field to try to break up the melee. Lou Holtz, South Carolina's 67-year-old coach, who had told his players earlier in the week that he was retiring, was right in the middle, helplessly trying to stop the madness.
To his credit, Holtz was abjectly apologetic and apoplectic when order was finally restored, saying he had never seen anything as appalling in more than 40 years as a football coach. Holtz's comments sharply contrasted with those of Tommy Bowden, his counterpart at Clemson, who called the fights "unjustifiable" but then went on to explain that football is a violent game and that these things sometimes happen.
Apparently, Barker and Sorensen disagree. Yesterday, their schools announced that they would reject any postseason bowl bid they were offered. Good for them. It is about time for some of America's educators to stand up and behave like educators. This is an example of trying to teach athletes and fans the difference between right and wrong.
These incidents are part of a trend in sports. There is so much hype connected to everything in sports today because of nonstop sports talk radio and the proliferation of all-sports networks: Pro football, pro basketball, tennis and golf all have 24-hour networks, in addition to the ubiquitous ESPN. The TV networks show highlights of violent behavior over and over, and they constantly offer up angry programming in which people shout at one another as if the question of which rivalry is better than another or which quarterback should start on Sunday is as important as what to do about Iraq. On radio, fans are encouraged to call in and voice hatred for opponents and to complain when their team fails them, as if these failures are somehow destroying their lives.
On-air "personalities" become stars by calling athletes and coaches names. Former Redskins head coach Steve Spurrier has been derided and called -- among other things -- "a pathetic human being" by talk-show hosts in Washington. This past weekend, at the end of what ESPN blaringly calls "Rivalry Week," there was a fight in the stands at the Harvard-Yale game. Harvard-Yale!
The notion of respecting your opponent is long gone in far too many places. At most professional sporting events and big-time college events, the public address announcer is under orders to barely acknowledge the presence of the visiting team. Names are practically whispered during introductions, and good plays are nearly ignored. But the home team makes an entrance surrounded by smoke, fireworks, cheerleaders, blaring music and a screaming announcer. First downs or three-point shots are treated as if man has landed on the moon for the first time. All of which sets up an atmosphere that encourages hostility. Coaches tell their teams constantly: "Everyone in this building hates you. Let's go out there and shut them up."
Perhaps it began in 1993, when a lunatic came out of the stands during a tennis tournament in Germany and stabbed Monica Seles, then the No. 1-ranked female player. The fact that he was given a suspended sentence by a German judge set a terrible precedent. Two years ago a Kansas City Royals coach was attacked on the field by two fans in Chicago. Even golf has been afflicted: At the 1999 Ryder Cup, U.S. fans constantly screamed profanities at European players on the final day.
The NBA's Stern took decisive, immediate action: no hand-wringing, no delays, no excuses. Buried in the news about the basketball suspensions yesterday morning were statements from the commissioners of the leagues that Clemson and South Carolina play in. Both were upset. Both said they would investigate further. Neither said a word about recommending to the college presidents that they turn down the postseason bowl bids that were likely to be extended to the two football teams.
But, to their everlasting credit, Barker and Sorensen acted as swiftly as Stern. So in a sense, a weekend that began as a low point for all of sports may have ended up as a much-needed new beginning. What the two presidents did yesterday was a show of guts and integrity not seen in big-time college athletics in a good long while.
The writer is the author of "The Punch," a book about a famous pro basketball fight, and, with co-author Red Auerbach, "Let Me Tell You a Story."
Artest Speaks Out
INDIANAPOLIS -- Indiana Pacers forward Ron Artest said Tuesday he wishes he hadn't gotten into a fight with fans but feels his season-ending suspension was too harsh.
"I don't think it was fair -- that many games," Artest said in an interview with NBC's "Today" show. "I respect (NBA Commissioner) David Stern's decisions, but I don't think I should have been out for the whole season."
It was Artest's first national interview since he was suspended for charging into the stands and fighting with fans late in Friday night's game against the Detroit Pistons in Auburn Hills, a Detroit suburb. The suspension amounts to 72 games in an 82-game season, and means he will lose about $5 million.
Four other Pacers players were suspended for shorter periods, including Stephen Jackson (30 games) and Jermaine O'Neal (25 games).
Artest bolted into the stands after being hit by a cup thrown by a spectator, touching off a brawl in which players exchanged punches with fans, who also doused the Pacers with drinks, popcorn, a chair and other debris.
"I wish that situation never happened," Artest said. "It wasn't good at all, for anybody."
"This is the third time that I've been hit with something out of the crowd," said Artest, who claimed he had been struck previously in Detroit and in Cleveland.
No charges had been filed in the brawl, but if any are they most likely would be misdemeanor assault and battery, Oakland County, Mich., prosecutor David Gorcyca said Monday.
The only possible felony charge currently under consideration would be against the unidentified person who hurled a chair into the crowd, Gorcyca said. Authorities asked the public to help identify that person.
After repeatedly watching footage of the brawl, the prosecutor personally identified John Green -- a former neighbor of Gorcyca -- as the fan who threw a cup that hit Artest.
Once Artest was in the stands, Green grabbed him from behind and sucker-punched him, the prosecutor said.
Green, 39, a contractor, told reporters Monday that it may have looked like he threw the cup, but he didn't.
"I wish the whole thing didn't happen," he said. "It was awful, it was ugly."
Green's attorney, Shawn Smith, said his client only became involved in the brawl when he saw Artest hitting a smaller man.
"We have no comment on who threw the cup, it's irrelevant," Smith said. He said fans shouldn't throw things, "but is it a criminal offense? I don't think so."
During an appearance Tuesday on ABC's "Good Morning America," Green described himself as a respected businessman with a wife and two children. He said he was not drinking Friday night.
"I don't go around breaking the law," he said "If they have found that I broke the law, I'll pay the price."
But Gorcyca said Green was on probation for his third offense of driving under the influence. Green's record also includes convictions for carrying a concealed weapon and check fraud, according to the Michigan Department of Corrections' database.
Pistons chief executive Tom Wilson said Green is a season-ticket holder and will be banned from The Palace.
Auburn Hills Police Chief Doreen Olko said her office had spoken to nine people who said they were injured in the fight, but that the injuries were relatively minor.
Artest had not yet been interviewed by Michigan authorities, the chief said.
During the "Today" interview, simulcast with Indianapolis radio station WNOU, Artest plugged his new CD and wore a T-shirt and hat emblazoned with the logo of his record label -- TruWarier Records.
Artest said he had no ill will toward Detroit's Ben Wallace, who got things started when he shoved Artest after a foul late in the game.
"Wallace just had a death in the family, so I'm understanding," he said Monday night on WHHH radio in Indianapolis.
AP-ES-11-23-04 1044EST
its over stop posting dumbass