Am I wrong in thinking Amare doesn't have the same Spring he used to?

I remember watching him get off the ground before and be amazed...

I dont think he gets AS high or gets HIGH as fast as he used to...

Anyone else think this way or am I crazy...

I also havent seen a CONSISTENT midrange jumper from him this year... It's better than it used to be, but he's no Karl Malone out there...

I think he is slightly less imposing as a physical force this year...

yes you're wrong he's back to 100%

Thanks for that well thought out reply...

He certainly is a testament to the progress that has been made in microfracture surgery...

He is by no means limited in movement like Chris Webber is...

But, he still isnt the Old Amare... still 90% of the old Amare is more athletic than 97% of the bigmen in the league...

90-95% of 2005 Amare

I agree that he's not as springy as '05 but I think he has a more complete game now.

Two years ago, if Duncan was holding him down with one hand when Amare took off(as Duncan usually does), Amare could jump through it and dunk anyway. I don't think Amare can do that anymore.

Amare is still a decent enough athlete, though. I'm sure he's looking forward to Sunday's game.

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Originally Posted by PhxDog

Two years ago, if Duncan was holding him down with one hand when Amare took off(as Duncan usually does), Amare could jump through it and dunk anyway. I don't think Amare can do that anymore.

Amare is still a decent enough athlete, though. I'm sure he's looking forward to Sunday's game.

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Learning smack from the Mavs fans?

yea amare is def not the same jumper he was 2 years ago as in high or quick. even just 2 weeks ago a bunch of us suns fans that were in a chat room watching a game were saying how he just isnt the same leaper he used to be.

amare himself said he still has about 4 inches to put on his vert still.

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Originally Posted by Ed Helicopter Jones

Learning smack from the Mavs fans?

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I just watch the games, that's all.

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Originally Posted by sunsbum

yea amare is def not the same jumper he was 2 years ago as in high or quick. even just 2 weeks ago a bunch of us suns fans that were in a chat room watching a game were saying how he just isnt the same leaper he used to be.

amare himself said he still has about 4 inches to put on his vert still.

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He'll never get that same spring back that he had. That surgery is just too harsh on the knee to ever totally be the same.

A fair, or make that an unfair amount of the FTAs he is recieving is whack.

Joey Crawfords cousins better not continue to screw Duncan v Amare. :ihit :ihit

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Originally Posted by sunsbum

yea amare is def not the same jumper he was 2 years ago as in high or quick. even just 2 weeks ago a bunch of us suns fans that were in a chat room watching a game were saying how he just isnt the same leaper he used to be.

amare himself said he still has about 4 inches to put on his vert still.

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He was still getting up plenty high against the Lakers Gaggle O'Scrubs

Amare is one of my favorite non-Lakers, he has some serious game.

his defense is infinitely worse (not that it was great to begin with)

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Originally Posted by PhxDog

I just watch the games, that's all.

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So you see the holding and hacking Thomas and Amare do on Duncan then?

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Originally Posted by Fabbs

A fair, or make that an unfair amount of the FTAs he is recieving is whack.

Joey Crawfords cousins better not continue to screw Duncan v Amare. :ihit :ihit

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Series hasn't even started and already complaining/worried about the officiating. :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by picnroll

So you see the holding and hacking Thomas and Amare do on Duncan then?

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Thomas? Yes, I do.

Of course, KT is one of the most foul-prone players in the history of the league, while Duncan averaged two fouls a game in the last series...if I didn't know better, I would guess the 'Joey Crawford effect' was already at work.

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Originally Posted by mabber

Series hasn't even started and already complaining/worried about the officiating. :rolleyes

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Mabber, aganst a very physical Denver team Spurs have the lowest FT% taken of all temas in the first round. Do you expect that to be a continuing trend for the Spurs?

I don't think he is the same athlete as he was before, but he is still very good. He can still produce big numbers so I don't think it will matter this series. He dropped like 40 every night against the Spurs in '05 and it still didn't matter.

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Originally Posted by PhxDog

Thomas? Yes, I do.

Of course, KT is one of the most foul-prone players in the history of the league, while Duncan averaged two fouls a game in the last series...if I didn't know better, I would guess the 'Joey Crawford effect' was already at work.

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Want to guess how many times Duncan went to the FT line?

Amare has lost a step, but offensively has a better jump shot (still not very good). I think the real question is whether Duncan is healthier and better than '05 - in '05 he had two sprained ankles throughout the playoffs.

Yeah, the refs let the Nuggets hammer TD without many calls. It wasn't just on Duncan, Anthony pushed off constantly for 5 games.

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Originally Posted by picnroll

Want to guess how many times Duncan went to the FT line?

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More times than he wanted to?


He drew enough fouls to take Nene out of the last two games of the series, certainly, including a few that left me scratching my head.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Blackistone

Amare has lost a step, but offensively has a better jump shot (still not very good). I think the real question is whether Duncan is healthier and better than '05 - in '05 he had two sprained ankles throughout the playoffs.

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id have to disagree with you on that, amares shot was at its peak right before he had the surgery. he was almost automatic from 15 in. he seems to be getting his jumper back but its still not where it was pre knee problems.

i think alot of people, esp you guys who dont watch the suns, dont really realize how much explosiveness amare has lost. if you go on youtube and watch some highlights from two years ago, its like night and day from the old amare to todays version.

his spins where tighter, he could drive around ANYONE. he pretty much cant blow by people anymore.

i dont think he will ever be 100% again but i do think NEXT year we will be as close to the old amare as youre going to get.

He isn't quite the athletic freak he was but he is close.

He still has a nice touch around the basket and can finish even if he doesn't dunk.

yea I think he is not as dominant as he used to be...but dont get me wrong this guy is a helluva athlete still...Id say he is about 85%-90% of 2005 Amare...he raped us in that series, but I dont think he will be as dominant this time...I think the guys to worry about are Marion and Barbosa...well and of course the reigning mvp...but either way this is gonna be a great series for basketball fans

It all starts with Nash. If you make Nash work for everything and constantly challenge his passing lanes - the Suns offense will sputter. The Spurs did a great job of that the last meeting in the regular season, but can they do that consistently for 4 wins? I'd probably say yes.

While Amare has lost some leap, I think he has made up for by making quicker decisions and not solely relying on his own athleticism to win games. Just last night watching him blow by Turiaf in the 4th made me nervous.

I still say Spurs in 7.

Amare isn't as athletic but he's a better basketball player now.

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Originally Posted by Kevin Blackistone

Amare has lost a step, but offensively has a better jump shot (still not very good). I think the real question is whether Duncan is healthier and better than '05 - in '05 he had two sprained ankles throughout the playoffs.

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Well he had like 3 sprains on one foot (one severe) before going into playoffs and 1 sprain on the other foot the last game before the Suns series. He still owned the Suns!

The kid still has very few fundamentals...

He relies on athleticism alone to get him to the rim...

I only saw him play the Spurs once this season and he had 20-something points and 20-something rebounds-- spring or not. He is a better all-around player than 2 years ago.

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Originally Posted by monosylab1k

his defense is infinitely worse (not that it was great to begin with)

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I agree, he's better, but DAMN did you see him trying to match up on Duncan this year? I've never seen an all-star look so baffled as to how to guard someone. He looked like a high schooler.

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Originally Posted by Extra Stout

90-95% of 2005 Amare

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Straight-line quickness: 90-95%
Lateral quickness: 80-85%
Vertical leap: 75-85%
Secondary leaps: 60-70%

He's still very good, and improving, but, save for his straight-line quickness, he's not near the athlete he once was.

Laterally, he gets caught under the basket too much on both ends. Not near as quick with moves as he once was.

Vertically, he's easily missing six-to-ten inches on his lift. Easily. Plus, he seems to have to generate upward thrust now, where the 2005 Amare was a spring. He could bounce as high off one leg as off two and could do so as quickly as just about anyone.

I'd say he's very average in secondary leaps. If he skies for an offensive rebound, he generally has to stop and gather himself before attempting to go back up strong. Even then, it's still sometimes pretty average.

This is just his physical skills. He's much improved in every other area, however, and just because his springs are gone, won't mean he still can't be a menacing force in the paint, though, mainly on the offensive end.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

I agree, he's better, but DAMN did you see him trying to match up on Duncan this year? I've never seen an all-star look so baffled as to how to guard someone. He looked like a high schooler.

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i have, way back in the year 2005 when amare torched TD for 37ppg, wether it was planned or not...no player is going to LET some guy score 30+ ppg on em.

Amare is the most overrated player in the playoffs

He still cant play man defense worth a shit

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Originally Posted by nkdlunch

Amare is the most overrated player in the playoffs

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and yet youd trade half your team to have him
:downspin:

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Originally Posted by nkdlunch

Amare is the most overrated player in the playoffs

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Amare being overrated is the most overrated stance on this message board.

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Originally Posted by sunsbum

i have, way back in the year 2005 when amare torched TD for 37ppg, wether it was planned or not...no player is going to LET some guy score 30+ ppg on em.

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It wasnt like all those points were scored strictly on Timmy. That was the game plan that series, let Amare get his while no one else did shit. They won 1 game, 1, that speaks volumes

he's better than fabricio....




























on offense...

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Originally Posted by mardigan

It wasnt like all those points were scored strictly on Timmy. That was the game plan that series, let Amare get his while no one else did shit. They won 1 game, 1, that speaks volumes

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i know where youre comming from and i know what youre saying...but theres not many players in this league....especially against the spurs int defense that are good enough to put up those type of numbers, regardless if its a gameplan or not.

The Spurs did allow Amare to score at will. It was their strategy to have Nash dump the ball down low to basically make the Suns one-dimensional.

It worked perfectly.

The stats are misleading.

The fact remains that the Suns have even less of an interior presence this year than they did in 2005 because of his lack of lateral quickness and spring... they dont have any shotblocker, and Amare will allow himself to be screened out on every one of our guard's penetrations...

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Originally Posted by Sec24Row7

The fact remains that the Suns have even less of an interior presence this year than they did in 2005 because of his lack of lateral quickness and spring... they dont have any shotblocker, and Amare will allow himself to be screened out on every one of our guard's penetrations...

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again another spurs fan that has no clue what they are talking about. 2007 amare + kurt thomas >>>>> 2005 amare and steven hunter.

amare was a beast before he got hurt. at times he could just be completely unstoppable. he's taken a big step down this year.

Amare and Kurt Thomas are not a serviceable interior on the defensive end...

sorry

Your team is scary... but that isn't one of the reasons.

(Denver), Dallas, Detroit, Chicago, Utah, and Houston of the teams remaining all have scarier post defenders and shotblockers...

Kurt Thomas is nothing more than 6 free personal fouls for Phoenix. Amare, is a beast....at pushups.

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Originally Posted by nkdlunch

Kurt Thomas is nothing more than 6 free personal fouls for Phoenix. Amare, is a beast....at pushups.

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my my you are so clever.

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Originally Posted by sunsbum

i have, way back in the year 2005 when amare torched TD for 37ppg, wether it was planned or not...no player is going to LET some guy score 30+ ppg on em.

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Yeaaaaaaah.... who won that series, again? With their best player on two bad ankles?

You better hope Amare shows that again, because if he doesn't Duncan will have a nice little blockfest in the post now that he's healthy.

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Originally Posted by Cry Havoc

Yeaaaaaaah.... who won that series, again? With their best player on two bad ankles?

You better hope Amare shows that again, because if he doesn't Duncan will have a nice little blockfest in the post now that he's healthy.

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right two bad ankles, like the marion with the bad wrist, and jj comming of serious face surgery 2 weeks previous. nothing like that right?

Um, wow. The consensus among the Suns is Amare has his full vertical back, and maybe a little more. He caught an errant pass from Marion Wednesday night that put Amare's wrist above the backboard. And he caught it. What Amare is missing is his lateral quickness. Every now and then he shows glimpses, but it's not quite the same. He's still quicker from a dead stop than most everyone at his position in the NBA, and given his strength and his uber soft hands, a matchup nightmare for every 4 or 5 on the planet.

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Amare and Kurt Thomas are not a serviceable interior on the defensive end...

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Amare is much improved, but he's still a ways away in learning how to keep his feet and not bite on the fake. Gosh, he's foul prone, which really throws a wrench in the Suns' game plan.

Given KT's previous success against Tim Duncan, I'm surprised to hear a Spurs fan think sow lowly of Thomas.

Gaddabout, there's no way you can convince anyone who's watched 2005 Amare and the new 2007 Amare that he has his full vertical.

He's easily lost 6-to-10 inches of lift. It's why you see so many layin attempts now rather than dunks. he can't get the upward thrust to dunk on opposing centers anymore. Maybe around them if he has enough space, but not on them.

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Originally Posted by JMarkJohns

He's easily lost 6-to-10 inches of lift. It's why you see so many layin attempts now rather than dunks. he can't get the upward thrust to dunk on opposing centers anymore. Maybe around them if he has enough space, but not on them.

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Amare is 6-foot-10. If he were missing 6-to-10 inches in his vertical, he shot would be blocked by any average 7-footer. I think people are misinterpreting Amare's developing low-post game, in which he is showing remarkable body control and coordination in hitting more difficult shots. He still had over 20 dunks in 5 games against the Lakers, half of them challenged by Kwame Brown, so it's not like he's throwing up bunnies in the jungle trees.

If he had a 36" vert before the knee surgery, at worst he's at 33" to 34", and at times he appears to have full extension (as I mentioned in the errant pass he corralled from Marion in Wednesday's game).

I'm sorry, but he's not anywhere near what he once was. I'd sy it's much closer to 28" to 30" vertical now. Maybe every once in a while in transition he can muster up enough lift to harken back to the Amare of 2005. But overall actual game lift is certainly lacking. Like I said, much of his quickness has returned, but his vert is, at best about 80-to-85% of what it once was, and I believe it to be closer to 75-to-80%

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Originally Posted by sunsbum

id have to disagree with you on that, amares shot was at its peak right before he had the surgery. he was almost automatic from 15 in. he seems to be getting his jumper back but its still not where it was pre knee problems.

i think alot of people, esp you guys who dont watch the suns, dont really realize how much explosiveness amare has lost. if you go on youtube and watch some highlights from two years ago, its like night and day from the old amare to todays version.

his spins where tighter, he could drive around ANYONE. he pretty much cant blow by people anymore.

i dont think he will ever be 100% again but i do think NEXT year we will be as close to the old amare as youre going to get.

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I agree with this guy. Amare is still very athletic by league standards, but he was David Robinsonesque before he got injured. He was in that tier above Dwight Howard all by himself.

It is a complete shame when players like Amare and Baron lose their unbelievable explosiveness.

It makes you realize how great they were to still be awesome after the surgery.

Amare's decline in mobitlity/explosiveness coupled with Duncan's return to health will make him a non-factor I believe. The Suns chances will rest on Kurt Thomas being able to at least slow Tim down and the improvement in Barbosa's game. Marion has never really been a factor when Bowen guards him.

The head of the snake for Phoenix is and has always been Nash. If Tony can guard him like he did Iverson then I like our chances. If he can't then it's going to be a long series that could go either way.

Regardless, it's going to be some excellent basketball and a series for the ages.

2005 Amare never came close to pulling down 20 rebounds in a PO game. That's better than the one who can put up 37 in a losing effort.

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Originally Posted by TwoHandJam

Amare's decline in mobitlity/explosiveness coupled with Duncan's return to health will make him a non-factor I believe. The Suns chances will rest on Kurt Thomas being able to at least slow Tim down and the improvement in Barbosa's game. Marion has never really been a factor when Bowen guards him.

The head of the snake for Phoenix is and has always been Nash. If Tony can guard him like he did Iverson then I like our chances. If he can't then it's going to be a long series that could go either way.

Regardless, it's going to be some excellent basketball and a series for the ages.

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Yeah, Amare is going to be a non-factor :rolleyes

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Originally Posted by mabber

Yeah, Amare is going to be a non-factor :rolleyes

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Lots of Lakers fans said the same thing, believe it or not. They were saying that Kwame Brown and Ronny Turiaf were going to contain Amare, and that the Suns were actually better off last year when they had Tim Thomas.

My guess is, a lot of fans don't follow the league, only their team. They wrote off Amare after his injury, and they won't believe he's back until reality delivers that smack.

He seems to have more upper body strength and to command more presence. As far as vertical jump he can't be more than 4 or 5 inches under 2005. On the other hand I'd rather he be thought of by the Spurs as competing at 80% and less intimidating. They may be unpleasantly surprised at the "Playoff" Amare.

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Originally Posted by UV Ray

He seems to have more upper body strength and to command more presence.

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Yeah I remember reading that your strength and conditioning coach focused more on his upper body strength to alleviate stress on his knees and lower body.

What makes Amare "only 80%" isn't his physical deficiencies... it's all in his mind. When he wants to play at 100%, he does.... that's why he would put up crap games against the Knicks and then go off with 12 straight buckets during a pivotal stretch in the 2OT game against Dallas. There's no way there can be that much physically wrong with him when he's the only Sun who played in all 82 games this season, which is a year removed from his double surgery.

There are times I've sat around and been like, "Man, he just doesn't have the lift anymore" and then he goes and grabs 20+ boards against the Spurs and has a pretty monster game back in February. Lastly, he sucked at the beginning of the year and didn't really take off until D'Antoni put him in the starting line-up. He loves the spotlight, loves going against the Spurs, and the only thing limiting him out there is his will, desire, and dedication to any semblance of defense.

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Originally Posted by THE SIXTH MAN

Yeah I remember reading that your strength and conditioning coach focused more on his upper body strength to alleviate stress on his knees and lower body.

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Yeah...I may be wrong but he does seem a little bulkier in the shoulders and upper arms. Though I'm not sure if his overall weight has increased. I'm looking forward to a great series.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

What makes Amare "only 80%" isn't his physical deficiencies... it's all in his mind. When he wants to play at 100%, he does.... that's why he would put up crap games against the Knicks and then go off with 12 straight buckets during a pivotal stretch in the 2OT game against Dallas. There's no way there can be that much physically wrong with him when he's the only Sun who played in all 82 games this season, which is a year removed from his double surgery.

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I don't know Ron, my brother had knee surgery 2 1/2 years ago and he says he's still feeling it. He used to be an advanced skier and I can't even get him on the lift now.

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Originally Posted by UV Ray

I don't know Ron, my brother had knee surgery 2 1/2 years ago and he says he's still feeling it. He used to be an advanced skier and I can't even get him on the lift now.

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Did your brother enter the NBA at 19 yrs old and then average 37 points against a first-team All-Defensive player 2 yrs later?

My knees hurt from when I injured them in high school playing ball and I'm only 23, but I also don't stretch like I should, ice them down properly, work out my thigh muscles to take the load off them, and I wear some older shoes from time to time... Aaron Nelson is one of the best trainers in the biz and Amare has the best service money can buy - not to mention the physical specimen he is. No knock on your brother, but Amare is quite the athletic anomaly.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

My knees hurt from when I injured them in high school playing ball and I'm only 23, but I also don't stretch like I should, ice them down properly, work out my thigh muscles to take the load off them, and I wear some older shoes from time to time... Aaron Nelson is one of the best trainers in the biz and Amare has the best service money can buy - not to mention the physical specimen he is. No knock on your brother, but Amare is quite the athletic anomaly.

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Not to be sarcastic, but if Amare was a thoroughbred they would have shot him by now. So I'm not sure that being athletically superior necessarily equates to improved recovery time. I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is different.

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Originally Posted by UV Ray

Not to be sarcastic, but if Amare was a thoroughbred they would have shot him by now. So I'm not sure that being athletically superior necessarily equates to improved recovery time. I guess what I'm saying is that everyone is different.

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That's really not true at all, despite your sarcasm. They spent millions of dollars and manhours trying to save Barbaro (who is a thoroughbred) and people even wrote him "Get Well Soon" letters as if he could read. What was one of the main reasons they wanted to keep him alive? Because they were gonna use him for breeding because he HAS SUPERIOR GENES and it would be a travesty to waste him or that sperm.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

That's really not true at all, despite your sarcasm. They spent millions of dollars and manhours trying to save Barbaro (who is a thoroughbred) and people even wrote him "Get Well Soon" letters as if he could read. What was one of the main reasons they wanted to keep him alive? Because they were gonna use him for breeding because he HAS SUPERIOR GENES and it would be a travesty to waste him or that sperm.

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Uh...ok... On that note, I think I'll pass.

Spurs fans--don't underestimate Amare Stoudemire. You can underestimate any other player on the Suns, but don't underestimate Amare. He's going to show up big, because he loves the playoffs, he loves playing the Spurs, and he loves winning. Amare's going to have a great series, offensively and defensively...it's the rest of the Suns that I'm worried about.

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Originally Posted by UV Ray

He seems to have more upper body strength and to command more presence. As far as vertical jump he can't be more than 4 or 5 inches under 2005. On the other hand I'd rather he be thought of by the Spurs as competing at 80% and less intimidating. They may be unpleasantly surprised at the "Playoff" Amare.

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The Spurs players and coaches will not underestimate Amare, it's just some of their fans. The Spurs front line is going to have it's hands full containing him. Of course, the Suns will have their hands full with Duncan as well.

We'll do the same before--

Let Amare get his 40 points;

shut down everyone else;

same result;

Spurs in 5

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Originally Posted by mabber

Yeah, Amare is going to be a non-factor :rolleyes

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You misunderstand. Amare is going to be a non-factor not because he won't get his points but because he and Tim with cancel each other out on either side of the equation.

The matchups to look for in this series are KT-Duncan, Parker-Nash and Barbosa-Manu.

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Originally Posted by mabber

The Spurs players and coaches will not underestimate Amare, it's just some of their fans. The Spurs front line is going to have it's hands full containing him. Of course, the Suns will have their hands full with Duncan as well.

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Now you're thinking it through a bit more....

I'm not dismissive of the Suns at all... they are scary, but you cant prove to me because of recent playoff success that they will eliminate the spurs in a 7 game series.

The media acts like Amare is going to go for 30 and 20 in every game...

If that happens, the suns probably win, but I dont think he is capable of doing that...

He might have 2 games like that this series and the Suns probably win those games because rebounds = points for not just him, but kickout 3's that are hard to guard as well...

People look at Amare's numbers alone and go.. well he's so close to duncan... He's right there...

Amare is not even in Duncan's shadow.

Points and Rebounds are great, but there are several 20 pt 10 reb guys in the league (Amare isnt one by .2 reb).

Duncan is light years ahead of all of them because of his ability to read defenses, pass out of double teams, and make plays.

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Originally Posted by Gaddabout

Amare is 6-foot-10.

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Small point of contention. Only place Amare is 6'10" is in the press guide. Duncan is really 6'10" Amare? 6'8" tops.

Duncan is 7'0....

6'11"

Hmmm guess you'll find out in less than 36 hours how much "spring" Amare has left. Amare LOOMS my poor misguided friend

Amare is 6'8"1/2 without shoes, 6'10" with shoes.

6'5", 6'9" with the afro.

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Originally Posted by picnroll

Small point of contention. Only place Amare is 6'10" is in the press guide. Duncan is really 6'10" Amare? 6'8" tops.

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When everyone is given 1.5 to 2 inches in the press guide, I just go by the press guide. As if Barkley were ever 6-6 in his most charitable dreams. He was 6-4.5 in shoes. He might have had a 6'-6" waist about two years ago. And he might have consumed a 6'-6" sub sandwich as recently as last year. His head may measure, in fact, 6'-6" in diameter, but that's why he earned the nickname "Milk Dud Head" in college.