Spurs vs. Suns Game 4 - Grades

timvp rant
I have never been as pissed off at, disappointed in, ashamed of or disenchanted by the Spurs as I am right now. That was simply a pitiful performance. Pitiful. The Suns were ready to roll over and die numerous times throughout the game. The Spurs showed absolutely no killer instinct and kept fvcking around until they managed to choke that game off Maverick style. It was just disgusting how many opportunities they had to seal the game. This is the second time this series the Spurs have shown no killer instinct and it could have very well have ended their run. It's just a shame that a team so good hasn't shown the will or the heart needed in two games out of four. Just a shame.
Grade: B+

Tim Duncan
Duncan came down off of his all-world status in Game 4. He was still solid overall, but far from his Game 3 performance. In Game 3 he finished without a turnover. In Game 4 he had six costly turnovers. He was plagued by foul trouble and that took him out of his rhythm completely in the fourth quarter.
Grade: B-


Manu Ginobili
I guess Ginobili was just making a cameo appearance in Game 3. This game, he was back to struggling. The Spurs' second best playoff player can't be going 3-for-14 in huge playoff games. To his credit, he was at times aggressive and tried to fight through his struggles. He just didn't have it.
Grade: C-


Tony Parker
Parker led the team in scoring and assists (23 and 7) but his decision making in the fourth quarter could be called into question. He was trying to take over the game himself offensively, which given the circumstances of Ginobili struggling and Duncan in foul trouble could have been the right idea. But more times than not he led empty drives when the Spurs needed it the most.
Grade: C


Bruce Bowen
At times, Bowen's defense was very good. At other times, it was downright horrid. He made perhaps the worst defensive decision of his career in the third quarter when he left Raja Bell open in the corner to double team on a driving Kurt Thomas. Thomas found Bell with one on the shot clock and Bell buried a three. It was a horrible decision and Pop pulled him right away.
Grade: D+


Francisco Elson
Elson came off the bench and looked a little more comfortable than usual. He had a dunk, rebound and a steal in five minutes.
Grade: B+


Michael Finley
Finley was the only Spur to hit big shots in the fourth quarter. He hit a couple threes in the final stanza to keep the Spurs up. But it wasn't enough to prevent the pending collapse. On the other hand, Finley forced a lot of shots early that were unnecessary. He also missed a big jumper late in the game.
Grade: C+


Brent Barry
Barry played a second consecutive quality game. He led the Spurs in +/- for the second game in a row (+8). He's shown great determination and smarts and should have earned even more minutes in upcoming games. He had nothing to do with this loss.
Grade: A-


Fabricio Oberto
Oberto got his first start of the playoffs and played decent. He had some good moments and some crafty play. His defense wasn't spectacular, but he did an okay job on that end of the court. It was a pretty steady game from Oberto.
Grade: B


Robert Horry
Horry led the Spurs in the first half with four assists. He was being his typical smart self ... until he leveled Steve Nash at the end of the game. That was a horribly classless play that was uncalled for. That's not what the Spurs are about.
Grade: F


Jacque Vaughn
Vaughn hit his first two jumpers. That probably turned out to be a bad thing for the Spurs. It made Vaughn more aggressive and an aggressive Vaughn is a bad Vaughn. He's just not talented enough to do anything other than bring up the ball and pass it to someone else in the playoffs.
Grade: C


Pop
Horrible. Even if the Spurs won this game, it would have still been a horribly coached game by Pop. The magic touch he seemed to have in Game 3 was gone in Game 4. He would put Vaughn in the game at the exact wrong times and that would lead to runs by the Suns. But my major beefs with Pop come in the fourth quarter. When Duncan picks up his fifth foul, no way you sit him as long as Pop sat him. By doing so, Pop let the Suns get right back in the game and took Duncan out of any rhythm he might have had. What Pop should have done is put Duncan in the game and tell him to play his regular style. If he fouls out, he fouls out. You don't sit him until it's too late to regain momentum. On top of that, Pop had some horrid offensive ideas in the fourth. Calling plays for Finley and Ginobili late in the fourth? Did he forget that Duncan was on the court? Did he forget that Ginobili had been struggling all night? The cherry on top was wasting all his timeouts ... especially the last one. When you go down three with 30 something seconds to go and you only have one timeout, you NEVER take it at that point. You save that timeout until you need it the most. Taking the timeout at the point that they did essentially ended the game. In about ever way a coach can F up, Pop F'ed up.
Grade: F

This is what I've been waiting for... dead on!

Spot on once again...

Well said professor!!!

Pops pooped tonight!

Agreed. Poor execution and shot selection killed them in the 4th. I'm not sure why they ever switch Parker off Nash. Jacque Vaughn should never have a heat check. Ever. The Bonner and Elson lineup hustled their asses off. Plays coming off timeouts were terrible. I don't recall a single one that resulted in points or even a good shot.

Holy shit, criticism of Pop :wow

The bonehead decision of the game by Pop was calling a timeout when we were up 5 with momentum, substituting Vaughn for Parker, and watching Marion grab an easy steal from Vaughn and all momentum from the Spurs. :pctoss

The only thing that topped that was taking a timeout and then running a Michael Finley fadeaway jumper out of the timeout. Give me a fucking break.

damn we need a solid backup point

manu deserves a fucking f
he made one layup all night
tp made some big plays late
did hit finely for those big threes
made his free throws in the fourth
HAD 6 REBOUNDS
I give him a b- or a c+




I give duncan a d
he only had 21 points and 6 turnovers
HE SUCKED ASS

This just made me realize how mad I really am.

Agree totally, especially Pop's grade.


I actually would upgrade Vaughn's grade because he made a couple of baskets. I've never seen him do that.

1995 the Spurs weren't ready yet. They still had some growing to do.

2001 was an annihilation by a far superior team.

2004 was a team in transition that got beat by a lucky shot.

2006 was tainted by the refs.

2007 is a got damn shame. :pctoss

The only one i disagree with is Parkers grade. It should be at least a B. His defense on both Nash and especially Barb (who has been a non factor so far) is great.

Pop is to blame on this. Thats why i created that thread stating the rotation should be shortened. Take Vaughn and limit Bowens minutes would make a huge difference. Parker IMO is guarding Nash better especially on the pick and rolls.

Pops timeout in the third when they were rolling was stupid. He was over coaching, hence why we had no timeouts at then end.

I think Horry will get an A+ for his superman defense on Diaw and Amare for game 5.

Book it.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Holy shit, criticism of Pop :wow

The bonehead decision of the game by Pop was calling a timeout when we were up 5 with momentum, substituting Vaughn for Parker, and watching Marion grab an easy steal from Vaughn and all momentum from the Spurs. :pctoss

The only thing that topped that was taking a timeout and then running a Michael Finley fadeaway jumper out of the timeout. Give me a fucking break.

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Truth

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Originally Posted by joeyjfive

This just made me realize how mad I really am.

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timvp is super mad. This is about the most mad I've seen him at the Spurs since we've been married :lol

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

timvp is super mad. This is about the most mad I've seen him at the Spurs since we've been married :lol

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But I haven't said anything :madrun

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Originally Posted by Kori Ellis

timvp is super mad. This is about the most mad I've seen him at the Spurs since we've been married :lol

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why be mad at the spurs. they were aggessive afterall :lol

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Originally Posted by timvp

1995 the Spurs weren't ready yet. They still had some growing to do.

2001 was an annihilation by a far superior team.

2004 was a team in transition that got beat by a lucky shot.

2006 was tainted by the refs.

2007 is a got damn shame. :pctoss

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2007 title :drunk

I don't know if you saw in the other thread where I talked about the third quarter. It looked like the Spurs could put the Suns away- defense was good- shots were falling- but when the dust cleared and the third quarter was over, the Spurs had only outscored the Suns by 3 and the lead was in single digits. I thought that was a bad sign.

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Originally Posted by ploto

I don't know if you saw in the other thread where I talked about the third quarter. It looked like the Spurs could put the Suns away- defense was good- shots were falling- but when the dust cleared and the third quarter was over, the Spurs had only outscored the Suns by 3 and the lead was in single digits. I thought that was a bad sign.

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Exactly.

The Suns were sitting there dead ready to be buried. Nash was frustrated and their entire team was playing like crap. Instead of burying them, the Spurs lacked concentration, effort and coaching smarts and managed to let the Suns hang in long enough to find a way to choke it away.

Sick.

Jacque Vaughn scared me for a few mins when he was making those shots... and then he let it get to his head. Spot on about Parker - he really made some plays (or didn't make the right plays) that let the Suns get back in the game in the 4th.

Also, well noted that Horry made a classess move from a guy that makes his living off being level-headed, consistent, playful, and clutch in the playoffs. If you read the other threads in this board, he simply "broke a rule" and "Nash's small stature made the foul seem worse than it was."

Fuck.. I haven't even watched the game (Hope to watch it tonight) as I have been working..

Damn.. now I am so totally devastated..

Spurs were shooting lights out in the 3rd and it looked like the Suns would fold as they have in the past... I think you have to say there was a good combo of Spurs mistakes and the Suns finally digging deep instead of falling over.

Oh and I'm sick of stupid azz Spurs fans getting overconfident after every win. Somehow this season, it's like the Spurs take on the thought process of their fans.

When the fans are acting over confident and start looking ahead, the Spurs this season ALWAYS have a letdown. The crowd sucked at the game. Spurs fans have sucked in general showing no respect for the Suns. This Suns are done, Suns are wilting, Suns are soft crap manages to seep into the Spurs themselves and they play like with no heart like we saw.

:pctoss

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Originally Posted by gilmor

Fuck.. I haven't even watched the game (Hope to watch it tonight) as I have been working..

Damn.. now I am so totally devastated..

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You jumped the gun and came to the msg board didn't you? Couldn't stay away and now you've just made your night worse, huh?

It's ok - I've been there before too.

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Francisco Elson
Elson came off the bench and looked a little more comfortable than usual. He had a dunk, rebound and a steal in five minutes.
Grade: B+

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if our center plays half or a little bit of AK47 or Rasheed we won't be in a dilemma right now :oops Duncan is in foul trouble bec he has to take good care of Amare and the scoring as well. Elson can't even contribute and help in rebounds dept:cry

its tied two two.

Quit the bitching.

Last year we had a worse of a chance to win it.

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Originally Posted by RonMexico

Jacque Vaughn scared me for a few mins when he was making those shots... and then he let it get to his head. Spot on about Parker - he really made some plays (or didn't make the right plays) that let the Suns get back in the game in the 4th.

Also, well noted that Horry made a classess move from a guy that makes his living off being level-headed, consistent, playful, and clutch in the playoffs. If you read the other threads in this board, he simply "broke a rule" and "Nash's small stature made the foul seem worse than it was."

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Horry hit Nash too hard because the refs didn't call the attempt by Manu to touch foul him in an obvious fouling situation. Failing to call the touch foul was the only really bad decision by the refs in the game IMO. Nash, for reasons that remain a total fucking mystery in that situation, flailed to accentuate the already hard contact and pinballed into the table. It was bad juju all around, and will probably end up marring what should have ended up a pretty good series.

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Originally Posted by gtownspur

its tied two two.

Quit the bitching.

Last year we had a worse of a chance to win it.

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The point is winning. This series could easily be over. Now they play a best of three series with two games in Phoenix.

If they lose the series, it'll be a shame of epic proportions.

All excellent points, although actually I had almost forgotten Elson played. I agree completely with the points made about Barry, Vaughn, Horry, and Pop in particular. I had forgotten about the timeout situation but that was definitely a huge mistake. I also hated that Finley fadeaway.

It was very dispiriting to see the team play so poorly down the stretch.

Mostly agree with the grades. Think maybe Barry deserved another A+, or at least an A. Once again as soon as he entered the game the Spurs offense started firing on all cylinders and put up some nice runs. He hit a couple of big shots, was very active on the defensive end and looked as comfortable on the floor as I've seen him in a long time with the Spurs. It's just too bad the Spurs seem to have a hard time squeezing in minutes for him since this is his series. The Spurs should consider running the offense through him for (more/longer) stretches. His motion offensive style just absolutely picks the Suns apart.

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Originally Posted by timvp

The point is winning. This series could easily be over. Now they play a best of three series with two games in Phoenix.

If they lose the series, it'll be a shame of epic proportions.

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Yep. This will be the year of missed opportunities. It was all there served up for them and they choked it away.

Funny that the discussion today was of everyone so gleeful over the "dirty" label rather than the "soft" label. Looks like they were a bit of both today.

i definitely agree that pop shouldn't put tim on the bench with his 5th foul

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Originally Posted by timvp

Oh and I'm sick of stupid azz Spurs fans getting overconfident after every win. Somehow this season, it's like the Spurs take on the thought process of their fans.

When the fans are acting over confident and start looking ahead, the Spurs this season ALWAYS have a letdown. The crowd sucked at the game. Spurs fans have sucked in general showing no respect for the Suns. This Suns are done, Suns are wilting, Suns are soft crap manages to seep into the Spurs themselves and they play like with no heart like we saw.

:pctoss

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the fans shld have been give an A for wearing a dab of black under their left eyes in support of Ginobili in game 4 :lol

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Horry hit Nash too hard because the refs didn't call the attempt by Manu to touch foul him in an obvious fouling situation. Failing to call the touch foul was the only really bad decision by the refs in the game IMO. Nash, for reasons that remain a total fucking mystery in that situation, flailed to accentuate the already hard contact and pinballed into the table. It was bad juju all around, and will probably end up marring what should have ended up a pretty good series.

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I don't know if he flailed that much... For his thin frame, Horry is probably built pretty well when you hit him running at a good rate of speed.

I thought it was Finley who tried to get the touch foul, not Manu, but I could be wrong. I was already upset about that non-call because I was waiting for Bennett Salvatore to come out and call a jump ball on the sideline.

What about Nash going 2-4 on FTs too? Must have been a little woozy... (I hope).

What a stupid fucking play by Horry. He'll be suspended for game 5, and he deserves it. I'm really disappointed in the whole team's inability to do anything once Phoenix started running hard double teams at Duncan late. The Suns made plays when it counted, and the Spurs rolled over and died. If they come out like this Wednesday, we're going to see a repeat of game 2.

I think the double team on duncan surprised the spurs tonight
suns had not done that had not done it early
good move by the suns coaching staff

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Originally Posted by ducks

I think the double team on duncan surprised the spurs tonight
suns had not done that had not done it early
good move by the suns coaching staff

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Funny that Duncan wouldn't be expecting it, since it's been used to beat him in the past.

Duncan choked on the doubles because he got too used to being single covered. It was a good move by D'antoni because it worked.

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Horry hit Nash too hard because the refs didn't call the attempt by Manu to touch foul him in an obvious fouling situation. Failing to call the touch foul was the only really bad decision by the refs in the game IMO.

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How about Nash holding out two hands to block two spurs to free up a teammate for a shot? How about Nash flying into the hoop and Duncan doesn't touch him but gets called for a foul. How about Duncan getting called for charge on Nash. How about Raja hitting Oberto without a call. How about Raja's flops? How about Nash tripping overhimself and losing the Ball but Bowen gets called for a foul? How about Parker going to the rim a few times and gets contact without fouls? How about Barbosa going at Parker, then leaning in at 70 degrees to make sure his body hit Parker and Parker gets called for a foul? How about Nash running into Ginobilli, throwing him off balance, allowing Raja to go to the hoop for an easy layup (shifting momentum at the end). So many to list.... ohh yeah let's not forget the non calls when ppl guard Duncan.

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Originally Posted by Kobulingam

How about Nash holding out two hands to block two spurs to free up a teammate for a shot? How about Nash flying into the hoop and Duncan doesn't touch him but gets called for a foul. How about Duncan getting called for charge on Nash. How about Raja hitting Oberto without a call. How about Raja's flops? How about Nash tripping overhimself and losing the Ball but Bowen gets called for a foul? How about Parker going to the rim a few times and gets contact without fouls? How about Barbosa going at Parker, then leaning in at 70 degrees to make sure his body hit Parker and Parker gets called for a foul? How about Nash running into Ginobilli, throwing him off balance, allowing Raja to go to the hoop for an easy layup (shifting momentum at the end). So many to list.... ohh yeah let's not forget the non calls when ppl guard Duncan.

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Shut up you fucking pussy. Go root for the Mavs. Take that lame shit somewhere else. Theres a blogger who roots for the Suns somewhere. The two of you are made for each other.

Their complain works ,the Officials are stupid

We fucking had this game. I'm pissed too.

We have no X Factor.

I thought last year was disillusioning. Hard to feel optimistic after this game. Phoenix came out looking like a championship contender, while we gave up a lot of momentum, poise and class. This was one of the most depressing losses in recent memory.

If we fail in this series, we'll look on this as another example of how a title run can be derailed in a few moments.
Still shaking my head at Pop's decision making, which frankly showed rank incompetance. Un-freaking-believeable.

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Originally Posted by timvp

Oh and I'm sick of stupid azz Spurs fans getting overconfident after every win. Somehow this season, it's like the Spurs take on the thought process of their fans.

When the fans are acting over confident and start looking ahead, the Spurs this season ALWAYS have a letdown. The crowd sucked at the game. Spurs fans have sucked in general showing no respect for the Suns. This Suns are done, Suns are wilting, Suns are soft crap manages to seep into the Spurs themselves and they play like with no heart like we saw.

:pctoss

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Couldn't agree more!

The forum yesterday was out of control and I just had to stop reading it - the thread about the Jazz vs. Warriors was the one that made me leave the forum for the rest of the day.


This was one of the few games I got to watch live this season and you can imagine how glad I am that I woke up at 3 am to watch it! :madrun

If Kori says that she hasn't seen you this mad, I'm not going to argue with her, but believe me, people around me better watch out today I could easily bite off some heads as the day progress...

Just for the sake of discussion, why is the word "believe" bandied about while at the same time people bitch about overconfidence? It's not like the players are reading the message boards, and it's certainly not the fans' fault that the team chokes.

How was Beno tonight? TO and missed shots?

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Originally Posted by Obstructed_View

Just for the sake of discussion, why is the word "believe" bandied about while at the same time people bitch about overconfidence?

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Because there's a huge difference between believing your team can win and being overconfident that the opponent has no shot to win.

You took it easy on Pop...seriously, his substitutions were godawful.

Honestly, this was a failure by all the people that should have played good...

Pop
Duncan
Manu
Tony
Horry

That Finley missed(2) shots with less that 5 minutes to go did not surprise me in the slightest, like I said on the day we signed him, he's just good enough to be on the court to let you down when it matters most...

We became stupider than Dallas when they realized that and we didn't.


Tony, Manu, Tim and Finley all started playing selfish basketball at the end of the game, one on one, no ball movement, forcing shots up over multiple defenders(Manu and Tony were really bad about it).

Barry could have saved this game tonight without hitting a 3 just because he always looks for the open man...always....honestly, he's about the only guy on the team that consistently gets Duncan an easy basket. And I'm betting he got pulled for that no look to Duncan.

Tony and Manu , once they drive in crunch time in this series, they hardly ever pass out, and if they do it's usually a shitty pass.


Parker is just at Superstar level...but he's got to learn to not force it under the basket.



Oh and..for the love of god...why in the fuck is Bruce on Nash when he isn't coming close to stopping him?

Parker is doing a better job on Nash...we are wasting Bruce on him...it's not working in our favor, Nash starts playing better when Bruce gets on him.



Oh...and those refs fucked us...

*sigh*. I agree completely with timvp, this is the most let-down and mad I've been, ah well, thank god it just hit 6 PM, I can finally drink without feeling like an alkie.

But anyway, Pop messed up his rotation and substitution patterns. More than that, for a guy whose praised universally around the league for drawing up the best plays out of timeouts, that Finley fadeaway was damn pathetic. Their end-game plays were vanilla and showed a distinct lack of imagination.

Duncan was in foul trouble, granted, but by the time the Spurs needed him in the fourth quarter his rhythm was so off he couldn't come through for them.

I'll give credit to Ginobili for staying aggressive, and honestly, right at the end of the game he had a great shot at the rim, he just missed it. Parker tried his best to force the issue and carry the team.

The Suns did just enough to stay in the game and wait for the right moment to take the game. But, this was a Spurs loss, Nash was doing everything possible in the fourth to lose this game...turning the ball over twice on consecutive possessions (IIRC). Spurs didn't capitalize, didn't play with poise or mental toughness and just choked the game away. Ye gods, I need a drink. :drunk

Why doesn't Pop play Barry as a backup for Parker....??? Instead of letting Vaughn start Suns runs....

Manu F- - - - - - -

Im still too gotdamn pissed to make a comment.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Holy shit, criticism of Pop :wow

The bonehead decision of the game by Pop was calling a timeout when we were up 5 with momentum, substituting Vaughn for Parker, and watching Marion grab an easy steal from Vaughn and all momentum from the Spurs. :pctoss
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Weirdest substitution patterns Ive seen in a while, Even the timeouts he was calling were badly timed. Whats weird on that play is that he put parker back in like 40 secs later :wtf

Ginobili should take a large part of the blame. This is about the 5 or 6th consecutive game Ive seen the Spurs use Ginobili as their primary ballhandler and shot maker in the 4th and he has yet to deliver he had some costly to's and forced the issue...he deserves the F.

Im simply in shock over the Spurs. That's 2 seasons in a row they've lost to teams they are clearly better than due to choke jobs and an inability to execute during crunchtime. They were better than Dallas last season and couldn't get the job done and they're better than the Suns and there's no way they'll win this series now. They have the talent, it falls on Pop's bad execution and coaching in crunch time.

Barry should have receved bowen's playing time in the 4th when the suns were on their run and the SPurs couldn't get stops. Also, putting bowen on nash is a mistake, a stubborn one which may ultimately cost them. Bowen cannot slow down or stop nash throughout the game. no one can, stick parker on him let bowen help with the drives. bowen needs to help shut down other players...marion, diaw, bell, etc. It's a joke that Pop is going away from the game plan that helped him beat the Suns in 5 2 years ago.....

tony needs to do a better job running the offense after initial penetration is closed off. he should really be used to it by now. work the ball around and get a shot.

Just a forgettable, tragic 4th quarter. The only consolation is that the series is 2-2, where most thought it would be before it started. Obviously, its what went on between that matters, and that 4th quarter was atrocious. You got the feeling that the Spurs got nervous, gripped and were just trying to hold on. They left their brains in the third quarter, not mention their hearts.

One thing is for certain, tomorrow's game will be awesome, win or lose. The Phoenix fans will be rabid as well.

L.J. called out Spurs fans and I must admit it did seem awfully quiet at times. It seemed that before the game there was lots of cheering.

I think the worst part is losing in a classless way. If they had done it and just choked you could say ok, onto Game 5 maybe. But because of they way they played at the end, now the Suns have even more confidence that they're in the Spurs heads and the Spurs showed they have a weakness in executing and letting their emotions get in the way of close games. It happened countless times against the Mavs last season, yes the refs made bad calls, but you get up and play through it.

Spurs fans always wanted an "enforcer" to take a guy out...now that they're not labeled as soft and you got your wish, how many wish they were soft again?

Great game last night... :fro

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Originally Posted by leemajors

tony needs to do a better job running the offense after initial penetration is closed off. he should really be used to it by now. work the ball around and get a shot.

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Nonsense, he can be the hero, err zero, by going one on three two straight trips, early in the shot clock I might add, and come up with nothing but helping Phoenix seize control.

Last night illustrated two very succinct points about our Spurs:

1. For all the times Pop gets it right, and for all the criticism of guys like Manu, Finley, and Parker, Pop is just as responsible for our playoff failures as anyone else. His substitutions last night were horrid and contributed to noticeable momentum shifts (particularly in the 2nd and 3rd quarters when we had Phoenix on the ropes).

He should donate his paycheck to charity for drawing up a turnaround fadeaway jumper for Finley out of our last timeout, but then again I don't expect too much for him as far as x's and o's go - the guy just isn't that good at it.

Bowen hasn't been able to check Nash save the last 2-3 minutes of game 3. It's time Pop recognizes this, lets Parker stay in front of Nash with his speed, and sicks Bowen on one of Marion or Bell.

Bowen also needs called out for sagging off Raja to help with Thomas driving on Elson. WTF man?

The sad fact about Pop is that Larry Brown has rubbed off on him in that he has an overreliance upon veterans for the post-season, to the point he has marginalized any youth on the roster.

Which leads to guys like Finley choking away games for us when it matters.

2. We have no one on this team with a killer instinct. This is twice we've let Phoenix back in this series with them on the ropes. We let Dallas pull one out last year.

Duncan was looking like the dagger man here in this series, but then he flips out about some double teams tonight? Double teams? Gee Tim, never seen those before in your 10 year career. :rolleyes What a joke.

Not to delve into the I miss ______ whoever talk, but does anyone think this meltdown happens with Buckets still here?

He should still be a Spur (and captain clutch for us), but management was afraid to pay him 10 mil over 3 years, and instead went with the Larry Brown principle of getting veterans in - i.e., Barry and Finley.

And here we are, a couple of years later, and Buckets kills Dallas in the decisive game in the series while playing with a one legged point guard, meanwhile we get Finley choking when it matters against Phoenix.

The front office leadership of this franchise needs an overhaul, and Pop needs to get off his Larry Brownesque "I only want veterans on my team" bent if we're ever going to win another title during the Tim Duncan era.

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Originally Posted by Testing

Spurs fans always wanted an "enforcer" to take a guy out...now that they're not labeled as soft and you got your wish, how many wish they were soft again?

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Don't you see the masterful way the Suns have used media gamesmanship to get an edge in this series? Isn't it apparent that the refs are focusing on the Spurs now?
The rap on the Spurs was that they're too soft...the Suns turned that around, and today we made it worse by playing right into their hands at the end of the game.
Game 5 will be called the Suns way, book it.

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Nonsense, he can be the hero, err zero, by going one on three two straight trips, early in the shot clock I might add, and come up with nothing but helping Phoenix seize control.

Last night illustrated two very succinct points about our Spurs:

1. For all the times Pop gets it right, and for all the criticism of guys like Manu, Finley, and Parker, Pop is just as responsible for our playoff failures as anyone else. His substitutions last night were horrid and contributed to noticeable momentum shifts (particularly in the 2nd and 3rd quarters when we had Phoenix on the ropes).

He should donate his paycheck to charity for drawing up a turnaround fadeaway jumper for Finley out of our last timeout, but then again I don't expect too much for him as far as x's and o's go - the guy just isn't that good at it.

Bowen hasn't been able to check Nash save the last 2-3 minutes of game 3. It's time Pop recognizes this, lets Parker stay in front of Nash with his speed, and sicks Bowen on one of Marion or Bell.

Bowen also needs called out for sagging off Raja to help with Thomas driving on Elson. WTF man?

The sad fact about Pop is that Larry Brown has rubbed off on him in that he has an overreliance upon veterans for the post-season, to the point he has marginalized any youth on the roster.

Which leads to guys like Finley choking away games for us when it matters.

2. We have no one on this team with a killer instinct. This is twice we've let Phoenix back in this series with them on the ropes. We let Dallas pull one out last year.

Duncan was looking like the dagger man here in this series, but then he flips out about some double teams tonight? Double teams? Gee Tim, never seen those before in your 10 year career. :rolleyes What a joke.

Not to delve into the I miss ______ whoever talk, but does anyone think this meltdown happens with Buckets still here?

He should still be a Spur (and captain clutch for us), but management was afraid to pay him 10 mil over 3 years, and instead went with the Larry Brown principle of getting veterans in - i.e., Barry and Finley.

And here we are, a couple of years later, and Buckets kills Dallas in the decisive game in the series while playing with a one legged point guard, meanwhile we get Finley choking when it matters against Phoenix.

The front office leadership of this franchise needs an overhaul, and Pop needs to get off his Larry Brownesque "I only want veterans on my team" bent if we're ever going to win another title during the Tim Duncan era.

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well, if parker goes back on nash who checks barbosa? tony has been guarding him a good amount of the time bowen spends on nash. i don't think anyone else could do quite as good a job on him. what i don't like about bowen on nash is phoenix automatically runs pick and roll and gets duncan to switch on nash, which generally means an easy bucket for amare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Capt Bringdown

The rap on the Spurs was that they're too soft...the Suns turned that around, and today we made it worse by playing right into their hands at the end of the game.
Game 5 will be called the Suns way, book it.

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I really think Spurs will win Game 5. They are mad because of this loss, just like they were mad after Game 2.

The question remains if they can win Game 6 or 7. The meltdown really took away my confidence in this team, and after the choke job against Dallas last year...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aggie Hoopsfan

Nonsense, he can be the hero, err zero, by going one on three two straight trips, early in the shot clock I might add, and come up with nothing but helping Phoenix seize control.

Last night illustrated two very succinct points about our Spurs:

1. For all the times Pop gets it right, and for all the criticism of guys like Manu, Finley, and Parker, Pop is just as responsible for our playoff failures as anyone else. His substitutions last night were horrid and contributed to noticeable momentum shifts (particularly in the 2nd and 3rd quarters when we had Phoenix on the ropes).

He should donate his paycheck to charity for drawing up a turnaround fadeaway jumper for Finley out of our last timeout, but then again I don't expect too much for him as far as x's and o's go - the guy just isn't that good at it.

Bowen hasn't been able to check Nash save the last 2-3 minutes of game 3. It's time Pop recognizes this, lets Parker stay in front of Nash with his speed, and sicks Bowen on one of Marion or Bell.

Bowen also needs called out for sagging off Raja to help with Thomas driving on Elson. WTF man?

The sad fact about Pop is that Larry Brown has rubbed off on him in that he has an overreliance upon veterans for the post-season, to the point he has marginalized any youth on the roster.

Which leads to guys like Finley choking away games for us when it matters.

2. We have no one on this team with a killer instinct. This is twice we've let Phoenix back in this series with them on the ropes. We let Dallas pull one out last year.

Duncan was looking like the dagger man here in this series, but then he flips out about some double teams tonight? Double teams? Gee Tim, never seen those before in your 10 year career. :rolleyes What a joke.

Not to delve into the I miss ______ whoever talk, but does anyone think this meltdown happens with Buckets still here?

He should still be a Spur (and captain clutch for us), but management was afraid to pay him 10 mil over 3 years, and instead went with the Larry Brown principle of getting veterans in - i.e., Barry and Finley.

And here we are, a couple of years later, and Buckets kills Dallas in the decisive game in the series while playing with a one legged point guard, meanwhile we get Finley choking when it matters against Phoenix.

The front office leadership of this franchise needs an overhaul, and Pop needs to get off his Larry Brownesque "I only want veterans on my team" bent if we're ever going to win another title during the Tim Duncan era.

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You should be calling out Ginobili, not Parker :wtf

Parker had two key assists from his drives to the basket which drew defenders in and left Finley for 2 3 pointers. Then in crunchtime he was the only spur who drove to the basket and got to the foul line.

Ginobili meanwhile in that timeframe took 2 bad 3 pointers, tried to isolate and drive to the rim when clearly there was no room to and didn't even try to pass out to a teammate. Poor decision making, which has been a trend with him for a while now. Spurs fan want 2005 manu and expect him to be when in reality he's not even close to that. Parker should be ur primary ball handler and defender on Nash/Barbosa. Why cant coaches see that?

parker did set up finley nicely, but he did make several bad decisions in the last 2 minutes which resulted in poor shots for teammates. he wasn't alone though, tim looked bewildered when the doubles came instead of waiting for them and making his move.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Testing

You should be calling out Ginobili, not Parker :wtf

Parker had two key assists from his drives to the basket which drew defenders in and left Finley for 2 3 pointers. Then in crunchtime he was the only spur who drove to the basket and got to the foul line.

Ginobili meanwhile in that timeframe took 2 bad 3 pointers, tried to isolate and drive to the rim when clearly there was no room to and didn't even try to pass out to a teammate. Poor decision making, which has been a trend with him for a while now. Spurs fan want 2005 manu and expect him to be when in reality he's not even close to that. Parker should be ur primary ball handler and defender on Nash/Barbosa. Why cant coaches see that?

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I call out Parker for his dumb one on three drive that he got stuffed on (and worse, he wasn't even trying to score, just draw a foul), and for taking a jumper early on the next possession (like 16 seconds on the shot clock) when we needed to run some clock.

Those two possessions killed us, and no one else on the Spurs touched the ball on either possession.

Wow, I guess Spurs fans like Ginobili?

Because from what I saw, he's the one that cost you the game. 10 points the entire game, botched layups/TO's settling for 3 pointers, going one on one instead of passing when he should and passing when he should score...he's been doing this 3 games out of 4. When he is supposedly your team's 2nd best player, you should expect slightly more than that....

I'm so pissed that I can't stand that.

I'm gonna kill myself


:hang

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Testing

Wow, I guess Spurs fans like Ginobili?

Because from what I saw, he's the one that cost you the game. 10 points the entire game, botched layups/TO's settling for 3 pointers, going one on one instead of passing when he should and passing when he should score...he's been doing this 3 games out of 4. When he is supposedly your team's 2nd best player, you should expect slightly more than that....

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He's supposed to be third, behind Tony and Tim...

But he's hitting rock bottom now. There's a reason Finley is starting.

Pulling TD after #5 threw the Spurs off track.

duncan looked confused and his teamates say that and choked

I've only got one comment and who will fallow me will fallow


comment:








:pctoss

tmvp: A! :clap

but the only one I disagree with is Tony and Oberto grades.
Oberto was well in marking Amare and drew foul Stoudemire, good job some offense, made Nash´s turnover in critical moment, he played smart basket.
Elson B+ and Oberto B? I think Oberto B+ or A-

Quote:

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Originally Posted by leemajors

tony needs to do a better job running the offense after initial penetration is closed off. he should really be used to it by now. work the ball around and get a shot

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I agree.

Id give Duncan a D. He was the one who guarded Amare over those 4 easy points, I think he could have somehow stopped that.

But I agree, foul trouble shook the rhythm of the big guy.

Elson did nothing spectacular and nothing special either, so he deserved a decent grade.

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Originally Posted by timvp

timvp rant
I have never been as pissed off at, disappointed in, ashamed of or disenchanted by the Spurs as I am right now. That was simply a pitiful performance. Pitiful. The Suns were ready to roll over and die numerous times throughout the game. The Spurs showed absolutely no killer instinct and kept fvcking around until they managed to choke that game off Maverick style. It was just disgusting how many opportunities they had to seal the game. This is the second time this series the Spurs have shown no killer instinct and it could have very well have ended their run. It's just a shame that a team so good hasn't shown the will or the heart needed in two games out of four. Just a shame.
Grade: B+

Tim Duncan
Duncan came down off of his all-world status in Game 4. He was still solid overall, but far from his Game 3 performance. In Game 3 he finished without a turnover. In Game 4 he had six costly turnovers. He was plagued by foul trouble and that took him out of his rhythm completely in the fourth quarter.
Grade: B-


Manu Ginobili
I guess Ginobili was just making a cameo appearance in Game 3. This game, he was back to struggling. The Spurs' second best playoff player can't be going 3-for-14 in huge playoff games. To his credit, he was at times aggressive and tried to fight through his struggles. He just didn't have it.
Grade: C-


Tony Parker
Parker led the team in scoring and assists (23 and 7) but his decision making in the fourth quarter could be called into question. He was trying to take over the game himself offensively, which given the circumstances of Ginobili struggling and Duncan in foul trouble could have been the right idea. But more times than not he led empty drives when the Spurs needed it the most.
Grade: C


Bruce Bowen
At times, Bowen's defense was very good. At other times, it was downright horrid. He made perhaps the worst defensive decision of his career in the third quarter when he left Raja Bell open in the corner to double team on a driving Kurt Thomas. Thomas found Bell with one on the shot clock and Bell buried a three. It was a horrible decision and Pop pulled him right away.
Grade: D+


Francisco Elson
Elson came off the bench and looked a little more comfortable than usual. He had a dunk, rebound and a steal in five minutes.
Grade: B+


Michael Finley
Finley was the only Spur to hit big shots in the fourth quarter. He hit a couple threes in the final stanza to keep the Spurs up. But it wasn't enough to prevent the pending collapse. On the other hand, Finley forced a lot of shots early that were unnecessary. He also missed a big jumper late in the game.
Grade: C+


Brent Barry
Barry played a second consecutive quality game. He led the Spurs in +/- for the second game in a row (+8). He's shown great determination and smarts and should have earned even more minutes in upcoming games. He had nothing to do with this loss.
Grade: A-


Fabricio Oberto
Oberto got his first start of the playoffs and played decent. He had some good moments and some crafty play. His defense wasn't spectacular, but he did an okay job on that end of the court. It was a pretty steady game from Oberto.
Grade: B


Robert Horry
Horry led the Spurs in the first half with four assists. He was being his typical smart self ... until he leveled Steve Nash at the end of the game. That was a horribly classless play that was uncalled for. That's not what the Spurs are about.
Grade: F


Jacque Vaughn
Vaughn hit his first two jumpers. That probably turned out to be a bad thing for the Spurs. It made Vaughn more aggressive and an aggressive Vaughn is a bad Vaughn. He's just not talented enough to do anything other than bring up the ball and pass it to someone else in the playoffs.
Grade: C


Pop
Horrible. Even if the Spurs won this game, it would have still been a horribly coached game by Pop. The magic touch he seemed to have in Game 3 was gone in Game 4. He would put Vaughn in the game at the exact wrong times and that would lead to runs by the Suns. But my major beefs with Pop come in the fourth quarter. When Duncan picks up his fifth foul, no way you sit him as long as Pop sat him. By doing so, Pop let the Suns get right back in the game and took Duncan out of any rhythm he might have had. What Pop should have done is put Duncan in the game and tell him to play his regular style. If he fouls out, he fouls out. You don't sit him until it's too late to regain momentum. On top of that, Pop had some horrid offensive ideas in the fourth. Calling plays for Finley and Ginobili late in the fourth? Did he forget that Duncan was on the court? Did he forget that Ginobili had been struggling all night? The cherry on top was wasting all his timeouts ... especially the last one. When you go down three with 30 something seconds to go and you only have one timeout, you NEVER take it at that point. You save that timeout until you need it the most. Taking the timeout at the point that they did essentially ended the game. In about ever way a coach can F up, Pop F'ed up.
Grade: F

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Pretty dead on except for Ginobili. If the grade is supposed to be based on his value to the team as a reflection of his talent and abilities, then this C- was not even close to a low average game for MANU. This game was a D- or F because so much rode on his shoulders at times and he failed to deliver. shooting 3-14 is a disaster far below his average value.

I still love the guy, but this was a game where he let us down.

After rewatching the game, I'm just stunned at the bad decisions Manu made and his overall poor play. This is a guy who I viewed as a playoff warrior who was good as anyone in the league in fourth quarters of playoffs game.

He missed some wide, wide open teammates in the fourth quarter. When he got blocked and Duncan saved him by putting it back in, he literally had the whole team wide open. He was shooting when he should have passed and passing when he should have shot. Manu is horribly out of rhythm and is playing worse than I've ever seen him play.

His biggest mistake that has gone unnoticed by Spurs fans was the play where Duncan got his fifth foul. Manu didn't let Duncan get set for the pick before starting his driving. That is the cardinal sin of pick-and-rolls -- especially if your big man is in foul trouble. Duncan was still moving as Ginobili started his drive and that resulted in an offensive foul on Duncan that was 100% Ginobili's fault. A guard can NEVER hang his bigman out to dry like that in that situation.

I'm literally stunned at this point.

Parker wasn't exactly Magic Johnson himself but he was taking good shots. Pop told him specifically to keep attacking and not worry about wasting time. He got some good shots, made some good passes and hit some big free throws. He still didn't play that well in the fourth but comparatively speaking, he wasn't that bad.

That game made me sick :pctoss

is manu over the playoffs from last year with that stupid foul against mavs
does manu have his playoff confidence back?

the answer has to be no

i have never seen a layup rest on the back of the rim like tony's did. sorry, didn't know where to post this but it doesn't deserve a thread. i just got a bad feeling when it hung up there for 5 seconds. we'll really see what this team is made of tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timvp

That game made me sick :pctoss

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Pretty much all that needs to be said... this game was fucking painful for Spurs fans because of how great we looked for 3 quarters... and then pissed it all away...

Quote:

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After rewatching the game, I'm just stunned at the bad decisions Manu made and his overall poor play. This is a guy who I viewed as a playoff warrior who was good as anyone in the league in fourth quarters of playoffs game.

He missed some wide, wide open teammates in the fourth quarter. When he got blocked and Duncan saved him by putting it back in, he literally had the whole team wide open. He was shooting when he should have passed and passing when he should have shot. Manu is horribly out of rhythm and is playing worse than I've ever seen him play.

His biggest mistake that has gone unnoticed by Spurs fans was the play where Duncan got his fifth foul. Manu didn't let Duncan get set for the pick before starting his driving. That is the cardinal sin of pick-and-rolls -- especially if your big man is in foul trouble. Duncan was still moving as Ginobili started his drive and that resulted in an offensive foul on Duncan that was 100% Ginobili's fault. A guard can NEVER hang his bigman out to dry like that in that situation.

I'm literally stunned at this point.

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I stood stunned for the last 3 minutes of the game.

I couldn't believe what I was watching.

It was the Dallas game in January all over again.

biggest mistake of this series: putting bowen on nash and not Marion. Here's why.

Now he's guarding Nash and not doing well. they should switch him back on marion if they're smart, he;ll get tired on offensr running around bowen's shadow to really do a good job defensively on parker....

Testing - good observation "for a LA Fan!"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Testing

biggest mistake of this series: putting bowen on nash and not Marion. Here's why.

Now he's guarding Nash and not doing well. they should switch him back on marion if they're smart, he;ll get tired on offensr running around bowen's shadow to really do a good job defensively on parker....

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i don't think it's a bad idea in spots to change coverage on nash, but i don't think it should be exclusively bowen in the 4th again. i would rather take my chances with bruce denying penetration to barbosa at this point since they pick and roll duncan/bowen and amare/nash to death in the 4th. stopping it is not our forte at this point.

Pop needs to find a way to rest TP that doesn't involve J Vaughn leaving the bench.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Pop needs to find a way to rest TP that doesn't involve J Vaughn leaving the bench.

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Its desperation time. I say the big 3 all play 40+ minutes game 5....its the only way for us to regain control of this series.

Desperation time at 2-2? The series just started.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Pop needs to find a way to rest TP that doesn't involve J Vaughn leaving the bench.

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the answer has been there all along- Brent Barry

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marcus Bryant

Desperation time at 2-2? The series just started.

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As long as no one gets suspended, then this series has definitely just begun. :toast

You forgot to mention the grade for your fans, a lot of whom were fleeing for the exits with about seven seconds to go and the Spurs down only six with the ball!

F-

Just unbelieveably pathetic from a fanbase that has experienced multiple championships, and shows that the NBA is great at pricing out real fans.

I agree with you 100%, TIMVP. Sometimes I feel like Pop needs to be replaced with a younger coach that is wittier and hungrier. Pop has gotten fat 'n happy with the Spurs organization.

seriously for the love of god STOP PLAYING GINOBILI he's putting everything we ever thought about him to shame and is stabbing us in the back every play he's on the floor


Even the threes he took and made were bad shots...
Then Pop goes and calls for a ginboili/duncan pick and roll when the parker/duncan pick and roll was giving Duncan incredibly easy shots (unfortunately he turned the ball over all three times it worked in the 4th)

Duncan's early 4th quarter turnovers, Ginobili being the biggest loser i've seen in silver n black, and Pop's decisions all had a horribly additive effect htat left our offense completely out of rhtyhm in the entire 4th quarter. The suns had TWO GOOD DEFENSIVE POSSESSIONS all game, and it was when Duncan came back in the fourth....they double teamed duncan lightning fast which led to a horrible shot cuz duncan was stunned, then the very next possession they hesitated on the double team and played him straight up which again confused duncan and we got no points.

Other than that we totally shot ourselves in the foot.

I think this one's on Pop above anyone else.

Why the Spurs were shooting jumpers when D'Antoni went super-small is mind-boggling. Why they didn't go after Amare when he came back in with 5 fouls the way the Suns went at Duncan is astonishing. The timeouts, as Timvp mentioned, I think actually were benefitting the Suns more than the Spurs. The Suns were able to switch Amare and KT on the O and the D and set their plays. The Spurs got lackadaisacal and did nothing but jumpshoot themselves out of the 4th quarter.

Pop got severely outcoached by D'Antoni, which takes some effort on Pop's part I would think.

Pop deserves alot of blame but not nearly as much as Ginobili. If your coach and leader makes the best player sit out during crucial 4th quarter minutes, who's going to take over? Parker at least tried, he made a couple layups i think. What the hell is Ginobili even doing on the floor?

It's seriously like the guy woke up and realized he's 35 years old and can't explode to the basket anymore, and its sickening to watch.

god damnit i hate argentina

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timvp

Oh and I'm sick of stupid azz Spurs fans getting overconfident after every win. Somehow this season, it's like the Spurs take on the thought process of their fans.

When the fans are acting over confident and start looking ahead, the Spurs this season ALWAYS have a letdown. The crowd sucked at the game. Spurs fans have sucked in general showing no respect for the Suns. This Suns are done, Suns are wilting, Suns are soft crap manages to seep into the Spurs themselves and they play like with no heart like we saw.

:pctoss

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Agreed, and it shits me to tears too. The number of people calling the series over in the third quarter in the game thread was ridiculous, and I called them out for it. These people do not understand basketball, which is a game of runs, and a team as good as the Suns will always make a fourth quarter run, so you'd better be ready for it.

Also, the grades were spot on.

I'm not angry about it although I was yesterday. Now I just feel like 2001, dejected. :depressed

This team had better want it next game or the season is over, and what a horrible lost chance at a championship that would be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LaMarcus Bryant

Duncan's early 4th quarter turnovers, Ginobili being the biggest loser i've seen in silver n black, and Pop's decisions all had a horribly additive effect htat left our offense completely out of rhtyhm in the entire 4th quarter. The suns had TWO GOOD DEFENSIVE POSSESSIONS all game, and it was when Duncan came back in the fourth....they double teamed duncan lightning fast which led to a horrible shot cuz duncan was stunned, then the very next possession they hesitated on the double team and played him straight up which again confused duncan and we got no points.

Other than that we totally shot ourselves in the foot.

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Exactly. :tu

As for "hating Argentina", that's just lame. :rolleyes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by timvp

Oh and I'm sick of stupid azz Spurs fans getting overconfident after every win. Somehow this season, it's like the Spurs take on the thought process of their fans.

When the fans are acting over confident and start looking ahead, the Spurs this season ALWAYS have a letdown. The crowd sucked at the game. Spurs fans have sucked in general showing no respect for the Suns. This Suns are done, Suns are wilting, Suns are soft crap manages to seep into the Spurs themselves and they play like with no heart like we saw.

:pctoss

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:lol Angry much? just kidding. I just think it's funny because I'm still on the first page of your grades, and already I've read about 5 rants from you!
I agree though. I'm still pretty upset about last night. It was completely unnecessary!

And, I have to agree that the crowd sucks so bad! Something needs to be done in the worst way :(

Does Horry get an A now?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LaMarcus Bryant

god damnit i hate argentina

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:lol

You're like the Liberal Longhorn aggie marriot hating Spurfan Ann Coulter with the epic hyperbole.

Quote:

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It's seriously like the guy woke up and realized he's 35 years old and can't explode to the basket anymore, and its sickening to watch.

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Except, hes not 35.

Thats whats sickening.